kk650

NeverarGreat said:

^The grading of Star Wars was originally very inconsistent, so wouldn't making the colors consistent remove some of the original aesthetic? I don't mean to argue that the inconsistent color grade was intentional or even appealing, but it certainly was a part of the film and any project that attempts to return to the '77 version (such as Despecialized) should endeavor to keep this look in my opinion. And if changes in color are unappealing, the same argument could be applied to the walls of the Death Star, which were also painted slightly different shades of blue/green. Should those be made an even color just because it is more appealing? Or what about hokey costumes that move oddly in some shots more than others? Should the offending shots be doctored? All I'm saying is that a preservation should preserve a movie, warts and all.

Well it really boils down to whether you consider all the reference frames the despecialised edition was based on to be 100% accurate to how it looked during the original theatrical release. Based on the amount of colour inconsistancies from shot to shot during the same scenes, I strongly suspect that is not the case, at least for many of those frames. Either that or the colour inconsistencies were introduced when the colours were being interpreted by harmy, I can't say because I haven't seen those frames. I know from my own experience regrading Star Wars that it is more inconsistant than other films i've worked on, I had to use 30-40 different settings across the whole film to get the grading fairly consistant, I just don't believe it was THAT inconsistant during its theatrical run.

Say for the sake of argument that all the reference frames are 100% accurate and the theatrical release of Star Wars was that inconsistant colourwise, it brings up the interesting question of what should be prioritised in a preservation/restoration, the colour expectations of the audience or maintaining the theatrical presentation exactly, however flawed it is colourwise.

Everybody I imagine will have a different opinion on this and what a preservation/restoration is meant to be exactly. Me, I think a theatrical preservation of Star Wars is ultimately meant to be seen and enjoyed by normal people rather than studied by film historians, colour/fleshtone inconsistencies get in the way of that IMHO, so I would personally prioritise maintaining colour/fleshtone consistency on a scene by scene basis, even if it meant ignoring certain frames that did not coincide with the overall colour scheme chosen.

Jonno said:

kk650 said:

Nobody here has called regrading Man of Steel a 'restoration'. I don't see how it not being a restoration suddenly makes it a fanedit though. No editing has been suggested by anybody here, so the only change would be the colour grading, so clearly the 'fanedit' category you want to place this project in does not apply.

The thread title includes the word 'fix', and it's in the preservation thread - hence my concern about its taxonomy.

I think your hard and fast definition of 'editing' is reductive, and that a deliberate alteration of colour constitutes an edit, but to me the larger issue is that the film materials are being manipulated for the hell of it, as opposed to restoratively.

I absolutely agree that 'proper' image and sound for a given film is subject to interpretation, but for my money a well researched and evidence-based approach such as Harmy's is always preferable to 'what looks right'. The intent is markedly different - on the one side, trying to recover *an* original look for the film from all available evidence (however limited), and on the other using personal taste and judgement to make adjustments.

Whew! I hadn't intended to argue my angle quite so vociferously, but I think this particular case (and people's attitudes to it) is an interesting one, because the original video was touted, embraced and posted here as some sort of repair when it was clearly nothing of the sort.

In moviemaking terms the term 'editing' refers to choosing what footage appears and doesn't appear in a film, which is the domain of the film's editor, not how the film looks colourwise which is the domain of the film's colorist. If your definition of editing also includes colour grading as well, that's fair enough, we'll just have to agree to diagree on that.

I'm not questioning the merit of restoration/preservations, there's clearly demand for such releases. They're difficult endevours that usually requires shot by shot grading to get it right. I think comparing them to what you might call 'removing blanket tint' projects like I do (which is not really 'grading to my own preference' like you put it, but more revealing the original colours in the transfer beneath the blanket tint) is like comparing apples and oranges, they both have completely different goals.

Saying restoration/preservations are superior to other fangrades because they recreate the colours of previous home releases seems a little silly to me because as we all know, one film like Star Wars has had many releases with totally different colour grading over the years. Which home release do you regrade to, which is how it is 'supposed to look like'? Ultimately it always comes down to ones own preference, something subjective that many others will disagree with you over.

Objectively, the only release that be considered to have the correct colour grading and look 'how its supposed to look' is the latest official home release of that film IMHO, saying a certain home release is 'how its supposed to look' is just you expressing your preference for the look of a certain home release, a viewpoint that many will disagree with you on.

A theatrical release preservation/restoration of something like Star Wars of course is a completely different kettle of fish compared to home release preservation/restorations, the questionable accuracy of the single frames used as references for how the whole film was supposed to have looked in the cinema, compared to the colour grading of home releases that can actually be seen in their entirety, makes any preservation/restorations of the theatrical release that much more unreliable IMHO, not to mention unappealing to watch when you have drastic changes in overall colours/fleshtones in the same scene from shot to shot.

Rather than slavishly regrade to each frame, irrespective of whether they are accurate or not colourwise, I would personally choose a frame with colours that I think look accurate and appealing and regrade the rest of that scene to fit that colour asthetic in order to maintain overall colour/fleshtone continuety from shot to shot. That would fix the colour continuety issues that the current despecialised editions have. That would be a preservation/restoration of the theatrical release of Star Wars that I would personally much prefer to the current despecialised edition. I'm strongly of the belief that if there is conflict between maintaining frame colour accuracy and maintaining colour/fleshtone consistency, maintaining colour/fleshtone continuety must be prioritised above all else.

Jonno said:

kk650 said:

Otherwise you seem to be suggesting that any release with colour grading different to the official release is a fanedit, which would of course make the despecialised editions fanedits as well.

Not quite - I'm suggesting that a fan-modified release with colour grading different to the original/theatrical release constitutes a fan edit, or at least fan version. Unlike Star Wars Despecialized, which is based on precise examination of original prints, a recoloured Man of Steel won't restore or 'fix' any authentic experience; it will be a personal interpretation.

The official releases are, for better or worse, what the makers intended and what was seen in theatres. Reinterpret it by all means, but such a project shouldn't be considered a restorative measure, however much some may prefer it.

Nobody here has called regrading Man of Steel a 'restoration'. I don't see how it not being a restoration suddenly makes it a fanedit though. No editing has been suggested by anybody here, so the only change would be the colour grading, so clearly the 'fanedit' category you want to place this project in does not apply.

The grading of the despecialised is based on harmy subjective interpretation of the colour of frames that he's been provided with from various sources that may or may not be accurate compared to how it looked in the cinema when it was first released.

You may feel that thats how the Star Wars Original Trilogy is 'supposed to look' and therefore not 'fanedits' by your definition but I have seen them and I disagree, there is a great deal of colour/fleshtone inconsistency thoughout those releases that makes me think that its very unlikely they looked that way in the cinema originally. By your own definition that makes them fanedits.

What you appear to be saying Jonno is that any release that doesn't look like it's 'supposed to' according to you is a fanedit,  which is something that I think you can understand I don't agree with. I don't really see why your subjective opinion on what releases are 'supposed to look like' should somehow be the deciding factor on whether a project is considered a 'fanedit' or not. I prefer to use something more objective and universal in deciding what is a fanedit, which is basically: has it been edited compared to the official release? Yes, fanedit it is. No, fanedit its not. Its that simple. I really don't see the confusion here, with the term fanedit being short for 'fan edit', its clear that editing is required for the term to apply. The 'Fan Projects' category fits this type of project perfectly IMHO.

Jonno said:

Just to be clear on this, these projects are aimed at altering Man of Steel not to how it is supposed to look, but to how people want it to look?

That's all fine I guess, but you're all talking about a revision, not a restoration. There's a fan edit section for that sort of thing...

Hmm, interesting definition of a 'fanedit' you have there Jonno. Fanedits are called fanedits because they are edited differently from the official releases, not because they have different colour grading. Otherwise you seem to be suggesting that any release with colour grading different to the official release is a fanedit, which would of course make the despecialised editions fanedits as well.

This section is called 'Other Preservations AND Fan Projects', I think regrading Man of Steel without any editing falls quite comfortably in the later category. No editing is involved so fanedit would be the wrong category for such a release.

As much as I hate Jedi Rocks, Vader's Nooooo......? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! is just on a completely different level of bad, definately the worst change of the ROTJ SE for me.

I own the blu-ray set of Star Wars but I've never been able to bring myself to watch ROTJ because of that change, I saw the clips on youtube when the blu-rays came out and it was the last straw for me.

I'd been able to put up with Hayden and Jedi Rocks in the previous releases but that change to such an iconic moment in the OT was just too much for me to bear.

GlastoEls said:

^ ROTJ 83, 97, 04 or 11? ;D

The theatrical release of ROTJ, can do without Jedi Rocks :)

I have to admit that things are not looking great for a UOT release this year IMHO, no mention whatsoever at the Celebration and I can't see Disney doing another Star Wars release so soon after these digital releases.

That answer where Disney says that 'there are no plans to release them at this time' is very worrying as well. Makes me wonder whether not releasing the UOT was part of the agreement when GL sold Lucasfilm to the mouse...

I know that this opinion is going to be unpopular here (when has that ever stopped me haha) but I actually enjoy ROTJ more than I enjoy TESB.

I recognise that TESB is a better film technically but ROTJ has much better replayability for me, I find it a lot more entertaining and upbeat, like Star Wars. TESB I find very bleak and humourless by comparison, albeit brilliant in its own way as a sobering wakeup call to the Rebel Alliance.

Star Wars is definately my favourite, followed by ROTJ and then TESB in last place. I think humour as well as drama is an integral part of Star Wars films. I just hope JJ Abrams hasn't forgotten to include humour in the new film coming out, everything seems pretty dramatic and grim in those teasers, those lighter touches are also really important in the SW films. Star Wars would have lost so much of its appeal without the fantastic bickering of the droids and banter between three main leads IMHO.

Mitch said:

First one needs to star with the best available version of the film

Does anyone have that?

If your are going to get serious ONE should start there.

I see no comparisons between different releases on caps-a-holic and the blu-ray releases in the majority of countries are by the same company, Warner Bros, so one can safely assume that they all use the same transfer.

Do you have a particular release in mind Mitch?

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

A thing that puzzled me is the fact that youtube comparison is linked by many sites, while other better, and finished, projects, made by members of this community, remain in the shadow...

@kk650: let's see who'll be able to finish it before the other! (^^,)

by the way, here you are the BD 3D Vs 2D:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/45349

That thought had crossed my mind as well but that sort of thing is happening all the time, inferior products with better marketing having much more fuss made over them than they deserve, while superior products that haven't had that marketing behind them, that are far more deserving of attention, are only known by a few.

I've found that time has a way of putting everything in its place, quality products like cream always rise to the top in the end, just like The Shawshank Redemption did, while overrated inferior products always end up being revealed for what they are in time, inferior, regardless of the buzz/amount of articles written about them.

You taking up this Man of Steel challenge as well Andrea? The more the merrier :)

I have actually been getting inundated with tons of requests to do Man of Steel because of that video. It looks i'm going to be doing a regrade of this :)

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

A 8GB would retain (obviously) the color regrade, but NOT (or, at least, not all) the grain - according to various tests I made with grain plate; I'm sure kk will agree with me... just my 2c!

I agree 100% Andrea, I don't think that the 8gb will do the regraining justice IMHO, the bitrate is simply not high enough, though of course it will still look better than the DNRed blu-ray.

The colour grading is another matter of course so the improved colours alone would be enough of a reason to warrant a 8gb release IMHO. If Jackpumpkinhead is still interested in an 8gb release I would be happy to create it.

kitt1987 said:

I can attest that Star Wars looks amazing with what he's done. I personally appreciate the larger file sizes for best picture quality and lossless audio!

Thank you kitt for your kind words, they mean a lot to me.

The first Star Wars film holds a very special place in my heart, it was the film that started me off with colour grading in the first place, so I wanted to get it just right both in terms of editing and colour grading.

I personally feel like I have reached that goal with the Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.2L, it is very gratifying that there are others apart from myself that feel that way.

For all those interested, i've just put up the regraded Once Upon a Time in the West V2 release (without Harmonica rising scene) I created on myspleen.

Harmy said:

I'm personally not too excited. There were some bits I liked and there were some I didn't. Some of the character moments were nice but in the last shot, it didn't click for me as seeing Han again, I just saw Harrison Ford, I don't know why and Chewie looks really weird too.

And the VFX shots reminded me of this video by MVerta about VFX shots grounded in reality, which was a hallmark of the original movies. The crazy camera moves, while cool, just don't read as reality. It looks sort of incogruent with not only the original movies but, from what we've seen so far, also with the live action in this new movie.

I actually totally agree with everything you said here Harmy, those were my exact thoughts as well when I saw new teaser, Chewie looks kinda plastic and his eyes remind me of the CG eyes of the Ewoks from the ROTJ SE, he looks very weird. There was also something about Harrison Ford in that shot that felt like he was playing himself rather than Han Solo.

The CG shots of the millenium falcon have me a little worried as well to be honest, it doesn't quite look real to me and I don't know why, the CG of ships in Guardians of the Galaxy looked far more convincing to me, I hope that by the end of the year the CG of the ships is at least at the level of GOTG. That combined with the insane OTT camera moves makes everything look a little too much like a video game cutsequence for my liking.

There was stuff I liked as well of course, that first shot with the partially buried star destroyer was fantastic IMHO, when Vader's helmet appeared I was grinning from ear to ear. Loved the Luke voiceover of course. Sets look great, nice and real, which is a massive improvement on the last two prequels. The new young actors look like they can actually act which is great as well.

Not a big fan of the new stormtrooper helmets, they look a little too non theatening to me (perhaps Disney wanted them to be more kid friendly?) to me in comparison to the more intimidating original trilogy helmets. There was the teal and orange colour scheme throughout but of course its early days and that will most likely chaange, I hope they go for a more naturalistic look for the final release.

Very happy that BB-8 is real, you can feel that he's real in that shot in the teaser and it really makes all the difference IMHO. That was my highlight during the celebration, when he came on stage, absolutely fantastic. Was I the only one that noticed how much he sounded like wall-e though?

All in all I am cautiously optimistic, its definately shaping up to be much better than the prequels, I just hope from now until the release they can ground the CG of the ships flying around a little more, dirty them up and make them look more substancial and real by the time its released theatrically. Fingers crossed that shot of Chewie will be improved so he looks more real and less plastic, the eyes need work so they look less weird and he could use a few grey hairs so he looks slightly older than in the Original Trilogy IMHO. In the shot from the teaser he looked even younger than he was in the OT.

Okay, here are some screencap comparisons for the two final Version 2 releases currently available on Myspleen, the Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.2L and the Regraded The Phantom Menace Regrained Edition V2, with Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith and the Empire Strikes Back Semi-Specialised Edition V2.2 coming very soon:

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Star Wars Semi-Specialised Edition V2.2L:

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Blu-ray 1:



Regraded 1:



Blu-ray 2:



Regraded 2:



Blu-ray 3:



Regraded 3:



Blu-ray 4:



Regraded 4:



Blu-ray 5:



Regraded 5:

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Regraded The Phantom Menace Regrained Edition V2

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Official Blu-ray 1:

Regraded and Regrained Edition 1:

Official Blu-ray 2:

Regraded and Regrained Edition 2:

Official Blu-ray 3:

Regraded and Regrained Edition 3:

Thanks for keeping everybody updated Jackpumpkinhead! If there's interest I could create a 8gb release of The Phantom Menace V2 as well.

I have just uploaded the new regraded and regrained V2 release of The Phantom Menace to myspleen. V2 regraded releases of Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith will be following very soon, as will the Empire Strikes Back Semi-Specialised Edition V2.2. I hope you all enjoy what i've done with these latest V2 regraded releases :)

kitt1987 said:

Delayed in providing feedback but we just finished finally watching the newest SW semi-specialized this past weekend and it's definitely the best we've got for this version until like everyone hopes that a proper 4k is released.  Great job on everything thus far and anxious to see the finished product for ESB and ROTJ!

Thanks kitt1987, fantastic to get some feedback on V2.2! With V2.2 Star Wars certainly looks the best I can make it look using the current blu-rays as the main source, very much looking forward to the 4k releases to get back to work again! :)

Just finishing up with John Wick and Gone Girl, then i'll get round to creating The Empire Strikes Back Semi-Specialised Edition V2.2, i've already finalised the settings so it shouldn't be long.

nightstalkerpoet said:

Hey, kk650 - did you add grain to ANH, and if so what grain plugin/settings are you using? Just watched all of ANH, and my only complaint is that the grain is a bit strong in it. Is there a chance that added grain is conflicting with any grain that is already present?

No grain was added to Star Wars, all the grain you're seeing there is straight from the blu-ray.

What you're seeing is the somewhat static 'frozen' grain that was added by Lowry when they restored the Original Trilogy in 2004 and ended up on the blu-rays, it lacks that organic constantly changing feel of natural film grain. Hopefully the 4k remasters of the OT when they come out will fix that and have a nice natural looking organic grain structure.

towne32 said:

kk650 said:

I'd also like to see what materialises in terms of 4k remastered releases of the SE original trilogy/unaltered original trilogy this year so I have a better idea of what sources are available and whether these Semi Specialised Editions should be redone using those improved 4k sources.

 It would be great. Obviously, first and foremost just to have the OOT would be amazing. But for anyone wanting to make a semi-specialized, the process would become very straight forward. We would probably end up seeing a ton, with everyone's slight preferences depicted (as with Superman II, for instance).

I hope it ends up being as straightforward as an editing job only but if modern blu-ray releases are anything to go by, I imagine something's going to be wrong with the colours again.

Fingers crossed they'll get the colours right this time and there'll be nothing to do in terms of colour grading but i've been burned so many times over the last few years with new blu-ray releases, especially 4k remastered releases, that I had high hopes for that now I always expect the worst.

I don't rule out creating bd25/bd50 versions of these Semi Specialised Editions at some point in the future but first i'd like to get the Cinema DTS tracks for the three OT movies done.

I'd also like to see what materialises in terms of 4k remastered releases of the SE original trilogy/unaltered original trilogy this year so I have a better idea of what sources are available and whether these Semi Specialised Editions should be redone using those improved 4k sources.

nightstalkerpoet said:

That's been my only issue with you releases is i have to reencode to make a disc. So i lose quality :-( 

mkvs are meant to have the black bars on the top and bottom removed. I've personally found from experience that removing the black bars also noticably increases the overall image quality of an encode of the same size.

I recommend using a laptop to stream directly onto your TV like I do or get a player like a patriot box office or popcorn hour to play mkvs natively, then you'll get to enjoy the encodes with as good quality as possible without any need for conversion.

Okay, just confirming that the new The Phantom Menace 20-21GB release will be regraded as well as regrained, i've just finalised the settings.

nightstalkerpoet said:

I've also found that rendering in x264 using tune grain and veryslow preset is amazing at saving those small details, though again smaller sizes still suffer some

I always use the slowest presets to get the highest image quality possible, that tune grain is an encoding option that I don't think the program I use allows you to change though.

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

Indeed kk, experience teaches a lot! (^^,)

And it's very rewarding to learn many things on your own, doing many tests, spending many time to tweak, fix, adjust any little bits here and there...

Yup thats pretty much how I learnt the majority of what I know as well, by simple trial and error, test, tweak, test, tweak, test, tweak ad infinitum haha :)