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Vigo

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8-May-2006
Last activity
24-Jan-2008
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228

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Post
#259269
Topic
Has technology accelerated that much?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/259269/action/topic#259269
Time
Originally posted by: Mielr
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: canofhumdingers
Originally posted by: Vigo
...restaurated...
wow...
You know what really "wow" is? Learn to speak 3 different languages like myself. Oh wait, you don´t have to. You are probably American, and will most probably never set foot on another continent besides your own. And if you do, the first thing you will do is heading to the next McDonald´s, avoiding exposure to too much foreign culture mixing up your precious little brain.

I´m sorry if I offend anyone, but ignorant posts like this drive me nuts.Asshole!
Whoa nelly!

I agree that he probably shouldn't have corrected your spelling, but in turn you decide to insult my country?


I have no problem if someone corrects my spelling, but he didn´t do that. He simply suggested that I am dumb or something because I used the wrong spelling, and yesterday, I was really upset by this, because I was in a very bad mood. I hope at least you notice that I wrote Asshole, not Assholes .

Concerning insulting countries, well, I´m sorry if you felt that I have insulted you as a person. I didn´t. My whole anger was mainly directed towards him, as I already said, I´m sorry if I offend anyone. Nevertheless, there is at least small truth in everything.

Americans tend to be ignorant of the world around them, and I can partly understand that, because it is a very big and wealthy country. You don´t have to understand the rest of the world. You don´t have to acknoledge international laws. You can anonymously torture people, and no oher nation has the guts to stand up against this. You don´t have to acknowledge international agreements to decrease pollution and stop earth warming. You still have the barbaric death penalty. Power corrupts, and leads to decay. And the frustrating thing is, if you go down, you are going to take us all with you.

I know that by saying "you", I mainly refer to your administration. But then again, who voted for them to be elected TWICE?

Germans for instance, tend to be very downbeating and they like to pity themselves although they live in a rich country, too, and since we are Europeans, we share the same kind of arrogance with other european countries. And yes, we have our own black past. A reason more to consider our opinion on certain things...

You can´t deny that there are cultural differences between nations. We should both celebrate what we share AND what makes us different. If you think pointing out cultural differences are insults, well, I only can say: nobody likes when someone holds a mirror in front of you.


I'm an American (I have no idea if canofhumdingers is or not- he may be Canadian, he may be British or Australian....) but I was one of the Americans on this board who came to your defense and still you decide to assume that the one person who offended you is American while none of your defenders are?


Umm, unless I got something serious wrong, Canadians also live on the American continent. Technically, you are a citizen of the USA. Yes, people mainly call you Americans, but technically, I could also call a Canadian an American. As you can call me an European.


....and if you'll notice, even though I'm an ignorant American, I managed to write this post without insulting your homeland.


No, you are not an ignorant American. You are a non-ignorant American. See the difference? I never said that all Americans are ignorant. But many of you guys take a lot of things for granted. You are not used to be critized by others. You can´t handle it, because you don´t have to... ...yet.

Again, I´m sorry if I offend anyone personally. Perhaps I´m kind of ignorant, too now. Maybe, there is perhaps more in common than I thought. At least, I am somewhat able to reflect on this.
Post
#259036
Topic
Has technology accelerated that much?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/259036/action/topic#259036
Time
Originally posted by: canofhumdingers
Originally posted by: Vigo
...restaurated...


wow...


Yes, wow. I´m sorry that English is not my first language. I´m sorry that I tend to make mistakes. I´m sorry that sometimes, i mix up German with English spelling (in German it is RESTAURATION). I´m sorry, that RESTAURATION would sound almost identical to the correct RESTORATION, due to the beauty of English spelling and writing. I´m sorry that sometimes, my thoughts are complex, but my english capabilities are lagging behind, especiall if I´m forced to answer quick.

You know what really "wow" is? Learn to speak 3 different languages like myself. Oh wait, you don´t have to. You are probably American, and will most probably never set foot on another continent besides your own. And if you do, the first thing you will do is heading to the next McDonald´s, avoiding exposure to too much foreign culture mixing up your precious little brain.

I´m sorry if I offend anyone, but ignorant posts like this drive me nuts. Asshole!
Post
#258615
Topic
Will you buy the OOT again ?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258615/action/topic#258615
Time
Originally posted by: SW
Even if you do get what you want you will still be complaining about someting .

If we do get what we want, how shall we complain?


For example you might say the pic quilty is abit crap but dont forget Star wars is a 30 year old movie !!


Look at Wizard of Oz on DVD. And this is a 65 year old movie. The original 1937 Robin Hood (released on HD-DVD now in gorgeous quality). 30 years is not too much, there are movies MUCH older and MUCH less popular than Star Wars released on DVD in great quality.
Post
#258608
Topic
Final Consensus On 2006 OOT
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258608/action/topic#258608
Time
The last non-anamorphic widescreen DVD´s I bought were from the Stanley Kubrick Collection in 2001. And yes, you can do anamorphic 1,66:1 transfers by shrinking the picture slightly horizontally. It is also debatable if Kubrick would have wanted his movies in 1,33:1 on DVD in times when widescreen TV´s are becoming standard now. He most certainly wanted them that way, because 1,33:1 open matte is much better than 1,33:1 pan & scan.
Post
#258602
Topic
Has technology accelerated that much?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/258602/action/topic#258602
Time
Originally posted by: generalfrevious
I have a silly question, but I think it could clear things up for me, and its about the change in video technology. How can the best laserdisc transfer from the 90s end up being the most visually unwatchable DVD today? And, are the 2006 SW DVD's analog?


Very good question. I´m trying to elaborate on this:

First, DVD is a digital format. DVD´s can be mastered from analogue sources by digitizing them. VHS, Laserdisc and 35mm film are analogue formats.

Second: STAR WARS was never the best Laserdisc transfer back then. It was the best looking version of Star Wars, since they used new equipment to transfer the 35mm to video and then to the Laserdiscs. I have lots of Laserdiscs from the same year (1993) but from newer movies which look much sharper and more detailed than this transfer.

The biggest impact as to why these transfers are unwatchable now are the huge advances made in film restauration over the last 13 years. When the DVD format came out and became mainstream, the demand for equipment to do digital film restauration rose, since studios wanted to re-release their old films they had, but had to realize that lots of them were in really bad condition due to decades of wrong storage or very instable film material used back then. Before DVD, very few people in the industry were bothered by this.

It was during this time that huge advances were made in digital film restauration. When Star Wars OOT was restaured, they used a NTSC low resolution telecine transfer, which was then "restaurated" using 1993 technology, like using heavy DVNR noise reduction to reduce film grain and defects. This introduced lots of flaws into the transfer, like ghosting, smearing, etc. Since the transfer was NTSC-non-anamorphic, it could only be used for NTSC-non-anamorphic formats.

Nowadays, film restauration is done completely in the digital domain. Instead of telecining the material, it is digitized frame by frame into the computer, using modern film scanners which yield MUCH better colour, contrast and resolution than the old telecine machines back then. Since the last few years, nearly ALL transfers are usually done at HD (2k) resolution, sometimes at 4K resolution. You always have to remember that original 35mm film yields a much higher resolution than any comsumer HD format available now, not to mention standard television formats like DVD.

When the material is digitized into the computer in high resolution, the restauration team can relatively easily (compared to the non-digital age) change the colour and contrast of the film material to repair the fading of colours due to instable film stock used back then. When this is done, you can use automatic, semi-automatic or manual removal of film defects like dirt or scratches. This works by using an intelligent software which compares the whole movie frame-by frame and replaces destroyed picture information by dirt or scratches with picture information from the previous frames. Alternatively, you could correct those defects "by hand" which means you paint them out yourself. In 1993, all you could do was either leave the material as it is, or using noise reduction algorithms which decreased sharpness and introduced smeared movements, all what you can see in the OOT transfer. Since a few years now, this is no problem anymore and greatly enhanced the quality of film restaurations.

One you have a restaurated High Definition master, you can easily downscale it to 720x480 (NTSC), 720x576(PAL) or 1920x1080(HDTV) resolution.

Most people here at the forums don´t want a complete restauration. They just want a new transfer from existing film elements. Which means: standard procedure for every DVD movie released nowadays.

The result is that the OOT looks FAR WORSE than most DVD´s made by major studios and even small studios. The non-anamorphic nature of the transfer is not the worst aspect. The worst aspect is that it looks so bad because the quipment which was involved in the restauration is so heavily outdated by now. This affects everything. Ghosting, smearing etc.

Isn´t it a shame that my Flash Gordon DVD, which cost about 7EUR here, looks MUCH better compared to the OOT. It does not look better because they did a heavy restauration on it, it looks better because it was mastered using modern equipment. Equipment which has become more than affordable, even for small studions.
Post
#257864
Topic
A New Hope HDTV screenshots
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257864/action/topic#257864
Time
Originally posted by: vtpeters
Can someone please tell me why everyone here is so thrilled to see these 1997 SE versions in HD? They're by general knowledge the worst-of-all Star Wars versions ever, so why bother?

If you would have read the whole thread, you would have seen how I was talking about that the added cgi effects in the SE scenes look even more crap in HDTV. Apart from the 2004 "colour treatment" (although it seems that it has been corrected again), the restauration effort is awesome. This is how the OOT *COULD* look.


And as far as adapting new standards goes. Personally I'd first have to see the electronics and entertainment industry together support only ONE system. I'm not going to invest (heavily) into a system that could become the next Video2000 or Betamax (for all you youngsters: these were rival and some may say technically superior video tape systems to VHS in the late 80's and early 90's).


Yup, I´ll sign that!
Post
#257814
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257814/action/topic#257814
Time
Originally posted by: Fang Zei
speaking of the 1985 IP, are we to assume Lucas had that destroyed as well?


I personally doubt that even half of those claims are true about source materials being destroyed. They could even dig up the original element of the 1977 crawl for the GOUT. And please, no discussion about if it´s the true crawl. Boris *sigh* and I found much proof that in fact it is (dirt).
Post
#257728
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257728/action/topic#257728
Time
Originally posted by: bigmonkey20
Sorry, didn't mean to offend. And I do agree that they deserve better 100%, but, I just think we're lucky to get them in any release at all. Thus why I've sold off many of my sets and collections. Lucas is a stubborn ass, and most likely won't give in to giving the O-OT work for a PROPER release without putting it with a "better" edited version purposely to say that we got them for "his" versions.


I´m not saing anything against people who want to get these releases. I can completely understand people who want them on DVD. I am however, saying something against people who are heavily downplaying the quality issue of this release. Saying things like "we´re lucky to get them at all" makes me feel sad. People demanding a very rare horror flick in a uncut version on DVD usually make such requests. But not fans of the biggest movie franchise of the world.
Post
#257722
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257722/action/topic#257722
Time
Originally posted by: JediRandy
Originally posted by: Guy Caballero
Wow, you're right. It IS just a few minutes here and there! The special edition isn't just better. It's totally the same! I see the error of my preference. Thanks!


yeah, but its more fun to bitch and moan for years... carry on.


And what is YOUR purpose here on this forum? Obviously bitching and moaning about our bitching and moaning.
Post
#257721
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257721/action/topic#257721
Time
Originally posted by: bigmonkey20
I will continue to watch my O-OT vhs tapes, and the "bonus" disc in the 2006 release. Yeah the 2006 one was badly done. But I just like to have them on a legal legit dvd. And I have a regular old tv, so I'm not bothered by non-anamorphic, laserdisc transfer ect. Edit- By the way, the lack of touching up if anything gives me the whole nostalgic feel of watching the O-OT. Which is what everyone is screaming for.


Why do people always keep repeating "bad picture quality = nostalgic feeling"??? Those epic movies were primarily made for the big screen at a time when home video formats were just about to be available. Thanks to the achievements made in modern digital film restauration during the last years, movies can be restaured back to their former visual appearance. *THIS* is nostalgia, watching the movies how they were supposed to be watched. Not a highly flawed Laserdisc transfer made 13 years ago.

I´m now watching the German Edgar Wallace movies from the 1960´s. ALL anamorphic, and much better picture quality than the OOT DVD release. Klaus Kinski is really a psycho.
Post
#257357
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257357/action/topic#257357
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I just remember the day I got my laserdiscs of the O-OT, thinking that it would never get any better than that.

Now I'm hearing people say it's bad to the point of being torturous.

It just seems to me that to a certain extent, Lucas isn't the only one who is pretending the O-OT doesn't exist anymore.

Time has moved on. Standards in home video technology have drastically improved. Standards in film restauration have drastically improved. You can now get DVD´s for under ten bucks which have far better picture and sound quality than most Laserdiscs, which were VERY expensive back then, not to mention the playback equipment. This is the minimun standard that a DVD from a major studio has to achieve. It is fairly easy to achieve, unless you are a very very small studio with hardly any money. This release is a little bit better than of bootlegging quality. While may be state of the art in 1993 (I have some Laserdiscs which look much better than these), now it´s just plain ridicolous. Especially if you compare this to other releases coming from other studios. The picture was HEAVILY DVNR'ed while making the transfer. You have heavy ghosting and all other totally undesirable effects in the transfer, which is TOTALLY, and I really mean TOTALLY substandard nowadays.

But how many times do we have to say that? How many threads with detailed descriptions and explanations do you need to get this into your bonehead? Either you just ignore our points we are making, repeating and repeating yourself, and are practically wasting our time, or you have a very bad short term memory and you do not re-read threads you are posting in.


To me the point of this September release is so I don't have to watch them on stretched out VHS tapes, or Laserdiscs you have to flip a couple of times for each movie.

To me this is better than it was.


No, it´s worse, dude. I live in a PAL country. We use our own television system with 100 lines more resolution. The PAL Laserdiscs I own were mastered from a true PAL source, yielding 100 lines more resolution than the NTSC Laserdiscs. The GOUT release however, even the PAL release, was UPSTRETCHED from the NTSC master. Do you know how horrible that looks? Especially on my 16:9 CRT television?

Sorry, but you don´t have a fucking idea. You are one of those guys, which have just a basic premise ("defend Lucas!") and are building ridiculous arguments up, playing ignorant where important arguments have been issued, and repeating the same preconcieved shit over and over again when you are out of arguments. You are much more often on these forums than I am. You most certainly have read these information I gave you right now at least multiple times. Yet, it did not sink into your brain.

Having an opposite view here can be quite healthy. But not if you deliberately choose to filter out information which does not fit into your world view.
Post
#257260
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257260/action/topic#257260
Time
Originally posted by: Cable-X1
Originally posted by: Vigo
I agree with all of you except one thing: Lucas DOES NOT have to acknowledge and respect our wishes. He can do pretty much everything he wants with his works. No matter how much the fans will cry and whine here.

Of course he doesn't have to....but why should that stop him. All he has to do is release them properly so that EVERYONE is happy. It's not quantum physics here. Put out the best product of what will satisfy everyone. That would be a fully remastered OOT with all the works and then his SE if that's what he personally prefers. I think what drives a lot of people bonkers is that the solution is so damn simple. Just release every version, George....that's not asking too much, is it?

Sure I underderstand the anger. I am angry myself. But, you know, on the other hand, I am telling to myself "Why should I be angry about this? Why should I let it happen that this person has so much power over me? And why should this anger drive me to insult people, which do not have the same opinion as I have?". I mean, what good does anger do? Nothing. It´s not constructive. The only way to change things is be constructive. This site is the prime example of being constructiveness, namely preservation.



Calm down, dude. You sound like Star Wars is being a drug, and you are the junky on turkey. In the end, Lucas does what he can, whether you prefer to accept it, or not. Call him a bastard, idiot, whatever you feel, it won´t change anything.

Perfectly calm here dude. You better chill, I thinks. A movie that a hell of a lot of people love does not equate a junky.


As long as one can maintain a healthy distance to the things one does love, one is not a junky, you are right. However, I see the problem that a lot of people are enraged, and forget themselves about this issue. I won´t call this a healthy distance.


Stop trying to make me sound melodramatic. You know exactly what I mean when I say what Lucas is doing. There's nothing wrong with popping in the OOT and letting your mind wander back to the time you were a kid and saw it the first time. That sort of thing is rather esoteric and I don't expect everyone to get it, but don't make me look like some wacko about it.


This is not the point I´m trying to make. The point is that I think some people take their passion way too serious, which doesnt do them or other people any good. It makes them blind. And ultimately will prevent any rational thought. If you are a wacko just because of loving the OOT better, I am a wacko, too.


I don't trivialize you, Vigo. Don't trivialize me. And Lucas is a dumb bastard all around and yeah, I know it won't change anything, but am I supposed to roll over and drink the kool-aid. Don't think so....you're welcome to though.

Do you think I trivialize by actually trying to appeal to people´s reason?



It´s neither respect nor disrespect. It´s marketing. Slap the OOT on disc and bundle it with the unsold SE discs from stock. Nothing more.

Go-Mer is at least in one thing right: there are really vicious people here demonizing Lucas. He neither is a demon, nor an angel. He does, what every corporation in the world does: maximize profits. Nothing more. If you cry at him, cry at the whole capitalistic system, because he is just doing what he is allowed to do. Legally, Star Wars does NOT belong to us, that´s the cruel truth.

I believe I acknowledged that it's marketing, but I disagree with the disrespect. I think it is. I point to other releases that have original and special editions in them. ET, the future Blade Runner, Dawn Of The Dead...all these DVD releases have multiple, restored and remastered versions. SW was a hell of a lot bigger than all of those combined. In fact, wouldn't it be good marketing to do the same thing and release all the versions all spiffed up in a nice release? That way you maximize your customer base. Everyone will buy it if it has everything, right? So you see...the marketing excuse can be used both ways. Lucas just doens't like the OOT anymore and it gets treated like shit. That's disrespect.

Ok, so Lucas doesn´t respect us anymore. He probably hates us and he hates the OOT. Of course you can see it this way, perfectly valid, but what does it give to you? Nothing. Unrationalized feelings. Hate.

The alternative is to ignore this, and just analyse it from the marketing POV, from the view of Lucasfilm. I stopped bothering listening to what Lucas said. In the end, all the actions you can observe coming from Lucasfilm are just plain marketing... at its worst! This is the way everything works. This is the reason why he created the SE´s in the first place. This is the reason he surpressed the GOUT, because he thought: "Now since I have done the SE´s, I have to support them by every means possible. I just say the originals don´t exist anymore, because there is not enough market for both versions, and I just want to have a "cleaned up" product palette". And now this is the reason, he slapped the GOUT on this new DVD set, because to clear the stock of unsold, overproduced SE discs. I think, this point of view is much preferrable than just thinking "OH MAN, HE HATES US, HE HATES STAR WARS, HE HATES THIS, HE HATES THAT..."


And please spare us that "cry at the capitalist system" shit.....lame.


Again, just raw feelings. It IS no shit, it´s the truth. The current system, how intellectual property is handled, clearly defines who owns Star Wars. And it is not compatible with the desires OOT fans have.



You both are two extremes: Go-Mer is the Lucas lover, you decided to utterly hate this man for his actions. At least, it´s something to fill out boring evenings, right?

I do not utterly hate the man. I've said that on many occasion. What I don't hide is utter irritation at how moronic this man is. He has the greatest sci-fi/fantasy film series EVER and he treats it like nothing more than a cash cow.


How would you treat it, if it would be one of your very few sources of income? You forget, beyond Star Wars, Lucas hasn´t achieved much more. Yeah, Indiana Jones.... He has to pay a lot of money to keep Lucasfilm going. Star Wars are the most expensive independent films made.


Sure, if there's money to be made, I want him to make it. I'd do the same, but it's just all the bullshit that annoys me. He's going to make MORE changes for the 2007 release?


Yep, because, since these are basically the same movies again, he feels the need to change his product to enhance its appeal to the customers. Again: simple marketing at its worst. The only funny thing is how his fans interpret these actions. "artistic vision"(tm)


He wants people to buy it again??? Will he ever be finished???


No, according to the reasons I gave you.


I'm not saying anyone has to buy it, but it's just the principle. He expects that people will fork over money for his OCD-fueled changes time and time again?


Yep.


The man has got some major issues in his noodle....I just feel the need to speak up about it. Don't translate that as hate to try and dismiss me.


No, but I see that most people, Lucas supporters and critics, can not see the bigger picture.


It kills time on boring evenings, yeah. You got a problem with that?


Nope.





The problem is the following:

- Kurtz may be lying


Don't see any reason why he should. He's out of the big picture anyway. I think he's just defending a film he worked on and has pride in. He doens't like what it's been turned into. I don't blame him and I don't see any reason why he should. He's not getting money for causing any ruckus.

- Lucas may be lying


I don't think Lucas is lying....I think in some warped section of his brain, he believes what he's saying as the truth even if it contradicts what he's said before. Sounds delusional to me...



That is so weak, Gomer. I expect better arguments from you...


Sorry, but so are you. You both are practically the same, only the other way around.


So am I what? We're polar opposites of the argument....and your point is?


That you realize it, and step out of this mechanical behaviour.
Post
#257216
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257216/action/topic#257216
Time
Originally posted by: Tiptup
Originally posted by: Vigo
The only thing which all sources claim, is that Lucas really suffered making the first Star Wars. A lot of pressure was put on him during the whole production. He could indeed have done things differently than he really would like to have. On the other hand though, this IS what created the film in the first place. This whole atmosphere influenced the creative process, apparently positively. Otherwise, the original movies wouldn´t have had this succes. Lucas and lot of his supporters fail to realize this important point.


Very true.


Making films is about capturing the "magic moment". That is the moment when you feel that eveything is "right" and fits perfectly together.

Sometimes, this can be achieved by taking lots of time and endless of takes and wait until the "magic" appears. Stanley Kubrick used this kind of work method. He would make actors take 30,40,50(!!!) takes one ONE SCENE(!!!) until he felt that the magic was happening. And he was right.

Sometimes though, these magic moments can happen by accident. Even unnoticed by the director. Let´s be honest with ourselves: Star Wars is a great movie. But its success was completely unexpected. For the studio and for the director. It became a culture "phenomenom". It achieved what other movies didn´t achieve where the production went smooth and uncomplicated. I personally am convinced that Star Wars is one of these movies which were great by "accident", and came at the right time at the right place. Again: this is not bad, it´s good! This is exciting.

Unfortunately, Lucas did not realize this. If we believe him that he actually made the SE in order to correct everything that was wrong, he does not seem to realize that at this moment, he also corrected things which were absolutely right. Not anticipated or planned by him, but THEY WERE right for the movie. Great directors know this. You can hear this in a lots of audio commentaries on DVD, that the success of a movie heavily depends on lucky things happening during the production. George on the other hand, does not seem to know this.

Look at the prequel trilogy. Everything was perfectly planned. The special effects are state of the art, a lot of money has been spent, the actors did their work in front of a green screen or in their motion capture suits. Yet, personally, for my own taste, I don´t see the magic happening on screen. Nevertheless, they were commercially succesful. But on the other hand, there are so much REALLY GREAT films multitudes better than Star Wars that had not nearly this kind of commercial success. So commercial success is not neccessarily an indication of great movies. Other factors like marketing are playing the important roles.

Bottom line: the industry is stupid. Everyone wants to remake or tinker with great movies, those movies which have "their magic", and do not realize it can not be recaptured again, doomed to disappoint the audience who LOVE the original movies. The only movies which should be remade, or tinkered with are the BAD ones!
Post
#257211
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257211/action/topic#257211
Time
Originally posted by: Cable-X1
So when he says all this about a film no longer belonging to its creator and that ownership is illusory, I APPLAUD him too. The man is 100% right. Period. Lucas doesn't "own" SW anymore. He lost a certain amount of control over it when he released it into the public consciousness back in 1977. Yes, he does own the sole right to make money off of it and do whatever he wants with the intellectual property, but that doesn't negate that it now belongs to everyone. I believe Lucas MUST acknowledge and respect that. By not doing it, he has effectively turned his back on his fans.

I agree with all of you except one thing: Lucas DOES NOT have to acknowledge and respect our wishes. He can do pretty much everything he wants with his works. No matter how much the fans will cry and whine here.


Gomer posts here that Lucas respects his fans. No sir, he DOES NOT. Refusing to release the versions that an entire generation has grown up with and that made Lucas rich is not repecting his fans. It is disrespectful because he is denying fans something that is a part of their lives. He's taking away something that means something to someone else because he doesn't feel it's appropriate anymore. That is WRONG ON EVERY LEVEL.

Calm down, dude. You sound like Star Wars is being a drug, and you are the junky on turkey. In the end, Lucas does what he can, whether you prefer to accept it, or not. Call him a bastard, idiot, whatever you feel, it won´t change anything.


Now he has somewhat caved by releasing the OOT last September, but I don't think that release was spurred on by out petition or by some high artistic realization that the originals should be respected. Lucas released them to make a quick buck. And he released a shitty product at that. That's just more disrepect.


It´s neither respect nor disrespect. It´s marketing. Slap the OOT on disc and bundle it with the unsold SE discs from stock. Nothing more.

Go-Mer is at least in one thing right: there are really vicious people here demonizing Lucas. He neither is a demon, nor an angel. He does, what every corporation in the world does: maximize profits. Nothing more. If you cry at him, cry at the whole capitalistic system, because he is just doing what he is allowed to do. Legally, Star Wars does NOT belong to us, that´s the cruel truth.


Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Yeah there are a lot of people who say different things, but when it comes to what Lucas was thinking in his own head, I will take his word for it.

Even when it seems to change so much? His "word" will change with every new edition of the saga and you'll go right along with it?


You both are two extremes: Go-Mer is the Lucas lover, you decided to utterly hate this man for his actions. At least, it´s something to fill out boring evenings, right?



To me what Lucas says makes more sense, because all Kurtz says is he doesn't understand why they wouldn't have tried more takes if that was really what Lucas wanted. It's also important to note that the reason Lucas and him had a falling out was because in Lucas' words "he wouldn't say no to anything." They went their separate ways becuase the budget blew out of control on Kurtz's watch.


One doesn't have anything to do with the other. The Greedo thing took place before SW became popular, so Kurtz "not saying no to anything" doesn't apply here. If Lucas wanted the scene a certain way, then he could have taken more than 3 takes to get it. Hell, some scenes in movies get 10, 15, 20 takes. Why was this one not worth anymore? And incidentally, I agree with the earlier quote that hundreds of westerns have been made before SW. Lucas couldn't cop a scene from one of them to get pointers. Bullshit, man. Han shot first from the start. Lucas pussed out with the SEs.


The problem is the following:

- Kurtz may be lying
- Lucas may be lying

Lucas defendants choose to denounce everything Kurtz says and prefer Lucas opinion, Lucas haters prefer to choose the other way around. The only thing which all sources claim, is that Lucas really suffered making the first Star Wars. A lot of pressure was put on him during the whole production. He could indeed have done things differently than he really would like to have. On the other hand though, this IS what created the film in the first place. This whole atmosphere influenced the creative process, apparently positively. Otherwise, the original movies wouldn´t have had this succes. Lucas and lot of his supporters fail to realize this important point.



So it doesn't suprise me when I hear Lucas saying he cut his losses after 3 takes, and for Kurtz to wonder why he didn't just keep trying until he got the shot he wanted.

To me Kurtz's account only bolsters Lucas' claim.


That is so weak, Gomer. I expect better arguments from you...


Sorry, but so are you. You both are practically the same, only the other way around.
Post
#257004
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257004/action/topic#257004
Time
Something which I COULDN´T let pass uncommented:


I only speak for myself when I say I appreciate the way Lucas is tweaking and to me he is improving them. For me it's not about the special effects as much as it's about the story. To me what he's done not only hasn't harmed the original films, it's actually made them better. He said that if he didn't do the restoration when he did, there would never have been -any- Star Wars. What you call "destroying the original print" I call saving it's life. To me it's not all that big of a deal if Lucas wants to make Greedo shoot first, or if he wants to put Hayden in as the ghost in ROTJ. To me, it still represents the same thing: The good man who was Luke's father.


Again, cutting up the negative, and replace large parts of it with newly created material made 20 years later is NO preservation, it is the destruction of the original. He could have done the same restauration without this butchering. You can´t save something by throwing it away and replacing it with something different.

EVERY film restauration expert and movie fan will shake his / her head about your comment you just made. Ever heard of euphemism?

Acoording to your logic, burning the whole negative and remaking EPIV-VI with the same story, but totally different actors would be no problem, since essentially, it still would represent the same thing. Well, I personally think of Hayden´s character and acting performance in the PT when I watch GL newly revised "artistic vision" (tm). Too bad I´m actually paying too much attention to the performance and actors of films, even if they are being replaced suddenly with every new film release, instead of just going with the story...

You are clearly no film preservationist. And this is an understatement. You are clearly the ANTI-FILM-PRESERVATIONIST.
Post
#257000
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/257000/action/topic#257000
Time
@Go-Mer-Tronic

I´m tired now (Well, its 11pm now here). Everything which I have to say about the original movies, the special editions, etc. I did in the last answer to you. Read it carefully, since it answers a lot of your questions you are giving to me in your last post above this post.

It all comes down to the fact that we both don´t know GL personally. I wrote about what I think his motivation is, you wrote your interpretation about the situation.

The only thing I see is that these movies deserve a far better treatment than treating them as "waste" products from the past. The only thing I can do is to compare this situation with how other movies, far less popular than Star Wars are treated. By Director´s which also claim to have an "artistic vision". And I am pretty confident in my opinion that everything which you and other GL supporters are constantly citing, becomes rididulous in this context. Learn about the film preservation like I did, since it´s a fascinating subject which really interests me, and you´ll see that most claims about the OOT being very costly to restore properly is just marketing talk by Lucasfilm. Read the Star Wars thread at www.hometheaterforum.com/htf in the DVD section. Read the first pages where Robert Harris, who restored a lot of films in his career, is very confident that the OOT could be restored to its original state without investing tons of money. If you don´t know Robert Harris, Google and you´ll see what I mean. There is no technical reason why the OOT couldn´t be restored again, it could have been done for this DVD release, and Lucasfilm would still have made a nice profit. They easily would have won the heart of ALL fans. No bad press and outcry about this no-effort.

In the end, for me, the evidence supporting the theory that Lucas has long gone stopped listening to his fans, and is trying to get as much $ out as possible from his franchise, by constantly revising his films, is much more obvious than your claims about "artistic vision". Real artists don´t behave like that. And this is the problem when you are a die-hard Star Wars fan instead of being a film fan in general: your lack of perspective on those matters. You can only see everything in GL own context. You believe him blindly. You even start to fill out these huge logic gaps for him created by him and his ridiculous argumentation.

This huge fan preservation community isn´t there for no reason. This loud critical tone against the prequel trilogy isn´t there for no reason. When do you start to open your eyes and realize that a lot of things have gone wrong in the past? Can you allow yourself to be critical?
Post
#256981
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/256981/action/topic#256981
Time
Originally posted by: grifter
Originally posted by: Vigo
[
Yeah, like those Blade Runner fans, which will get next year on DVD AND HD-DVD a special edition set, containing:

1) The original 1982 cinema cut, which hast been available on video for almost TWO decades
2) The 1992 Director´s cut
3) The new Final Cut, which will be Ridley Scott´s definitive version.

Or like those ET fans, who can have BOTH the original and 20th anniversary edition IN THE SAME QUALITY on DVD.

Yes, it´s so hard to please the fans. But then again, Blade Runner was such a financial succesful movie contrary to the Star Wars franchise....



Touche!


This is even more impressive when you consider that Ridley Scott REALLY HATES the original release of Blade Runner, with the voice over. But he acknowledges that there are people out there who like the original release more. With this new HD transfer, it is properly preserved, along with the 1992 and the new cut which is released nex year. With this strategy, he has STOPPED the bitching among Blade Runner fans, between those who prefer the 1992 version, and those who prefer the 1982 version, which felt betrayed that the oroginal version wasnt available on DVD and on Home Video for a long time. Ridley loves his fans.

The same with Legend, also directed by Ridley Scott. On the Ultimate edition, you get both the American Cut and the DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT Director´s cut with completely differnet score in ONE DVD package. You can´t go wrong if you do this! Again, a highly commercial succesful film contrary to the Star Wars franchise...

Take Terminator 2. Both longer version and theatrical release in one package, same picture quality. Makes use of Seamles Branching. In the case of T2, it is the theatrical version which is preferred by the director, but he admits that the added scenes of the extended version explain and show more, which is something die-hard fans really love (he admits it in the audio commentary)

Alien. Both versions available. Same quality.

Aliens. Both versions available. Same quality.

Robocop, the same.

(....)

All examples of how the fan base and DVD buyers are treated with respect by giving them WHAT THEY WANT in great quality. And don´t you dare to say that Ridley Scott is no artist. Ridley is one of the most artistically driven hollywood directors still there. The visuals and stories of his films speak for themselves. He has absolutely no problem to have on the one hand, his "artistic vision" and on the other hand, the theatrical original films distributed side by side in the same package. Why is this so hard for Lucasfilm what seems to be so easy for other major studios, with films not as close as commercially succesful???

This is why this whole OOT release, and this yadyadayada GL fans are making about it, that we should be grateful that we have gotten the movies, no matter how bad they look, since they don´t confirm to GL highly "artistic vision" (tm) anymore, this is why it is SO UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! I am so glad I like movies in general, and that I am not a hardcore Star Wars fan. This way, I can really appreciate all the other great DVD releases which have come out over the time now. AS much as I am disheartened by the OOT release, I am REALLY HAPPY that Blade Runner is finally coming completely remastered in HD in a mega DVD pack next year. What will Star Wars fans get next year? The same movies again on DVD. Those DVD versions which should have come out in the first place. And most probably without the original movies. With HD versions coming when DVD has sold off. DISGUSTING!

And i know that if it weren´t for the fan preservation efforts here, the OOT wouldn´t have been released at all to this day. Despite the fact that shortly after the release of the 97SE, Star Wars fans began to object to the changed made to these movies. This is just pathetic.
Post
#256976
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/256976/action/topic#256976
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
According to Lucas, he had time and money to do 3 squib setups for that shot. Each one went off with bad timing. He said in one shot Greedo shot way before Han, in another Han shot way before greedo, and in the one they used, they both went off at about the same time, but you couldn't really tell that. He didn't have time or money to do more setups, so he decided to live with that and try to make it clear through the dialogue that "the idea" was to kill Han.

Yes, he did the best possible in the original version to make the best out of the shot footage. What you can see now in the SE, this faked cgi dodge by HAN, is probably far worse than any mistimed take of the original footage.

Every director has to cope with this fact, that you sometimes can not get what you want during shooting. Did it make the movie any worse? No. The scene worked perfectly in the original version. Sometimes, it is the limitations that drive people to excellency. Many real artists will confirm this.


Didn't Tolkein rewrite his works for future editions? Did he also re-publish his previous works along side his new editions each time?

I don't see the difference here with what Lucas has done.


I´m no Tolkien expert, so I cannot comment on this.


If this is all just "commercially driven rubbish" then why are any of you trying to preserve it for the sake of "artistic history"?


No, what is done now to these films is commercially driven rubbish. Tell me, what artistic is about treating these movies basically as a commerical product, revising it every time it is going to be released, always adding gimmicks which are just there just to get tiny bits of new pieces for your money? If it´s really artistically driven, then I pity Lucas. Real artists know when they have to let go of their work, and they acknowledge that once you have it released, it becomes part of culture, part of the people who explore it. IF it would be for the art, then Lucas would be one hell of an uncertain artists, really not knowing what he wants to do. But luckily, I don´t think that any artistic ambitions are involved in the constant alteration of these classics. It´s the permanent answer to the question of the consumers "Hell, why am I gonna supposed to pay AGAIN for these old movies?".

Preservation is about preserving history. Not destroying original material. Star Wars is a 70´s movie, it looks and feels like a 70´s movie. And you know what? There is nothing bad about it! Nicolas Meyer said that every decade has its own way of making a movie. You see it in subtleties like camera work, acting, everything, the impact is always present. Once you temper with these works OVER 20 YEARS LATER, you create a hybrid, a fake Zombie. CGI does not belong in a movie from 1977 (unless of course it is 70´s cgi, like the impressive gouraud shaded computer face of Peter Fonda in Future World). IF Lucas had the technology of today back then, 3 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOVIES would have come out in 1977,80,83. Not just movies with cgi where you could put cgi in now, it would have influenced THE WHOLE creative process. The story would probably be different, with the writers knowing what could be done with cgi. The acting would be different, because they would have acted on green screen sets, instead of real locations. And this is one important point, which most people don´t understand today: these limitations were what made these movies great. What motivated everyone behind the camera to improvise, and make the best out of what was available. You can NEVER recreate this atmosphere, nor can you predict how these movies would have looked if the technology would have been different back then. This is the reason the original trilogy will NEVER, EVER fit together with the prequel trilogy, unless Lucas decides to remake them completely. I really vote for that: remake Episode IV-VI and let the originals be what they are. They are movies from 1977, 1980 and 1983. And as such, those movies HAVE TO BE preserved correctly, because they are part of motion picture history. Even the SE and SESE has to be preserved. They are documents of the late 20th, early 21st century cgi revisionism hype.
Post
#256956
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/256956/action/topic#256956
Time
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I'm just saying what Lucas did wasn't a crime. He was well within his rights to do what he did.

Yes, he had legally the right to destroy the original movies.


It's not like we all don't already have a billion copies of the O-OT already. Now we can even get it on DVD.


But these are not the original movies! A low resolution video copy is hardly a substitute for the original negative masters!!!! If these are destroyed, the movie is basically destroyed. It´s gone!


I don't know about you, but I will be able to watch the O-OT until the day I die. And if I want to, I can leave them for someone else after I've gone.


Argh, such ignorance....


To me, no harm no foul.


Yeah, only that the original negative is lost forever. That you will NEVER be able to restore them in original quality on modern formats. Only these low resolution DVD´s are left from these visual masterpieces. Yeah, definately no harm, no foul..........


The negatives may not exist as they originally were, but they do still exist as the basis for the SE version.


Yeah, with SE scenes cut in where the original scenes were originally. There is no basis for the original version anymore.

Look at the comparison pages HOW much was chaged. The special effects, even if there is still model work, was recomposited using the computer. Nothing left anymore of the original work. This is desastrous. It´s like tearing parts out of a book and rewrite them to rewrite history.
Post
#256951
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/256951/action/topic#256951
Time
Argh, this quoting is becoming a mess...

Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I don't deny the business side of Lucas, I just think that his idea of good business is to make the best product he can. I realise the non Anamorphic release isn't the best he could have done. To him the SE version was the best he could do. Then why did he put the OOT in it in the first place, from this point of view? Inferior films in shoddy quality. What about his "artistic vision"(tm) ? Well, having the original versions seemed to be really important to us.

Yeah, but what about his artistic vision then?


Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I just also understand where Lucas is coming from. I don't think it's about disrespecting the people who don't agree with him as much as he is respecting his own vision for it with a determined passion. Yeah, he is respecting his own vision so much, like changing the movies over and over again in each new release, always claiming that these have ALWAYS been his visions. Well I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. I don't think he is really trying to claim that he had the whole vision for the SW saga from the very beginning. I think he means to say that most of the things he did to change the classic trilogy were the result of things he couldn't originally do exactly the way he had hoped he could do it. Also each release has represented his "definative" vision "at the time" I think there was part of him that thought that he might only go so far with it, but then as he went he decided to go even further.

Like I said, if George Lucas does something, which might be a clear hint that he is just fooling around, the die hard fans will do the thinking and arguing for him to cover up his ass.


Originally posted by: Vigo
Honestly, you don´t believe this crap yourself, do you? Yes, I think Lucas has by and large been pretty honest about all of this. I think that he is just not the best public speaker, and with the way the media tends to present things out of context, he is largely just misunderstood.

Glad he has someone like you, who clears everything up for him.


Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Nobody could talk him out of making SW in the first place, and a lot of people thought he was crazy to do it in the first place. Why would he suddenly come to the conclusion that his detractors are right now? I think it is a bit selfish to not give a crap about the people who prefer the originals, but I honesty don't see many of those people giving a crap about what he wants either. You are right. With one small little mistake: Star Wars is not art. It´s a franchise, a product. A franchise is supposed to make money. And it only makes money, if it pleases the customers, i.e. the price is right according to the product´s value. Everything else is wishful thinking. You said it yourself, GL won´t be pissing money away for a non-profitable OOT restauration. So i won´t be pissing away my money for him. Simple. I think that art and business can both mutually exist if the artist is also the businessman. Lucas' artistic sensibilities are preserved in the SE version and whatever version is coming next year.

Sorry, but this is no art. This is commercially driven rubbish. Popcorn and Hamburger for the senses. Star Wars was never meant to be anything different. It´s space opera. This whole nonsense about his "artistic vision" came up when he tried to justify the changes made to the original movies, and market the new cgi effects in the special edition, to test if the time and technology was right for the prequel trilogy.

You were starting ok, but now, this arguments clearly becomes ridiculous.


For him to re-release the older versions, that's purely a consumer demand issue for him. If that can't be done without losing money, then he doesn't see the business sense in doing it. Artistically, he didn't want to re-release it at all.

What you are basically saying is the followoing:

- Releasing the old movies is a business decision from Lucas
- Constantly altering the old trilogy in order to sell the same old movies over and over again is now an "artistic decision"???

Sorry, now you are being REALLY ridiculous.


Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I know some of you have no problem with his changes as long as the original is provided along side of it, but by and large there is a lot of crap being flung in Lucas general direction over all of this. While I can relate to the hard feelings over his suppression of the O-OT and now his lackluster presentation of the O-OT, I think that there is a lot of disrespect given to him beyond that, putting down his artistic vision to the point where you might get the idea that SW was great despite Lucas. Well, if such a lot of disrespect is given to his artistic vision, doesn´t it occur to you that perhaps he might have screwed up the last few years, artistically? (Not monetary, all prequel Star Wars films did very well at the boxoffice). Why are these issues like "Han shoots first!!" so popular? Is everyone an ignorant bastard, who is incapable of seeing Lucas "artistic vision" behind it?
I think what happens is people get attatched to things. I can relate to the way a lot of people fell in love with the originals, and would just prefer to remember them that way. I don't think there is anything wrong with being disappointed in the changes, and I think there is nothing wrong with asking Lucas to reconsider his stance on releasing the originals. The thing is, not everyone cares about who shot first. Not everyone cares about the switch to Hayden Ghost in ROTJ. Some people actually think that's just fine. I for one think that by and large, Lucas hasn't really altered the classic trilogy. I think all the changes are mostly cosmetic, and don't alter the storyline or characters in any signifigant way. So yeah a lot of people weren't impressed, but that doesn't mean his artistic vision for these films is "wrong" it just means you don't like it.


And I never said something different. Of course, he may do whatever he likes to his movies. He may even burn the original negatives, and call this artistic self expression.

I only care for the original movies, and judge the decision he makes from this point of view. Who I don´t get is the fans, who are constantly trying to justify his decisions. I mean, shouldn´t a STAR WARS fan be concerned that the original movies are properly preserved for the future? Where is the logic to defend Lucas, whose "artistic vision" is clearly destroying the movies people grew up with? Destroying the original negatives. Preventing public viewings of original 35mm copies of the OOT.


Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
I'm not pointing fingers here, but surely you have to admit there have been a lot of insults sent his way.
Well, so what? What is YOUR concern about this? This guy is a big boy, with loads of money and who doesn´t care about his fanbase. You certainly don´t have to jump for him into the bushes, defending him from everyone who is so mean to him to put him VERBALLY down.
The only reason I really speak out about this is because I think that if we want him to care more about us, we have to be reasonable about it. If all we do is cry out that Lucas is a cold hearted businessman with no artistic intent in the first place, well I don't see why he -should- care more than he has.


Well, I say what I think, and his actions clearly back this theory up. Why should he actually care more, if everyone is rubbing his balls?

Again, the misconception that he actually released the OOT to please fans. They did it to clear the inventory and dry up the bootleg market. He said himself that he doesn´t care. Period.


Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The worst he did was not produce the versions everyone wanted to have on DVD.
The worst thing he did was destroying the original negative of the original Star Wars films. For every Star Wars fan, this should be unforgivable.
And yet somehow a lot of us do.


Well, this says a lot about the affection these "fans" pretend to have for those films.



Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
You don't see him putting down all the ways we might have done it differently.
He doesn´t need to, since he is in the position to get his way, no matter what everyone else thinks.Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
He doesn't say that the people who disagree with him are not artistically competant.
Again, he doesn´t need to.
My question is why do we need to do that in reverse? What does that gain for us? What purpose does that serve?


To be honest, for me, it serves my purpose of practicising the english language. And I like discussing with PEOPLE. To challenge my view against other views, and gain a higher state of consciousness. This is my "artistic vision".


Originally posted by: Vigo
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
The way I see it, he is stubborn about his vision, but gracious about the diversity of opinions out there.
Yes, of course we can all be so thankful that he so "gracious" about the diversity of opinions. Sorry, this is almost like hearing someone talking, who is not a fan but a member of a cult.
That's okay. I feel the same way about people who demonize Lucas.


Well, a demon implies negative emotions towards his fans or other people. I don´t think he has them. I don´t think he has any particular positive emotions towards his fans either. Like I said, Lucasfilm is a company, and clearly acts as such. Maximize profits. Selling the same stuff over and over again most efficiently. Going as far as permanently destroying the original movies. This is no art, this is fast food for the masses.
Post
#256925
Topic
Where do I go from here as a SW fan?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/256925/action/topic#256925
Time
Originally posted by: Wookie Wedgie
George Lucas: I’m the one who has to take responsibility for it. I’m the one who has to have everybody throw rocks at me all the time, so at least if they’re going to throw rocks at me, they’re going to throw rocks at me for something I love rather than something I think is not very good, or at least something I think is not finished.


Great quote. Makes me laugh. But what does he mean by "love" that's what I want to know? He loves to make Han look like a wuss? He loves to add CGI that he has to replace with better CGI only a few years later? He loves to tinker and continue to tinker and fuss and muss continually? Just what does he love about it? If he loved the story, he'd would have adhered to the story precepts he put in ANH. So, it can't be that. He just loves the tinkering around and futzing.


Yes. And we are all supposed to love it, too. This way, it would be much easier to sell your products. Oh pardon me, I forgot that this is just about "artistic vision"(tm).