ZkinandBonez

I always stick to the old Godard quote; “it’s not about where you take it from, but where you take it to.” And ANH borrowing ideas from everything from Kurosawa, to Flash Gordon is great because Lucas took old tropes and concepts and made something new from it. However, when it’s SW reusing exact plot points from SW then it’s different. It doesn’t necessarily make it bad, but it’s very different. F.ex. (SORT-OF SPOILERS) I thought that Rey was a very good re-imagining of Luke in ANH because it took it somewhere new. Starkiller on the other hand didn’t really add anything new of any plot value. I don’t dislike it, but I can’t call I brilliant. It works, but it works in a very different kind of way.

Well, you could argue that there’s a limit on how much, or how many times you could steal an idea. ANH may have borrowed from everyone, and that’s what makes it so good. However TFA borrowed entire plot points, not to mention that it’s SW stealing from itself.
However, I really liked TFA. But it’s a tad too casual an action film for me to be any more than a 6/10. I also don’t put any SW above 8, ROTJ took a bit more time with the plot so for me it’s a 7/10. Now if I was rating these films 1-100 I’d probably give ESB an 85 and TFA an 65.
I really do have to stick to the claim that the way ANH borrowed ideas is noticeably different from what TFA did. That doesn’t make it bad, but for me it doesn’t make it better.

Bosk said:

ZkinandBonez said:

TV’s Frink said:

ZkinandBonez said:

People here really do have drastically different personal rating systems.
I personally would give TFA a 6/10, but whereas that’s a bad rating for someone here, for me that’s a pretty decent rating. Citizen Kane is a 10/10 for me, and something like the Avengers; dumb, but not necessarily stupid and without a plot, and definitely entertaining and funny, is a 5/5.

What.

What?
Are you objecting to my rating of the SW movies, or my other examples?

I think your jump from ratings out of ten to ratings out of 5 threw him? But comparing Citizen Kane to TFA is like comparing a Picasso to a child’s drawing.

Right, yeah I might have been a bit leaniant towards what makes a 5/5 film. My point was that a 5 is average. Nothing special, but not necessarily bad. Casual filmmaking simply trying entertain. TFA had more of a point to it, but is too unoriginal and action oriented to go above a 7. Therefore I gave it a 6. The PT has many cinematic flaws so I’m pushing them down to either 4 or 3.

EDIT: I just realised I had written 5/5 instead of 5/10. I’ve fixed it now.

TV’s Frink said:

ZkinandBonez said:

People here really do have drastically different personal rating systems.
I personally would give TFA a 6/10, but whereas that’s a bad rating for someone here, for me that’s a pretty decent rating. Citizen Kane is a 10/10 for me, and something like the Avengers; dumb, but not necessarily stupid and without a plot, and definitely entertaining and funny, is a 5/5.

What.

What?
Are you objecting to my rating of the SW movies, or my other examples?

Bosk said:

Alderaan said:

It’s really hard to decide which is the worst Star Wars character in history now, Jar Jar or Phasma? At least Jar Jar was a genuine character, even if wildly inappropriate and hopelessly annoying. Even the Ewoks were cute and had their emotional little moments.

Phasma’s only purpose in the entire ******* film was to lower the shields for the resistance. That’s it. Just imagine an imperial officer whose only function was to lower the shields on Endor and say “you’re gonna regret this!”

I think her role was to sell action figures, ‘chrome trooper’, such a shame.

Don’t forget that they cut roughly 20 minutes from TFA just prior to its release. And a few months ago the film was 4 hours long.

People here really do have drastically different personal rating systems.
I personally would give TFA a 6/10, but whereas that’s a bad rating for someone here, for me that’s a pretty decent rating. Citizen Kane is a 10/10 for me, and something like the Avengers; dumb, but not necessarily stupid and without a plot, and definitely entertaining and funny, is a 5/10.

On a scale from 1-10; 10 being on the level of a Kubrick or Orson Welles film, and 1 being more of an Ed Wood type of film where it barely qualifies as a film, I’d give the 7 SW films these ratings:

ESB & ANH - 8/10
ROTJ - 7/10
TFA - 6/10
TPM, AOTC & ROTS - 3-4/10
(Apart from a fan-edit of TPM, I haven’t seen the PT in nearly ten years so I’m not too sure how I’d rate them as movies. Also I’d probably rate ESB as an 85 if I was following the system mentioned in the first post on this thread.)

Why not both?
Also his moment with Poe in the corridor about needing a pilot does suggest that he was mostly interested in running away, at least at that point in the story. However at Kanata’s castle he did talk about having made the choice to not kill for the FO. So I’d say his motivations covered both poins.

TavorX said:

Then, I stumbled upon some TFA fanart, …

This picture made me chuckle;

“Phasma’s crappy day”

SpilkaBilka said:
Not huge things, but I also wasn’t really a fan of 1) First Order spies being there, 2) a Resistance spy being there, and 3) Finn seeking transport with a couple guys like Ben and Luke were trying to do in ANH.

I actually thought that was a really clever way to show us that the Resistance and the First Order are on a pretty equal footing in the galaxy at this point in history. That is as apposed to the OT where the Rebels were a small group of freedom fighters, and the Empire spanned the galaxy. Now, thirty years later, they are two more or less equally sized military forces, each with their own spy-network.
(It’s also a decent plot-reason for having the Resistance show up to save the day during the FO attack.)

SilverWook said:

ZkinandBonez said:

The real question is if they’ll actually call him Plageuis, or if he’ll just make some vague comment about having trained Palpatine.
Either way, I won’t really mind if it’s dealt with in the proper fashion.

But if he actually is Plageuis, why the whole Knights of Ren thing? Isn’t Plageuis supposed to be a Sith?

Kylo could have formed his band of knights before meeting Snoke. As we only see them in the Force vision, do we even know these guys are still alive?

That Snoke likes to appear as a 50 foot hologram, (and Kylo apparently is the only one we know that’s met him in person) makes me wonder if he’s pulling a Balok.

I like the Balok idea, and that would kind of make sense. Of course he could be trying to fool Hux instead, or it could be both. He seems old and weak, so it would make sense that he would try and appear stronger than he is. Also, in a recent “review” of the TFA novelization it was pointed out that Snoke appears to fear Luke, and that the Starkiller Base attack on the Resistance base is rushed and seemingly desperate. We could end up with a very frail and weak villain operating everything behind the curtains.

However, Kylo/Ben did not form the Knights of Ren according to a recent interview with Adam Driver. He describes them as a group that existed before his fall to the dark side.

I get the impression that a lot of people here had the reverse reaction to what you just described.
I didn’t really like it the first time I saw it. Second time however, once it had all sunk in, I appreciated it a lot more. I think the biggest flaw of the PT was that they weren’t really any fun. They were boring, slow and contrived. All 7 movies have had some pretty ludicrous ideas and plot-points, but I would argue that the PT actually failed cinematically.

Also, no one, or at least very few people, here on the forum have hailed it as the “best movie ever!” People seem to either say “it had flaws, but I really liked it,” or “it had flaws, therefore I really don’t like it.”

The real question is if they’ll actually call him Plageuis, or if he’ll just make some vague comment about having trained Palpatine.
Either way, I won’t really mind if it’s dealt with in the proper fashion.

But if he actually is Plageuis, why the whole Knights of Ren thing? Isn’t Plageuis supposed to be a Sith?

Oh, sure, I wasn’t really making a statement of any kind. I just wanted to point that I thought he looked kind of similar. Although Snoke is my least favorite part of the film, I don’t really have a problem with him. He hasn’t really done enough for me to justify an opinion either way. I just think it’s kind of funny that the new Andy Serkis character in SW looks so much like a Weta Workshop CGI character. I wonder if that was an unintentional subconscious decision.

cyclista said:

Alderaan said:

There is a science to the way names sound. I forget what it’s called. Vader was not only a great villain, but his name sounded perfect. Vader. Intimidating. Succinct. Hard to forget, and very appropriate.

Another great example I can think of is Anne Stanton in All The King’s Men.

Unfortunately, it seems this science is being lost on younger generations. Snoke doesn’t do it for me. I can’t really explain it, and I wonder if anyone can help out here. But even besides the terrible CGI design, the name just doesn’t elicit fear. And as we all heard, it sounded pathetic when Leia and Han said it in TFA.

I felt it was an attempt to borrow from Harry Potter. “Snape” for instance. In that universe it would sound more correct, but in this one, yeah, it sounds a bit cute-ish. I might name a mischievous kitten Snoke.

I’ve previously thought they might be trying to invoke a kind of Voldemort-ish dynamic, which is a somewhat appropriate comparison, naming conventions aside.

I though he looked kind of like a very old Azog; http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Azog-the-Defiler.png

ZkinandBonez said:

Oh, and btw, did anyone notice that the Jedi student that Rey witnessed being murdered by Kylo in her Force-flashback was wearing one of these hats;

Why do these hats keep popping up? Is this just a new design that Disney really likes for some reason? Is there some meaning to these hats that I don’t know about because I haven’t watched Clone Wars or Rebels?

The next shot is also very brief, and although I noticed quite a large amount of dead bodies on the ground (Luke had a lot of students at some point, so no wonder he feels so bad), I also noticed the silhouette of a building in the background when the lightning struck. However, it goes by so fast I doubt you can really see it without pausing the video, so I guess we’ll have to wait for the Blu-ray release.

SilverWook said:

It went by so fast I thought it was one of these…

After all, Anakin did use that sword too.
Everything Rey saw in her vision seems to be from Empire onwards though.

It’s possible, but why would anyone wear it in the middle of a battle/attack. I’m pretty sure it was supposed to be someone from the massacre on Luke’s students. He also seemed like an adult, or at least a teenager, and he was stabbed by Kylo’s fizzy lightsaber. It was also in the same rainy environment, and the shot cut immediately to the shot from the trailer of the Knights of Ren; https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20535561/SW VII The Knights of Ren.jpg

Oh, and btw, did anyone notice that the Jedi student that Rey witnessed being murdered by Kylo in her Force-flashback was wearing one of these hats;

Why do these hats keep popping up? Is this just a new design that Disney really likes for some reason? Is there some meaning to these hats that I don’t know about because I haven’t watched Clone Wars or Rebels?

The next shot is also very brief, and although I noticed quite a large amount of dead bodies on the ground (Luke had a lot of students at some point, so no wonder he feels so bad), I also noticed the silhouette of a building in the background when the lightning struck. However, it goes by so fast I doubt you can really see it without pausing the video, so I guess we’ll have to wait for the Blu-ray release.

Bosk said:

How has luke been training others for 30 odd year or fighting without a light sabre?

Either that, or he built a new one. He’s done it before so it shouldn’t too hard by now.

Also Luke’s definitely been hiding out for several years, so I wouldn’t say that he’s been training Jedi for 30 years.

hydrospanner said:

RicOlie_2 said:

joefavs said:

^I noticed it but couldn’t get a good look at it either time I saw it because the shot was so damn dark. I’m hoping the blu ray is a little clearer.

If I’m thinking of the right alien, it looked just like the first one we see in the cantina scene in ANH–the one with the triangular head.

This guy?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hem_Dazon

That is what I thought too.

Nah, that’s not quite what it looked like, but it’s very similar. The head was much longer, and the eyes wider, as well as red rather than yellow. I also don’t think it was meant to be a sentient life form, but some form of animal. I could be wrong, but at least it’s more of a Jawa-type creature.

Alderaan said:

I’m not sure why people keep saying there were no politics in the OT. Sure it wasn’t overbearing like in the prequels, but Leia and Vader had a political exchange in the opening scene, and Tarkin and Togge briefly discussed politics on the Death Star. It was just enough, the bare minimum amount of exposition to convey the political atmosphere of the world of the story.

No has said that there was “no politics” in the OT, but rather that there was very little of it. I mean I never paid any attention to Tarkin’s comment about the Imperial Senate until I was 20 years old, and I’ve been watching SW since I was 7. Most people don’t really care. Most people want to be able to identify with the characters and to be able to enjoy the ride. Geeks like us care about these details, but we’re so used to the OT that we tend to forget just how little there is in the actual films. TFA did a very similar thing. It’s there is you pay attention, but it’s not in focus because it’s not important. Also, you can’t blame Abrams and Disney for being paranoid about stepping into PT territory. Remember, the backstory in the OT has had nearly 40 years to sink into our public conscious, TFA on the other hand has only been available to us for roughly a week.

lovelikewinter said:
Will the romance be Rey/Finn, Rey/Poe or Finn/Poe?

Now that’s a thought.

hydrospanner said:

TavorX said:

hydrospanner said:
Well, they may have been planning sequels, but the movie was written in a way where it stands on its own. Compare the ending of ANH to the ending of TFA.

To me, there’s that one key scene of why I thought ANH isn’t standalone. And it’s that scene where you see Vader’s Tie zoom away after he stopped the ship from spinning around. If we never got that small little sequence, then I think the argument of ANH intending to be standalone would be stronger. But since that Vader was given additional screen time after the Death Star is blown up, it no longer is standalone because it means we still have a bad guy (a skilled bad guy no less) out in the far reaches of the Galaxy.

Well if they killed him off then they couldn’t use him in a potential sequel. I still think the story of ANH is pretty self contained. The difference is TFA story is written in a way where it needs a sequel to continue to explain the mysteries it presents us and it even ends on a cliffhanger.

Just remember that for a short while Lucas was considering making a low-budget sequel to cash in on the sudden success of ANH. He actually had Alan Dean Foster write Splinter’s of the Minds Eye with the specfic intentions of it possibly being the next SW film. He even told him to; avoid dog-fights because it would be too expensive to make, to contain the story to one planet, and to not include Han Solo in the plot because Ford’s contract hadn’t been renewed.
In addition to this, the first draft of ESB has Luke actually meet the Force-ghost of his father.
So Lucas is speaking BS when he claims that he had it all planned out from the beginning. He’s probably just bitter since Kasdan is getting so much praise nowadays since so much of the fan-base doesn’t really trust him creatively anymore. So now he’s trying to “cover his ass” so-to-speak.

I’m pretty sure they weren’t Jawa, just some very similar small scavengers.

Btw, did anyone notice the head that slowly rose from the sand when BB-8 moved into the desert after Poe had been captured. I’m wondering if it was meant as a little reference to Bad Robot as it was kind of similar?

Warbler said:
As for Leia and Chewie not consoling each other: I took as Chewie not realizing Leia already knew Han was dead. I thought maybe it was too difficult for Chewie to bring himself to tell her. Put yourself in Chewie’s shoes. If your best friend died, would it be easy for you to be the one to tell his/her spouse? As for Chewie taking off with Rey to find to Luke, I had no problem with it. Even with Han dead, Chewie would still want to do his duty.

That’s a good point actually. I just watched the film for the second time and I noticed that Chewie ran out of the Falcon following the medics that were carrying Finn. It wasn’t so much Chewie that ignored Leia, but rather Leia that ignored Chewie. She walked past him, and went for Rey. It’s a bit odd if you start to nitpick, but Rey is our protagonist, and Leia probably sensed her, as well as noticing how alone she looked. And she did know who she was, Finn and Han talked about her, and she couldn’t really have been anyone else.

Warbler said:
btw, I never picked up that Obiwan was talking to Rey when she first picked up the lightsaber.

I noticed it this time around, but unless you’re looking for it you won’t have any clue that it’s actually Alec Guiness’ voice. It’s more of an Easter-egg I’d say.

Well, I’ve seen it a second time as well now, and like many others here I really, really liked it a lot more this time around. All my unrealistic expectation on the first viewing definitely distorted my enjoyment of the film. My overall opinion of the film hasn’t really changed that much though, but I was able to enjoy it a lot more. I also feel that a lot of the complaints that have been thrown about regarding the lack of a detailed backstory is kind of pointless. There actually is an acceptable amount of explanations, or at least pretty clear hints, and the OT didn’t really have that much more to begin with. But we’ve know those films for decades so we’re accustomed to knowing all the extra-information that have been made up about it. I’m sure people back in 1977 had no clue how the politics of it all worked. This is the first time in 30 years that there’s been a film in this era/style, and not knowing the backstory is suddenly somewhat jarring, but I wouldn’t fault the actual cinematic experience for it. I think we need this trilogy to be finished before we can start nitpicking the politics of it. What’s important now is the overall narrative, and although I still think the second have is a bit too derivative, I think it works really well. I enjoyed the first half with practically no complains this time around, and the second half was only mildly disgruntling this time. Now that I was aware of it, I could enjoy the action, humour, characterization, etc. a lot more.

However, here are some of my new observations;

First of all, to all you cynics who’s been whining about Poe saying “my job is done” at the end of the film, I checked and he did say "our job is done." So calm down.

Sydow’s character is described in the opening scroll as an “old ally,” and in his conversation with Poe he insisted on referring to General Leia as “royal.” This doesn’t really explain who he is, but it hint towards certain answers. He also talks about the importance of the Jedi and a “balance” in the Force.

While at the Resistance base C-3PO says “without the Republic fleet we’re doomed!” So the fleet is mentioned in the film. I also think someone else mentioned it a bit later, but I can’t remember the details there.

Lastly, when Kylo is probing Rey’s mind he says that he saw and ocean and and says that he can see "the island." This sounds like a description of Luke’s hiding place a the end of the film. I guess Rey could have had a premonition like Luke did in ESB, or that the lightsaber showed it to her, but it seems more likely that she already knew about the place.

StarWarsnewsnet.com have done a sort-of-review of the TFA novelization.
There’s a few interesting quotes (some of which which I’ve copy-pasted below), and a somewhat explanation of the politics of the new canon.

http://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2015/12/spoilers-want-a-few-more-hints-about-the-force-awakens-take-a-look-at-the-novelization.html

First of all, the Journal of the Whills is apparently canon again. Although how similar it will be to the EU has not been expanded upon yet.

This quote intrigued me;
In the novel, after he orders Hux to leave Starkiller Base, retrieve Kylo Ren, and come to him, Snoke says, “It appears that he may have been right about the girl.”

Apparently when Rey takes Anakin/Luke’s lightsaber away from Kylo with the Force on Starkiller base he says; “It is you.”
Not sure what to take from that.

There’s a lot to take from this article, and I probably missed several important points, but these were the ones that stood out for me.

This article did however confuse me about as to what have happened when in the new canon (e.g. the past 30 years). The guy writing the article mentioned that Kylo had turned to the Dark Side roughly 20 years before TFA. So how old is Kylo Ren then? I assumed that he was about Adam Driver’s age; so roughly 30. In Rey’s Force-flashback he was clearly somewhat of an adult, at least a teenager, when he killed Luke’s Jedi students. So he couldn’t have been 10 years old. Then again he could have turned earlier than we expected, joined the Knight of Ren, which as I mentioned earlier existed before he turned, and then come back and killed Luke’s students when he was older. Or it could have been a typo, or mis-reading of the novel of course. I’m going to have to read this book myself some time soon.