sunday256

White wall used as a screen - size is 136" (10'3" W x 4'11" H) - flat white painted wall with black trim.
Essential Home Home Theater Seating Collection.
Sanyo PLV-1080HD Projector.
Infinity speakers: 2 x RS-2 front left and right, 1 x CC-1 center, 4 x QPS-1
Aiwa TS-W150 Sub-woofer.
Sony STR-DG820 7.1 Digital Audio/Video Control Center.
Sony BDP-S350 Blu-ray player.
Sony SLV-720HF VHS Player.
Black out rollar shade to cover french doors.
Logitech Harmony 980 Remote Control.
XBOX 360 with Kinect sensor

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?u=79110

As crazy at this sounds, I kind of enjoyed Princess Leia and her singing. LOL.

Skot, long time reader of the thread but first time poster. Although a lot of people can't stand the Holiday Special I try to make it a point to watch it every few years if I can get the nerve to do it. LOL.   It's hard in places I agree, but I enjoy it enough to keep coming back here to see what's up.

Thanks for all the work you've put in over the years. Hopefully you're hard work will usher in a point where we might see it officially released one of these days (despite how poorly most people receive it).

I'm a little late to the party on the new extras. What all has surfaced in that 153 minutes? Any specifics?

Harmy said:

That is of course possible. I even considered calling it the Technicolor edition for a while, since it reflects the IB Tech colourtiming which may have been slightly different than the Eastman prints.

As to the colour of the sky - that's the thing - I started from the BD, so I couldn't make everything appear exactly as it does on the IB Print, all I could hope for was a close approximation - in this case, everything's almost the same, as you say, except for the sky. Although I'm only seeing a very slight blue/gray cast in the sky in that photo.

I'll agree...slight blue/gray...that's close enough to how I see this photo. I just worded it differently. But I do see enough of a difference in the sky color for this one screenshot mkv vs IB print. No where near the difference from earlier in the scene when Kenobi makes the Krayt-call and at the end of the scene when they pick up 3-PO. The blue sky is way obvious in those shots. It's quite likely that those cells look better because it was  brighter and less cloudy during those takes. Less white noise from having to make camera corrections perhaps.  I really notice the white noise on the long shot of R2 (after Ben wakes Luke up and R2 starts moving closer to the screen - that initial long shot) and then on Luke's subsequent closeups. It's when I start adding a gamma correction (taking it from 1.0 down between .6-.8 in my ATI settings) that R2 and Luke begin to look better with less visible white noise.

YanniD said:

sunday256 said:

Thanks for that screenshot! I'm fairly certain there's some difference in color from the IB print to my 2nd screenshot (from Harmy's MKV) below from my home monitor.

IB Print

 

Be aware that this is a photo taken by a camera of a projection of an IB Technicolor print and may have limitations in how well it represents the actual print:  there will be influences from the camera white balance, etc as well as the projector.

I see these photos as being most useful in determining the overall colour balance across the movie, before Lucas started tweaking various scenes, and less useful for absolute brightness and contrast.

It is a huge shame that a technicolor print is not permitted to be released to the public to be scanned, duplicated and distributed.

I checked my MKV screenshot against this same image and they weren't too far off.  Harmy's MKV had a little more red in the robe. Less green. And this image has some mild blue in the sky, but all I saw in the MKV was white/gray as I anticipated. The rock color and contrast...they looked exactly the same in both images.

Since I live in DC and knew about that Baltimore screening, I'm beginning to wish I had gone just so I could have seen this scene. I wonder if there was a flaw in the IB print somehow.

bilditup1 said:

sunday256 said:

delusions_of_grandeur said:

bilditup1 said:

finally got to watch this today, for the third time, in proper fashion (51" plasma, 5.1). my friends, this thing not only has to been *seen* to be believed...you've gotta hear it, too. I need to get a better sub, I've discovered.

^^THIS^^

As good as this looks on a laptop screen, there's really no substitute for watching it on a 50"+ screen.  I am green with envy hearing about people projecting this on screens over 100". 

For me, it's 120". A pure white wall with borders that I made. Looks awesome. Photos here: http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=keithabbott

That is awesome. I have an old Lumenlab projector (1.0) lying around that I used to project at around those sizes (in college) but the image quality is really not that great and anyway I don't really have a wall to project it onto anymore.

Thanks.  I got my Sanyo 1080p projector at BB pretty cheap. It's a lot cheaper investment than getting a TV let me tell you. You don't have to deal with the weight and giant stand, and replacing a projector is easy. They look better than you'd think. And my son and I play XBOX on the wall at 136" (I keep thinking it's 120" for some reason)! HOW FRICKING COOL IS THAT? LOL. Anyhow, so yeah...when I watched Harmy's version in the downstairs theater it looked amazing. It was just a bit choppy streaming as an MKV through a Wireless-G router. I probably need to download the AVCHD when it's done.

Don't worry...you'll have a wall one day. :)

Harmy said:

Oh and I just wanted to add something to that Obi-Wan scene: Let me explain, that I would have aesthetically preferred the scene the way it was on the last WP, so it was an internal struggle for me and in the end I decided to follow the reference as closely as possible, instead of my personal preference.

@Sunday: Wow! That's exactly what I want for my home one day, except for all the prequel junk, I'd replace that with some OT awesomeness ;-)

I likely would have preferred the same thing Harmy. LOL. I still think something is amiss though with it being as bright as it is in spots. The IB print may look that way, but how it appears in the dark...projected on a huge white screen has some effect as to how it looks to the viewer. When you change the context of how it's being viewed today, I dunno. But not all of that scene is entirely overly bright though. But my eyes definitely aren't playing tricks on me. I still have 20-20 after all these years and I see colors perfectly. I've got a great visual memory and when I first watched that scene it screemed blinding bright to me. I certainly would have remembered that. But what's done is done. If you make a 3rd pass, maybe you'll go with your gut the next time. LOL. :)

As for the prequel stuff in my home theater, I enjoy the prequels as I do the OT. And there are things about both trilogies that get under my skin. The trick I've found though is to just not worry about it. Take it for the context it's in. I loved the OT the minute I saw it when I was a kid just like I loved the Avengers movie the minute I saw it earlier this year. Give me 20 more years and I'll find more to nitpick about both. LOL. Age has a lot to do with it. When you reach 43 years old, look as good you will not. LOL.

delusions_of_grandeur said:

bilditup1 said:

finally got to watch this today, for the third time, in proper fashion (51" plasma, 5.1). my friends, this thing not only has to been *seen* to be believed...you've gotta hear it, too. I need to get a better sub, I've discovered.

^^THIS^^

As good as this looks on a laptop screen, there's really no substitute for watching it on a 50"+ screen.  I am green with envy hearing about people projecting this on screens over 100". 

For me, it's 120". A pure white wall with borders that I made. Looks awesome. Photos here: http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=keithabbott

frank678 said:

apologies for posting misinformation! also i shouldnt really comment on this subject not having watched the finished scene, i just remembered that still from the senator screening.

there is something off about this sequence for me like they shot it with a really delicate contrast level and its been skewed slightly ever since. anyway i can tell this one has been done to death, so i'll bow out here

And here I thought that OT.com folks only complained about the Prequels! Maybe I'm just in the wrong thread. LOL.

Harmy said:

@frank678: There were no LPP prints in '77, it was made in the 80s, probably for TV broadcast transfers, so it's very well likely its colourtiming could be different and even intentionally altered for telecine.

And don't you think it would be a bit weird that just exactly this scene from first frame of its first sot to last frame of last shot would be faded on the IB print?

Also, like I said, this stuff has already been discussed to death - it has been previously stated that due to the nature of the dye process, it's quite possible that the tech prints had slightly different colourtiming in some places than even '77 Eastman prints. But since all the surviving Eastman prints are faded, we may never know, so it's safer to adjust the colours to a print that we know looks like it did in 77.

@Sunday: Sorry if I've been a bit cross, you can imagine I'm a bit on edge :-) Yes, I did still leave it like that in my last WP and then I decided to change it in the end. That "adjusted" screenshot is really old and comes from before I had the reference scans.

 Thank you thank you thank you. That's a major part of what I was trying to determine in all my comments thus far. :) So at least I know it's not way off then. So would you say my screengrab represents the same image (brightness/colors) you're seeing on your end? or is it maybe slightly brighter? Seeing your screencapture of that same image today would help me tremendously.

For if it's exactly the same, then I will forgo watching the MKV on the computer and stick to streaming it to my 1080p projector to view on my 120" screen. The brightness wasn't as distracting as it was on my computer monitor that's for sure. But if it's slightly off, I can adjust my computer video or monitor settings accordingly which will give me another option.

Harmy said:

@sunday256: Condescending much?

Anyway, this is not about me not being able to take constructive criticism, this is about starting pointless lengthy discussions about things that have already been discussed to death and I'm simply tired of that conversation and answering the same questions for the umphteenth time.

I'm glad someone posted this picture, I forgot it was there. It is much closer to my references, though still a bit darker - this can be caused by various things ranging from the brightness of the projection bulb to the settings of the camera it was taken with). And sorry, Sunday256, but what you remember seeing in the cinema 35 years ago is quite irrelevant to the objective facts. Some people swear to remember having seen Luke throw the grappling hook twice in '77... What definitelly is relevant however, is a professional scan of frames from a perfectly preserved print that was actually made in '77 - actually  it is the most relevant evidence to date - and that's what I used as a reference to time that scene.

Also, when you post screenshots from your monitor, if my or anyone else's monitor is calibrated differently from yours, the screenshots will of course display differently than they do on your monitor.

Points taken. And apologies if you feel that I've been condescending. That's not my intent.

The most relevant comment for me to respond to however is the last. That's exactly what I'm asking you to comment on. The "adjusted image" that you posted back in January...

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/406/ben21.png

does not match the screen capture that took from your MKV that I posted here...

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/4266/examplemz.png

Either your "adjusted" image matches what you currently have on your final workprint now, or you scrapped that idea and went a different direction. That's what I'd like to know. If you can screengrab that same image from your final workprint, I'll then know if what you intended is what I'm seeing.

It's really as simple as that. If that adjust image is correct, and that's what you're seeing on the final print then my video settings and monitor are way off.

frank678 said:

@sunday256

my theory is when the ib technicolor print (or as one theory goes this 1 of the 100 technicolor prints made from the original negative)  was made this scene had already faded on the negative and so the odd look of this scene is captured 'as is' = colour faded. 

The whole thing is...the images I captured and have posted are not the ones that look overly bright to me. They do actually look quite nice. But there are a few moments in the scene where everything is just so bright that it's blarring. But it's all hard to say at this point.

Let me state this clearly, I have no intentions of changing or altering the MKV file, AVCHD or DVD5 of this project to change one scene to a certain personal expectation. I have no ambition to do so. All I'm merely trying to determine is if my monitor and/or video settings are off. Hopefully by comparing screen captures from my PC, and those from Harmy's workprint can tell me if something is indeed off.

Oh and in response to -1, those look really dark. Way darker than I remember. But until I see them in the full context of the video it would be hard to comment more. If you post that scene (corrected) in one of your 35mm threads, let me know.

frank678 said:

I havn't been able to get back on my home account to be able to download Harmy's DE 2 but just from comparing the shot to this IB screening it seems like he was aiming to match what was going on in the IB reference

http://petergaultney.smugmug.com/Movies/historic/Star-Wars-at-The-Senator/13089279_nXePV#!i=948681807&k=3oFJ2&lb=1&s=A

I'm fairly sure he's done more homework on this than all of us put together!!

Thanks for that screenshot! I'm fairly certain there's some difference in color from the IB print to my 2nd screenshot (from Harmy's MKV) below from my home monitor. You'll see in my second screen shot that there's primarily a gray/white sky where as the IB print has a slightly blue sky. I really won't know for sure until I get home to check it since I'm not dealing with the exact same captured frame.

IB Print

Sunday256 MKV screen captures

This is a discussion board is it not? If a person can't take constructive criticism or discuss their choices in a public forum then that's their own issue. And if something I've posted ruins someone else's experience, then quite honestly I'd be surprised since at least two people have said my screenshots look better than theirs.  I personally use a discussion board for the purpose of discussion, not PMs. I can still respect his effort without respecting his need for private communication.

I think I've found the posts you mentioned. And even a post from bilditup1 saying...."

"Aha, so I wasn't dreaming. I think that scene is a good test of whether your television or projector is properly calibrated or not."

Well. That may very well be the case. My monitor may not be calibrated correctly. The only thing is, I've not found are any finished product screen captures from Harmy that shows exactly how the Obi-Wan / Luke first meeting should look. I don't need to see the IB source images, all I need are a few different screen captures from that scene from his own computer's work print to know if my screen is off or not. To me, it's overly bright. And that may very well be the case if his screenshots are darker.

Harmy said:

The official AVCHD is still a few days away. Guys, I have my FINAL exams tomorrow, if I fail, I'm totally screwed, so I don't have time to f*ck about with this right now, so you'll just have to wait a bit.

As to that bright scene... FUCK IT!!! I already said it looked like this in my reference IB Print scans. Period. I really wish I could post some of them but I promised not to and I'm a man of my word.

Calibrating you monitor to make the scene look like you think it should will TOTALLY fuck up all the rest of the colours in other scenes!!!

Harmy, with all due respect there's no need to get all bent out of shape over these types of  comments. I'm not bashing the work you've put into this, and I'm not bashing your reasoning for the color timing you used. Relax.

When I saw this movie as an 8 year old, it was in a theater and it was a projected film. It wasn't digital and displayed on a computer monitor made in the 2000's. The presentation and circumstances are not the same. It's apples and oranges my friend.  My personal opinion is that part of that scene is just too bright. It's not how I remember seeing it as a kid, but that's okay because it's not being viewed under the same circumstances. I completely understand what you were trying to do. And I'll get over it. And if I can't, I'll see what becomes of the 35mm preservation to see if better suits my needs under today's modern experience.

What I would like to know, however, is if the screen captures that I posted and that DLVH posted match your screen captures of those same timecodes from your workprint. If they exactly match the IB Print, that's fine. But my understanding from the post I saw back in January is that you changed your color timing from the IB Print ever so slighty. I'm not asking if I should calibrate my monitor to match what *I* think it should look like. I'm asking you if my monitor is calibrated properly or needs adjusting to match what *you* intended it to look like. Feel free to respond back once your finals are over. I don't expect you to worry about this while you are trying to study.

Thanks again for your hard work.

It would appear that you're right. I mostly noticed the sky, rock color and Obi-Wan's cloak color being starkly darker at the end of the scene. But notice how Luke's left arm's sleeve is more towards his elbow once he falls and at the middle of the clip when Obi-Wan bends down the end of his sleeve is at his wrist. When they help C-3PO up Obi's hair was obviously recently combed and his hood has been flattened down. Much different than the middle. So it's obviously two different takes, and possibly a different day with different lighting. That could have been a reason why it  looks so washed out compared to the rest of the scene.

Actually my screengrab was right off the printscreen. I didn't adjust it at all. My monitor settings are set at default actually. It appears exactly as your screengrabs color and brightness wise. Just smaller/

I'm wondering if what we're seeing is the middle part of that scene actually being shot on a different day because it looks less saturated and the sky is actually more white than blue. Look at 29:29, 30:11 and 32:00. There seems a stark contrast in color and saturation with the 30:11 timecode being more white than blue compared to the other two timecodes. Excuse the sloppy pasting job...

dlvh said:

sunday256 said:

DragoonClawNZ said:

I'm not entirely sure on this but there was something on this post: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Harmys-STAR-WARS-Despecialized-Edition-HD-REMASTERED-is-now-officially-released/post/557865/#TopicPost557865

Mverta was talking about the bulbs used when this was being projected and that a bulb from the 70s had a warmer yellow hue to it.

 

After further thought, I'm of the mind my monitor settings may not be setup properly to display the movie in the anticipated result. I'm not sure exactly sure what that scene is supposed to "look like" anymore. LOL. Anyone want to post their screencaps at 30:41 and 30:43? I'm curious what everyone else is seeing.

I'm seeing what appears to be too much brightness as well here. Don't get me wrong, this whole project by Harmy was a MAJOR undertaking on his part, with a lot of help from many others also, and I don't want to come off like I am any sort of expert on how to adjust things according to color timing. Anyway, here they are:

Interesting. I'm seeing the exact same image color wise. This doesn't match what I saw Harmy's screen capture from back in January. Granted, it's not the same screen grab, but it's of the same scene. I don't know about the rest of you but I see more white saturation than yellow with less contrast and a very mild green in Obi-Wan's cloak. If I adjust my monitor's settings, I can get it fairly close to the intended result in Harmy's screenshot, but I'm not at all sure if Harmy intended that kind of monitor recalibration or if it should look as intended from default monitor settings. My screencapture is below Harmy's images.

DragoonClawNZ said:

I'm not entirely sure on this but there was something on this post: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Harmys-STAR-WARS-Despecialized-Edition-HD-REMASTERED-is-now-officially-released/post/557865/#TopicPost557865

Mverta was talking about the bulbs used when this was being projected and that a bulb from the 70s had a warmer yellow hue to it.

After further thought, I'm of the mind my monitor settings may not be setup properly to display the movie in the anticipated result. I'm not sure exactly sure what that scene is supposed to "look like" anymore. LOL. Anyone want to post their screencaps at 30:41 and 30:43? I'm curious what everyone else is seeing.

Cobra Kai said:

Cobra Kai said:

Great work, Harmy!

one question though...  How come the V2.0 shot here looks so different from this shot that Mike posted?

 

 

Harmy, if you get a chance, could you ask Mike about this scene, and why it is so much brighter on your reference images than other releases.

I know you're probably sick of all the color timing discussions and criticisms, but I was just curious about this scene. 

Thanks.

I'm wondering the same thing myself. This is my first time coming to the thread since it was released so I apologize in advance as I don't frequent the forums all that often. I saw the film in 1977 as well and don't quite remember it being this bright. But that could be years and years of watching revision after revision of the film and the boost in contrast. But it does seem a little on the excess in this particular scene. The rest of the Tatooine scenes sans the dune sea look fairly nice to me. But in defense of what is being said, some of the Topps trading cards from the blue series are quite bright as well. The DVD5 and the MKV do look brighter on the PC than when streamed onto my XBOX and displayed on my 120" projection screen. So there is some difference there.

Anyone using TVersity to stream to their Home Theater? I had to download VLC and Haali Media Splitter just to get it to work, and it's a bit choppy. If anyone has any setting suggestions, I'd appreciate it. I don't have a blu-ray burner, so I'll be stuck with streaming or waiting until the AVCHD file is completed.

Excellent work Harmy and thank you!

BUMP! Don't want to see this forgotten about....