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a_purist

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9-Aug-2020
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23-Sep-2020
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Post
#1374566
Topic
IMDB and sound mixes
Time

When we go to imdb.com and take a look at “Technical Specifications” we can find this (SOUND MIX):

Dolby, Dolby Stereo, Dolby SR, Dolby Digital, DTS…

I’d like to know the exact number of channels of each sound format to be sure that their blu-ray releases have the original mix. For instance, Robocop, 1987 (IMDB):

Sound Mix - Dolby SR (35 mm prints) | 70 mm 6-Track (70 mm prints) | DTS (special edition)

So, 70 mm (blow-up) 6 track, but, 35 mm? How many channels? Then, I went to blu-ray.com:

English: Dolby Digital 4.0 (Original) (Robocop)

Therefore, is Dolby SR always 4 channels? and what about the other sound formats? From what I understand…

Dolby = ?
Dolby Stereo = 4.0
Dolby SR = 4.0
Dolby Digital = 5.1
DTS = 5.1

One more example, Child’s Play, 1988 (IMDB):

Sound Mix - Dolby Stereo

Blu-ray (MGM):

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description


DTS-HD Master Audio English 3687 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 3687 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio English 224 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -4dB / Dolby Surround
Dolby Digital Audio Spanish 448 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps / DN -4dB
Dolby Digital Audio French 224 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -4dB / Dolby Surround
Dolby Digital Audio Portuguese 448 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 448 kbps / DN -4dB
Dolby Digital Audio English 224 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -4dB
Dolby Digital Audio English 224 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -4dB

  • Dolby Digital Audio English 224 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / DN -4dB

Blu-ray (Shout Factory)

AUDIO:

Codec Language Bitrate Description


DTS-HD Master Audio English 3660 kbps 5.1 / 48 kHz / 3660 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
DTS-HD Master Audio English 2095 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 2095 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB
Dolby Digital Audio English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB
Dolby Digital Audio English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB
Dolby Digital Audio English 192 kbps 2.0 / 48 kHz / 192 kbps / DN -4dB

I can’t see 4 channels. No release has included the original mix?

Post
#1369139
Topic
The Shining - 35mm print opportunity (a WIP)
Time

Thank you very much! Does that frame represent the final look?

The frame is 1260x1080 (1.16:1), if I’m not mistaken it would be the result of cropping, for example, the optical soundtrack… am I right?

If so, I guess you have to zoom the frames to fit 1.78:1 (1920x1080) and then masking for 1.85:1 (1920/1036).

I know that kind of things can be done with DaVinci Resolve but I have never scanned any film.

Post
#1368880
Topic
The Shining - 35mm print opportunity (a WIP)
Time

SilverWook said:

Laserdiscs were always dual channel regardless of the audio track. There was no 1.0 mode like DVD or Blu Ray. A mono track could be put on one channel to accommodate a commentary on the other, but a viewer would have to manually select either track or both would be heard at the same time. The addition of digital sound to the format in the mid 80’s allowed for four mono tracks, (two digital, two analog) but this was rarely done.

valien said:

a_purist said:
For this preservation, what would be more accurate? 2.0 or 1.0? In principle, both. But not for a film before… what year? I don’t know how you see it.

The two channels of the “dual mono” soundtrack are exactly the same, and the sound was intended to be reproduced by a single loudspeaker behind the screen at the center.
In a 2.0 setup, both 2.0 mono and 1.0 tracks would be reproduced the same way, i.e., the same signal coming from both loudspeaker. The impression would be that of a single phantom channel at the center. In a setup with three front channels (e.g., 5.1), 2.0 mono would be reproduced from L and R, while 1.0 from the center. So I believe the latter would recreate more faithfully the theatrical experience.

TheHutt said:

Nope, 2.0 mono would be also reproduced from the center. In a Dolby Surround system, if L and R are identical, they are routed to the center.

pipefan413 said:

TheHutt said:

Nope, 2.0 mono would be also reproduced from the center. In a Dolby Surround system, if L and R are identical, they are routed to the center.

This is broadly correct except that it isn’t quite handled that way by the current generation of Dolby’s upmixer/dematrixer (which is, perversely, simply called “Dolby Surround” even though that was the original name of the really basic home tech they used back even before Pro Logic was a thing). It seems the current DTS upmixer does route 100% to C (unless you’ve got the AVR set to LPF the low end out to your sub or whatever) but Dolby Surround actually sends mid-low sound via a LPF to the L and R speakers, with the majority (but not the whole thing) going to C.

This is presumably based on the hypothetically improved bass response of L and R speakers (which are potentially, though not necessarily, floor standing speakers) vs a C speaker (which is usually 2 woofers and a tweeter in a horizontal arrangement, with somewhat limited bass response and a focus on mids instead). In my setup, which has fairily mid-to-treble focused side speakers, this fails miserably and sounds ridiculous so I force the DTS mode instead for 2.0 dual mono and use “Direct” mode for 1.0 to route to C based on the number of channels alone with no fancy upmixer/dematrixer stuff being brought into it.

I didn’t know Laserdiscs were always dual channel, I’ve never had one. It’s very interesting. Whether you choose 1.0 or 2.0 I’m sure you’ll do the right thing.

By the way, as we know “The Shining” was shot in FullFrame, but how do we know the exact part of the frame that would be shown in the theatres? For example, Blu-ray and UHD releases are 1.78:1 (instead of 1.85:1) and despite having the same wrong aspect ratio, both have different framing.

Blu-ray:

UHD:

UHD has less information in the frame (up, down, right and left).

Post
#1368320
Topic
The Shining - 35mm print opportunity (a WIP)
Time

SilverWook said:

Possibly the Dolby Digital print has the 5.1 remix from the early 2000’s and an optical stereo track. I would think a dual mono track insured compatibility with projectors with a stereo sound head?

Dr. Cooper said:

That newer print has all audio-options: Optical Stereo (most likely Dolby SR), Dolby Digital, a DTS-Timecode and SDDS-sound.

Older Mono-prints just had one channel, I think from sometime in the 60s it became more common to use Dual Mono. Don’t know the exact reason, but SilverWook could be right that it had something to do with the upcoming popularity of Stereo-tracks and the soundheads used for them.

freedomland said:

http://www.film-tech.com/ubb/f1/t008255.html

Brian Dooda draw a very specific timeline when Mono and Stereo-tracks has been used and he backs it up with the noise-reduction types, which were used back in the days. In Conclusion Dr. Cooper nailed it with Dual-Mono and silver-wook with the compatibility of the sound system used in different theatres. 😃

You all are absolutely right. I found this:

-There had been experiments with stereo optical tracks, but there was too much noise to make that sound system worthwhile. But when Dolby Laboratories introduced Dolby A in 1965, a noise reduction method originally developed for professional recording studios, the movie industry saw an opportunity to reinvent the optical track.-

Then, before 1965 there could be no dual mono 35 mm prints. So it would be more accurate if sound films shot between 1927 and 1965 were released on Blu-ray and UHD with a DTS-HD Master Audio Mono (1.0) track (or LPCM) instead of the more usual 2.0.

With “The Shining” print (1980) I wonder what year dual mono 35 mm prints start to appear. Maybe it’s hard to determine the exact year, but there would be Blu-ray releases where a DTS-HD Master Audio Mono (2.0) (or LPCM) would be accurate because the 35mm prints already included 2 channels. Indeed, “The Shining” seems to have been released on LaserDisc with dual channel sound as we can see here:

For this preservation, what would be more accurate? 2.0 or 1.0? In principle, both. But not for a film before… what year? I don’t know how you see it.

Post
#1368078
Topic
The Shining - 35mm print opportunity (a WIP)
Time

friedcamera said:

I’ve been trying to color correct some of the clips using the open matte DVD as a reference.

Reel 7 Clip: https://we.tl/Vf3yTnMhfR

I used the LUT from this scene and then used it for another reel, made a few tweaks, and got this result:


Before and after:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/199191

When the LUT is applied to most of the other clips, the colors can get pretty close to the DVD. It’s far from perfect but it’s a start.

I have one important question. I’d like to understand one thing. As we can see, the picture shows the optical soundtrack but why those two bars?

For example, in Becky Sharp (1935) I only see one bar:

So, original 1980 mono soundtrack must be 1.0 or 2.0?

Post
#1368074
Topic
Info: Mono soundtracks that were butchered with 5.1 remixes in later releases
Time

Buster D said:

If I am not mistaken, in these cases it’s a duplicate. The left and right channels are identical (same track). I think that if it were 1.0 it should sound only from the center channel. Is there any advantage with 2 channels? Shouldn’t it always be 1.0?

2.0 tracks probably have better compatibility, for example my old Panasonic player outputs 1.0 PCM as 5.1 with only the center channel active, which works but is kind of weird.

That’s probably the reason but are all 2.0 tracks always a duplicate?

Post
#1367939
Topic
Info: Mono soundtracks that were butchered with 5.1 remixes in later releases
Time

Very interesting thread!

SilverWook said:

Worth noting the 2018 Criterion Blu-Ray release of Barry Lyndon has the original mono track.

As I have seen in many releases, Criterion includes the mono track always as 1.0, Olive Films too, but sometimes as 2.0. Why?

silverwheel said:

The other big problem with The French Connection’s surround mix is that the sounds effects, especially gunfire, are extremely loud compared to the music and dialogue. Thank heaven they had the good sense to include the mono (and to redo the color timing with Owen Roizman for the second Blu-ray release).

Here is a good example, I have seen the Blu-ray of “French Connection” but the mono track is 2.0.

If I am not mistaken, in these cases it’s a duplicate. The left and right channels are identical (same track). I think that if it were 1.0 it should sound only from the center channel. Is there any advantage with 2 channels? Shouldn’t it always be 1.0?

Post
#1367936
Topic
💡 <strong>Welcome to the OriginalTrilogy.com</strong>; Introduce yourself in here + useful info within 💡
Time

Hello, everybody!

I discovered this site several months ago and decided to join because this place made me (fortunately) a purist.

I think it’s a pity that many Blu-ray releases don’t keep the original look, aspect ratios (and soundtrack, something that is often forgotten) of the movies we like so much (Star Wars and many more) and I’ve realized the importance of all this thanks to originaltrilogy.com