sonnyboo

xhonzi said:

When you bring up objective points to validate your subjective viewpoint, you are begging discussion and disagreement.  Especially if you haven't done a good job.

I think we can all deal with it just fine.  You didn't do a very thorough job of trying to make your point.  So most of us will just ignore it and move on.

I wasn't aware that I had to do a thorough job of making my point. I just made a point, and I respect your opinion that you feel it wasn't done to your liking.

I've been waiting for you to move on for some time...

twooffour said:

What a ludicrous frog you are.

You are just a sore loser.

You lost, get over it.

hahahahahaha I WON I WON I WON

xhonzi said:

You would need to write comparing and contrasting observations to make your case that it's the worst.

No, I do not NEED to. You want me to, but I don't have to. Sorry.

I think RETURN OF THE JEDI is worse than PHANTOM MENACE after watching them all on Blu Ray.

Learn to deal with that.

Mrebo said:

 Makes one wonder why the thread was created.

So you made a thread about your opinion that you don't want to engage in discussion about because it's your opinion and then declare "victory"? This is the kind of nonsense that says a whole lot about your intent in posting here.

The thread was created to list my Top Ten Reasons ROTJ sucks.... I am saying this again and again. What part of that is hard to understand?

I am declaring victory, for the sole purpose of annoyance to TWOOFFOUR because he's an internet troll that will be annoyed by such proclomations and will inevitably end up him re-posting quotes of things I've written and things he's already written, and it will make me laugh because he cannot resist.

And I really beat him at his own game! TWOOFFOUR LOST THIS DEBATE!!!!

Darth Bizarro said:

sonnyboo said:

twooffour said:

FUCK... shit... I'm outta here.

See? I clearly won!!

TWOOFFOUR has surrendered. You all saw it.

 

twooffour is easily startled, but he'll soon be back, and in greater numbers.

Having just been made privy to that other thread, one that exists solely about him - my suspicion was confirmed. Yes, he'll be back because he is a troll. TWOOFFOUR cannot resist the temptation to respond and think his subjective opinions are right.

That's what makes imbeciles fun. It's like taking a nice pile of folded laundry from an obsessive compulsive and knocking it over for a lark.

I clearly kicked his ass in a debate, so there's no need to let him feebly challenge me in debates anymore.

Add me to the list.

TheBoost said:

sonnyboo said:

twooffour said:

FUCK... shit... I'm outta here.

See? I clearly won!!

TWOOFFOUR has surrendered. You all saw it.

 

Did you win?

 

 

 If only he had been a worthy adversary! I long for a meaningful debate with someone who can clearly articulate point by point their opinions. TWOOFFOUR was just not up to the challenge.

So i defeated him his such ease. Using nothing but logic and reason, I decimated his entire argument. He lost and everyone is laughing at how foolish he now looks because he thought he won.

Now I am the king of this thread and he is nothing but a far old slave in the Leia slave girl outfit embarrassed by his own debate inequities.

Mrebo said:

 But again, if this is purely your opinion not subject to debate or discussion, okay.

Isn't someone saying, I like this movie more than other movies, an opinion? A purely subjective opinion?

If I were to write a list of my personal subjective reasons why ROTJ is worse than Phantom Menace, aren't anyone's responses also personal subjective reasons?

What exactly will you gain from that? My goal was never to change anyone's mind or make them suddenly remove years of rancor (pun intended) towards prequels or special editions. I made a list of the Top 10 Reasons Return of the Jedi Sucked. I feel I am repeating myself a lot. I guess the public education system really does fail in many ways.

Aside from me absolutely and with no doubt whatseover WINNING the debate and argument with TWOOFFOUR, who lost so poorly in the most humiliating way online where millions of people can see his intellectual prowess demolished to my superior debate skills, taking that entire victory aside - there isn't much more to say, unless you all want to congratulate me on my beating TWOOFFOUR so concisively.

twooffour said:

FUCK... shit... I'm outta here.

See? I clearly won!!

TWOOFFOUR has surrendered. You all saw it.

twooffour said:

If you're fine with that, then don't write any articles on that - but then people will continue saying it's unsupported... but you're fine with that :D

I am fine with that.... mostly because if you read your sentence above -

Notice you are interjecting YOUR opinion that my blog "should" do anything.

I really don't have to do anything, nor SHOULD I write anything other than whatever I feel like.

You still lose! hahahahahahahahaaha

Jaskoen said:

http://youtu.be/XVCtkzIXYzQ

This dude abides...

Mrebo said:

So, as I conceded from my very first post, sonnyboo, your criticisms have some merit and I agree with some of them. But even if I agreed with all of them completely, I don't see how you conclude RoTJ is worse than the PT. And certainly you're entitled to believe that, but you haven't explained it.

RoTJ is my favorite and I like Ewoks. You're certainly not going to convince me otherwise and you've rightfully stated that isn't your motivation. But I would like to understand your thoughts that you wish to express.

The list clearly stated "Top 10 Reasons Return of the Jedi Sucked".... Not sure why this is being like a book report that needs to be graded, as I made an offhand remark that I liked it least of the 6 movies in the blog, mostly in reference to a PRIOR blog explaining that I was watching all 6 movies, but for whatever reason, several people on this site are fixated on that comment.

As already stated, I didn't know I HAD to explain it. It was also, at no time, the purpose or point to the list. If you want me to write an extensive comparative analysis, perhaps I will someday, but I don't really care enough. These are just movies. As I had also written, I am far more concerned about how they were made than the movies themselves.

I expressed the thoughts I intended. I was under the mistaken impression that the title of this thread and the blog made the point. If the title had been at any time "Top 10 Reason ROTJ sucked and the prequels are better", then I'd feel more obliged to write the book report for class. But I didn't.

I have the utmost respect for the subjective. I will not insinuate that someone is "wrong" for disagreeing with my opinions. It's a shame when people try to force their opinions as facts.

twooffour said:

ur opinion is in no way objective or absolute for anyone other than yourself and those who share your point of view.

And yet another defensive reaction - "it's just your opinion man, so leave mine alone, too".

 

Whoa, I never said leave my opinions alone. Where did that come from? Your imagination. Your ability to assume and be wrong is amazing. It's like a Jedi skill.

twooffour said:

sonnyboo said:

twooffour said:

Having that all said, don't you think you're acting a bit too defensive for a dude who started his own thread about 10 reasons why chocolate is better than vanilla ice cream? :D

No. I think you are projecting your opinion of what I'm writing as being defensive.

I do not think you or anyone else is 'wrong' for liking JEDI or disagreeing with my opinions. I simply have my opinions that are entirely subjective, as you do yours. Your opinion is in no way objective or absolute for anyone other than yourself and those who share your point of view.

 

Well, you posted a list of 10 arguments why ROTJ was supposed to suck, and didn't like the mere fact that someone challenged that list.

That's the very definition of defensive.

"Well stand by your opinion then, I doubt you can make any solid case for it."

"I was never trying to convince you or anyone else to change their minds. That was never my intention. I merely expressed my opinions, as they are."

You start out the thread by... making a case, but as soon as that case is challenged, you back off and insist on how you're not obliged to do any more of that.
Well, of course you're not, but then you have a weak case ;)

Did I ever say you expressed your opinions as they were not? ;)

I do not think you or anyone else is 'wrong' for liking JEDI or disagreeing with my opinions.

No one cares about that - you made a case yourself, and it was flawed by its arguments, so I think YOU'RE wrong for thinking that those 10 things make ROTJ the worst of them all (again, I'm not saying that the points themselves are all invalid).

Again a defensive reaction: "I don't claim your opinion to be wrong, so don't be attacking mine."

I simply have my opinions that are entirely subjective, as you do yours.

If they're entirely subjective, why don't you just post that you didn't like the movie?
As soon as you start making lists of arguments, you're moving out of the safe realm of "entirely subjective", because such arguments can be flawed, I hope you realize that?

ur opinion is in no way objective or absolute for anyone other than yourself and those who share your point of view.

And yet another defensive reaction - "it's just your opinion man, so leave mine alone, too".

 

Just because it isn't "absolute" doesn't mean it's not better backed up than yours, and when you cite flaws in ROTJ that supposedly make it worse than the prequels, while those exact flaws are even worse in the prequels (according to the parameters you yourself defined), then I smell a contradiction.

twooffour said:

sonnyboo said:

twooffour said:

Having that all said, don't you think you're acting a bit too defensive for a dude who started his own thread about 10 reasons why chocolate is better than vanilla ice cream? :D

No. I think you are projecting your opinion of what I'm writing as being defensive.

I do not think you or anyone else is 'wrong' for liking JEDI or disagreeing with my opinions. I simply have my opinions that are entirely subjective, as you do yours. Your opinion is in no way objective or absolute for anyone other than yourself and those who share your point of view.

 

Well, you posted a list of 10 arguments why ROTJ was supposed to suck, and didn't like the mere fact that someone challenged that list.

That's the very definition of defensive.

Can you please show anywhere I wrote I did not like what anyone else stated?

I made a list of MY top ten reasons RETURN OF THE JEDI sucks. I stated my top ten reasons. These reasons are subjective and any counter arguments appear to be equally valid and subjective. At no time did I say anything otherwise.

I never made arguments. I made subjective statements of opinions. Your the only one really making this out to be something other than that. You say no one cares that these are solely opinions, etc. but it's all in your mind. I'm not saying anything other than what I'm ACTUALLY writing, not what you are deluding.

You appear to be saying that my opinions are wrong. My subjective opinions are somehow not correct. Not different from yours, but objectively wrong. Unfortunately, that simply is not true and we arrive at an impasse. I'm willing to say that the world can have all kinds of opinions, and you seem to believe yours are better than everyone else's and you are right.

You have failed to make a good actual argument or "win" because there was nothing to win. Honestly, you just seem like a frustrated high school debate drop out. You are out to win an "argument" that exists solely in your imagination.

Peace.

twooffour said:

Darth Bizarro said:

twooffour said:

Having that all said, don't you think you're acting a bit too defensive for a dude who started his own thread about 10 reasons why chocolate is better than vanilla ice cream? :D

Don't you think you're behaving a bit to offensively for a thread about a FREAKING MOVIE.

I don't see how I'm being particularly "offensive", except in the regular way of joining in and saying something makes no sense, which is a fairly regular thing to do when talking about a freaking movie ;)

If it means anything, I do not find you to be "offensive". You're expressing your opinion, and nothing you are saying is remotely personal or insulting, so please feel free and continue.

twooffour said:

Yea, right. It's a decent list of "10 things that bug me about ROTJ", but if you wanna claim it's worse than the prequels, you need more than that.

Apparently, you need more than that. I'm perfectly content with my list, as is, and letting it bother you a lot more than me.

twooffour said:

Having that all said, don't you think you're acting a bit too defensive for a dude who started his own thread about 10 reasons why chocolate is better than vanilla ice cream? :D

No. I think you are projecting your opinion of what I'm writing as being defensive.

I do not think you or anyone else is 'wrong' for liking JEDI or disagreeing with my opinions. I simply have my opinions that are entirely subjective, as you do yours. Your opinion is in no way objective or absolute for anyone other than yourself and those who share your point of view.

twooffour said:

Well stand by your opinion then, I doubt you can make any solid case for it.

I was never trying to convince you or anyone else to change their minds. That was never my intention. I merely expressed my opinions, as they are.

Is that what you do? Try to make people 'prove' beyond all doubt that their subjective opinion is right or wrong? Why not debate which is better, chocolate or vanilla ice cream?

_____________________________

As for someone referencing Gary Kurtz quitting/getting fired after Empire Strikes Back and reading George's draft of JEDI...

“I took a master class with Billy Wilder once and he said that in the first act of a story you put your character up in a tree and the second act you set the tree on fire and then in the third you get him down”

- Gary Kurtz, producer

Mr. Bungle said:

No effing way. What does an Ewok do in ROTJ that even compares to "Icky poo!" or "Weesa FREE!" You think about that one.

As for Harrison Ford, worse than the Holiday Special? Six Days Seven Nights? How about Hollywood Homicide? 

 

I'll see your icky icky poo and raise you a Yub nub  and Ee chee wa maa! !

;)

Yes, Harrison Ford in the cockpit of the Millenium Falcon of the Holiday Special is WAY more convincing than "Take her, she's the fastest ship in the galaxy..." and the completely inconsistent (within a few freakin seconds no less), "I have your word, not a scratch!"

xhonzi said:

However, I have to also remind myself that the reviewer is basing this wacky opinion on RotJ2011, which I guess I can maybe start to understand.  Last time I tried to watch RotJ2004, I had to turn it off because it was making me angry instead of happy. 

RIP RotJ1983.

I stand by my opinion that ANY version of RETURN OF THE JEDI is the worst of the 6 movies to me.

None of the "changes" made in 1997, 2004, or 2011 fixed or addressed any of my top 10 reasons why the movie sucks.

Mrebo said:

10. Luke and Leia never shared a romantic kiss. Han did confront Leia twice in RoTJ.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you missed THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. There's a scene on HOTH after Luke comes out of this healing water tank and Leia kisses him, full on with tongue. Seems kind of romantic and on the verge of being an objective observation.

The blatantly obvious intent of the kiss was to make the Han Solo character jealous. I don't know how things work in your family, but if wanted to make a chick jealous, I don't kiss my sister.

(please don't take too much offense to that snarky reply, but it's demonstrative of a point, not meant as a personal insult)

As for the Han confrontations, as I originally wrote, they have NO DRAMATIC TENSION in JEDI. He just very quickly gives up. This is NOT the character from EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. Compare those two confrontations to the south passage scene in EMPIRE STRIKES BACK where Leia tries to talk Han into not leaving, and he wants a good bye kiss. Then look at the scene on the Falcon where they have their first kiss.

There is no comparison.

RETURN OF THE JEDI has a ton that is flat and uninteresting. I'd even take the horrendous prequel EpII dialogue of "I truly.... deeply.... love you" over this dreck. Not by much, but I would.

Between the prequel trilogy and Return of the Jedi, it's like picking which apple is slightly less rotten.

Jaskoen said:

It's interesting that the OP and I were exactly the same age (11) when we saw Jedi in '83, and yet our opinions are wildly different. I love Jedi and while some parts, I agree, could have been done better - I enjoyed it immensely when it was released and felt it was a fitting end to the trilogy. None of the OP's criticisms ever crossed my mind in '83. And Leia's bikini? Yeah that had an effect on my 11 year-old brain.

One more thing - while Wookiees instead of Ewoks would have certainly been cool, it brings up other problems since Wookiees weren't primitive - they were space-faring and already allied with the rebellion. It would have been a completely different movie, beyond simply replacing Ewoks with Wookiees, is what I'm saying.

It is fascinating! I agree.

As for the Wookiees, the point that the empire was xenophobic is not as overt, although present by default (in the OT, there are no aliens serving anywhere in the Empire). Lucas' intent to show that a technologically superior race gets toppled by the primitive locals gets muddled when they are designed more to sell toys than make a sociological statement. As I say in my blog, the single shot where two Ewoks get shot and one of them mourns the dead one - that IS seriously powerful. In my opinion, they needed a lot more DRAMATIC TENSION like that. The price paid for freedom, as it were.

twooffour said:

If it said "the worst of the THREE movies", I would maybe read it.
Worse than the prequels, though? I call bullshit on that, without even looking.

Love your open mind. I call "ignorance" on that statement.

As with all of these things, they are purely opinions, neither right nor wrong on any side.

I respect other people's opinions because it is all subjective. There is no objective, absolute right or wrongs about these interpretations or likes and dislikes.

People who like Ewoks are okay. People who love Return of the Jedi are cool with me too. I do not hate the movie entirely, as there are many things that are kick ass in the movie. It's just from the Blu Ray and over 6 years since I last saw Return of the Jedi, it surprised me that I placed it lower than Phantom Menace, for the reasons described.

Phantom Menace is a train wreck too, but there were only a few tiny, slight reasons why I put it above JEDI. Mostly, just scenes with Palpatine. The language suddenly grows up and gets collegiate, much like the way people spoke in A NEW HOPE.

Mrebo said:

With all due respect: meh.

Most of those are nitpicks. Several times you refer to behind the scenes happenings/ideas as if to prove RoTJ was the worst of the "6" when really it just shows that you think it would have been better a certain way.

To some extent I would concede it could have been better in certain places. But that it "sucks" and is the "worst"...hah!

10. Solo was softer. Luke and Leia never shared a romantic kiss. Han did confront Leia twice in RoTJ. I personally didn't need a full-blown love triangle.

9. Seriously...matter paintings help to make this the worst?

8. There were good and bad effects. Just as there were in ANH and ESB.

7. That a son might exercise some wishful thinking in conjunction with the Force that he might believe there to be good in his father? That is not far-fetched. I didn't expect a tender moment in which Vader saves a puppy or something. Luke sensed the struggle and the modicum of good.

6. Kill the black guy? Falling back on that sci fi trope would make this a better movie?

5. For the sake of originality, I would have wanted something different, but it was a very different ending more focused on what was happening inside with Luke vs Emperor.

4. There could have been more tension there, there could've been a love triangle, but meh. Doesn't make or break the movie.

3. Solo didn't have the same edge, as already conceded. But Ford played his role dutifully. I don't care what Ford was saying/doing offscreen.

2. Ewoks are awesome. Get over it.

1. Could've been presented more credibly...but it still worked. Luke was emotional, maybe not as emotional as you would want but he was.

I'll give you partial credit for most points but I most disagree with your conclusion that RoTJ is somehow the worst.

I don't think a complete lack of dramatic impact or any consistent character development to be "nitpicking". Seems like a major flaw to me, but to each his own.

Let's be real, Jar Jar Binks with his Gungans and  Ewoks are duking it out for 'worst element in Star Wars movies".

Harrison Ford, ON SCREEN, in this movie gives the single worst and most uninspired performance of his career.

I don't see Lando as "kill the black guy" as much as "kill a lead character", to the point originally made - to establish some level of sacrifice for the good guys, for the sake of creating an element of danger for the characters, and risk for the audience that someone we have grown to care about, regardless of skin pigmentation, might die on screen.

For Luke to sense, invisible to the audience and not demonstrated by any action or even words spoken that Darth Vader has some 'good in him' is just plain POOR FILMMAKING. There are a myriad of things Lucas (or Kasden) could have done in the screenplay to DEMONSTRATE some wavering from being totally evil. As it is, from episodes iV-V, this comes out of left field and makes no sense.

Mielr said:

 

sonnyboo said:

Just finished the blu ray set. I wrote a blog about why ROTJ is the worst of the 6 movies.

There are SIX Star Wars movies?! ;-)

 

For some people... :)