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thecolorsblend2

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8-May-2008
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8-May-2008
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Post
#319346
Topic
Crystall Skull has GL's fingerprints all over it
Time
Data is always at risk for being lost or damaged beyond repair, whether it's physical or digital media. That being said, ROTS will never have to be remastered -- at least not in the same sense that, say, the Godfather has been.

This will only become truer as storage drive capacity expands beyond what it is today. The expense and logistics of terrabytes of storage is only an obstacle right now. It's only going to become easier, cheaper and more efficient from here on in.
Post
#319335
Topic
Crystall Skull has GL's fingerprints all over it
Time
I agree that cgi takes a lot of finessing to make it look real, for example gollum in lord of the rings feels less fake than jar jar, even though they are both cgi rendered. too bad Peter Jackson succeded in making him rediculously annoying almost as bad as jar jar. He is more a sympathetic character in the books.

That's a kinda strange argument. The bulk of Jar Jar's animation would've been done in 1998. A substantial amount of Gollum was animated in 2001 and 2002. LIGHT YEARS in CG advancements had taken place in the interim. Plus, Jackson got pointers from Lucas and McCallum.

for me the logical conclusion of the trajectory Jackson set up was some kind of redemption, even if he still killed himself, because for most of Jackson's Return of the King Gollum just kind of casts aside all the wonderful conflict in the previous film and becomes bad

I've not read the books (something about them being too damn boring) but I dig the way Gollum's arc plays out in the films. He goes from being conflicted about helping Frodo and Sam reach Mordor but ultimately Smeagol subsumes the Gollum persona and there's a taste of redemption there... which is lost when Frodo appears to turn on him when they're all detained by Faramir. Smeagol was so close to redemption but he ultimately lost his battle and his actions in ROTK are the aftermath of all that. I dug that aspect of LOTR even if I don't like that trilogy over all.

Regarding all this CGI hooplah, I think models and such appear more convincing because the nature of their use brings a kinda realistic look to it by default. The effects in the prequels (even model shots and such) seem to be more biased towards creating eye candy as opposed to shooting for "realism"... and in that sense, for as impressive as the Death Star passover in ANH remains to this day, it was clearly intended to be eye candy as best as could be created in 1976. In fact, a lot of ANH effects fall into that eye candy category, imho.

There's just too much of that, and too much interaction between them, for CG to come off as fully 100% indistinguishable from reality

I don't think people are as perceptive about this as some of you guys do. I've heard critics whine about "too much CG" in specific reference to prequel effects shots that unquestionably were based upon models. On top of that, every single shot in AOTC and ROTS have some sort of effect or digital gimmick and I defy any of you to identify the edit in every single shot. As you guys say, CGI has certain limitations... I just don't think it's as limited as all of you seem to say.
Post
#318829
Topic
The Secret History of Star Wars
Time
Holy crap, I read this "book" ages ago and loved every bit of it but I never knew zombie was the guy behind it! Great work, man!

I dig the hell out of the prequels but even I have to admit that the trilogy would've gone smoother had Lucas drafted scripts (or at least outlines) for all three films back in 1994 rather than tackling each film as it's own independent entity.
Post
#318561
Topic
Oh yeah!!! Lucas...clueless as ever.
Time
I think it can be assumed that there are no guard rails on the carbon freeze chamber because the controls are manually operated

I wasn't referring to the fall Luke took. I meant the one Vader took when Luke knocked his ass off the platform during the lightsaber duel. You'd have thought there'd be a guard rail there... except the script required there not be one. So I go with it.

As far as blasters go, apparently you didn't pay attention when reading Shadows of the Empire

Oh I did, it's just that it's not a movie. If it ain't in the movies, I won't likely accept it.

That lovely book has been responsible for more bullshit explanations that we don't need than anything

Be that as it may, I'm just saying it's probably the best of the EU books and has the most "Star Wars" feel to me.
Post
#318510
Topic
Oh yeah!!! Lucas...clueless as ever.
Time
The force field/radiation scanner thing never really bothered me. It's clear what the dramatic purpose was for; the in-universe explanation doesn't trouble me. It's esoteric high tech something-or-other that Naboo engineers obviously realized they needed in that corridor. It fits with the mise en scene established in other sections of the generator complex so I buy it. Don't take this as sarcasm or a flame, but if the lack of explanation is upsetting, I've got no argument for you. The fact that we're never told why ESB's carbon freezing chamber is raised so high up off the ground (aside from the production designer's requirements) or why the edges don't have guard rails (aside from dramatic license required by the script) never bothered me.

It's like the power coupling for podracer engines or visible beams of light coming from blasters. They work the way Lucas says they work because he says they work that way.

This is why I'm in the EU=Canon crowd. The other writers think through the things GL tends to ignore.

EU=crapola. Droid Jedi, non-stop and unnecessary movie references and other junk. The only EU I've ever read that *felt* like Star Wars was Shadows of the Empire (which deserves a CG-animated movie) as well as the Han Solo and Thrawn trilogies (and even those were hit and miss). There's some okay stuff out there but most of it is dreck.
Post
#318201
Topic
Oh yeah!!! Lucas...clueless as ever.
Time
Unfortunately, a lot of the elements you mention don't work either because the message is being delivered in an extremely poor fashion or it wasn't the director's intention (probably a little of both).

Lucas doesn't put the movie on pause and scream his point but he's not terribly subtle about it. The point I was trying to make is that the CGI complements the story being told about a government that appears to be Utopia is actually so self-absorbed that they've long since abandoned everything but the pretense of caring about anybody those who can buy political influence (ie, a gigantic corporation such as the Trade Federation having Senators). On that note...

Nobodies like Anakin because he's "the chosen one". How can anyone be told that at the age of 10 and then possibly be expected to keep their powers in check? Look at Akira for a perfect example. Teenager attains godly powers and ends up destroying half of Tokyo in the process of ascending. And as far as Jar Jar being an exile is concerned, he was given a pretty high position by the Queen herself. He was also the one person that wanted to give Palpatine full control. If anyone is to blame for Palpatine's rise though, it's Amidala with her no confidence vote in TPM.

I meant they were both roundly ignored in TPM. They obviously found some level of acceptance in subsequent films... although that only came about because their Jedi or Naboo leaders disobeyed what the Jedi Council and the Senate had declared the partyline. Nobody in the Senate (aside from Zod the Limey) cared about the Naboo invasion or the slaughter of Republic citizens at the hands of a rogue corporation's private army. As for the Jedi Council, they didn't give a shit that Tatooine is a haven for slavery or that Naboo was essentially being held hostage so that the Federation could have a fatter bottomline this quarter.

It's cool if you don't dig the PT. A lot of people don't. And again, I'm not trying to hijack this thread but it amazes me that (no offense to you or any other member) some people can't see the obvious here.

But all that's way OT.

Agreed.

I think the point is that a lot of things were done very unnecessarily. Look at the "Super Mario" chase through the factory in AOTC. What was that all about?

It's hard to believe that some sort of fight wouldn't take place when a Republic senator and the apprentice of a Jedi the Separatists had just captured wander in to the main production facility of said Separatists war machine.

If we hold the OT to your same principle, I'd nominate the elimination of the Falcon vs. TIE fighter dog fight after Luke and co. escape from the Death Star. I always found it hard to believe that the Imperials really would've had enough time to scramble an entire squad of TIE fighters to intercept the escaping Falcon before it could make it to hyperspace. It seems like an excuse for another thrilling escape and a space battle, and little else. The same thing applies to the Falcon/space slug thing in ESB. That sequence doesn't tie directly in to the Rebels being pursued by the Empire so why have it? You could drop both sequences from the film without missing too much!

Of course, both sequences rock and nobody in their right mind would seriously suggest they don't belong in their respective movies. I'm just making a point here.

The SW films are, at the end of the day, adventure movies so you have to have action spectacles like that. Sometimes they're indespinsable to the plot, sometimes they aren't but they're fun... and that's the whole point.
Post
#318100
Topic
Oh yeah!!! Lucas...clueless as ever.
Time
I realize the purpose of this thread and I don't want to turn it into a PT apologetics thread but I gotta comment on some of this.

I don't think anyone thinks CGI is bad, but there is a point where it overwhelms the movie
(snip)
Where CGI goes wrong for me, is when it overwhelms the story & characters, and it becomes a big 'look how cool I can make this movie look' fest. You look at a movie like TPM, you have real locations like Tatooine, then you goto CGI environments like Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau, Mustafar, and just don't hold up as well compared to OT enviroments like Hoth and Endor.

I can understand that, but it seems to me that the prequel trilogy used it in a different way than a lot of action movies did. It was used as The Big Moment in a lot of movies in the past but TPM employed it in a way to establish (and embellish) a particular environment. A good example is Coruscant in TPM. It gives all the appearances of being the pinnacle of civilization and a place of hope for the lost and disenfranchised... which marks the contrast I think Lucas was shooting for with the rotting corruption that had spread so far in the Republic with only the powerful and wealthy voices being heard (even by the Jedi, ensconced as they were in their literal ivory tower), while "inconsequential" concerns from the likes of Queen Amidala being ignored, and nobodies like Anakin (a slave) and Jar Jar (an exile) being shut out completely.

These points aren't made exclusively by the technology but they're indispensable in bringing that point across by juxtaposing the expectation and (false) hope of Coruscant's image against the bureaucratic inefficiency created by the powermongers and the elite.

As for Mustafar and Geonosis (and maybe some of the others you mentioned), they included at least a few model shots embellished by CG trickery.

Really? you've never been fooled by a special effect?

Everyone's fooled sometimes. The point isn't about that, it's about the fact that some shots are blantantly effects shots. Whether it's with models and wires or with CGI, in short order you get to at least a few shots that scream "fake". This is true in the OT (with blue screens still somewhat visible in ROTJ's speeder bike chase) or the PT (Obi-Wan's eyeline with Jar Jar is off a few times in TPM). It doesn't ruin the moment for me, it just reminds me that I'm watching a film with a lot of effects. No big deal.
Post
#318060
Topic
Oh yeah!!! Lucas...clueless as ever.
Time
I'm a saga fan. Many of you aren't so I won't bother debating the (imho) relative merits of the PT. What I will say is that Speilberg and Ford are collaborators in this film. Lucas crafted the basic story, sure, but his role is exec producer. Koepp wrote the screenplay (and considering the dreck that was the first Spidey film, that's not an upgrade in my opinion), Speilberg is the director and Ford is more than just the leading man. There are plenty of chefs brewing this stew.

And I think some of you have some really screwy ideas about CGI. It's a tool to achieve a certain illusion, same as any other from the filmmaking trade. If it's a choice between something looking exactly the way the director wants via CGI or else a hackjob, bastardized shadow of how he originally envisioned, I'll take CGI everytime.

Esp since all effects (rubber masks, miniatures, CGI, whatever) all look fake to me anyway so why split hairs over which looks faker?
Post
#317996
Topic
Oh yeah!!! Lucas...clueless as ever.
Time
I haven’t even told Steven or Harrison this," he said. "But I have an idea to make Shia [LeBeouf] the lead character next time and have Harrison [Ford] come back like Sean Connery did in the last movie. I can see it working out.

That's actually been my worst nightmare for the Indie franchise. Continue it with Harrison or else drop it but don't let some other character take over.
Post
#317938
Topic
blowing up things SW style
Time
There were plenty of real elements used in the PT, Lucas just doesn't want to admit it, so all the "making of" stuff focuses on the digital work. There's a convention I go to every year and for several years one of the guests was Carol Bauman from ILM. She showed workshop pics of ILM crew working on models of Coruscant buildings and various craft from TPM and AOTC (ROTS was still in production at the time).

Various digital FX animators, ILM and otherwise, have all gone on record as saying that natural elements - water, smoke, fire, rock formations, etc. - still take a lot of work to generate in CG and look convincing, so they have to resort to the old ways for those elements, at least for now.


No embedded images allowed, I see.

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/01.jpg
Naboo fighter model being 'sploded

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/02.jpg
No footage of them performing this trick. Same basic technique used in AOTC.

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/03.jpg
Miniature podracer hangar

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/04.jpg
Miniature Theed plaza

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/05.jpg
Podracer props

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/06.jpg
Dudes in masks

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/07.jpg
Animatronics

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/08.jpg
Speilberg and Lucas discussing the pro's and con's of battle droids vs. stormtroopers beside a battle droid prop.

http://www.blissnet.org/ot.c/09.jpg
Yeah yeah yeah, but what you might not have known is that some shots in the film utilize a guy in the suit. They're quick but they're in the movie if you look for them. For example, when you see Jar Jar's hand as he tries to fish the wrench out of Anakin's racer engine, that's his "real" hand.
Post
#317847
Topic
State of the Trilogy/ annual SW depression
Time
I realize I'm a day late and a buck short on this discussion, but here goes.

But the OT is so powerful, the majority of people will 'put up' with the SE just to have them on DVD

Some people might but I think the majority of people (ie, Joe Sixpack) would not care which version they get.

Even so, given George's comments on the matter, I wouldn't by any means rule out an eventual real release of the trilogy. When? Your guess is as good as anybody's. If it were coming this year (a stupid choice with the 30th being last year and Indy 4 this year), we would've heard by now, I'd imagine.

As for HD, I can only see a Blu-Ray SE release happening in the next two years if the OOT is included. Lucas, rather obviously, doesn't have faith in the format so I'd imagine he'd want to package in the OOT as "extras" again to make the Blu-Ray thing a killer-app.

If the release happens beyond that window, when Blu-Ray's more established (and until Joe Sixpack has one, it's just a niche), which I estimate to be about two years away, then there'd be no incentive to include the OOT to spike up sales since the format would then be the growing market standard. Sales are assured anyway, right, so why bother?

Incidentally, George's remark about "it'll all come out in the end" was about learning whether people prefer the SE vs. the OOT. Ergo what I think he meant was "the truth will come out". I'd love to be wrong though.
Post
#317783
Topic
Originals: A New Preference
Time
^ Agreed. I'm not hip to most fanedits for that very reason. They've done phenomenal work, don't get me wrong, I just don't see much of a point.

The 6-track is obviously the superior format, and it wouldn't take much to transfer the original elements to a 5.1 mix while remaining true to the opening day

I thought they were all released in mono. And also since most theaters (at least at first) likely projected the film with a mono mix, that was Burtt and Lucas' preferred soundtrack since that was the one they invested the most time in.

Learn something new every day, I guess. I'll revise my sig accordingly.
Post
#317477
Topic
Originals: A New Preference
Time
I remember the shot where the X-wings take off--I had always loved the SE revision of the exterior shot of them taking off from Yavin because the original version was so poor. But then I got it. Somehow, that low-tech shot of animated white streaks racing to the sky worked

It's funny you should say that. That's pretty much the shot that convinced me too. Not Han/Greedo, not the Jabba thing, not Episode III-era ghostly Anakin. That quick shot of the ships taking off is just PERFECT in it's imperfection. I too preferred the '97 version for a while but when I watched the original the other night, the shot was just *functional*. It didn't have obnoxious ships claustrophobically crowding the camera and slowly crossing the frame, as if to say "look! We've made it BETTER! See all the detail? See the pilot in the cockpit scratching his... knee? So much BETTER!" The original shot, while simplistic, carried the pace and urgency of the Death Star attack quite nicely without a lot of obnoxious CG bullshit to distract from everything.

Obviously, not every single revision Lucas made sucks (I'd never say that) but the originals just seem better to me now than the '04 versions.

I am asking for them to dig up those interpositives or WHATEVER their best film elements are of the OOT and transfer them to video

I'm no expert on this stuff but I'd bet that the laserdisc masters from the GOUT could've been spiffed up a little bit and released in anamorphic format without too much trouble. A remastering job would be even better but at a minimum I'd accept anamorphic DVD's from those masters.
Post
#317399
Topic
Originals: A New Preference
Time
I've bagged on you guys for years. YEARS. I love the whole saga (yes, including the prequels) and my preferences for the OT veered to the edited versions. I thought you guys were making a big deal out of, fundamentally, nothing really.

But I watched the original ANH and ESB the other night and I gotta tell ya... somehow they just seemed BETTER to me. The models, Clive Revill's voice, the original matte paintings, the monkeywoman, it all just rocked my socks. It also blows my mind what ILM was able to pull off with such limited resources, something that gets lost in the CGI brouhaha of the '97/'04 editions.

That's not saying the SE flicks don't have their moments (the expanded approach to Cloud City in ESB, for one) but if it has to be one or the other, for the first time I'd probably stick with the originals.

Every Vaseline blob under Luke's speeder, every jacked up matte line, every translucent box around the space ships, every flickering lightsaber, every effect in the originals tells a story -- even if unintentionally so.

I want that story preserved.