I'm reassured by the replies about the galactic situation - i.e. that rumours suggest my fears were unfounded. I feel a lot better about the whole endeavour now, but I'm still not too enamoured of seeing an ageing Han gallivanting about. However, for some reason the spin-off films seem a lot more promising to me.
Yeah, I find it really hard to be excited about the trailers. It's not down to one aspect in particular (although it all looks too "crisp" for my liking), but it was mostly just... OK, and I think it's partly because I'm worried about the overall direction of the movie (which I'll get to in a bit).
The Han and Chewie scene didn't bring a tear to my eye, I have to say. It seemed like really obvious manipulation to me, and it's the sort of thing that's been done thousands of times before (not with Han and Chewie, obviously, but in various things). I feel bad for saying that; I certainly don't want to take a great moment away from anyone (but I don't think by saying that I will), but I'm just being honest about my reaction.
Overall, I'm worried about the overall set-up of the film. I really hope the Rebels aren't still fighting the Empire, having never beat them. I don't mind an EU-type set-up, with the former Rebel Alliance being in control of the galaxy, but with (large) pockets of Imperial resistance (so the tables are turned). Or, perhaps they defeated the Imperials, but now a new Imperial-style resurgence has appeared. Or some other set-up I haven't thought of. But to have the Rebels never having won, and still fighting the Galactic government? I realise that this may be realistic for a galaxy-wide conflict, but it's incredibly depressing, and harms the optimistic feeling to the original films (makes the Rebellion seem futile, especially the last push to defeat the Emperor). I really hope this isn't the set-up. Star Wars is cool because it's positive; too many movies/TV are grimdark; let's leave the "realism/pessimism" to other properties.
It's also a little depressing that Han is still wearing the same old outfit when he's 70 (I know it's not exactly the same, but it's very much the same style). It's certainly possible he might do this, but it's just a bit sad. It's like he's gone nowhere all this time. I don't want to see him with a pipe and slippers, but something a bit more dignified, something to show he'd moved on, perhaps? I hope that in the film he has moved on, and he dons a Rebellion-era outfit for a specific purpose. Let's hope it's that, rather than him never having changed (figuratively or literally).
So I guess I'm not worried about anything explicitly shown in the trailers, but about what it may all mean. I wonder if the proper trailer will assuage some of my fears.
I'm sure it will be a better film than the prequels, though.
That's a good point - the background in the PT doesn't really matter to the characters, and it's hard to care about the war. I don't think it's just because we know what's going to happen. After all, I know what's going to happen (in great detail) when I watch the OT, but I care about the Rebel-Imperial conflict.
dan76 said:
he takes a path that the audience would also choose.
I think that's what Lucas was trying to do though. He wanted to portray a decent person who made reasonable choices that turned out to be the wrong ones. That's why he was still tinkering with Anakin's fall after shooting finished. It went from ideological/ethical reasons (Anakin thought the Jedi were evil) to personal ones (he wanted to save Padme); Lucas wasn't sure how to sell the idea to the audience. Unfortunately, what he settled on didn't really work, and the PT didn't pull this story off.
CO said:
In many ways, the Saga started at Episode II because that is when you get to the nitty gritty of the main characters, and that is the biggest flaw of the Prequels.
I agree. However, I can also see what Lucas was aiming at; he wanted to show someone who turned out "evil", who started out as a normal kid - but by degrees, he slowly got corrupted through choices that he thought were right at the time. It didn't really work, of course, for various reasons, but the goal makes sense.
Rox64 said:
The battle of Endor has sone inconsistencies and plot holes as well:
-(Something already addressed for the rebel transport ships escaping Hoth in ESB) space has infinite directions. How exactly the imperial fleet and the Death Star blocks all escape routes?
Later, Piett says the Emperor himself wants the imperial star destroyers to prevent the rebels from escaping rather than join the battle, because he has "something special planned for them". Then the Death Star fires its superlaser. Then Ackbar orders the fleet to retreat. So the rebels can escape? But I though they couldn't at that point.
At sublight speeds, presumably the Imperial ships would overrun the Rebels, so escape depends on plotting a relevant hyperspace course. Perhaps hyperspace routes can only be done along certain vectors, and enemy ships can block these?
Talking of costumes, it makes me think of the decision to have the Jedi wearing Tattoine robes; a fairly big mistake, I think.
Lucas was keen that audiences would recognise the Jedi as soon as they saw them, but I think he should have have a bit of faith in his own scene-setting skills, and in the audience's intelligence. In the end, this detail doesn't match up with the OT, even though Lucas was keen to have it all blend together. Maybe we wouldn't have had quite so silly Jedi haircuts either (but I won't go on about that again!).
Likewise, returning to Tattooine so that it "looks like Star Wars" was also a mistake - part of the "tiny universe where everything significant happens to the same small group of characters" problem. We should have had new, unique locations - Anakin shouldn't have grown up on Tattoine. Jabba shouldn't have been in it, etc.
I realise Fett was always connected to the Clone Wars, but he shouldn't have been in it as a child; better to change that bit of back-story rather than put in lame fan-pandering stuff that harms the character (although I did like the Jango-Kenobi fight; one of the few decent fights in the PT in my opinion). Other similar errors were having Chewbacca know Yoda, Anakin build 3PO, etc. All this stuff harms not just the PT, but the OT and thus Star Wars as a whole. You end up not just with one lousy film, but damage to the decent films in the series.
And if you're going to have lots of lightsabre use, spend a bit of time making sure the extras don't look inept/stupid holding them. I'm thinking of the minor Jedi in the arena battle (stupid poses and moves abound, even by PT standards) and the children in Yoda's classroom, who apparently would rather be doing anything rather than learning how to move a sabre. It all just seems so half-arsed. I know Lucas put a lot of effort into the PT, but a lot of it has a "that'll do" type feel.
Most of the above is "what they shouldn't have done", rather than "what they should have done", but I think avoiding the above would have at least helped the films get on the right track. In essence, it's about having a lot more faith in the SW universe, and not having to namecheck existing stuff ("hey! remember Chewie? here he is!" type of nostalgia). What we got was a peculiar kind of nostalgia-pandering that damaged the original thing you're meant to be feeling nostalgic about. There was already enough connection to the originals - Kenobi, Vader - we didn't need to see a prototype/young version of absolutely everything.
Actually, I think that in ANH, if Obi Wan went off to fight Vader (imagine they didn't need him to take down the tractor beam, and he wasn't distracting Vader, so he went off just to fight), it would still have been a great fight. So I don't think it's a great fight because Obi Wan was helping them escape.
It must be down to intangible factors - maybe the whole production style, the music, the acting, the pacing - that makes the ANH fight great, and the Menace one mediocre, despite the film-makers' best efforts to make it engaging.
Having though about this some more, I'm not sure a lack of history between the characters is the problem, really. From the minute we see Vader in ANH, he has presence as a villain. Maul is just a flashy martial artist with a stock movie villain voice, a painted face and a double-bladed sabre. He (IMO) has no villainous presence whatsoever (and I'm not sure why Vader works, but he does).
I suspect that if Vader and Obi Wan didn't know each other in ANH, and just had their slow sabre battle in silence, it would still have been more engaging than the Maul fight - but I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's as simple as Obi Wan giving the others a chance to escape - whereas in Menace, it's just a fight for the sake of it. Or perhaps it's just Alec Guinness's screen presence (and Vader's screen presence; as I said, IMO Maul's got nothing)?
I'd be very interesting to hear what everyone else thinks about this.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm only trying to explain my own (subjective) reaction. If you enjoyed it, that's cool. It's not a fact that it's bad, or anything like that.
Bingowings said:
The bulk of Star Wars duels is (as said earlier) banter being thrown around more than weight. At no point do the Jedi try and get any information out of the guy yet they are there to investigate him under orders from the council in the interest of the chancellor and the senate?
That's a very good point I'd never considered. Maul is the silent type, so - dull as it is - it's fair enough that he doesn't say anything during the fight. But the Jedi should at least try to get some information out of him. This was a missed opportunity to have some taunting/banter between the opponents.
The duels in the other PT films have their problems (in some cases serious ones), but they at least more enjoyable because the characters talk to each other (IMO - I realise many people think the PM duel is one of the best SW sabre fights).
Also, why didn't Obi-Wan check out Maul's ship for clues? Did it auto-destruct before he could do so? I can't remember now if this was ever shown/explained (pretty sure it wasn't), but it seems like a bit of a loose end; having him check it out - even if it blew up as he approached - would have mad the Jedi look a bit more competent/aware that something's going on. This lack of awareness/agency is a problem that gets worse in the next film when they don't figure out the rather obvious Jango/Dooku/Sifu-Dyas/Separatist/Clone order mystery. They seem oddly passive and uninvolved throughout the PT.
Alderaan said:
grainger said:
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
grainger said:
Qui-Gon seems to be pretty popular, even among people who don't like TPM. I always wondered what they are seeing in him.
He is supposed to be wise. But his most frequent line seems to be "I don't know".
A quote I really like from Data in ST:TNG, is that "I don't know" is the "beginning of wisdom". People are often afraid to admit when they don't know, so I'm with Qui Gon (and Data) on this one.
But the wise man is not the everyman character we identify with. He's wise for a reason.
You yourself and your buddy next to you might be wise to say "I don't know" but do you really want the guy with his finger on the nuclear control launch button not knowing what he's doing?
Fair point, but it depends what you're saying "I don't know" about. "Are we being attacked?" "I don't know" is a reasonable reply, until you've seen evidence that it's happening. Rather than saying "Yes - let's fire the nukes" when there's no evidence there.
Coming back to Qui Gon, though: I don't remember him saying "I don't know" - if it was in reference to Jedi skills or organisation, then I agree with you, it makes him look incompetent. If, however, it was about what was happening, and they really didn't know, then he's probably being wise. As long as the movie gives him a chance to show his wisdom in other ways - e.g. coming up with a reasonable course of action. Can you give an example of what he said he didn't know/
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
grainger said:
Qui-Gon seems to be pretty popular, even among people who don't like TPM. I always wondered what they are seeing in him.
He is supposed to be wise. But his most frequent line seems to be "I don't know".
A quote I really like from Data in ST:TNG, is that "I don't know" is the "beginning of wisdom". People are often afraid to admit when they don't know, so I'm with Qui Gon (and Data) on this one.
Qui-Gon seems to be pretty popular, even among people who don't like TPM. I always wondered what they are seeing in him. Maybe it does come from the EU? I don't see it in the movie either.
I think Neeson does a decent job with what he's given, and the character as written isn't actively bad - just a bit dull. Qui-Gon's one of the better Jedi characters in the prequels, come to think of it, but that's not saying much.
It was Batman Begins. I'm not a Batman Fan (except for the Adam West series), and it's the only Nolan Batman film I've seen. I don't like superheroes, and don't watch superhero movies; I was given the DVD and me and my partner were bored one evening decided to watch it. We didn't notice it was longer than War and Peace when we started the movie up.
A summary of our reactions, in no particular order:
Ryan McAvoy said:
grainger said:
To be fair, the force fields did show us a little about the Jedi characters - Qui Gon's patience vs Obi Wan's impetuousness
Another oddity of the writing, given that the entire movie up until that point was showing us that Qui Gon was impetuous and Obi Wan was patient.
Good point. My understanding was that originally Obi Wan was the only Jedi in the film - and was impetuous, to match what Ben said in the OT - and then it was re-jigged when Qui Gon was added; perhaps this is a remnant of that.
SilverWook said:
I would ask for a refund if I did walk because of a bad movie. I've noticed people seldom think they have the right to do so though.
Doesn't surprise me. People seem to accept bad movies. Mark Kermode's book The Good, the Bad and the Multiplex argues that it's almost impossible for bad films to lose money. Even if the film tanks at the box office (Waterworld), it eventually recoups it losses, and then turns a profit, on rentals and sell-through (Waterworld). I think an exception was comedies that aren't funny, but pretty much any serious film eventually turns a profit, even if it takes a decade. Not sure how true that will continue to be in an on-demand future, but it's an interesting phenomenon.
DuracellEnergizer said:
This picture
sucks.
It seems you come back as a Force ghost as the age you were when you died. But Anakin comes back at the age he was when he turned. So... if you want a long life, and to have your youthful form when you become a Force ghost, you should turn to the Dark Side, be evil for ages, and then, just before you die, throw another evil person down a reactor shaft (or push them under a hover bus). Then you get to come back as the age you were when you began your killing rampage. Sounds like a plan!
I haven't played or read much of the EU, but I have been far from impressed with what I've seen. Tales of the Bounty Hunters is a mixed bag - mostly pretty bad. I hated the tendency to give every minor character some Really Important Role in the big story (a wider EU problem) - e.g. IG88 merging with the Death Star II computer. Not sure how I felt about elderly Boba "arthritic knees" Fett and Han Solo trying to outwit each other by hobbling around a greenhouse. I'm sure there was worse, but I've blanked it out.
I never read the story, but I hate that Boba Fett escaped the Sarlaac only to fall in again (due to bad Jawa driving, as I understand it!). I thought that was hilariously bad. Already in stitches, I practically hit the floor when I found out it happened to him again after that in a later story. I suppose this is combines the problems of fan service and multiple authors working on one universe - all the characters end up with ludicrous life stories.
Most of all, though, I hate how badly the EU is written. I'd really like to read some good Star Wars fiction, so I tracked down Heir to the Empire - it's nearly universally agreed to be one of the very best (if not the best) stories of the EU. I found it to be terribly written, and with Thrawn being one of the biggest Mary Sue characters in professional writing (the first few pages are basically everyone saying how awesome he is; one subordinate wishes Thrawn was at the Battle of Endor leading the fleet instead of Vader because they'd definitely have won, etc. etc.!). The hubris is amazing.
I've never walked out of a movie, including the prequels. However, I have given up watching a movie on DVD because (one of the Nolan Batman films - it was awful, and about 1.5 hours too long). I'd probably have walked out of the cinema if I had been watching it there (probably not when I was younger, but I have a much lower tolerance of super-serious yet inane crap these days; also, my time is worth a lot more than my money - when I was younger, it was the other way around).
If the sequels turn out to be as bad as the prequels, I'll certainly walk out (after giving them a decent chance) - I'm not going to kid myself they must be good like I did with TPM. This is partly for the sake of anyone I'm with - I won't be able to resist quietly dissing them if I stay in the cinema, and that's not fair to anyone I'm with.
CO said:
While the duel is action packed, and John Williams music is great, it pretty much sums up what is wrong with the PT: There is nothing more to it then that. What makes a great duel from the OT was the action AND the dialogue, and Duel of Fates lacks any dialogue. In a sense, Lucas chose style over substance for the PT again.
To be fair, the force fields did show us a little about the Jedi characters - Qui Gon's patience vs Obi Wan's impetuousness, so there was an attempt to have some depth in the fight.
However, the scene didn't tell us anything meaningful about the conflict itself - both sides just agreed to fight each other because they were "the enemy". There was nothing personal at stake, and we knew absolutely nothing about Darth Maul - he was just a costume.
NeverarGreat said:
I was never much a fan of either the fight or the music, since they both seemed to have little to do with the rest of the movie.
Most people say this fight was a highlight of the movie, and I accept I'm in a minority, but I never liked it either. There were some ideas in it that I liked - the calm Qui Gon versus the impatient Obi Wan - but it was less than the sum of its parts. Perhaps because, as you say, it didn't integrate with the movie. It was more or less "he's our enemy, let's have a fight then", "yes, OK, I agree."
I never got the love for Darth Maul either. I didn't like his "is it a tattoo, face paint or alien skin?" style, and he hardly said anything, plus he had a stock "gruff movie villain" voice. I mean, doesn't he just say "yes, my Lord", and about one other line? Maybe he could have had a "Boba Fett" type appeal, but to me, he doesn't - he just doesn't do (or represent) anything as interesting as Fett did in Empire.
It's also not helped by the rest of the film. On first watching, I didn't care about any of the characters, so dull were they, so I felt nothing when Qui Gon died. I know he's one of the less egregious characters in the movie, but it's hard to root for "the slightly less annoying one".
As for the martial arts - they're well and good, but a little too flashy for my taste, and a fore-warning of the empty twirling that was to come. The OT didn't need them to have amazing fight scenes.
The music for the fight is good though - it took me years to realise it, but it's one of the better PT musical pieces.
DuracellEnergizer said:
grainger said:
DuracellEnergizer said:
grainger said:
Qui Gon and Obi Wan both have terrible hair
Qui-Gon has terrible hair?!
It's obvious you're just jealous of his thick, luxurious tresses.
I have very thick hair (barbers have commented on it!) and I used to have it very long. It's the "long at the back, short at the front" part that's the problem (I know he has it tied back, rather than cut short at the front, but it has much the same effect).
Seriously, many people (at least here in the UK) were laughing at Qui Gon's hair when the movie came out (for example, a newspaper article called the Jedi the "bad hair crusaders"); maybe it's just something that's cool in one country and not in another, which I suppose isn't Lucas' fault, but I can only bring my own perspective to it.
JFTR, my response was far from serious. =P
Oh, OK. After your post, it did occur to me that I don't know what hairstyles other posters have, and I might have caused great offence! For the record, I have a Bad Hair Life, because of the aforementioned thickness - it fights back!
DuracellEnergizer said:
grainger said:
Qui Gon and Obi Wan both have terrible hair
Qui-Gon has terrible hair?!
It's obvious you're just jealous of his thick, luxurious tresses.
I have very thick hair (barbers have commented on it!) and I used to have it very long. It's the "long at the back, short at the front" part that's the problem (I know he has it tied back, rather than cut short at the front, but it has much the same effect).
Seriously, many people (at least here in the UK) were laughing at Qui Gon's hair when the movie came out (for example, a newspaper article called the Jedi the "bad hair crusaders"); maybe it's just something that's cool in one country and not in another, which I suppose isn't Lucas' fault, but I can only bring my own perspective to it.
imperialscum said:
TPM I could still enjoy while I did not really like it that much. In ATOC Anakin was an annoying jerk right from the start so I was immediately annoyed by the film. But when on top of that he started to whine in a love scene, I knew that there is a zero chance I will ever enjoy this film.
The other thing is that (IMO), the Jedi look really stupid (I mean their appearance) in the prequels. Sure, everyone in ANH looks a bit seventies, but being of its time is to be expected, and that aesthetic is even fairly cool now anyway. But in Menace, child Anakin has the default "movie kid" haircut, Qui Gon and Obi Wan both have terrible hair, and it doesn't really get better until Sith, when at last it stops being about mullets and crew cuts with rat's tails. The more I think about it, the more it seems they couldn't get anything right at all in the prequels*. Compare this to Obi-Wan in the ANH, where he has a simple, dignified appearance. He'd never Phantom Menace style Jedi hair!
*Actually, to be fair, the sound in the prequels is really good, IMO. Star Wars has a very unique sound style to it, and the prequel sound designers did a good job of creating new sounds that felt like they belonged within the Star Wars universe, unlike much of the visual design, which (for me) didn't really feel at all like it was part of the same world.