Dagenspear said:
Vladius said:
For nostalgia - what you said before was that it was some Plinkett thing. What Plinkett was talking about at the time (2012 apparently) was original trilogy fans who went into the prequels excited about it and willing to overlook any problems because they were already fans. That was true to some extent. What we’re talking about today with nostalgia is largely younger millennials and Gen Z kids who watched the prequels as children, played prequel-themed video games, watched The Clone Wars on Cartoon Network, and so on. You might be in this demographic, I don’t know. In any case, they don’t really understand the context or why there was so much backlash, they just watch a video about how people were mean to Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best and George Lucas and think that that means the original fans were just big meanies, and not that there were serious quality issues with the script and production that caused genuine disappointment. They were too young to think about it, and today refuse to engage with it critically beyond video essays about how the prequels were underrated. That’s what we mean by nostalgia.
I’m saying that’s used even now and it falls apart as a claim under scrutiny, as it’s one proven false based on people who watch the PT movies, for the first time in present day apparently and like them. TCW addition has nothing to do with what I said.
The context is only in the emotions of fans at the time. Everything in the movies, for those that watch them now, is still there. How actors were treated also has no relevance to what I said, because it means nothing to whether or not they like the movie.
The cloners in that scenario are affiliated with Jango Fett, who they know definitely tried to kill Padme. It’s an obvious connection to make and not literally just about the Kaminoans. The connection is confirmed when Jango is working directly for Dooku. All the actions line up. Trying to kill the most prominent public figure arguing against war, setting up an army in secret, then setting up another army in secret to fight that army. It’s not rocket science. Even without the Separatists, it makes sense for someone plotting a war to raise an army and kill the person trying to oppose an army.
The scene is about the cloners. That’s what they ask Obi about, if they were behind it and Obi replies about them having no motive. You said Obi stupidly says that there appears to be no motive to Yoda about the cloners. How is that stupid of him in that scene?
As for everything else, I criticized that not being explored. But that doesn’t change that you expect them to assume it’s fact without any evidence. I think that this could’ve been done better and it’s a weak writing thing in the movie, but it doesn’t do much, as the Jedi can’t do anything about it even if the movie weighed in on it more, as they have no proof, just assumptions.
Do you understand how a military works? It requires serious coordination between thousands or tens of thousands of people. The clones have to be put under some kind of command structure. Yoda didn’t do all that himself in 10 minutes before they all flew to Geonosis. There were star destroyers and troop carriers and tanks all ready to go, so either those were built on Kamino as well (unlikely, we don’t see that at all and it’s a huge ocean) or someone in the Republic had them ready to go and kept it secret. There would have to be a pretty decent sized paper trail to investigate, and they just don’t seem to care.
I always thought that everything the clones had were kaminoan built. It’s a huge facility, that I think we certainly don’t see all of. They get their armors and weapons there. I don’t see why I shouldn’t have the perspective the ships were from there too.
Yes I know Yoda says that. It’s like Dooku was doing some goofy reverse psychology thing. “If I tell them everything that’s going on, they won’t believe me and they’ll think the opposite!” And they just fall for it because they’re written as morons. They don’t do anything about the senate.
They said they would keep a close eye on the senate. That doesn’t make it so they’d do anything, especially if nothing particularly happens in the senate for them to do anything about. When something does happen, like Palpatine being given more emergency powers and Palpatine putting Anakin on the council as his representative in the movies, the Jedi do start to do stuff. Like I said, I don’t take real issue with criticizing that we don’t see it, really, but the Jedi do still have some engagement in the situation.
What Han does is completely different from Anakin and apparently you didn’t read what I said. Anakin complains about his personal life, tells her that he’s obsessed with her, leers at her in a way that makes her uncomfortable, says that she’s in his soul tormenting him, etc. It’s weird and no real woman would ever be into that unless she had such an extreme physical attraction that she didn’t care. Maybe that’s all it was. Han is being cocky and brash and aggressive, but he isn’t telling Leia he’s obsessed with her or having dreams about her or putting her on a pedestal. When he’s complaining and yelling he’s teasing her. He impresses her with genuine confidence, competence, and skill. He’s playing the “bad boy” persona, which is a cliche but it’s absolutely true and not just a Hollywood thing. Anakin is the weirdo “nice guy.”
I read it and I think it’s bunk. Han leers, complains about Leia not showing her feelings to him, is fairly pervy. As if that’s not weird. No, I think Han complaining and yelling isn’t teasing her in that scene. He’s depicted as being petty and venting, to me. The teasing part comes later and is where the pervy attitude starts.
All I think you’re using is weak generic concepts, bad boy, nice guy. It means nothing. I criticize the writing of Anakin and Padme’s relationship, but thin, to me, terms like creepy or weird being used suggesting it somehow is worse than Han means nothing to me.
What is a criticism of it, to me, is that Han and Leia I think are stronger written, in structure, because Han and Leia in ANH were more like peers and when we see them in TESB they are heavily implied to have worked together for a time, which I think allows a lot of the heavy lifting of the relationship to already be done. Anakin and Padme don’t get that writing allowance. I can criticize Han and Leia, in that we barely actually explore Leia’s side of this issue and the tension angle is fairly cheap to me, along with Han’s whiny attitude, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s stronger written. I’m just against the thin, to me, complaints about Anakin being called creepy.
I’m not talking about your personal anecdotes or you personally, I’m talking about a general trend. I have my own anecdote where I showed family members all six movies for the first time in release order, and they both liked the original trilogy more, and had basically all the same criticisms people had of the prequels when they first came out, with the notable exception that they loved Jar Jar. If there are people who like them after seeing them for the first time, that doesn’t say how much they like them, why they like them, or whether they have any taste in movies. Some people just like anything that has a lot of spectacle.
I looked it up again and this is the direct quote:
“Mace: Do you think these cloners are involved in the plot to assassinate Senator Amidala?
Obi-Wan: No, Master, there appears to be no motive.
Yoda: Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear, your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.”
They easily count as “involved in the plot”, and you can put together that assassinating an anti-war figure while creating an army seems like a pretty clear motive. The reason for starting a war would be more ambiguous (you might suspect it’s arms dealers for example), but starting a war is clearly what the “real villains” want, and the cloners are clearly “involved” with that. I guess if you’re taking it strictly literally then all the Kaminoans themselves want is money, yes, but they’re still a part of the plot.
The Jedi could do something about it and find proof, but they never do. Even in EU material and TCW, they don’t even try, maybe because it would be too obvious and make the plot unravel. There were parts in Revenge of the Sith where they discuss who Sifo Dyas was and what exactly happened, but they were cut for time. It just seems like it should be a much bigger priority and something they could check on.
For the Han Solo/Anakin stuff I have to conclude that you don’t have very much real life experience with certain social situations and dynamics. The stereotypes are based on real things that happen, which is why one strikes people as plausible and engaging and the other strikes people as uncomfortable and bizarre. This even goes across cultural boundaries - I was reading a manga from the 2000s the other day where the author joked about how there was no way Padme would fall for Anakin. There’s modern day criticism that Han is being too aggressive in the kissing scene on the Falcon, but it’s not because the characters are written or portrayed unrealistically, it’s more about the cultural messaging it has. Their bickering, banter, back and forth snipping, etc. are a kind of flirting.
