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31-Aug-2004
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4-Dec-2019
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421

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Post
#62397
Topic
What did we all expect from the Prequel Trilogy?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62397/action/topic#62397
Time
No flames, dude. I agree. I did what networking I could (I was in the bay area at the time) to get involved and got a significant way up the chain, but in the end all I got was a couple nice letters and a free Darth Maul bookmark. Even after Episode I, I saw how it could be taken and crafted into an amazing twist on the old Star Wars. But I failed, they didn't want my help. It was silly to try, but I did it anyways. I could have written certain parts of the story better (or so I feel).

There's a ton to say on this point, but this is central: in the OT, the main character is Luke. Luke learns the force, struggles between good and evil, makes a commitment, a sacrifice, and reaches victory. Vader, Leia, the Emporer, and so forth are all steps in his journey. They are foils, obstacles, etc. Vader especially take the shape of Luke's challenge and his decision, just like in the cave scene with the vision of the duel. Vader embodies Luke's struggle. Vader is a vehicle of Luke's developemnt.

I expected the new trilogy to turn that completely on it's head, and that excited me to no end. Suddenly, Vader would be the main character. We would see his own journey, his fall, and his eventual redemption. Luke would now be a vehicle of Vader's development, and the final scene would be first and foremost about Vader's ultimate victory, rather than Luke's. (they will always both be there, but the focus changes.) I thought this complete overturn would be awesome. The story of Luke, which could sustain itself, would be set against a new backdrop and support an even greater story.

What I found was the story of Vader subjugated to the history of the empire, special effects lust, and political drama. Vader is woven in, but while it should be the center-piece, it's a subplot.

I actually LOVE Hayden in the role (you all can kill me now). I think he's awesome and perfect. But the script, the philosophy of his development, and the attention it receives drain the new trilogy of what I, personally, thought it could be.

(Speaking of all this, this always gives me chills. What if Luke, upon his father's redemption, had just stayed there with him in the throne room and held him until the Death Star blew up? (they still take off the mask and have the same conversation, they just don't get on the shuttle) Would have been a very different ending, but what it does to Luke's character...)
Post
#62388
Topic
The tauntaun stiffy thread
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62388/action/topic#62388
Time
If you read "the infamous chest grope" thread you'll see where this came from. I'm just curious how many views we can get with a topic like that.

But, now that you're here, here's the question:
What's the worst line from each of the three films? My votes:

ANH: "look sir, droids (...twist...twist...twist...)" - Stormtrooper on Tatooine
ESB: "two fighters against a star destroyer?" - Unnamed extra on Hoth
ROTJ: "you rebel scum" -no credit necessary, we all know this one
Post
#62315
Topic
Renewed Faith
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62315/action/topic#62315
Time
Ah, stir up the old pot again, eh?

I'm a philosopher and a purist, but not die-hard purist. I recognize many of the crucial changes and disagree with almost all of them, but for some I recognize the need. In general, I now feel like the OT was a masterpiece based on 1) teamwork 2) coincidence. I don't think George ever knew what made them what they were. Like Speed 2 (I hope you didn't see it). They tried to lift the elements out of Speed 1 that made it work, but they lifted the wrong elements.

In brief, some of the mistakes that were made: replacing puppets, costumes, scenery, and models, replacing *ingenious* forms of communication with subtitles and cultural accents, replacing a character-development driven story with a plot-development driven story, filling Threepio's old role with Jar Jar (yeah, that didn't so much work as...not work...), having George monopolize the process by writing the script and directing, and replacing the microcosm with the macrocosm and so sacrificing depth in the experience.

And so on. I guess the details aren't that important, just want to show that I have reasons behind "it doesn't feel like star wars," I recognize those reasons, and I think they not only undermine the new trilogy, but start to erode the foundation of the old trilogy. Each of those reasons deserves it's own thread and discussion, but that's not what this is about.

I CAN, through rationalization and exposure, enjoy the new trilogy more and more. That's what I was doing. But what I was talking about in my first post is that doing so takes away from what I had in the old trilogy. I value more what I had before Episode I was around than what I can get with this expanded universe.

What am I going to do? I don't know. I'll likely continue to try to straddle both worlds, try to focus on the old trilogy but still develop an appreciation for whatever continuous story Georgie finally develops, because I can't help myself. It's Star Wars. But I will boycott this release, on the principle that we who loved the old trilogy made George what he is today (well, we were the vehicle through which his movies made him...). If he wants to forget about all that, I still want to remember. And if he has no interest in what was important to us, then I will not take an interest in what is important to him, whether it's as shallow as more money or as noble as completing a 25 year old vision. If he wants to throw out our treasure, it's ours now, and I at least will try to take care of it.

What that means is preserving what the OT used to mean to me and how it spoke to me by keeping it pure in my memory and sharing in it with all you kindred spirits.
Post
#62298
Topic
Renewed Faith
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62298/action/topic#62298
Time
Hi. I'm an early signature on the petition but didn't get on the boards until this week. Never did the message board thing before. Just wanted to give a shout out to this community, my faith in Star Wars has been rekindled.

I've been reading through a lot of the old threads, and it's clear not everyone's coming from the same place. Some love the PT, some don't. Some just prefer the OT, some won't take anything else. Some hate George, some are just disappointed that Star Wars has moved on. Some love the edits, some think they're preposterous.

But everyone here knew Star Wars as it once was, and whether or not they love the new stuff and re-done stuff, EVERYONE loved the old stuff. I haven't been around a crowd who really appreciates and remembers what it once was in a while, or a crowd who cares so much.

Shout out to the the web host, the DVD guys, the cover art guys, the star wars philosophers, the minutiae-ists, the argumentative types, the purists, the optimists, the collectors, the experts, and the simple enthusiasts. You have brought back a part of me I didn't realize I'd lost; the part that watched episode 4 every week for two years growing up and stayed up at night marvelling at the psychology of Threepio.

To everyone here, thank you.
Post
#62281
Topic
Lucas: Madman or Genius?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62281/action/topic#62281
Time
What are you talking about? I dig your answer. So it's none of the above. Like number 2 he's trying his best, but like number 1 he doesn't even know how he's doing? I can definitely see that. And I agree that he definitely cares. He just doesn't care about the star wars universe, he cares about pioneering and stuff. Which is why those of us who focus on the SW universe don't appreciate all the stuff he IS doing. Makes sense.

Anyway, I also agree with you on the lightsaber dueling. The old effects and stuff. And I think the dialogue between Vader and Obi or Vader and Luke make for a much more epic confrontation than the athleticism of the fight. Just another reason the old duels move me more than the new ones.
Post
#62279
Topic
The infamous chest grope
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62279/action/topic#62279
Time
Have NOT seen the Taun Taun stiffy. When does that happen?

On the potato in the asteroids, has anyone seen it and do you know where it is? I've looked and can't find it.

AND, just in case there's someone here who hasn't seen it (I can't imagine it, but better safe than sorry), check out the stormtrooper on the far right of the screen when they come into the Deathstar control room where Threepio and Artoo are hiding (ANH).
Post
#62192
Topic
New Star Wars movies
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62192/action/topic#62192
Time
Yeah, or Pixar could do them

But seriously, I remember reading a quote in Time or something before episode II. Lucas was talking about his "great success" (quotes mine) of Jar Jar and what a technical masterpiece it was. They did not yet have an Anakin and he said that they had fiddled with the idea of a CG Anakin. He said (now the quotes are his) "the decision would be so daring, the fans would just love it."

It's like when your mom puts something on your plate and says "try it you'll just love it."

(for the Family Guy fans "Excuse me! Did you just tell me what I LOVE?!?" - Stewie, about Broccoli)
Post
#62191
Topic
So whats better? Phantom or Clones?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62191/action/topic#62191
Time
Hey, don't forget "are you an angel?"
---
Yeah, maybe Lucas has had too long since he wrote a resume.

Rule of resume writing: don't tell me about it, SHOW me. Don't tell me THAT you did it, show me how you did it.

Likewise, don't just put them in a position so I know that they fell in love, SHOW me that they fell in love.

And NO, falling off a Naboo Cow and pretending to be dead does not constitute falling in love.
Post
#62170
Topic
DEVASTATED
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62170/action/topic#62170
Time
I think it's a case of good and better. I loved Boba's old voice. But having Jango and Boba and the backstory I think makes Boba Fett even better. I'm ok sacrificing the old boba fett for a deeper character, because he hasn't necessarily lost any of his mystery or anything. He's just got a triggering action in his youth. Hopefully, in ep3 he'll be a bad-arse recluse, just with an accent.

Anyway, it's a change I'm ok with. Best of all worlds would be just the OT, but if he wants to sync all 6 together, I'm ok with a voice change.
Post
#62169
Topic
Lucas: Madman or Genius?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62169/action/topic#62169
Time
We've all debated what on earth happened to Lucas. In 1999, I went from idolizing to resenting him in about a week's timeframe (funnily enough, around the time Episode I came out). I wanted to offer three different takes one what on earth happened and hear everyone's input again.

1) Pride/Greed - George basically went downhill. He either wanted to milk his cash cow and so re-marketed his old stuff, or just lost touch and wouldn't listen to input, advice, or view his works critically, thinking he was untouchable. These seem to be the most common views.

2) Well meaning, but lost his genius: as a music writer, I'm familiar with this phenomenon. Sometimes you write part of a song, and it just WORKS. It flows, it's great, you have a vision. But trying to complete it, suddenly it just doesn't work anymore. Perhaps he really is trying, and for some reason what flowed and jibed before just isn't coming anymore. This seems to be at odds with what he says in interviews about the quality of his work, but maybe he just wants to put the best face on it.

3) Utter genius: I find this theory the most interesting. ANH was different from eps 5 and 6. The script was a little simpler, the plot was a little more fairy tale-ish, the whole thing was more campy, lower budget, and so forth. In the CONTEXT of 5 and 6, though, 4 becomes a real masterpiece. Not just enjoyable and great, but truly respectable in other ways. In a similar way, I at least enjoyed TPM much more in the context of AOTC, it gave it context and substance and purpose. Perhaps episode 3 and these changes to the OT are all part of a master plan that needs to be completed before it makes sense. Perhaps the SE releases and changes were all part of this larger plan that we can't appreciate until it is done and can see the whole thing.

I held onto that hope for a long time, but it is waning. I don't see how certain changes can fit into a whole, but I haven't seen the projected 2007 version of all 6 films yet.

Anyone holding out hope? Any idea what caused this change in what used to be a beloved man to all of us?
Post
#62079
Topic
The 1997 SE's - My take
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62079/action/topic#62079
Time
1. yub yub is good. It feels triumphant to me. The new one feels more like "hey, we did it. Let's go chill." And the old one worked because it was in the microcosm. The whole movie was this microcosm of a few people's lives travelling through this huge event, but you were always there in the microcosm. Likewise, yub yub fits the ewoks well, and stays in the microcosm. The galactic celebrations, the professional music and all; it's at odds with the microcosm mentality. Which, I think, is where the new movies might suffer. George is a microcosm kind of guy, and the two new movies try to capture the movement of the entire galaxy.

2. Even if Lucas meant to put scenes like Jabba in originally, maybe it turned out better. All of us here agree that maybe giving George the free reins doesn't give the best results I prefer it out, and whether it was on purpose or due to limitations, we won back in '77 (or y'all did; I was still living as an egg back then).

3. Even the original trilogy isn't infallible. Like so many others, I have a love-hate relationship with the Ewoks. JUST IMAGINE that last scene taking place on Kashyyyk.

are you imagining it?

Yeah. Originally they were supposed to be wookies. Georgie decided that he liked wookies too much to have them solely in the last film (good call) so he made Han's copilot a wookie (another good call)(based on his pet Malamute) but then decided that two sets of wookies wouldn't work (augh! bad call! bad call!) and so cut the wookies in half and voila! Ewoks! Short cute wookies! I wouldn't have minded having another set of wookies, myself. But, at the same time, Ewoks now have a special place in my heart.

--
In general, I don't like the SE's. George has developed this knack for making a really small change that has a huge effect on the film. And even though most of the changes are small, they completely change certain themes or atmospheres. And sure, I'm coming from the perspective of being raised on the old versions, but what's wrong with that? They were around for a long time, we all loved them, it made Georgie. Kinda thankless to turn his back on us now that he doesn't need us anymore.
Post
#62054
Topic
So whats better? Phantom or Clones?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/62054/action/topic#62054
Time
Feels funny to comment, since it's all been said before and I'm sure you're familiar with any reaction I had. I preferred AOTC. I also think that, in the context of AOTC, TPM made more sense and became a little more worthwhile. In general, though, as you have said, it's just not star wars. Some points that haven't been made in this thread:

1) giving alien races cultural accents rather than language. Having Threepio translate Artoo, and Han repeat back to Chewie everything he said was genius. It worked so well. Because there's so few subtitles, you don't notice as much, but much of the original trilogy was communicated without English. Both new movies fail here, it's either cultural accents (mexican for the junk shop dealer, vaudeville for the announcer, Japanese for the trade federation) or subtitles, and the universe isn't as good.

2) contrived settings. Why the crap is Amidala holding an audience in full dress on her transport ship, to "commend" a droid? Doesn't make sense. And so forth. Doesn't feel natural.

3) obviously the script was written in "higher language." Anakin and Padme don't use contractions very much, for example. However, they still behave and act like normal people you'd see in a TV mini-series. This disconnect makes the whole thing feel unnatural and forced. If you don't have Sir Alec Guinness, you can't expect a shakespearean performance so don't write shakespearean.

4) the movies rush along to endpoints. Lucas is trying to get from Old Republic to the start of A New Hope. He has certain conditions to be met, and the movie seems to be driven by navigating from condition to condition (war, empire, anakin to vader, marraige so that luke and leia can be born...) rather than unfolding naturally. It's a tough situation to be in, and it seems to be too much for Lucas. Again, they feel unnatural.

That being said, as I get used to them, the movies get better. I liked AOTC just because it was exciting. Going back to TPM, I realized there were just a few sticking points ("ye gods" - jarjar (hello? gods? in this universe? it hurt me., midichlorians, "there was no father", "are you an angel?", the attack planning scene with stilted dialogue) and the rest of the movie plugs along pretty well. Like my four points above, AOTC suffers from most of the same problems. A few less major sticking points, but still forced. In the end, it was a fun romp with an exciting battle and tie-together, with a good lead in to the next movie, so I left happy.

My first realization was that because of the Star Wars name, I had expectations which led me to dislike the movies. Later I also realized that without the Star Wars name, I would have watched them once, enjoyed them, and never thought of them again.

Now the clone wars cartoon series; that was good star wars. Any input...is it just because it's 5 minute serials and cartoons that it felt so much better, or did it just better capture what star wars is supposed to be?