ZkinandBonez

According to an interview with Adam Driver the Knights of Ren existed before Kylo/Ben became a member. Maybe, I’m not too sure what to take from this statement.

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2015/12/j-j-abrams-and-adam-driver-talk-about-kylo-ren.html

"So who are the Knights of Ren?"

"It was a group that existed before him, that he was a part of. Their place within everything is maybe more of a satellite group than I would say … This is really tricky."

Making this can’t have been an easy task though. Making TFA right was a near impossible task to achieve. Make it too similar and people complain. Make it too original and people complain. The Starkiller thing isn’t a particularly good idea, but cinematically it works fine. Rey’s sudden growth with the Force is weird and rushed, but cinematically it worked fine. Also it would have been hard to sell this new trilogy if she spent three films learning at the same snail pace as Luke did. Also I think people would have complained then as well, because it too would have been something we’ve already seen. Regardless of how much some people hate the PT, and how indifferent Abrams seems to be towards it, they’ve made their mark on the franchise and that can’t be ignored.

I’d love to know how much creative control Abrams had over the cut once they started cutting down the 4 hour version. It wouldn’t surprise me if some Disney studio executive came in and told them to focus on the action, and only keep the bare necessities on the more emotional, character building parts.

It’s also kind of funny that we’re actually arguing about this at all, because no one’s ‘really’ disagreeing here. On some smaller, nitpicking points yes, definitely, but mostly we’re all in agreement. We all just seem to lean towards either accepting the strategic/unavoidable flaws, or condemning them.
More or less every review here, at least those that’s more than one paragraph, have pointed out the same flaws. People just deal with them in very different ways.

cyclista said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Alderaan said:
Remember Han telling Chewie to take care of her after he was gone in Empire? How the fuck did that get missed?! That’s just another bullshit example of Disney trying to force new characters on us. They want to pass the torch from Leia to Rey, and that’s fine. I’m all down for that. But make it happen naturally in the fucking story universe. Don’t give us a lazy, incompetent plot, and then just put two characters together at the end who don’t even know each other.

That was three decades ago, in a very, very different situation. When he said that she was a prisoner of Vader in Cloud City and Luke was running into a trap. It was a moment of great hopelessness.
Thirty years later in TFA Leia is general, and I don’t think she needs a Wookiee to follow her around while all the time at this point, especially now that she’s surrounded by hundreds of soldiers 24/7. Also Han came “back-to-life” in ROTJ so I think that “deal” stopped counting then.

You’re forgiven for not actually reading my absurdly long post. The topic wasn’t some guardianship debt or other; it was the utter disregarding of friendship ties between Leia and Chewie specifically regarding what would certainly been a sharing of grief over Han’s death. Chewbacca and Leia loved Han more than anyone else did, and the movie just completely blanked on what without question would have a strong bond - unless we hear later from Leia something like “yeah, I never actually liked Chewie, I just hung out with him because of Han” which would be FUCKING AWFUL.

Well, as many have already pointed out, there seems to be A LOT of important information that didn’t make the final cut of this film. At least we got Leia’s Force moment and Chewie’s sad/angry roar (and even a little sad moment later on). Not much, but SW has a tendency to brush past the sad stuff and prioritize the action. But I’m sure that there will be a deleted scene on the Blu-ray where this is addressed. The novelization might already have covered it.

Alderaan said:
It felt like Rey was reaching into the audience and using our film knowledge from previous movies to teach herself something she otherwise didn’t know and had no way of knowing. I’m sure they will retcon this in the next film and say she was trained as a little girl and had her memory erased, but that’s just so lazy that I find it offensive.

Well she did know the “stories” that more or less is the events of the OT. Since we know very little of what’s going on in the galaxy in this part of the canon, it’s hard to say how many details she knew. However, she did refer to the Falcon having done the Kessel run in 14 parsecs. Ok, she got the number wrong, but that’s still a very specific detail for her to know. It seems that Luke, Han, Leia, etc. have become quite the folk-tales in the last 30 years.

Alderaan said:

ZkinandBonez said:
Also, there’s two-ish years between ANH and ESB, in which he only had himself to train with. He had no practical fighting experience until he faced Vader. And there were only a few months that passed between ESB and ROTJ.

Three years between Empire and Jedi.

And regardless of the time interval, the exposition was clear that Luke’s power had grown immensely between the two films.

I just checked the timeline, and it seems like we’re both wrong. There’s 1 year between ESB and ROTJ, and 3 years between ANH and ESB.

Also, the film, and even Rey verbally, points out how Kylo is not as good as Darth Vader.

Alderaan said:
Remember Han telling Chewie to take care of her after he was gone in Empire? How the fuck did that get missed?! That’s just another bullshit example of Disney trying to force new characters on us. They want to pass the torch from Leia to Rey, and that’s fine. I’m all down for that. But make it happen naturally in the fucking story universe. Don’t give us a lazy, incompetent plot, and then just put two characters together at the end who don’t even know each other.

That was three decades ago, in a very, very different situation. When he said that she was a prisoner of Vader in Cloud City and Luke was running into a trap. It was a moment of great hopelessness.
Thirty years later in TFA Leia is general, and I don’t think she needs a Wookiee to follow her around while all the time at this point, especially now that she’s surrounded by hundreds of soldiers 24/7. Also Han came “back-to-life” in ROTJ so I think that “deal” stopped counting then.

Alderaan said:

ZkinandBonez said:

As for the whole thing about Rey defeating Kylo in a lightsaber suel. Aren’t we forgetting that Luke never had any lightsaber sparring training what-so-ever. He learned to block some laser-bolts from a small harmless droid by Obi-Wan, and then he ran around in a swamp with Yoda on his back learning mostly levitation and some Jedi philosophy. Even if you count the novelization or the deleted scenes as canon all the lightsaber training he did with Yoda was cutting a few metal rods throws into the air. I also seem to recall that he didn’t do that well on that test.
Aren’t we kind of judging this film by PT logic? That it’s the moves that count, not the use of the Force. Pre-PT material often put a lot more of a focus on the importance of channeling the Force and fining inner peace and control, which is exactly what Rey did in TFA. A lot of the mystical elements of the lightsaber was lost in the PT, but Kasdan and Abrams seem to have brought it back here.

Luke got his ass kicked by Vader. Then he trained for three more years to finally become a Jedi. Where and how he trained nobody knows, but it’s nice to have movies that don’t spoon feed you everything, and allow you to fill in the blanks yourself. The only relevant exposition needed at the start of Jedi was that Luke’s powers had grown immensely since the previous film.

Even then, Luke wasn’t able to defeat Vader until he used the dark side of the force in their last battle.

Luke lost yes, but he still gave Vader a run for his money, even to the point of wounding him slightly. Also, there’s two-ish years between ANH and ESB, in which he only had himself to train with. He had no practical fighting experience until he faced Vader. And there were only a few months that passed between ESB and ROTJ.
The OT was more focused on the Force rather than sparring skills. And yes, Luke only won in ROTJ because he used the Dark Side. But that seems to be what the OT went for, Force skills over dueling moves. Vader and Luke won because they used their aggression to overpower and frighten their opponent, and Rey as well as Obi-Wan (before he let himself get killed) used calmness to channel the Force in order to win/survive.

I haven’t’ actually red the novelization of ANH, but I recall from the comic adaption(s) that it talked about how they channeled the Force through their blades. Even before the ESB fight, Lucas had a pretty decent excuse for the slowness of the fight. It’s more of duel of wills then sword-waving-skills. If Rey managed to find her inner calmness, then purely as a fight of wills and Force strenght it’s really not that weird that she managed to defeat the wounded, angry, emotionally conflicted, and even somewhat frightened, Kylo Ren. And she’s proven that she has some skills with a melee weapon before (e.g. her staff).

As for the whole thing about Rey defeating Kylo in a lightsaber suel. Aren’t we forgetting that Luke never had any lightsaber sparring training what-so-ever. He learned to block some laser-bolts from a small harmless droid by Obi-Wan, and then he ran around in a swamp with Yoda on his back learning mostly levitation and some Jedi philosophy. Even if you count the novelization or the deleted scenes as canon all the lightsaber training he did with Yoda was cutting a few metal rods throws into the air. I also seem to recall that he didn’t do that well on that test.
Aren’t we kind of judging this film by PT logic? That it’s the moves that count, not the use of the Force. Pre-PT material often put a lot more of a focus on the importance of channeling the Force and fining inner peace and control, which is exactly what Rey did in TFA. A lot of the mystical elements of the lightsaber was lost in the PT, but Kasdan and Abrams seem to have brought it back here.

Well, I’m looking forward to watching this evolve into another 200+ pages thread filled with wild speculations, nitpicking, and theories.
Now that we have an actual film as a reference point I’m sure the theories will be even more nitpicky and crazy than before.
Is it weird that I’m genuinely looking forward to going through this two more times?

hydrospanner said:

Anyone think we will see that Scottish guy from that scene again? I noticed he survived and was the one to inform the First Order that he found the droid they were looking for.

I guess that all depends on how much Rian Johnson liked the character. The Ep. VIII script has already been written though, and from what I’ve gathered Abrams and Kasdan has had very little influence over it. But it’s hardly impossible.

Yoda Is Your Father said:

ZkinandBonez said:
I can’t remember hearing Snoke’s “there’s been an awakening” line in the film.

In the film, Kylo says to Snoke ‘There has been an awakening, have you felt it?’ and Snoke responds in the affirmative.

Wasn’t it Snoke who said it in the first teaser though?

Anchorhead said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Anchorhead said:

I forgot, but was Chewie with Rey as she went to see Luke?

Both Chewie and R2 went with her.
BB-8 wasn’t there as he (it?) was reunited with Poe. I’m getting the feeling that Rey will inherit not only the Falcon, but that R2 and Chewie will become her companions in the next films.

This 1977 fan would like that a great deal. I’d prefer BB-8, but I understand. He doesn’t belong to her.

I’m pretty positive we’ll see a lot of him in the next two films, but not so much with Rey anymore. I wonder if R2 and BB-8 will be the new droid duo, since C-3PO got more screen time in this film, as well as being Leia’s droid. Also I don’t think Anthony Daniels would be quite up to the task of performing in that suit quite as much as he did in the OT. They could always replace him, and simply have him dub the voice later, but three droids would be a bit too much.

TK428 said:

ZkinandBonez said:

TK428 said:

The more I think about it, if you take out “The Rathtars” scene from the film, I almost think it’s as perfect as it could be.

What was wrong with the Rathars? They’re essentially just over-sized Mynocks with tentacles. They’re sure as hell not that much weirder than what we’ve seen before. Heck, just look at the creatures in the Falcon’s holochess;
https://photos-5.dropbox.com/t/2/AAD90GATU03on9mIqHZkbXWQsy8QAcOUT5OIonwPN9Zkyw/12/20535561/png/32x32/1/_/1/2/SW VII BTS holochess Tested (1).png/EOTRsQ8Y-wYgASgB/zi6gj2z84SZEORXVQxC7oPqBfmWN0sm_ArGpMhYeMjQ?size=1024x768&size_mode=3

EDIT: Or are you talking more about the pacing?

Pacing. That scene just took me out of the movie completely for a moment.

Yeah, it was a bit forced. But then again so was a lot of moments in the film. But the Rathars scene, like most of them, was pretty fun and Star Warsy, so I personally don’t really mind.

TK428 said:

The more I think about it, if you take out “The Rathtars” scene from the film, I almost think it’s as perfect as it could be.

What was wrong with the Rathars? They’re essentially just over-sized Mynocks with tentacles. They’re sure as hell not that much weirder than what we’ve seen before. Heck, just look at the creatures in the Falcon’s holochess;
https://photos-5.dropbox.com/t/2/AAD90GATU03on9mIqHZkbXWQsy8QAcOUT5OIonwPN9Zkyw/12/20535561/png/32x32/1/_/1/2/SW VII BTS holochess Tested (1).png/EOTRsQ8Y-wYgASgB/zi6gj2z84SZEORXVQxC7oPqBfmWN0sm_ArGpMhYeMjQ?size=1024x768&size_mode=3

EDIT: Or are you talking more about the pacing?

hydrospanner said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Bosk said:

TavorX said:

Bosk said:
Okay I’ll have a go, luke will train rey in the force (even though shes picked it up!)

I’m not sure why you’re nitpicking this. Luke used the Force in A New Hope to blow up the Death Star.

After having a quick training session by ob1… Yes. Rey just decided she could use it by closing her eyes mid battle

Well, she had heard the “stories” of Luke Skywalker and the rest of the gang, and she even seemed to know a fair amount of details. Although she said 14 parsecs to Solo rather than 12, that’s still a pretty specific detail. Her closing her eyes and finding the inner peace to defeat Kylo isn’t that weird in my opinion. Her knowing how to do a mind trick however, is a tad weirder. Then again, she might have heard of the trick before, but never considered the possibility that it was real, let alone available for her.

Also, what happened to the whole “awakening” in the Force thing? Wasn’t that supposed to be part of the plot, or where those just marketing blurbs?

It also is quite likely and seems hinted at that she had some force training as a small child before she was left on Jakku that she repressed and started to rediscover as the movie went along. Also, if you think about it someone had to learn how to use the force on their own at some point before they could teach it to others, no?

That’s a good point. And all the “stories” must have been quite a good set of hints on how it worked as well.

Also I guess her “awakening” with the Force is why the film’s called “The Force Awakens”? Or was there some other “awakening” that I missed? I can’t remember hearing Snoke’s “there’s been an awakening” line in the film.

Bosk said:

TavorX said:

Bosk said:
Okay I’ll have a go, luke will train rey in the force (even though shes picked it up!)

I’m not sure why you’re nitpicking this. Luke used the Force in A New Hope to blow up the Death Star.

After having a quick training session by ob1… Yes. Rey just decided she could use it by closing her eyes mid battle

Well, she had heard the “stories” of Luke Skywalker and the rest of the gang, and she even seemed to know a fair amount of details. Although she said 14 parsecs to Solo rather than 12, that’s still a pretty specific detail. Her closing her eyes and finding the inner peace to defeat Kylo isn’t that weird in my opinion. Her knowing how to do a mind trick however, is a tad weirder. Then again, she might have heard of the trick before, but never considered the possibility that it was real, let alone available for her.

Also, what happened to the whole “awakening” in the Force thing? Wasn’t that supposed to be part of the plot, or where those just marketing blurbs?

Anchorhead said:

I forgot, but was Chewie with Rey as she went to see Luke?

Both Chewie and R2 went with her.
BB-8 wasn’t there as he (it?) was reunited with Poe. I’m getting the feeling that Rey will inherit not only the Falcon, but that R2 and Chewie will become her companions in the next films.

hydrospanner said:

ZkinandBonez said:

pablumatic said:

hydrospanner said:

Why were they able to see the Hosnian system get destroyed from Takodana? You’d think they’d be right on top of each other for that to make sense… but according to the new maps of the galaxy there is some considerable distance between the two systems.

I assume it will never be explained, but I will go ahead and say the hyperspeed laser light reaches other systems much faster than regular light. So its possible to see it as it happens.

Maybe it should have been pinpoints of light rather than a fireworks show, but that’s Star Wars for you.

Well, SW isn’t exactly knows for being scientifically accurate. Heck, one of the things that convinced Irvin Kershner to direct ESB was that he wouldn’t have to pay attention to any scientific accuracy at all.
This is after all a universe held together by magic, and where space-ships make pretty loud noises in the vacuum of space. All time doesn’t seem to be in any way affected by gravity, or light-speed, so it’s essentially just Middle-Earth in space.
I do however think that they should have made the beam and explosion a tad smaller. More of an illustration, rather than being so blatant. Apparently it’s a lot smaller in the novelization.

I guess my issue with it is the planet looks bigger than Mars would to us while they are watching it get destroyed and it is supposed to be happening on the other side of the galaxy. If it was established that they were neighboring systems it wouldn’t bother me if it looked too big, it just seems like too much of a stretch how they portray it given what we know about the locations of these systems in the galaxy.

Oh, I agree that it looks kind of weird, and that it definitively could have been done in a somewhat subtler way. I’m just not considering it a “flaw” in the general sense, and I’m not going to linger on it. The again, I’m sure we’ll get some fan edit that’ll shrink it down a bit at some point. Either way though, I don’t really care.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Adam Savage (Mythbusters) interview with Phil Tippet and BTS video of the making of the stop-motion holochess in TFA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sexd06I8mzg

SilverWook said:
If that was Coruscant that blew up, they forgot the ever present air traffic it had in the prequels. At least I didn’t see any.

Apparently it was a planet called Hosnian Prime; http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hosnian_Prime

pablumatic said:

hydrospanner said:

Why were they able to see the Hosnian system get destroyed from Takodana? You’d think they’d be right on top of each other for that to make sense… but according to the new maps of the galaxy there is some considerable distance between the two systems.

I assume it will never be explained, but I will go ahead and say the hyperspeed laser light reaches other systems much faster than regular light. So its possible to see it as it happens.

Maybe it should have been pinpoints of light rather than a fireworks show, but that’s Star Wars for you.

Well, SW isn’t exactly knows for being scientifically accurate. Heck, one of the things that convinced Irvin Kershner to direct ESB was that he wouldn’t have to pay attention to any scientific accuracy at all.
This is after all a universe held together by magic, and where space-ships make pretty loud noises in the vacuum of space. Also time doesn’t seem to be in any way affected by gravity, or light-speed, so it’s essentially just Middle-Earth in space.
I do however think that they should have made the beam and explosion a tad smaller. More of an illustration, rather than being so blatant. Apparently it’s a lot smaller in the novelization.

Alderaan said:

SilverWook said:

Did you miss the part where Finn needed someone to fly the Tie Fighter? (Not having flight training is a good way to prevent defections.) And I doubt the New Order bothers treating troops who go mental in the hopes they return to duty. They probably just shoot them.

If he did so well in training that he was placed immediately into an elite unit (with no prior experience), would they really be so quick to kill such a valuable commodity? 😉

Well, Darth Vader used to murder generals for making fairly small mistakes (in the grander scope anyway). That could hardly have been beneficial for the Empire.

Max_Rebo said:
One of my biggest problems is several populated worlds are destroyed, Leia feels it through the force, so you’ve got to assume Luke felt it, yet he does nothing, just stays on his island waiting for someone to solve his map puzzle. I would hope that might bring him to his senses and make him take action, but maybe he was too far away to feel it through the force?

He probably felt it. But then again he was hiding from the war so it seems unlikely that it that would prompt him to leave. It’s hard to tell what was up with the whole map thing, but I don’t think he really wished to be found.

There was some talk about Imperial maps, so it might be that Sydows character somehow solved where the temple was based on these maps?

Max_Rebo said:
What happened to the poison gas? I may have missed it but I don’t remember anyone re-fixing the poison gas leak.

Well, Finn asked Rey if she could un-fix it and use it as a trap, so it was definitely fixed at some point.

Max_Rebo said:
Hyperdrive now seems to be instantaneous to get anywhere, or maybe they just didn’t travel very far, there were no travelling scenes, just felt wrong. But it’s hard to know how far they travelled as we are never told where Jakku is in relation to anything else.

That bothered me as well. But then again SW has never been very consistent about the length of hyperspace travel. But, I think the planets in the film are fairly close, so that might be the explanation.

EDIT: It kind of depends on what you call close.
http://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/news/news-00091614-star-wars-galaxy-map.jpg

Max_Rebo said:
Why did Captain Phasma have authority to drop the shields for the whole planet, and why did nobody notice that it had happened?

Well, it wasn’t the entire planet. Just the oscillator thingy that was a weak spot. They essentially removed the shield covering the Starkiller equivalent of the exhaust port in ANH.

hydrospanner said:

ZkinandBonez said:

According to Micheal Arndt it was something BB-8 said to R2 that woke him up.

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2015/12/j-j-abrams-lawrence-kasdan-and-michael-arndt-reveal-new-secrets-about-the-force-awakens.html

“…but the idea was that in that scene where R2 plugged in, he downloaded the archives of the Empire, which was referenced by Kylo Ren,” Abrams said. Thirty-eight years later, in both our own and galactic time, that data becomes useful in The Force Awakens when a new droid approaches the dormant R2.

“BB-8 comes up and says something to him, which is basically, ‘I’ve got this piece of a map, do you happen to have the rest?’” Abrams said. “The idea was, R2 who has been all over the galaxy, is still in his coma, but he hears this. And it triggers something that would ultimately wake him up.”

I thought it had something to do with either Rey or the saber returning. Didn’t BB-8 communicate that he had part of the map to R2 earlier and nothing happened? Then when Rey shows up he powers up almost immediately.

Well, this is Arndt speaking. A lot happened to the script when Abrams and Kasdan took over. So you might want to take this information with a grain of salt.