msycamore

SilverWook said:

I cried, therefore I am a fanboy now. :(

In 2005, we all thought Star Wars was over and done with. That we're getting a new movie with the original characters in it at all feels like a miracle. That's what people are reacting to. Maybe it's cynical marketing, but it's Star Wars, darnit!

Sorry if I come across as a party pooper, we all just want to voice our opinions, SW means much to us all in different ways. I actually, much to my surprise, liked what I was seeing despite my negative words towards our lovable space smuggler.

Harmy said:

I'm personally not too excited. There were some bits I liked and there were some I didn't. Some of the character moments were nice but in the last shot, it didn't click for me as seeing Han again, I just saw Harrison Ford, I don't know why and Chewie looks really weird too.

I agree, and the reason is becuse it is Harrison Ford. IMO he has played almost all his roles like this since '83 instead of magically becoming them. Very cheesy - Holiday Special/Crystal Skull vibes. Definitely the weak part of the teaser. It appear oddly staged as well, in the way you get the feeling it was a sequence shot for the single purpose of inclusion in a trailer.

Apparently the short sequence have already brought some fanboys to tears even though it's not any more exciting than it would have been seeing behind the scenes stills of Harrison on the set. Love Ford and the original Star Wars but this nostalgia cinema that is Hollywood these days just goes to show how creatively bankrupt they are.

Harmy said:
And the VFX shots reminded me of this video by MVerta about VFX shots grounded in reality, which was a hallmark of the original movies. The crazy camera moves, while cool, just don't read as reality. It looks sort of incogruent with not only the original movies but, from what we've seen so far, also with the live action in this new movie.

I don't think the FX-footage we've seen so far from this movie look anything different in its aesthetic sensibilities from any other big blockbuster movie from the last decade or so...

The early McQuarrie/Johnston work come to life is definitely the highlight and quite eerie. While I fully share Verta's view on the effects of Star Wars '77 and the general approach to visual effects before the CGI-era, even Star Wars '77 had its fair share of "cool looking shots" - the POV dive into the trench is one of them.

Another reason for its "grounded in reality" was the world war II footage they utilized as a form of animatics. That's also why most of it looks like believable WW-II dogfights in space.

Sure, the crash zoom and video game aesthetics are disappointing. But in the end, will Kasdan and Abrams be able to tell a good story within this big spectacle? Is it just a nostalgia party for both actors and fanboys? Is this a good story that was waiting to be told? Was the script for Star Wars 7 the initial spark or was it the merchandising opportunities? I think most of us know the answers. I just know that my eyes were never meant to see a 70+ Solo. Sorry, Harrison, pass the torch already!

Spaced Ranger said:

LOL   I know it's been a lo-o-ong time!   :D

Ha-ha.. Yeah, at one point I felt the LD project stole a lot of my time and yours completely in vain but looking at it on the bright side we've learned a lot of things about this film along the way since then. Just remember that the true warrior of this thread is the silver haired wookie who have captured laserdiscs, videotapes, shipped his personal print for transfer and bought a vintage film print in hope and in order to make some sense of this mess. Good things come to those who wait... I know Antcufaalb will do a great job on the laser and it will be awesome to see what Poita's magic will bring us. :)

SilverWook said:

Kubrick liked THX. Star Wars too. ;)

Yes, Star Wars the film, everyone did except Lucas himself. Also, one minor similarity between THX 1138 and The Shining are the opening titles which are highly unusual in the way that they are scrolling upwards in the frame. I actually cannot recall another movie offhand that did that before THX.

Speaking of the titles, I can't believe I hadn't noticed it before, but I just discovered that the opening credits on the 2001 DVD of The Shining are different from other transfers, I know the end titles were blue colored on the first home video release, but the 2001 DVD opening credits also seems to have been made specifically for home video, they are smaller than the theatrical and contains a dark blue drop shadow. The visible dirt and grain makes me believe they were also optically made. The '99 DVD and nineties LD did apparently contain the theatrical titles from what I understand. Please confirm if you're able to SilverWook.

SilverWook said:

We could start a Shining thread to gauge interest in a color corrected tennis ball/original mono/correct WB logo project?

Not a bad idea. The vintage WB logo would be a nice touch but in my opinion it's not a deal breaker like the audio and color screw up. In THX the WB logo is at least part of the film.

Spaced Ranger said:

That is telling about both Kubrick and Lucas. We expect professionals to admire their betters, but are surprised learn the other way around.

Personally, I still think Lucas was a brilliant director and filmmaker (with the emphasis on was) despite the clusterfuck we've since been presented with. I have still not to this day seen his last two SW-movies in full, only short segments here and there and they actually seem to be worse than his previous one. I didn't know what to think back in '97 other than disappointment, in '99 it was like a sledgehammer hit the skull - there was a studio mogul behind the wheels and not a director.

Ronster said:

But what I am most interested in is this opening Narration and any other "Big" differences between versions comparable to the directors cut. But I am talking outside of movie censorship.com comparisons.

Is there a streaming link to this alternate opening sequence?

I have to say I also prefer the original Theatrical ending credits of course too but I am mostly curious about different scenes in different versions to be honest.

Never mind I found the link to the iIalien opening... Is there an English version though????

The opening narration of the Italian TV-broadcast is a foreign distributor thing. I uploaded a dvd of THXita's avi a few years ago along with english subtitles to Myspleen, don't know if it's still there. Plan to make another version with some calibration applied... I have no idea what you are referring to in regards to "original Theatrical ending credits."

TV's Frink said:

msycamore said:

You have to suffer from what resembles the battered wife syndrome in order to still support this franchise.

 I like you man, but this is almost as bad as the awful rape analogy some people use.  Not being able to watch a movie does not compare in the slightest.

On the device I'm on your text is all in black. I don't know, I'm at the beach sunbathing waiting for the digital release, so it might just be my vision from too much sun.

Anyway, I'm sorry if my rather hyperbolic comment offended you or anyone else, and thanks Bingowings for understanding my view. It was an analogy, poor perhaps, yes but I definitely see similarities (albeit of a much less serious kind of course) with it and the star wars fandom due to way Lucasfilm treats its fanbase.

http://www.starwars.com/news/the-star-wars-digital-movie-collection-coming-april-10?linkId=13366043

It's nice to hear that Kathleen Kennedy is thrilled that fans now will be able to enjoy Star Wars on their digital devices wherever they go. Being able to watch the Special Editions and the Prequels when sunbathing at the beach is exactly what fans continually have asked for in the last ten years.

How about being fucking able to watch the actual films that made people fall in love with this and made it a phenomenon in the first place?

You have to suffer from what resembles the battered wife syndrome in order to still support this franchise.

unamochilla2 said:

Since Han shoots first, I guess that means Greedo still shoots. Was the original shot used or is this not the last we've seen of the rubber neck Solo?

I hope not, my plan was to watch that when sunbathing and having a beach party along with Alderaan shooting first.

Regarding the open matte transfers, was checking out the original trailer and discovered its framing is the most open.

Theatrical Trailer

Compare it with the frames seen here: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare/shining.htm

Nothing unusual but fun seeing how different the cropping is between transfers. By the look of it, it seems they did a stellar job in 2007.

Sorry, is this the THX thread? A little Shining cannot hurt, all work and no play... ;)

SilverWook said:

I know. Even the elderly transfer used for the first DVD in 1999 is different in it's framing.

Can't recall who said they were going to capture the LD audio at the moment.

I would be sorely tempted if a 35mm print turned up. The one I saw in 2006 was scratchy, but the color was fine. We'd have to restore the correct Warners logo at the beginning of course. ;)

Oh man, the '99 DVD was one ugly release. One of the first DVD's I ever bought. It did provide the mono mix but I recall the track was very weak. Suddenly got the urge to check it out to see if it was as poor as I remember but it appears I no longer own it. I believe one of the old PAL DVD's have the original mix for the International Cut. The audio was slightly reworked between cuts I think.

Yes, I miss the old red Warner Communications logo at the start. Nice to hear there's old prints out there with the colors still intact. The print I saw a few years ago (International Cut) was severely faded and rough. Still a great experience.

SilverWook said:

BTW, there's a new book on The Shining coming out next month I'm really looking forward to.

http://www.theoverlookhotel.com/post/114983735961/coming-in-may-2015-from-centipede-press-is-a

Yeah, looking forward to it! :)

SilverWook said:

I think the remix was done tastefully. It's not gimmicky at all, nor does it add anything that wasn't there before. And I think someone has captured the Laserdisc PCM mono?

It might be tastefully done but I don't think it's too much to ask that Warner provides the option. It's not how the film was presented originally. The fidelity is great but in my opinion the remix is inferior in other subtle ways, in terms of music editing the remix is slightly different. If I recall correctly, Gordon Stainforth wasn't even consulted for the remix. If someone has captured the LD PCM, please let me know.

SilverWook said:

I like the open matte version once in a while, just for the infamous helicopter shadow. I wonder if an HD version is out there in the wild?

I think there is, just be aware that the open matte versions are cropped in their own ways, (mostly on the sides and at the top of the frame) you don't get to see the full 1.37:1 (1.33:1) negative ratio on them.

2001 4:3 transfer vs. 2007 16:9 transfer

A bit of the infamous shadow is actually still visible for a few frames in the 2007 transfer. It's of course presented in 1.78:1 instead of 1.85:1, but who knows how they cropped the 2007 transfer. Would be interesting to see an actual 35mm film cell from the film in order to see where the actual masking in 1.85:1 and 1.66:1 would land in frame.

SilverWook said:

If you think that's bad, check out the pink tennis ball in The Shining.

http://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-tennis-ball-in-The-Shining-change-to-pink

I groan every time I see this shot. The theatrical DCP has it too. :/

Yeah, I hate that color screw up, makes you wonder what else they fucked around with. It also seems like Warner have decided to permanently replace the original mono mix with the 2001 5.1 remix. Oh well, at least they finally released a properly matted video transfer.

Spaced Ranger said:

But we'll never find out because, while trying a quick search for that interview (which failed)...

Well, it's not that important, I were just a bit curious. Wasn't aware that an interview with her existed. It can remain a top secret for all I care.

AntcuFaalb said:

Update: I re-captured all three of my THX 1138 LDs with the DPS-575 and, despite my initial praise, have some reservations about the results of the 3D CF in "normal" (of low/normal/high/extreme) mode.

The first frame of every significant shot change (e.g., dark to light; red to blue) has SeriouslyScrewedUp™ chroma; everything else looks fine otherwise.

The question at this point is: Do I accept this result and move forward or should I re-capture with the DPS-575 in 2D adaptive mode instead?

The best solution is, of course, a combination of the two. I can re-capture with the DPS-575 in 2D adaptive mode and then replace the SeriouslyScrewedUp™ frames with ones from it, but I don't really have a shot change detection algorithm I trust at the moment and I'm not willing to go through this entire thing to come up with a shot list.

Thoughts?

In better news: I have found the best denoising algorithm I've ever seen in an extremely expensive (read: thousands of dollars) program I use regularly. It uses some of the best motion estimation algorithms in the biz and I can't force this thing to smear. It's wonderful.

Thanks for the update. Besides being trademarked, how does the seriously screwed up chroma look like in pictures, good old fashioned smear artifacts?

The idea of a B&W encode of the Warner Cut sounds terrific as a first quick way to get it out there. Keep up the good work Poita and Antcufaalb! :)

Yeah, that's just ridiculous. The only roadblock is George and always has been.

Baronlando said:

Yeah this is a whole new cash stream to get from the 2011 box without doing anything. (and for all the yammering about Fox, the Disney logo is all over this)

On everything except on ANH where it states the studio is Fox and not Disney/Lucasfilm.

"Experience the movie that changed the world..." it says of a video edit created in 2004/2011. :)

camroncamera said:

77FN said:

Some of the ON was destroyed for good too, according to this article:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/09/once-lost-star-wars-related-short-to-screen-for-the-first-time-in-33-years/3/

"Tanaka: I remember when we were working on the Star Wars restoration, that was a different process. I think we optically recreated interpositives. But in order to do this, it went through some kind of warm chemical bath cleansing. The weird thing about Star Wars was that it was made up of different film stocks, so it went through this bath and they didn’t know what would come out on the other end...

 

Tanaka: There’s a space battle shot and a close-up on Hans Solo, and the original negative is coming out of this cleaning solution and it’s just acetate.

Parker: It’s all clear. Oh no, did the bath dissolve it?

Tanaka: Yeah, it dissolved it, depending on the film stock."

I get the impression that they are referring to the shot where Han Solo is in the turret gunner seat and the frame is rocked side-to-side as an optically-printed animated effect as the attacking TIE Fighters blast away at the Millennium Falcon. Pretty sure that's how it plays in the GOUT, anyway. That shot could have been printed to CRI from camera negative and then the CRI subsequently faded away to clear years before it even reached that cleaning bath. If that's the case, the actual OCN for that shot - without the animated shake - might have been in the same faded-but-usable condition as much as the rest of the OCN.

No, David Tanaka is obviously talking about Hans Solo.

But seriously, the optical camera shakes could very much be what he is referring to, both the one on Han and Luke was redone for the Special Edition.

You_Too said:

Did it look the same on the 2004 DVD or was this a change that first appeared on the blu-ray?

The frame I posted is from the DVD. Lovely isn't it. I assume it look the same way in the blu-ray.

poita said:

I was just interested, I heard an interview where George Lucas' mother pronounces the movie as THEX throughout it, so I was wondering if that was how George referred to it at 'home'.

It got me thinking about how the general public pronounced it.

I remember the Australian band INXS (In Excess) being introduced as 'inks' on stage once.

Interesting, what interview (documentary) did you see?

Fang Zei said:

pittrek said:

What are the 2011 Blurays?

Something like : Original negatives -> 1995 scan -> SE digital version -> 1997 SE prints -> 1080p scan with colour "correction" -> Lowry "restoration" -> 1080p DVD master -> more stupid digital changes -> 2011 Bluray master

So yes, the BDs are done from an early century 1080p scans of SE masters, but no, they didn't do it because "original negatives are nowhere to be found" but simply because GL for some reason considered the old horrible looking scans to be "good enough" and didn't want to spend money for doing it correctly.

Even if the rumours that the original negatives were modified to contain 1997 SE material (which I doubt, I simply refuse to believe they were THAT stupid), they still have finished prints of the original theatrical editions (including some Technicolor prints if I remember correctly). Even scanning these prints would be "good enough" for most of us

I think it's been documented that the o-neg was in fact re-conformed for the SE. That is why they were able to just scan it in '04 and all the '97 changes were already there.

 As the negative for Star Wars was cut A / B roll, each and every shot could be easily disconnected from those on either side and replaced or removed, without damage or loss of frames.

However, for the sequels, the modus operandi was for some reason different - interpositives and internegatives was largely the base for their work. That's why you for example at times have loss of frames on either side of a new or enhanced shot in the Special Edition of The Empire Strikes Back but not in Star Wars (ANH).

danny_boy said:

I am using a 4KSony 1000es projector...

I am stunned, actually shocked! Do you actually own a 4K projector!! Why haven't you told us before?!

captainsolo said:

IIRC it's in the truck chase as Indy approaches on horseback. I'll have to re-watch and take notes.

 Thanks. Will check it out.

captainsolo said:

Additionally the score has some directionality that isn't in the discrete version.

Can you be more specific regarding this directionality of the score, any particular scenes that stands out in this mix, I saw the movie with this track last year but didn't notice then. Would like to compare.

AntcuFaalb said:

The key thing here is Lynne's use of the word "earlier". It implies that the current versions are upgrades rather than alterations and it legitimizes them in consequence.

"earlier versions" also sounds like a very Lucas-esque way to describe them.

poita said:

I was just interested, I heard an interview where George Lucas' mother pronounces the movie as THEX throughout it, so I was wondering if that was how George referred to it at 'home'.

It got me thinking about how the general public pronounced it.

I remember the Australian band INXS (In Excess) being introduced as 'inks' on stage once.

Interesting, what interview (documentary) did you see?

Btw, have you guys come to a decision yet regarding the '71 print scan? I would personally suggest Spaced Ranger if it comes to color correction of the print but he himself may not agree with me of course. I just thought it would at least reduce workload off your shoulders, Poita. What's the plan, guys? THX-Vinegar Edition.

Ha-ha-ha... that's awesome Ranger. :)

Yeah, where are all those threads around the internet who asks, "Do you think Warner Bros will release the unaltered version of THX 1138 on DVD and/or blu-ray?" :)

Yes, his THX is of course nowhere near as important and loved as Star Wars but when scenes cut from the SW-movies are now available in higher resolution than what the films themselves ever has been despite their rough shape, you would think people would get the point. There are cheap pornos out there treated better than Star Wars and Lucas himself is the sole reason behind that.

Fang Zei said:

Do we really think, even for a moment, that she actually wanted to type those words as part of the form reponse letter?

Of course we don't, the level of absurd reached its zenith. Just to give such a response to its fanbase (FUCK YOU) is worthy of preservation on its own. :)

Fang Zei said:

While we're once again on the subject of THX-1138, I continue to wonder if there is anything legally barring WB from releasing the original version, ditto Universal with American Graffiti.

I have no idea, I may be completely wrong about this but I think THX is nowadays fully owned by American Zoetrope, and that distribution rights are still with Warner. And no idea about Graffiti.

It's just sad that he won't let his films be available like all other directors. We know that he doesn't like them, but no one will force him to buy them, right?

towne32 said:

When comparing SW restoration to the love and attention *some* other major films get, much time has been spent discussing the limitations of restoring the original film. The negatives and elements are obviously in a sorry state. But as far as ESB and Jedi go, is there any reason they can't perform restoration as good as, for instance, Jaws? There is no such thing as flawless, and as stated above, there will always be complaints. They'll have to make decisions that can never please everybody. But a professional quality release should actually be possible for those two, right?

Yes, the reason is this guy:

Yes, it really is that simple. And it goes for all his films. Why this have been and continues to be so hard to grasp for some people I will never understand. It's not like all the films directed by George Lucas are somehow impossible to restore, it's the director and producer who is impossible. It's not just a coincidence that his feature-length directorial debut THX 1138 (just like his other films) last saw a home video release in the early nineties.

captainsolo said:

It has been said the WS LD was remixed, but nothing I have found points to this. Some claimed a few sound effects were different, but I haven't found any. This track has music panning not in the DVD 5.1 which was created from the 70mm mix. Perhaps it could be either the Dolby original or abandoned VistaSonic original mix which was supposed to have mixed in stereo surrounds. Either way it would be helpful to compare against the old pan n' scan disc for differences.

I don't know if the Widescreen LD was a complete re-mix but at least the sound of the staff being dropped into the map room is different on that LD compared to the original Dolby mix.

Btw, here's what The Digital Bits had to say back in 2003:

"You should also know that Lucasfilm and Paramount have gone in and made some minor fixes to these films, erasing elements that weren't originally intended to be seen. So, for example, when Indy falls into the Well of Souls now, you won't see the reflection of the cobra on the glass that was placed to protect actor Harrison Ford. Also, when the giant stone ball rolls after Indy in the opening of Raiders, a support beam that guided the ball on the set has been erased. We're told that some 14 minor fixes were made to these films in all."

So apparently some 14 minor fixes... This article mention clean-up of blue fringing: http://www.indianajones.de/dvd/texte/restore.php 

Not sure which shot he refer to but if I recall correctly the opening of the Well of Souls scenes that was shot against blue screen had some blue fringing in the original film.

CodySolo said:

So the only hope for a fully HD version of the original pole and reflection shots is to find a copy of that pre-Lowry alterations HD broadcast?

Or scan an original film print.

SilverWook said:

I wonder if Warner's would have originally attached a cartoon to THX, given it's short running time?

Coily is enough. ;)