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WaragainsttheCouncil

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10-Mar-2006
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22-Sep-2006
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Post
#246957
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Time
Originally posted by: Cable-X1
I think tolerance will only happen once the OOT gets the love it deserves and is made avaiable.

For me, once I get that, I don't feel any need to argue about anything Star Wars ever again. The PT lovers have their stuff, the SE lovers have theirs and the OOT lovers have theirs too. It's really quite simple. Just go and enjoy what you want to enjoy.

The OOT lovers have been denied that and that's caused a bit of animosity between all camps. The PT vs. OT debate, in terms of story and quality and merit will always continue though...


Amen.
Post
#246699
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Time
That spin *ahem* point of view is strongly clung to because the truth is uglier: he's a greedy lazy egomaniac whom just as soon screw fans as put effort into doing things right. And even if he could be bothered, he doesn't want anything to be the same quality as his current "version" because then everyone will be able to tell he's a complete hack. Simple. Ugly. True.
Post
#246676
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Time
zombie, I'd love to know all your sources - just to know them. But that lines exactly up with what research I've done as well - with a lot more detail. Excellent post.

LFL did in fact do the 04 DVD color-timing themselves prior to the Lowry Digital process, as reported on starwars.com. Although I'm not as certain if they didn't color-correct on the 97 timing, as they did have the color-timed 97 prints (not just the o-Neg) also from which to work with on the HD scan. Either way, it's this step which they used to give things a Prequel look, or try to give them a Prequel look.

But yes, it all boils down to one truth: George has all the elements he needs in his basement to do an HD quality version of 77 SW with minimal investment and effort. An HD scan of the Technicolour print. The one/s probably originally shown to Spielberg and friends, the ones that George himself refers to as: "This is the Star Wars I made."


---
adding for Scruffy: Very likely there is digital copies. But it's not burden for Lucas to use the Technicolour source, he already has once. And I bet they have the equipment in LFL to do the scan themselves. Such a restoration is really no skin off his nose...
Post
#246592
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Time
http://www.starwars.com/episode-iv/release/video/f20040916/index.html

The Star Wars restoration process began with a 10-bit RGB high-definition scan of the original negatives. This data was then used by a team at Lucasfilm and Industrial Light & Magic to work with George Lucas to do some significant color correction to the movies. This color-timed data was then transferred to Lowry Digital hard drives, to begin the massive clean-up effort.

It wasn't the original original negatives though. It was new negatives and masters created as part of the SE 97 restoration. As documentation around the time confirms the original negatives were in terrible shape and used for restoration effort, after which, new "original" negatives were made. This is more than guessing, Lowry confirms in the article that the negative suffered as a result of "conventional restoration processes." (which would have been the 97 restoration)

"There are three key contributing factors to the degradation of film," Lowry explains. "Dirt, time and chemical damage due to conventional restoration processes."


Also, Lucas does have several Technicolour prints in perfect condition in storage. Articles surrounding the 97 restoration confirmed this - as they were used for the color-timing of the 1997 edition. A reasonable Google search should turn up some good sources. Those sources also confirm the production of new O-negs and 35 pristine prints from the 97 process. All of which was color-timed using the Technicolour prints (the best process to date for capturing color in film) as a source.

Of course, my favorite part of the article is the "significant color correction" that LFL did to the scanned-in HD copy of the already perfectly color-timed films. More like significant "candy correction" as they jacked up all the saturation, contrast and color temps to make the damn things look like the Prequels. Herein lies why the 04 release sucks so bad - green lightsabers, blindingly blue R2, red red red, orange bleeds, all kinds of stuff. Of course, when the geeks at LFL shipped it to Lowry; it probably looked "OK"; little did they realize that the Lowry algorithms would eat that crap up and magnify the problem into the monster we see today.

An OOT possible? Just do a 10-bit RGB HD scan of one of Lucas's technicolour prints in the basement and call it a day.

Really, there's no excuse for a shoddy release. Other than, Lucas doesn't want anything looking better than his latest Frankenstein.

Post
#245517
Topic
How I learned to stop worrying and love the 2004 dvd's
Time
No offense - but I'm not changing my color settings on my TV just to watch a movie - especially if it is because the butchers at LFL don't know what the heck they are doing. That 04 DVD is a steaming pile of crap - and any halfway respectable photographer, film maker, connoisseur, graphic designer or human (whom isn't color-blind) should be able to see that disaster a mile away.

No thanks. Bonus disc. All the way. Hell, I'll take my 97 VHS tapes over those things.
Post
#245498
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Time
mverta, this site is NOT a mini-TFn. I respectfully disagree. Even if a few of those types make their way here. Even more will - out of boredom - as TF.n has long since policed away everyone interesting. But it is still not that.

And I really don't think this "release" is going to help Lucasfilm - the way they believe it will and the way you believe it will. This release only highlights the need for preservation and a proper restoration. It doesn't - as they hope - bury the case. They have even less of a ground to stand on than they did before.

Originally posted by: lord3vil
Originally posted by: mverta
Lucasfilm is playing the long game; a waiting game; and it's working.

I wonder what makes you put it this way, because I honestly can't see any such sophistication about what they're doing myself. Lucasfilm is just a company trying to maximize profit and their actions fit perfectly with that simple scheme. They don't have a lot of movie products to sell, only a scarce few films, and if they were to release pristine versions so good as to be perfect for historical preservation, they'd lose a big chunk of their business right there. As far as the man in charge is concerned, it's money first and a little glory second, and history shows that to get more of the former, he's more than willing to sacrifice the latter.


Here's where I disagree. This is one business model. Not the only one. Not even necessarily the best business model. It is purely one approach out of many.

LFL does have many other revenue generators. THX, LucasArts, LFL (who worked on the most successful film of the year, PIRATES) and then the merchandising wings including EU. There is a plethora of revenue streams into that company. So LFL isn't dependent upon releasing and re-releasing and re-releasing SW again and again to survive.

Two, this a business model approach based on quantity. Sadly though, if they spent some time in LFL (in all their divisions) focusing on QUALITY, then the quantity numbers would probably far exceed the extra costs. The market continuously rewards quailty, and punishes substandard products. Even if a substandard release brings in a nice revenue stream, a well-quanitified forecast of a "quality" release of the same product will still usually outperform the substandard release - even with different cost structures.

Enough with the fancy words though, it's Monday. Crap sells. Quality sells. But which one lasts in the marketplace and which one, almost always, sells more. Quality. Which one is ultimately remembered? Quality. Eventually, and this is proved in the market time and time again, crap is punished in the marketplace. Crap loses. George found this out with his ATTACK OF THE CLONES release. For a SW franchise title, it performed miserably.

Yes, LFL has a business model - and it's one built on milking this franchise and using a "i'll take anything" fanbase to do so. It is a valid business model which will yield profits. But it isn't the ONLY business model, and not even necessarily the most profitable one.
Post
#244699
Topic
First Impressions of the OOT ...
Time
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Originally posted by: mverta
They are not conspiracies, JediRandy; they are lies and deceit exposed. I have personally seen the source files Lucasfilm claims don't exist to produce restored OT discs. The denial of their existence is a lie; as is the idea that financial and talent resources aren't available for a proper restoration. (I'm one of dozens of people who offered to donate state-of-the-art post-production services and facilites completely gratis to see it done.) The idea that the imagery in the 2004 DVD is superior is as laughable as any side-by-side comparison can demonstrate, only a few hundred of which are documented on my site. The revisionist nature of the entire history is well-documented, and disputed by no shortage of people involved in the creation of Star Wars.

None of us know exactly why this has always happened; probably never will. Probably financial, in some way that doesn't make sense to us, shy of some lynch-pin piece of data. But the evidence for a "conspiracy," if you want to be so X-Files about it, is overwhelming. In the end, there are just too many of us, with too much material and expertise, too many inside contacts, and too many privileged sources to make the idea of a deliberately substandard release anything less than fact. In fact, even Lucasfilm is aware the images are substandard: they're deliberately posting compares on the StarWars.com site to show you how shitty the OT DVD's you just bought are.

Frankly, I don't care why Lucasfilm takes the position they do; I already have my own Star Wars vastly superior to anything they've put out. But in the interest of preservation, accuracy, and love for the trilogy, I'm not going to turn a blind eye to the deficiencies which are patently obvious in these transfers. I'm not going to pretend it's okay for Luke's lightsaber in ANH to be green, or Obi Wan's to be purple, or all the glows eaten off the laserbolts. I'm not going to pretend it's okay that the audio in the surrounds are fipped left-to-right. I'm not going to pretend it's okay that the 2006 DVD is grainier than a pre-93 laserdisc transfer I've had sitting on my hard drive for years. I'm not going to believe the source files for a proper restoration don't exist when I've seen them with my own eyes.

If you honestly can't conceive of any of the myriad reasons - financial, artistic, or personal - for why all of this has gone down, then I don't know what to tell you. It isn't particularly hard, nor uncommon a set of potential motivations. As far as conspiracy theories go, it's about as boring as it gets.

_Mike

If only the "Twilight Zone" theme was playing as I read that.



JediRandy, your hilarious. Name-calling and slander only expose you for the idiot you truly are. He who rests his position on bile, has no position at all.

Originally posted by: mverta
The opening crawl is bullshit - spotted the fake gate-weave right away. What's even worse is that if you have any ability at all, you can do a completely convincing, organic looking gate weave; I've had to do that a bunch for other projects. It just screams digital post gag.

Also, I'm willing to put some serious money on the fact that grain has been added to ANH, at least. Again, maybe it's from 12 years of doing this stuff every day, but there's a look to post-added grain that I noticed in a bunch of scenes.

There are two truths: 1) The materials exist to make a fully restored OT DVD, scanned already. 2) Lucas does not want the OT to supplant the SE. The images are being deliberately served up to look worse, from the unnecessary sourcing of laserdisc masters when better materials exist, to the non-anamorphic transfer, etc. They're even running a "campaign" on StarWars.com showcasing the differences between the 1977 and 2004 versions of the films, so that fans can see just how much better the 2004's are. It's a curious move to deliberately devalue a product you just released, isn't it?

_Mike


This is precisely what my gut tells me. This release is primarily meant to:

A) Clear out a backlog of 04 DVDs and increase revenue in an off year.
B) Stop or reduce criticism for "not releasing the originals."

and most important

C) To convince the "average consumer" that Lucas' changes and new versions are better than the Originals. To drum up support for continued changes and new releases.

These are the only sets of motivations that will correctly line up with their actions. Why else would they call these bonus disks? Aside from jacking up the price, why also include the 04 DVDs? Why release them non-anamorphic? Why launch a web site campaign which compares the two and highlights the differences?

Lucas is dead set on convincing consumers his new visions are the best. He needs to silence his critics ahead of his big 2007 release - and of course, make money in the process. What better way than to let "the average consumer" compare, although unfairly, the two versions? At least, in his mind. Though, I feel this will backfire - as even a low-quality O-OT is superior to the digitized technical DVD disaster.

In my mind though, this release will actually make the case for preservation to the original public. And hopefully, educated fans of the O-OT can counteract the "misinformation" campaign.
Post
#244645
Topic
Try to take it easy with the Lucas bashing.
Time
He told us to "go screw ourselves" (to use your words) long before people started criticizing him. You seem to be under the delusion - although more likely you are spinning the delusion - that fans brought this on ourselves. George Lucas brought this anamosity on himself. His actions and his choices is the source for the criticism; fans such as yourself enable him to hold his stance. This - again - is not Chicken and the Egg. You seem to have problems understanding cause-effect. George buries OT. George gets criticized. Cause. Effect.

Stop spinning this issue around. Stop pretending like you are here to help. Stop lying (as MeBe illustrated beyond doubt with your many contradictory statements). Stop enabling a corporation to mislead, milk and bilk customers and fans at every turn.
Post
#244634
Topic
Try to take it easy with the Lucas bashing.
Time
Not really. All the responsibility - especially if they are poorly informed and "lied to by implication" - is not on the consumer.

If informed consumers - in a unified voice - spoke up to Lucasfilm; then they would do what they are supposed to do - as other companies do. It's only because LFL has so many spin doctors, paid and unpaid, out there twisting this crap into a tangled confusing mess - that they are allowed to get away with this behaviour.

So yes, fans exactly like you are very much the reason why fans on this site don't have what they want. In other words, while you smile and play your little games over here; you are stabbing your proverbial knife into the back of everyone who demands a solid preservation and release.
Post
#244626
Topic
Try to take it easy with the Lucas bashing.
Time
The major difference being this is a site is dedicated to the O-OT.

Noone is saying you didn't have a right to defend yourself either here or at TF.n. At TF.n, at least your membership made sense - especially considering the Pro-Lucas group over there. But here, you're really only here to cause trouble. Fans like you are the one of the largest reasons (excuses, human shields, whatever) Lucas is able to continue to milk and bilk consumers.
Post
#244550
Topic
Try to take it easy with the Lucas bashing.
Time
I agree that Gomer has a right to post here. As does anyone. Never should any site become the censor-happy thought police state of TF.N.

But MeBe's right. He is laughing behind that keyboard and here to stir up trouble. And he does represent everything that this site stands against. He's smart enough not to act too far out of line, but years of him continually posting snipes at the Original films, and fans of them who expect a proper restoration, will wear anyone down...
Post
#244473
Topic
Try to take it easy with the Lucas bashing.
Time
MeBeJedi, realize Gome's impossible to reason with. I don't think he's gay - whatever's clever anyway. I just think he works for Lucas or Lucasfilm, and if he doesn't physically, he does metaphorically. So his spin doctor has come here - to a site he once ridiculed -

Luckily, Lucas only "thinks" he's made better SE DVDs. Lucas thinks he'll even make his case with the more casual viewer and shore up support. Silence his critics, if you will. Consumers will get the 2004 DVD in all its form and then this poor O-OT release, no better than any bootleg of an LD transfer ---- but it will backfire. Even a low-quality original STAR WARS will look better, feel more magical, than the 04 DVDs; which suffered huge color problems, sound issues and generally plagued with unnecessary bloat.

The 04 SE of the original film is a technical digitized disaster - and people will see it for that. This set MAKES THE CASE for the preservation of the original film. And seeing them side by side will prove it
Post
#244382
Topic
Try to take it easy with the Lucas bashing.
Time
The success of the SEs in theatres and at home is only a small fraction of the revenues generated by the Original Trilogy and the original films. The SE's success is entirely dependent upon and leveraged the love for the Original films. Without it, all your beloved post-97 works would not exist.

Despite your views, this is not a case of the Chicken and the Egg. The original 1977 Star Wars did COME FIRST. This is fact. It's success and overwhelming acceptance in all avenues of public culture (not just movie fans, not just sci fi fans, not just geeks, not just kids) is the SOLE REASON for any sequels. That is fact. It is the sole premise on which the SE's were both restored and marketed. That is fact. It is the ONLY VERSION recognized by the Library of Congress and its restoration efforts. That is fact.


Frankly Gomer, I don't even know what you are doing here. You represent everything and every problem that this site is against. You have slammed it and ridiculed this site on more than one occassion. It's blathering LFL buffoons like yourself trying to spin their corporate milking of this once great film that is killing any efforts for preservation and release of the OT in any kind of quality format. If fans like yourself had a shred of decency, compassion or balls; you would join us in vocalizing this problem to LFL and perhaps we would see real positive change and healing. Instead, you continue to exist to drive a wedge into fandom and destroy the original beauty and magic which captured an entire nation by force.



Post
#200113
Topic
FUEL TO THE MAC vs. PC FIRE
Time
My question is....why doesn't everyone just have a PC? I'm not biased, just look at the facts: PCs are more common anywhere, Macs have had buggy problems since well...forever, 99.9% of all (good) computer games run ONLY on PCs, and the interfaces in Win 95 through XP were more user friendly than the Mac OS.

You must be joking. I mean seriously. Using a PC is like sticking your face through a grinder to get rid of acne. It's painful. Unpleasant. Virus prone. Freeze happy. Overburdened with useless litter. The only reason to use a PC is for games, and/or rare instance of JAVA or other applications which are not Mac combatible in some business settings.

But I came from the PC world. I used both equally from OS 8.6 to OS 9.1. Then OSX came into my life and frankly I've been as happy as ever. All OFFICE software runs on Mac. Adobe CS2 is a dream on Mac. Built on Linux - with easy terminal use, phenomenal network handling, brilliant desktop management and the like. Multitasking across dual monitors is standard. Since completely shedding Classic, I've never seen a crash. Heck, my computer has stayed powered on for months and months and months at a time - multitasking across a dozen high RAM apps without even a blink. I plug and play devices almost without thinking. I do not worry about viruses. I do not fret about spyware. I travel worry free. APPLE OSX is heaven on earth.

No. No. Windows is a god-forsaken creation of the devil meant to enslave the common man in an inferior world. I will never ever ever ever turn away from OSX. Windox MXP111111 could come along with free simulated blows and I still would not be swayed. I feel for the PC user's pain. Many at my office have them. Occassionally, I am forced to watch them clunk around through their desktop like primates, flicking through the task bar in desperation, cursing at "helpers", locking up with the slightest network hang, and I pity them. Oh, I do pity them.

Suggesting getting rid of MACs is like suggesting we get rid of the Ferrari or Porsche and everyone drive Subarus. Insanity.
Post
#197980
Topic
spider man 3
Time
elizabethtown durnst = annoying

Raimi hasn't let me down. But bringing Gwen Stacy in at this time is bad mojo. It doesn't look like they have any plans of wrapping this up. I thought it was a trilogy - to end with III. Looks like money wins again, and I'm afraid the franchise will suffer for it. Everything has built up to Mary Jane. I can handle Harry as Green Goblin/Hobgoblin - but that should be the big end battle with an extra villain or two thrown in the mix. End battle. End of Oscorp. End of trilogy.

So does Mary Jane get wasted? I guess so. Weak way to end two movies of build-up.