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Valheru_84

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Post
#1272721
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:
The force has always represented meaning in the story and characters even if doesn’t always literally mean something on a literal plot level.

Could you please provide some examples from the OT so I might better understand your perspective. I don’t think I can recall any instances where the force itself has an impact on the characters or story, it’s alway how the characters themselves harness and use it. When you take away the human / sentient being using the force element, the dark side is not actually a literal half of the force that is evil nor is the light side “good”. It is simply “the force”, as Obi-wan explains it:

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together.

It gives a Jedi his power, it doesn’t define or directly affect them. Flip that for a Sith - it gives them their power and has nothing to do with being evil in itself. The “Dark Side” is a concept created by force users to define and describe in a name, the seductive nature of power in itself and how it can corrupt yourself. This is what makes a Sith - a force user who has given into selfish desires to use the power for themselves instead of defence only and that of helpless innocents. They corrupt the use of the force but the actual force itself is still without moral definition or intent. To put it simply, it’s a tool and it’s how the user uses it that defines whether it’s use is for good or evil.

DominicCobb said:
So it’s not necessarily that the force is a sentient determiner who’s giving the saber to Rey, it’s more like Rey has the stronger force in the scene because the film is saying something about these two characters. Kylo sees the saber and claims it as his own. But ultimately the weapon and what it represents belongs to Rey.

So what you’re saying, from my perspective, would be akin to saying that sunlight can determine between two people who the saber and what it represents belongs to. That part of the sunlight’s power is evil because some people harness it with magnifying glasses to kill ants and that the other “side” of this energy is good because other people use it to provide power and grow food for people to live on.

From just the movie perspective, what it is attributing to Rey should be shown through other means, not through some divine influence of events by the force which clouds and twists people’s understanding of it and it’s purpose in the Star Wars univers.

Post
#1272705
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

RogueLeader said:

Yeah, honestly, I think you’re overanalyzing the lightsaber thing a little. Rey stole it?

Luke rejected it. Luke didn’t want it, and he obviously didn’t care that Rey had it or he would have said something. Rey even offered it back to Luke again before she left.

Honestly, I think the whole movie Rey doesn’t even think it is hers. She doesn’t think she is the hero, she is merely the custodian of this Excalibur until she finds the real hero. At first she thinks it is Luke, he rejects it twice (for a multitude of reasons). Rey even thinks Ben might be the hero later in the film, and I think she brings the lightsaber with her in hopes that he will be the one to take up the mantle. She even tosses the lightsaber to him during the battle. It isn’t until she realizes that Ben hasn’t turned back to the light does she start to accept that maybe she might need to be the hero. And clearly when Luke says he won’t be the last Jedi, referring to Rey, I think that is him being cool with Rey having the lightsaber anyway.

And sure, if you go by bloodline, Ben might have some claim to it, but I think the movie has demonstrated that bloodline isn’t the end all be all. Rey catches the lightsaber at the end of TFA because she is “pure of heart” with “noble intent”, which is what the Force really cares about. Ben doesn’t have that.

This is my own personal opinion, but I think the only reason Rey is on this journey is because she demonstrated that she is empathetic person that wants to help others, which she shows us early on in the film when she helps BB-8. I think that made her worthy in the Force’s eyes.

I’m only analysing it myself to provide insight into my comment that she unwittingly stole it. When I use the word “stole”, it is for efficient simplification of the idea that she doesn’t have it by consent. I’m not saying for a second that she consciously stole it from Luke, she probably doesn’t have a high regard for possessions and sentimental value due to her own background and so probably doesn’t feel or sense any wrong doing by taking it without actually checking with Luke first. It doesn’t change the fact though that he never gave her leave to take it, which equates to it being “stolen” or borrowed permanently without consent if you will.

Your 2nd and last paragraph is an interesting take on the matter, though I’m not one who subscribes to the force being sentient or self-aware to any extent and the whole “light rises to meet the growing dark” is a misinterpretation of the bringing the force into balance theme and a “quick fix” on Rian’s part to explain Rey’s insanely quick command of the force and try to satiate the fan criticism around it.

In regards to bloodlines, I’m simply using these in regards to Ben as a technical comparison on someone who does have a birthright to these things and not that it’s the be all, end all. Also I took Rey’s force pulling and catching the lightsaber in TFA as taking Kylo by surprise, especially with it already traveling in that direction it would only take a quick last second use of the force to alter it’s course to miss Kylo and go to Rey instead. It has nothing to do with the Force choosing Rey over Kylo as to who should have the saber, in my eyes THAT is plain silly and twists my concept of the force into something unrecognisable from what I grew up with from the OT.

Post
#1272704
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

What I’m getting is, Rey needs to be jailed in IX for theft. Let’s Make Star Wars Pointlessly Pedantic About Possesions and Inheritance! That’s what the series has always needed. Can’t wait for the climactic court case where Kylo Ren claims ownership of the Falcon.

(also aren’t Jedi not supposed to have possessions anyway?)

Hyperbolic much?

SilverWook said:
Did Luke ever go back to Cloud City and look for it after ROTJ? And if we factor in the prequels, that saber has a lot of innocent blood on it. Something Luke may have learned about later since he seems to know Darth Sidious’ history.
For that matter, how long was Maz sitting on the thing? Before Luke went missing? If there’s anybody you should be peeved at, it’s her. 😉

I’m sure Luke simply assumed it lost for all time to the depths of Bespin’s gas clouds since anything that falls into the Cloud City inner shaft seems to get collected and dumped straight into the atmosphere.

I’m not peeved at anyone, it was just a minor thing I noted about the situation. That Rey technically never asked or was given leave to just take it so as I said, she unwittingly stole it. I mean, that is the term for when you take something that doesn’t belong to you without the owner’s consent.

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

You’re right regarding the saber (but I don’t understand your Lucas comment)

Lucas messed up, minimizing the importance of the saber by not making it his only one.

Ah ok. I wouldn’t say minimizing but definitely reducing the total significance it could hold. It’s a non-issue for me though in my view of the matter and how it pertains to this discussion.

DominicCobb said:

I’m not getting nit picky though, if you want to compare the two then these things need to be recognised so you can determine which elements in each case are apples and which are oranges and then see which of them line up. Also regardless of who currently possesses it, it will always be Anakin’s lightsaber as he made and used it in its initial life. When someone legitimately claims it as theirs down the track, yes you would call it their lightsaber (ie. “Luke’s lightsabre”) but when being respectful of it’s history you would still call it “Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber” or some descriptor as to their relation to yourself like “my dad’s lightsaber”.

Just because Disney markets the toy and replica sabers as “Rey’s Lightsaber” doesn’t mean when actually describing its history that you wouldn’t say “It’s actually Anakin Skylwalker’s second/third lightsaber which was inherited and used by his son Luke Skywalker, found by Maz Canata who gave it to Rey to return to Luke but kept it for herself without consent when Luke declined to accept it from her.”

To my point though, if you’re going to get nitpicky about the history, Luke didn’t inherit it. Obi-Wan stole it and gave it to him without Anakin’s permission. So it’s as legitimately Rey’s as it is Luke’s by your excessively literal-minded logic.

For the duration of ANH he inherited it as far as the audience is aware anyway which is where my “certain point of view” hand-me-down inheritance comment to Wook came from. Once we learn the truth in TESB we still don’t know the proper circumstances under how it made it’s way from Anakin to Luke and isn’t until ROTS that we see how events play out. You could technically say Obi-wan stole it, much like it and the Falcon are technically Ben Solo’s but there is no moral ambiguity around these circumstances when you take everything into consideration which is why it makes sense for Ben not to get those inheritances and for Obi-wan to take Anakin’s saber. The same cannot be said for Rey taking Anakin’s saber from Luke, the rightful owner now that Anakin is actually dead. There is no actual legitimacy around Rey now having it, only psuedo-justification.

It is not my intent to be overly literal and logical about it all (it’s just how my thought process works), my initial feeling that Rey didn’t have the right to just take the saber from Luke was just that - a feeling, which contributed to my dislike for the character. It is only in discussing and trying to explain it that I am looking deeper myself and laying out my detailed perspective on why I happen to see it this way, often in response to simplistic replies that seem to brush it aside as nothing of consequence despite it having an impact on the judgement of Rey’s moral fibre (which is why I also tie the matter into her physical abuse of Luke and threatening him with the saber which at this point is not even her’s to use).

Post
#1272605
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DrDre said:

CHEWBAKAspelledwrong said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

Mark should have got an Oscar nomination at least. He’s always had the acting chops. If not for the shadow of Luke hanging over him in the 80’s, he could have been cast in the Amadeus film after doing the role on Broadway.

It’s easily the best performance I’ve seen from him. Kinda weird that he still has sour grapes about the direction considering how great the role was, but then I guess if you look at the full quote he understands how lucky he is to have gotten another crack it at all. Another trilogy with the old cast as the stars was never gonna happen at this point, and if it did, it would have probably sucked.

I think most critics recognize Mark’s great performance, while still not liking the direction the saga has taken. I think it’s his best performance in the saga, but I just don’t buy the change in Luke’s character. It’s a great character, just not Luke Skywalker in my mind.

Do you really not buy it because it’s not believable? Or do you just not want to buy it out of stubbornness because you would have preferred something different? We’re talking a 30 year gap and a lot of experience and development in the interim for Luke. Frankly, it would’ve been less believable if he hadn’t changed.

I just don’t find it believable, that a man who believed his father could be redeemed, a father who had been a true monster, guilty of the death of millions, would even for an instant contemplate killing his newphew, long enough to ignite his lightsaber, his sister, and best friend’s son, a boy who had done nothing, but have dark thoughts. I also don’t find it believable that he would see a solution in exiling himself, waiting to die, while Snoke and Kylo Ren were still at large. It is the obvious choice to try and stop Snoke and Kylo. If Luke fails, he dies, which means he will get his wish of ending the Jedi, if he wins, he can still go to an island to die. So, for me the movie failed to provide a proper motivation for Luke to be so emotionally compromised, that he would forget his Jedi training, knowing the future is always in motion, and raise his lightsaber above a young boy’s head. It also failed to explain why from Luke’s perspective letting Snoke and Kylo run free without a Jedi to challenge them would be the best solution for the galaxy. Had the movie shown that Ben Solo had hurt a loved one, I might have bought Luke’s reaction in Ben’s bedroom. Had the movie shown, that Luke tried to stop Snoke and Kylo, but failed, because he couldn’t hurt his sister, and best friend’s son, and only barely escaped with his life, I might have bought his exile, but TLJ did neither. It just says Luke’s different now, deal with it. That’s not good enough for me. Major character changes should imo happen on screen, not between films.

^ This (as usual 😉)

Post
#1272489
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

OutboundFlight said:

Holds no ill will

The First Order has attempted to directly kill Rey and friends multiple times. They also just destroyed a solar system. Sure he’s acting friendly but that doesn’t excuse his actions. Kylo Ren is clearly unstable… so the last thing you want to do is give him a weapon.

While Obi-Wan and Rey may have different reasons for withholding their weapons both a perfectly valid. In fact Rey is more valid, as Anakin doesn’t care about his saber.

If this is in response to my post where I say “holds no ill will”, I’m talking about Luke in respect to Rey. Either way, I don’t really understand much of your post sorry, especially if in response to myself. If you wanted to quote me and respond to specific parts I think I’d have an easier time discerning what you’re trying to say.

Post
#1272488
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:
So Ben is the presumed heir and birthright of the Skywalker legacy and their immense force power but this fucks with his head and he messes up, meanwhile Rey is a nobody who no one expects anything of but who manages to achieve that which was expected of Ben simply because of his lineage… maybe this was on purpose.

Maybe it was, but from what has happened so far I don’t agree that Rey deserves to be the new bearer and heir to the Skywalker legacy and what you said doesn’t explain why she (as a nobody that has only spent maybe a few hours tops with Leia and the resistance command) gets to just inherit everything that is technically Ben’s. It also doesn’t make sense in that regard to why Rey and only Rey is sent to talk to / bring the now legendary Luke Skywalker back (Chewie does nothing except fly her there and smash down Luke’s door so Rey can barge in to lecture Luke, R2 just shows up to play the hologram video from ANH). Rey has only been in the picture where the OT characters are concerned for 0.11% of that time (0-34ABY) yet takes on board Luke & Han’s mantle, gets their iconic items and is fully trusted with potentially the entire future of the resistance that is resting all it’s hopes on finding Luke. The scenario is incredibly forced to say the least.

DominicCobb said:
Doubtful he helped him construct it as it wasn’t his first saber (silly Lucas). My point of comparison was a joke. It’s ridiculous to use the word stolen in either regard. But it is a term more accurate for Obi-wan, as the item was literally in Anakin’s possession as he took it. If you’re going to get nitpicky about something completely irrelevant like who the lightsaber actually belongs to, don’t forget Anakin never gave it away, so your point is on shaky ground.

You’re right regarding the saber (but I don’t understand your Lucas comment) since it was probably his first one that got destroyed in AOTC, though this doesn’t refute the other reasons as to why Obi-wan would take Anakin’s saber.

I’m not getting nit picky though, if you want to compare the two then these things need to be recognised so you can determine which elements in each case are apples and which are oranges and then see which of them line up. Also regardless of who currently possesses it, it will always be Anakin’s lightsaber as he made and used it in its initial life. When someone legitimately claims it as theirs down the track, yes you would call it their lightsaber (ie. “Luke’s lightsabre”) but when being respectful of it’s history you would still call it “Anakin Skywalker’s lightsaber” or some descriptor as to their relation to yourself like “my dad’s lightsaber”.

Just because Disney markets the toy and replica sabers as “Rey’s Lightsaber” doesn’t mean when actually describing its history that you wouldn’t say “It’s actually Anakin Skylwalker’s second/third lightsaber which was inherited and used by his son Luke Skywalker, found by Maz Canata who gave it to Rey to return to Luke but kept it for herself without consent when Luke declined to accept it from her.”

In my view, Rey never asked Luke if she could keep it and Luke never at any stage said she could actually take it and therefore my opinion of the matter is that she unwittingly stole it even though she probably wouldn’t see it that way and the movie doesn’t expect you to since you’re supposed to be rooting for Rey and not thinking to deeply. But those are the facts.

DominicCobb said:
“Something of huge sentimental value” - clearly not, at least in that moment, as he throws it away. You’re missing the vital semiotic meaning of the saber. It’s a whole lot more than just an object that someone does or does not have ownership over.

As explained to SilverWook above, you can’t simply dismiss any and all value due to a person’s immediate reaction and irrespective of the current circumstances and events leading up to that point. Him tossing it away doesn’t nullify any value he might or does still hold towards it. He could be supressing any number of feelings and memories about it at the time but later on as circumstances change, so could those feelings. Regardless of this, it’s still not Rey’s right to simply acquire his dad’s lightsaber under the assumption he simply doesn’t want it anymore. If she pretends to understand even half of the history around it, she would just leave it sitting near his shack where he will see it and leave.

DominicCobb said:
Man, I gotta circle back to this because your description of events is crazy. Let’s follow Rey’s path with the lightsaber, shall we? Maz gives it to her (who knows where she got it from), but she rejects it. Maz then gives it to Finn, who fumbles with it until he gets knocked out. Rey then grabs the saber in a pitched moment to face Kylo. From there, she searches for Luke and offers him back the saber. He takes it, but then throws it away,

Yep, all correct up till here.

DominicCobb said:
…not actually wanting it.

I don’t think this can be accurately ascertained from the information we have. Not actually wanting it in the moment? - sure. Happy to actually lose it again after it being missing for 31 years and for Rey to have it? - can’t be determined from what’s in the movie and he never gives her explicit verbal or indicative leave to take it.

DominicCobb said:
Naturally she picks it back up. But she doesn’t take it for herself, unlike Luke in ESB we never see the saber holstered on her belt. She puts the saber back in the bag where she had stored it en route to deliver to Luke. Later, while practicing with her staff, she thinks “fuck it” and takes the saber for a spin (though ends up semi-embarrassed with the results). After communing with Ben and entering the dark side hole, Luke tells her explicitly to “leave this island.” She believes Ben is her next best hope, but still once again offers Luke the saber. And, once again, Luke refuses.

Yep, all correct up till here though having only seen the movie once I had forgotten the second time she offers it to him, thanks for the reminder (I did a sanity check via a youtube clip as well 😉 ). It still doesn’t change the fact that she had no actual right to take it. Was she justified in taking it? That’s debatable and doesn’t change the fact even if justified for whatever reason that she’s still taken it without Luke’s actual approval.

DominicCobb said:
Naturally, she then takes the saber with her to the Supremacy.

Yep but the issue here is the word “naturally”.

Post
#1272487
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

SilverWook said:

I kind of doubt Luke is feeling too sentimental about the saber he was holding when his hand was lopped off on what was possibly the worst day of his life. 😉

I think that’s far too simplistic a view. Regardless of what happened on the day he lost it, it was his father’s lightsaber (who did save him, his friends and the galaxy at large from the Emperor in the end), it was also given to him by Obi-wan who is now gone and Luke would have many memories of his own with it between receiving it as a “certain point of view” hand-me-down birthright, training with and using it across 3+ years up till the point it was cut from his grasp (or his grasp was cut off? 😛 ).

Sure the day he lost it was pretty traumatic but that doesn’t automatically delete any sentimental or other value Luke may put in the saber and just because he throws away and later turns down the saber again doesn’t mean he wouldn’t go back at a later time or day to pick it back up. If he really wanted to get rid of it / not see it again for all time he could have just as easily force thrown it out into the ocean when Rey first gives it to him. He mightn’t have cared for it in the moment but that still doesn’t give Rey leave to just take it.

I know in my own reality that someone turning away something I offer that is rightfully theirs doesn’t give me leave to keep it without actual consent and that same moral compass extends to our perception of character actions and motives in Star Wars, no matter how far away it’s galaxy is. The fact Luke tossed it instead of handing it back to Rey could have also meant that he didn’t want anyone to have it, another reason again that without some form of verbal consent or unmistakable sign, it wasn’t Rey’s place to just take it. That fact she did because of whatever reason doesn’t undo the wrong doing of the act itself and so this needs to be taken into consideration when looking at her character along with how she hit him in the back and threatened him with the very same saber.

I’m not saying the movie wasn’t allowed to do this but it is why one (such as myself) might see it as a reason among many others not to like Rey’s character 😉

Post
#1272371
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Valheru_84 said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force…

Yep, that’s literally the point of her and Kylo’s characters. You’re so close, think about it a bit more and maybe you’ll understand the filmmakers’ intention and what I meant by “heir.”

Sorry, not getting your drift. Please expand upon what is evidently obvious to yourself.

DominicCobb said:

It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

I don’t even know what to say about this section. Except it’s honestly hilarious. Instead of “Rey’s Lightsaber” they should sell those toys as “Anakin’s Stolen Lightsaber.” Hahaha

(funny thing being if you trace it, it was actually stolen - by Obi-wan)

Technically yes, though Rian also could have just had Luke say something along the lines of “you keep it, it no longer holds any value to me” and hand it back to Rey instead of throwing it over his shoulder as some kind of forced joke.

In regards to comparing the Obi-wan vs Rey situations of obtaining the saber, the two are CLEARLY not the same and it’s pretty disingenuous to say so - one is keeping the saber of your now mortal enemy who is responsible for ending the Jedi order, murdering younglings in the process among other atrocities already committed by this stage. You’re not going to leave it within his force grip reach while he’s still alive. Also a Jedi’s weapon is not something to just be left laying around for anyone to find. He might even have some sentimental value in it himself if he helped his old student Anakin construct it.

The other is taking something of huge sentimental value from someone who’s birthright it is and you literally met a couple of days before and is obviously emotionally and mentally traumatised but holds no ill will towards you, instead only offering advice and wisdom (no matter how misplaced it might be) along with insight and help but you smack them in the back and threaten them with that very same object just because you are frustrated with them. You then proceed to keep it for yourself and leave the planet.

Yeah, pretty funny how they aren’t even remotely the same…

Post
#1272357
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

DominicCobb said:

Even if Rey isn’t a Skywalker, she is essentially the heir to that role and the bearer of their legacy. I believe it’s fitting that the end of the Skywalker story would focus on a non-Skywalker who will carry and pass on the torch after they’re gone.

I would use the word “usurper” rather than “heir”.

If you want to talk about a heir, technically it would be Kylo aka Ben Solo who should inherit Anakin’s lightsaber and the Millennium Falcon as birthrights, being the only current surviving member of that family.

Obviously because of his history that will never be allowed to happen but he still has far more right to that legacy than Rey ever will who is essentially a random with a ridiculous affinity for the force who just seems to automatically collect OT character’s iconic belongings as she goes along. It seems at this point that the Falcon is just hers to use as she will, complete with co-pilot Chewie who’s only job it seems now is to just fly her about and she essentially stole Anakin’s lightsaber since Luke never gave her leave to just take it, you could even say it was taken by force if you factor in her pulling the lightsaber on him before leaving. And that’s before you get into her role which does not feel earned in respect to her command of the force or suddenly integral role to the rebellion, but that’s an argument for another thread.

Rey may be the legacy torch bearer Disney needs but not the one we fans deserve.

Post
#1272331
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

OutboundFlight said:
My issue with the current “Skywalker Saga” is that the original six aren’t about the Skywalkers. The OT is clearly about Luke, the PT clearly about Anakin… but what about Shimi Skywalker? If this was the Skywalker Saga, shouldn’t her origins be at least explained? And Leia has been tremendously underutilized by both the later OT and ST.

I don’t like it being renamed as the “Skywalker Saga” myself, instead preferring just the “Star Wars Saga” though if Disney do make another saga down the track the Skywalker Saga name will be needed to differentiate them and is probably an indicator of Disney’s future plans anyway, especially if any of the planned new trilogies end up extending past 3 movies.

The Skywalkers are the common thread throughout the saga so it is fitting even though I don’t like the saga being renamed. You said it yourself, the PT is about Anakin Skywalker, the OT is about Luke Skywalker and his father, the ST is kinda about a Skywalker descendant and his mother and uncle who are both Skywalkers and we still don’t have confirmation on Rey’s lineage. So I don’t understand how you can say “the original six aren’t about the Skylwalkers” when that’s exactly what it boils down to and George himself says Star Wars is essentially a soap opera about family problems. Just because two other Skywalker relations aren’t front and centre as the leading focus of the story doesn’t mean it breaks the common family theme throughout the saga.

I actually really don’t understand your post at all as you effectively contradict yourself in the very next sentence o.O

Post
#1271749
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

Hal 9000 said:

(In moviemaking parlance based on how its presented; Luke’s being real murderous in reality.)

RogueLeader said:
Yeah. The music during that scene is very heroic, but if you think about it, him threatening Jabba with death, and then killing all of his minions doesn’t exactly scream “the Jedi way”. But I think it serves the story.

What IS the Jedi way though at this stage in Star Wars history? I don’t think it’s anywhere near as defined as it was later in the PT but even there the Jedi have no problem cutting down anyone they consider an enemy that is a continued threat to them or their charges. Yoda has taught Luke “A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack” yet where do you draw the line when your friend’s lives are at constant risk during a staged rescue where it’s chaotic with blaster fire going everywhere and things happening inside Jabba’s barge that you’re unaware of but you know some of your colleagues are in there, potentially fighting for their lives?

Sometimes the best defence is a strong offence and when you’re surrounded by murderous scum themselves who are only intent on killing you and your friends, it doesn’t leave many options on the table. I think Luke’s actions are exactly what you describe them as - heroic in defence of his friends. Once on the barge he doesn’t personally go hunt down and slaughter all of Jabba’s minions, instead just holding them off as Leia swings the deck cannon around. He does then fire it into the barge, but everyone on board IS an enemy and he needs to disable the barge in order to ensure they can get away without continued pursuit.

I think you can say that there is a little darkness in Luke here though since he casually force chokes two guards and is wearing all black like his father and in direct contrast to his white farmer clothes in ANH. You might even say his clothes show a transition from the white innocent naivety of ANH to grey in TESB that shows he is now somewhat tainted by loss and world experiences and he goes to full black in ROTJ after feeling his friends being tortured via the force, learning the most monstrous and evil man in the galaxy is his father, having his hand chopped off and choosing suicide over joining or being captured by Vader, then finally at the end celebration the top flap of his shirt is undone, showing it to be white underneath and that there was always and still is hope and light inside Luke despite the darkness shown on the outside and that he started heading towards in ROTJ. But ultimately his heart is in the right place and his actions during the rescue are all directed at ensuring he can get all of his friends out alive.

Also, glad to hear Ady that Boba will remain dead and I fully agree with what you say about bringing back dead characters. It not only cheapens their deaths but the deaths of any future characters because you start thinking “are they actually gone or will they just be brought back whenever it’s convenient to the writer?”.

Post
#1271580
Topic
Disney to buy 20th (21st) Century Fox? (Disney has now bought them - 14 Dec '17)
Time

DominicCobb said:

The possibility of an OUT release is merely a potential silver lining to what is otherwise a terrible, terrible thing.

^ This (with a couple of spelling mistakes fixed)

No matter how much we all want an official OUT release, Disney monopolising part of the entertainment industry is not a good thing.

Post
#1271479
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

ray_afraid said:

Valheru_84 said:
I get the feeling you think I’m of the opinion that ROTJ comes nearly straight after TESB

Sorry if I’ve responded to you before. I tend to forget what I’ve said n’ who I said it to around here anymore.

No, it’s not that. Instead I feel you simply missed my other reply a couple of posts earlier where I basically detail just by how different Luke is that I agree at least 6 months to a year has passed since TESB but the way you responded felt is as if I had said the opposite somewhere, maybe my comment about what Luke and Lando said before parting making a year implausible but I was just commenting solely on that one aspect alone irrespective of all the other factors that make it obvious that many months have indeed passed since TESB.

ray_afraid said:

There is also an issue in the line of thinking of actually being indoctrinated as one of the gang as then at some point Lando would have had to carry out acts that proves his worth to his employer and colleagues which likely then makes him not really suitable anymore as an honorable and trust worthy member of the rebellion (he’d probably have blood on his hands).

R1 shows that dirty deeds aren’t something the rebellion is above, nor should they be.

That may be so but I doubt it would be viewed in the same light by Luke, Leia and Han (or Chewie for that matter 😛 ) especially when there would already be trust issues hanging over from Lando’s initial betrayal at Bespin. Plus it really depends on the specific deed and the characters themselves. I don’t see Lando being remotely the same as Cassian for instance or capable of such acts in view of the “bigger picture” which in this case, is not the galaxy but the life of his friend who I doubt would be ok with Lando having murdered / put to death locals or done other despicable deeds in order to affect a rescue.

Plus I think at this stage in the saga story the Rebellion need to be a clean and shining example to the galaxy now that they’re out in the open, as opposed to the early days of trying to start the Rebellion while remaining hidden and sink to low acts to keep it that way or get an edge on the Empire lest they be snuffed out for all time…

ray_afraid said:

DominicCobb said:

Anyways, I think we’re a bit off topic.

Hm. Good point. *Fist bump

Yes, lets move on 😃 (though I agree Dom that 3 years really is implausible and I think people just mistake or confuse the real 3 year gap between movies for the time gap in the story)

Post
#1271452
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

ray_afraid said:

Valheru_84 said:

They pretty clearly spell out that Jabba has Han and that they will be meeting at a distant point in the future at the rendezvous but to have planned it for a full year away seems a bit unplausable. All I can think and read into it myself is that it took a lot longer to get everything in place that they planned

For Lando to create a character, gain trust in Jabba’s crew and become “one of the boys” had to take same time. We’re talking about the galaxy’s greatest gansta’ leading the galaxy’s greatest gang. You don’t just walk into that place, buy the room a drink and get accepted.
Luke has clearly advanced in skills. There’s certainly some time tied up there.
The entire Rebellion has evaded the Empire, regrouped and found a temporary place to hide while also fining out about the new Death Star, examining the layout and finding a way to destroy it.
A year seems easily plausible to me.

I get the feeling you think I’m of the opinion that ROTJ comes nearly straight after TESB, where in fact I grew up always feeling that a not insignificant amount of time (such as a year or more) has passed between the two because of what I listed further above (you might want to check a few posts back where I basically cover what you said about Luke in greater detail, so that point is moot in regards to responding to my view on time elapsed) and many other things that just gives you a general feeling of time having passed without having to try and specifically quantify it.

It’s only when getting into discussion about it that I’ve then tried to nail down a time period for myself based on how I interpret the movies and other information I have since learned (or been reminded of) and it’s because of what Luke says to Lando at the end of TESB that alone makes me now say a year sounds implausible as to what they had planned themselves then and there but obviously other factors have blown out the rendezvous date from what they probably meant to only be 2-3 months from when they parted ways. Which in the end is probably a good thing otherwise theoretically Luke wouldn’t have been the same Jedi Knight we see in ROTJ and probably couldn’t have pulled off the rescue.

So I don’t dispute any of what you just said, however I don’t think it would take a full year for Lando to infiltrate Jabba’s palace. We’re not to know as the theatrical audience how big Jabba is within the lore so I don’t think the “galaxy’s greatest gansta’ leading the galaxy’s greatest gang” has much stake in the plausibility of Lando’s infiltration.

There is also an issue in the line of thinking of actually being indoctrinated as one of the gang as then at some point Lando would have had to carry out acts that proves his worth to his employer and colleagues which likely then makes him not really suitable anymore as an honorable and trust worthy member of the rebellion (he’d probably have blood on his hands). The fact he is hiding his identity behind his face guard to me confirms that it is an actual infiltration that runs the risk of being found out at any time through recognition that he isn’t actually one of them and this is why I don’t buy that its part of the reason it has taken upwards of a year to conduct the actual rescue itself.

Post
#1271406
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

^ Ah yes, thanks for reminding me of that bit. It’s obviously been too long between viewings of the OT for me 😛

They pretty clearly spell out that Jabba has Han and that they will be meeting at a distant point in the future at the rendezvous but to have planned it for a full year away seems a bit unplausable. All I can think and read into it myself is that it took a lot longer to get everything in place that they planned for and likely had other imminent “imperial” issues to deal with at times before they could head off to rescue a lone rebellion member (when looking at it from a Rebellion leadership position).

Here is the clip for anyone else interested in revisiting what Luke and Lando discuss before parting ways at the end of TESB:

https://youtu.be/96DEWl3Vg70

Post
#1271397
Topic
STAR WARS: EP VI -RETURN OF THE JEDI &quot;REVISITED EDITION&quot;<strong>ADYWAN</strong> - <strong>NOW IN PRODUCTION</strong>
Time

MalàStrana said:

Sifo Dyas said:

Luke did not train between movies, because he would have been back on Dagobah, but he wasn’t.

He doesn’t train with Yoda, it doesn’t mean he didn’t train at all. Pretty sure Yoda’s training wasn’t about choking people or using mind tricks 😉

(has he found that in the jedi books we later see in TLJ ? Or a Sith holocron he got somewhere ? Who knows…)

^ This

In TESB Luke:

  • has to focus incredibly hard to pull his lightsaber to himself in the Wampa cave.

  • is still pretty amateur with the lightsaber, being disarmed only 30 or so seconds after beginning his fight with Vader.

  • is clearly rash and inexperienced, surviving Vader’s trap on instinct and raw ability.

  • can’t hold his own as he gets toyed with constantly by Vader.

In ROTJ Luke:

  • has had time to construct a new lightsaber (not likely an easy or quick task, especially considering there’s no one around to teach him).

  • has learned far greater control of the force now and new abilities, one which he would have had to figure out on his own as Mala pointed out. He uses these effortlessly, including when he whips his lightsaber up into his hand from the Emperors chair.

  • has far greater control over his lightsaber, so much so that combined with his new focus with the force that he can consistently while under pressure deflect/reflect laser fire now. He holds his own against Vader and ultimately beats him.

  • comes across from the get go as a changed person, one that is now calm, focused and confident in his control of each situation. He has matured and wisened in many ways, people clearly look to him for leadership now where before that was Han and Luke was the whiney young guy. It is now Luke the Jedi Knight calling the shots.

To me it is pretty clear a not insignificant time has passed between TESB and ROTJ just based on Luke alone. I can’t remember but is it even known to any of the rebel characters where Han has been taken? I can’t recall a time in TESB where any of them would learn about this, so on top of the rebel forces needing to regroup and get themselves in order again after the evacuation from Hoth, the gang also had to try and find out which system, planet and group had Han after probably initially presuming the Empire to have him.

So I don’t have any problem with feeling that anywhere from 6 months up to a year has passed since TESB which is in line with the seemingly generally accepted year between TESB and ROTJ.

Post
#1271389
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

The music in both ST movies has very much been another let down for me. TFA often seemed muted and more in the background, often going almost unnoticed at times which is unusual for Star Wars and TLJ just didn’t seem to have anything great going for it, nothing stood out except the overuse of character leitmotifs whenever they were on screen (at least as far as my memory serves me).

Listening to the actual TFA score on CD is a different story and is a pretty good listen though it’s still my least listened to Star Wars score and I don’t think I’ve listened to it at all since TLJ.

Post
#1271310
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

NeverarGreat said:

The TLJ soundtrack is definitely one reason it’s so hard for me to fully appreciate that movie. Whenever it seems like Williams will fully commit to a new theme there is some sort of rug-pull which interrupts the flow.

I wonder if that’s got anything to do with Johnson, TLJ showed him to be a serial rug puller 😛

Post
#1271308
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

Lesser said:

Zachary VIII said:

I don’t get why people bring up Vader’s redemption when saying Kylo should survive IX and be forgiven. Vader died in the end, even though he was redeemed. It would be really weird if he survived and showed up in the celebration scene of RotJ wearing white armor or something, with everyone being friends after a short apology like it’s an episode of My Little Pony.
Ben has to face some type of consequences or else it cheapens the impact of his previous actions. At the very least, even if he’s redeemed, he should exile himself like how Ulic Qel-Droma did.

100% agreed. I’ve seen good civil conversations on this site so far and hope nothing I say comes off as rude or condescending to anybody. Just my thoughts, so correct me if you feel. Firstly, I don’t even understand how the whole Reylo is a good message for the future generation. You can’t have Kylo violate Rey’s mind in front of the ashes of his victims, murder his own father, allow the destruction of entire planets, and have him be forgiven because love. It makes sense for Luke to want to redeem his father despite Vader’s actions, because Luke only ever cared about his father growing up. Rey barely knows Kylo and had to endure a lot of pain and suffering because of him, so she can’t fall in love with him no matter how sorry she feels for him after only one conversation in a hut, unless she’s severely damaged in the head.

If Anakin survived ROTJ, then he would face the consequences of his actions. He was only redeemed in Luke’s eyes and to the force itself by fulfilling his prophecy. Leia would certainly not forgive her father for years, probably decades. I feel like if they really wanted to shock the audience and have the story be satisfying to more people, then Leia should’ve been the one that was tempted to kill her son for becoming a new Vader, not Luke. This way, Leia learns something about forgiveness and maybe understands Anakin better, and the audience can finally see her deal with Vader being her father, since it’s almost like she doesn’t really care (other than in Bloodline by Claudia Grey).

This is a good post and I like your line of thinking with Leia.

Post
#1270716
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

nl0428 said:

There was a time when Star Trek was a dead series, before J.J. Abrams revived it.

True though I’m not sure if I’d say he revived it so much as “re-animated” it for a period and it has essentially been laid to rest again for the time being.

I more or less generally liked the first new JJ Trek but by number 2 they just felt like blatant ripoffs that had been converted into action movies with a Star Trek veneer.

Not a fan of Discovery either.