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The Bizzle

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21-Aug-2004
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14-Feb-2009
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Post
#260314
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III & IV extended edits
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260314/action/topic#260314
Time
It doesn't matter if Superman's sperm was still in Lois before he reversed time. The time reversal negated that, just as the time reversal in S:TM negated Lois being dead.

No it doesn't. Explain how it does. The two examples you gave are very different in that when Superman goes back in time, he removes himself from the equation--he's not on the planet moving backwards, reversing all his actions. He's up in space. He's not down there. Lois died because he WASN'T there, so he reversed time to when he could be. But the pregnancy is different because he WAS there. So you can't take back the sex, because he's not on the planet humping backwards in reverse. There's nowhere for the sperm to go back into. She's still pregnant by the end of Superman II, which is essentially the end of Superman I.

The Diner Bully isn't much of a kicker, either. Superman remembers what happened with that guy, and knows he's an asshole. Superman deals with those kinds of people. It can be pretty easily explained that no one in the diner recognizes this guy, remembers him at all, any of that. And as far as the "I just got this place fixed..." That doesn't necessarily have to mean it's a reference to when Clark was last in there. And people looking at him for an explanation as to why he's strong--even if they'd never seen him get thrown around the diner before, a stranger in glasses just walked out of the snow and spun a guy in a chair so fast it almost came out of the floor, and then calmly pushed him the length of the bar into a pinball machine. They'd look at him awed and quizzically at the same time.

The rocket Superman threw into space in S:TM is still out there and will still release the villains.


Is it? I've watched the Donner Cut a couple times but I'm pretty sure he rewinds time back to before he throws the rocket out into space. I figure he either deals with it a little differently, or he rewinds to before the kryptonite is dropped on his head and just takes Luthor to jail from there. I'll re-watch, but I'm sure all you need to do , if that's not made clear, is reverse some footage from the 1st movie, and Just extend the "I'm spinning the world back" stuff to include Lex's place, and then cut to Superman dropping Lex and Otis back off at the prison.

An even easier fix is to rewind to where he throws the rocket out into space--and then cut in footage from Superman IV where the rocket flies into the Sun.

The only remaining "hole" is Luthor knowing where the Fortress is, and that's something you can assume he figured out in jail, or in the 5 years Superman was gone, just as we assumed he figured it out in Superman II with that "alpha waves" nonsense.

The Superkiss is one of the Lester Powers that I can't stand. Spinning the world back twice is still preferable than the ridiculousness of "The Super Kiss" to me. Restoring that, you might as well restore the cellophane S and the finger beams. Sure, Turning the world back is a little iffy, but it WAS the original ending, and it's not like anyone re-edits Return of the Jedi to take out the 2nd Death Star

The trick with these movies is trying to balance all the differing tones and base conceptions of what Superman IS. Donner's ideas aren't exactly cohesive with each other, Lester's aren't cohesive with Donner's, and Singer's are a weird blend of Donner's and his own, and all of them have Superman doing things that comics history wouldn't really have Superman doing, although Superman in the comics has broken his own "rules" a couple of time.

But there is a throughline and inner logic to the behavior and the feeling of these Superman movies that they all share, and the trick is to adhere to that throughline as best as possible, even if that throughline might interfere with the personal conception of what Superman is based on any number of influences.

And for me, while I like that the Donner cut is out--If someone new to the cinematic world of Superman was asking my advice, I'd tell em to watch Donner's first movie, and then skip Superman II altogether and go straight to Superman Returns. Even if Donner had his way back in 78/79, Superman II was going to end up pretty flawed and corny.
Post
#260278
Topic
Info: Superman II Donner, and III & IV extended edits
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/260278/action/topic#260278
Time
There's other options no one seems to be considering.

If you want to make Superman, Superman II and Superman Returns, you could always re-edit Superman so that the movie ends how they originally planned it--he catches the nuke, throws it into space, and ta-da. Then Superman II can end with the world turning back, and Superman Returns can continue.

OR: You can just leave the world turning back in Superman II. Superman Returns still follows perfectly, check this out: Just because time has turned back doesn't mean Lois is no longer pregnant. In the silly version of "turning back time" that happens in this film universe--everything goes backwards, but Superman. Otherwise, when he was done, there'd be an additional Superman there on earth. So since Super-sperm can't jump out of Lois and back into Superman--the kid is STILL IN THERE after he reverses time all the way back to the end of Superman I. He leaves, she gets pissy, hooks up with Richard, and the kid that was already inside her, she just ASSUMES it's his.

OR: You can just leave Lois on the balcony, and Superman trusts her. And then he leaves, she feels betrayed, and finds a man rather quickly, and convinces herself that he's the father, not Superman. That makes interpreting Lois' actions part of the scheme, though, because then her "act" that she doesn't remember Clark is an act, indeed, for the public. That might be too much of a stretch though.

But I don't understand why you NEED the magic kiss if you're going to try and link Superman II to Superman Returns. Since Donner has moved Lois and Clark's sex scene to before he depowers, and then runs the world backwards, reversing everything BUT the fact he has his stuff in her, due to the rules of time travel in the film, she's still pregnant and doesn't know he's Superman. That sets up Superman Returns pretty perfectly. AND, Donner even hints in his cut that Lois MIGHT get an inkling, later. Which she does--and it all might come flooding back to her in the sequence where she leans over and whispers to him what's up. She remembers it all, finally, even if it didn't happen anymore after he turned the world back.

The Donner Cut ending to Superman II seems to fit in the continuity of Superman II better than the magic kiss does, if you look at it that way.
Post
#241001
Topic
Info Wanted: What is generally considered the best fan preservation version of the OT?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/241001/action/topic#241001
Time
I don't remember where I got it. I do remember--I think it was Neil Bulk--saying all you had to do to fix it was use the surround track from one of the other mixes, and paste that in to the 5.1 mix. I'm sure that's the most un-technical description ever, but maybe wherever I got it from just went ahead and did that. I dunno. I know there are fixed mixes out there.

Post
#240560
Topic
Info Wanted: What is generally considered the best fan preservation version of the OT?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/240560/action/topic#240560
Time
My picks:

Special Edition: Darth Editous/A Digital Man: Editous really seamlessly "fixes" the Original Trilogy to the point where I've shown it to oldschool heads and they don't even really realize they're watching an altered Special Edition, and at points forget they're watching a Special Edition at all. Digital Man gets CLOSE to that with his ESB and ROTJ SE's, but it's not QUITE as polished. Nevertheless, easily the best SE versions of the trilogy available on the fan front.

Original Versions: Editdroid. Sure, the picture quality on Mother's is better (and I need to grab those Reinventing the wheel editions, still) but the Editdroids are damn good, mild dot crawl notwithstanding, and include a seamless branching original crawl and isolated score on all three. Sure, ISOMIX has isolated score as well, but Editdroid has better PQ pretty easily, and I think the isolated score is actually more artfully edited together, save for a cut or two in ESB. If I had to go raw PQ, I'd get Moth3r's, but for overall value, Editdroid's is the way to go. I have a soft spot for Dr. Gonzo's, because he's my boy and he was one of the first to even TRY this, but Editdroid takes it.

Extras: Rowman's Supplemental Discs: They seem to be made specifically to be paired up with the Editdroids, but even on their own, or coupled with Mother transfers or your transfer of choice, the extras are great. Packs almost all the interviews you could think of, plus toy commercials, all the trailers, all the big documentaries, and a cool set of odds and ends typically round out his packages--Radio Dramas, deleted scenes, alternate takes, missing score, bloopers, stuff like that. Most sets have basic extra discs, but nothing as in-depth as what Rowman fits on his bonus discs

I've actually made a 12 disc set by putting the above together, and adding Deleted Magic by OCP, Building Empire by Jambe Davdar, and the THX Wow DVD. Here's the specs:

Star Wars
Disc 1: Editdroid. Features isolated score, seamless branched opening scroll (with and without episode IV) 4x3 standard, Dolby 2.0

Disc 2: Deleted Magic. Fan edited Documentary that details a LOT of the changes made to Star Wars, collected from damn near every available source and edited together. It's almost like an interactive commentary track. Plus it has it's own extras, I believe the entire RADIO DRAMA is also stored on this thing, along with some interviews, and Music Videos.

Disc 3: Darth Editous Edition: He took the 2004 Special Edition and fixed some of the more glaring continuity errors that are still around and available. Some of them you might notice. A lot you won't, he did it THAT expertly. Also took out the new jabba as well. Fixed the swapped surrounds in the rear channels, too. 16x9 enhanced, 5.1 Dolby Digital.

Disc 4: Rowman's Ultimate Supplementals: (menus are cleverly designed to match up with Editdroid's set even though they didn't work on them together) The making of Star Wars classic doc, narrated by William Conrad. Two different interviews with George Lucas, including the one from the last time the Originals were released, Trailers and TV ads, Key cast auditions, Toy ads, Deleted Scenes, and a Parodies section including Troops and Pink Five

The Empire Strikes Back
Disc 1: Editdroid. Isolated Score, restored sequence missing from some laserdiscs. 4x3, Dolby 2.0 sound

Disc 2: Building Empire. A fan made documentary, much like "Deleted Magic" except a lot more commentary like. Features jumps back and forth to highlight audio errors, changed shots, alternate takes and on-set bloopers. Extras include shots with deleted music restored, and an alternate scroll showing what was planned in an early draft.

Disc 3: A Digital Man's Special Edition: Takes the 2004 edit of ESB and corrects some continuity errors--The lightsaber shuts off on the cave at the right time, finally--and "Bring My Shuttle" returns to the film. Those are two of the bigger ones, off the top of my head, I know there are more. Digital Man isn't as savvy as Editous about messing with compositing, so some of the garbage mattes are still visible. Some of the cuts might feel jarring, but if I remember right, this thing is pretty much 95% seamless. 16x9, Dolby Digital 5.1

Disc 4: Rowman's Ultimate Supplementals: Interviews with Ford, Daniels, Fisher, Williams, a UK half-hour program featuring Daniels and some of the FX guys, Lucas' part 2 of 3 interview from the 95 VHS tapes, and SPFX: The Making of Empire Strikes Back. Trailers and ads for the first Box Set on vhs, Deleted Scenes (which are usually just some stills and comics pages playing over alternate dialog), Two Sesame Street appearances, an Underoos ad and a Toy ad

Return of the Jedi
Disc 1: Editdroid. Isolated Score, a trailer or two, some pre-prod art, the script, and a small sound effect library. 4x3, Dolby 2.0

Disc 2: THX WOW! This is where I cheated--there wasn't really a big behind the scenes doc disc for this, so I took THX Wow, a demo reel for THX systems that popped up on Laserdisc and briefly on DVD. Features damn near EVERY Dolby Digital and THX trailer ever made, a 15 minute THX mixtape of Lucasfilm's greatest hits, the Podrace in DTS, and a mess of DTS trailers. This will probably be replaced when "Returning to Jedi" by Davdar is finished.

Disc 3: A Digital Man's Special Edition: Takes the 2004 version, and corrects some continuity problems, as well as making some of his own creative decisions. For instance--Lapti Nek has been cut into the Jabba's Palace sequence, so the CGI Sy Snootles and her backup singers are now singing THAT. The volume drops however, when this happens, sorta distracting. But the editing is pretty good. Also, Sebastian Shaw has been returned as the ghost who shows up at the end. 16x9, Dolby Digital 5.1

Disc 4: Rowman's Ultimate Supplementals: Part 3 of 3 George Lucas 95 VHS interview. From Star Wars to Jedi and Classic Creatures documentaries, Trailers and VHS ad from CBS FOX, Deleted scenes like the last discs, TV ads for a toy sweepstakes, toy lightsabers, Star Wars cookies, Shrinky Dinks, and Super Nintendo. I know, no C3P0's ad. Also, the 15 minute THX Wow mixtape again, and a little doc on the soundtrack, narrated by James Earl Jones.

The Covers are made by myself--they're harsh on a printer, but Kinko's should be cool for that purpose all follow this template, I use those 4 disc cases you can get at Best Buy or Circuit City that are the same size as a single disc case

http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/899/anhcoversmallir4.jpg

I'm pretty sure those covers are in Rikter's cover torrent. I think they are, at least.
Post
#240297
Topic
Selectable crawl on new DVD? Or just the old one?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/240297/action/topic#240297
Time
"Please keep on topic, and take the screenshots to the right thread: So, this is how the DVDs are going to look..."


Boris, I posted the screenshot comparisons here because you've turned that thread into such a ridiculous clusterfuck of epic proportions that it'd be utterly wasted if I put it there. Who would look at it inbetween you line-by-line fisking with your nonsensical bullshit? So I figure I'll put it here, where people are actually paying attention and reading and conversing nicely as opposed to whatever the fuck it is you're doing in that shitpile of a thread you're trying to steer people to.

And to answer THX's suspicion: No, the Editdroid set was not made by people from LFL. Although I can understand the initial secrecy leading one to believe that. What's funny is that, especially with ESB, the transfer difference is so small as to be negligible--and the guys behind Editdroid did theirs like 3-4 years ago, including alternate crawl selectable by seamless branching AND an isolated score, all on single layer, and it's STILL almost beating the Official release. Which is insane.

And if Editdroid's is that close, I'm very certain Moth3r's and the X0 kill it utterly.

The crawl, if we're looking at the starwars.com screencaps, looks re-created, if only for the color...the original color was a lot more orangish, as seen by the Empire of Dreams doc.
Post
#230120
Topic
The "original crawl" on the new DVD is NOT the original crawl! Screenshot inside!
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/230120/action/topic#230120
Time
With this little bit of info, and the word about the transfer quality, I'm starting to seriously wonder if they're not just packaging the editdroid rips.

Seriously. I mean, these could straight up be the Editdroid rips for the quality and the amount of effort LFL is putting into this. I'm sure I could sucker some people into betting me money. I mean, I know I'm probably way wrong, but it's close enough that it doesn't make a difference. Editdroid team essentially pulled off Lucasfilm's release of the Original Trilogy onto DVD about 5 years ago.

Except they managed to fit in seamless branching doctored opening scroll AND an isolated score. LFL couldn't even do that.

Wow. It's like they set out to find EVERY worst case scenario possible, and then lived up to them all.
Post
#214429
Topic
The level of acceptability for an "O-OT"
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/214429/action/topic#214429
Time
My worry is that bringing up the "restoration" word is sort of playing straight into their argument. They're using the 'it's too spendy to restore' these films excuse, and so talking about restoration is like throwing a fat-change up down the middle. I'd rather argue for a simple NEW SCAN. You don't have to restore, you don't have to clean up every last frame of dirt or whatever--just get more detail in there. Scan the film elements, do a quick pass, and output that to DVD. Much easier than all the cleaning and frame by frame, and certainly a lot less expensive. Plus it runs around the end of their argument about money and time constraints.

Post
#214426
Topic
Lucasfilm lunch hour
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/214426/action/topic#214426
Time
Uhh, are you trying to say there is some kind of conspiracy where corporations control what news is reported for political reasons?


Whoa. Fuck no. I'm just saying that corporate heads tend to be more right wing than left. I'm not implying that bias leads to any sort of conspiracy, it was just the initial statement seemed to say something about a left-wing bias or whatever, and that looked highly erroneous. I'm happy you've posted that it seems the corporate ownership of most major companies in America appears to be nicely divided between right and left wing, although you're talking about FUNDING, and I'm merely talking about the political affiliations of the people at the head of the companies, not where they spend their money. As we've seen with Abramoff and the latest Williamson scandal--both parties will cross political lines if it means it'll make em more money to do so.

Although again, this has jack stamp to do with this subject and should probably go in Off-Topic.
Post
#214423
Topic
We have to buy this set atleast to preserve it for the next generation of fans
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/214423/action/topic#214423
Time
I don't have kids and I don't give a fuck about em anyway. that argument has always sounded so fucking bullshit to me, almost religious zealotry, even. I'm not asking for a good product "for the kids" anymore than I'd ask for a hi-def DVD player this christmas "For the kids."

The reasons not to buy this is that the product is sub-par. that's it. If I'm gonna settle for sub-par, I'll settle for free. And I already have. I guarantee the 4 disc set I've put together from fan preservations is going to bring "the kids" about 3 tons more enjoyment than this actual release will, AND I won't have to re-buy the 04 editions to get it. But paying money for this? No. I'm not about to be frightened into buying something that doesn't look good in the hopes I'll get to buy it again later when it DOES. that's ass-backwards.
Post
#214029
Topic
Time to accept what we are given and be grateful?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/214029/action/topic#214029
Time
I'm pretty sure they'll use the PAL masters used for the PAL THX WS LDs released in Europe.


Actually, according to another film archivist/restoration expert on the HTF, the Laserdiscs released in PAL format from the 93 masters were upscaled from the NTSC. there were no real PAL transfers. It would be the same thing here. If there were PAL masters I'm sure they'd work from those and convert them to NTSC for the increased resolution--but they're not. the NTSC masters are what they have, and the PAL DVD's will be sourced from that.
Post
#214028
Topic
Lucasfilm lunch hour
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/214028/action/topic#214028
Time
People boycotting this DVD release (even though I understand why) is going to hurt us. We need to see these sales do extremely well. Amazingly well.


I don't buy that. DVD purchases aren't investments. They're product. I pay for something because I want the product inside. I don't buy something in the hopes that a couple years down the road I'll finally get a chance to PAY again for what I wanted in the first place. SCARING me into a DVD purchase doesn't work, because DVD's aren't important enough (for as much as a film enthusiast as I am) to SCARE me into parting with my money. I wrote something similar at the HTF, but here's the general idea, as I see it:

In this instance, the movie I'm buying comes with a movie I already own and has been offered one more time after I already bought it, and the quality of the movie I REALLY want is sub-standard. Besides which, I already essentially OWN a copy in that sub-standard quality because the release is 13 years old.

If the only reward, for me, is that maybe in the future I'll get a return on my 20-30 dollar investment, essentially getting what I paid for a year or two down the road, then that's not much of a reward. That'd be like buying a movie ticket and then being told that MAYBE that movie will play 2 years later, so check back then.

Assuming how this is going to work is dangerous, because no one really assumed we'd get this. Ever. Maybe some of you did, but that's not really the point. There's also no guarantee that everyone buying this is going to mean they'll release it again. You could just as easily dream up a scenario where Lucas says "Well, look how many people bought that. See. Now they've got it. We dont' have to sweat it anymore. it sold like hotcakes so most of the people who could have ever wanted it now have it. They're happy. moving on."

It's just as easy to paint the picture that everyone buying it could ALSO mean it'll never get released again. It's just as speculative and specious.

The only thing you should be basing your purchase on is whether the product they're offering you is worth it FOR YOU. Don't buy it thinking it's an investment into later purchases you might make. That's essentially consumer blackmail. Eventually it's just going to leave a bitter taste in your mouth.

and not to derail the thread into something political, but take a look at who owns what media outlets and then look at what their political affiliations are. Then look at the ownership of most major corporations and note THEIR political affiliations. It's pretty easy to see which way the powers that be typically lean.

but that's neither here nor there, really. Should probably be finished up in the Off-Topic forum.