The 3 second ending has already been “recreated” on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx9621xMI48
Just starting reading through this thread and saw someone linked a video I had made years ago haha. But I too am interested in these little changes in the original film (hence me making that video in the first place) :p
Yes you are correct and I wasn’t trying to conflate the two. But the idea still stands that for Fantasia they recorded 8 individual tracks to send to whatever speaker they wanted to. In a modern recording a sound engineer might just decide on a permanent playback speaker depending on where the instrument is physically located in the soundspace. But thats not to say they couldnt feed, say a woodwinds mic, through the left then right then rear etc. to create movingc clarinets. Its very possible today but A LOT more work and ultimately based on a creative decision.
So I’ve tried to distill what is missing from today vs then. If you take it down to the most basic elements you had
8 input tracks
3 output speakers(or 5 if you used Mark X)
What we have today is a mono track (possibly a mix of input track 7 and 8) and a stereo track of which I don’t know how the mix down was performed from the initial tracks.
Ultimately the point being that the dolby 1990 mix is the best separation we’ll get but there is still potential for a 5.0 true remake of it on modern computers, which would be more accurate than the DVD version.
After reading through http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/fantasound1.htm again it sounds like my scope is more of “remaking the dolby surround” track using a standard 5.0/5.1 channel setup. Since Terry Porter was working with the same two channels we have access to this would be like a refresh, trying to emulate the directional sound using an keyframed surround panner. As others have said, the DVD mix wasnt very good and the 7.1 mix wasnt much better, but I feel there is a lot of potential here. Still is a shame the original stems are long gone.
Although I am curious if anyone has recorded a modern classical performance for Surround/Atmos yet, because that would essentially be a modern Fantasound, at least the Mark II version. As said in the write-up “Separate channels recorded close pick-ups of violins, cellos and basses, violas, brass, woodwinds, and tympani. The seventh channel recorded a mixture of the first six channels and the eighth channel recorded a distant pick-up of the entire orchestra.” Seems like that would be very easy on a recording today.
Look:
Mark I - 3 front horns, two rear…essentially a modern day 5.0 system
Mark II - 3 front horns, two rear, two sides, one top… a hybrid 7.0/atmos system
Mark IV - automated TOGAD of Mark II
Mark VI - reduced back to 3 front horns. First Fantasia Dub
Mark X - added back the two rear horns to the Mark VI system, and used on roadshows…again a 5.0 mix
This is cool, would love to see this. PM me if anyone has a link please
Is it possible to mix Atmos without some expensive Dolby workstation? I bet you could do something really cool with a good Atmos mix to Fantasia, even if it’s not 100% true to the original Fantasound.
That would be interesting, another way that enthusiasts could mix their own versions. I don’t have Atmos, and I wonder how effective it will be with a stereo source but I think there is potential.
From reading http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/fantasound1.htm I think there where 3 independent sound channels.
Each channel was directed towards a speaker (L C R Ls Rs) according to a control track. Basically they did the mix on playback.The 3 original channels don’t correspond to any specific speakers. Channel 1 could be directed to L at one point, and later on to R. So you absolutely need the control track to recreate it.
In theory Dolby Surround can reproduce the original mix perfectly.
Modern signal processing gives you quite good separation, even with complex sounds.
Dolby Surround could work as an automated approach with it’s ‘steering’ to focus sound on whichever speaker has the loudest waveforms, which is possibly what was done in the 90s. I think a more live approach could be interesting.
While the technical approach is good for a background understanding, I feel what what he have left today, that a dolby-esque mix is about as good as we could get it. This would be going beyond simply creating a 5.1 mix which is what the DVD/BD did and was unsuccessful.
The gif link here shows how Vegas will pan the sound depending on my keyframes.
https://imgur.com/a/c8pKJv0
Yet another Fantasia related topic, however after assisting on the Fantasia LD restoration project and reading about what TonyWDA has been up to, I started thinking about Fantasound, and how currently the Dolby Surround matrixed version on the VHS/LD is the closest modern rendition that we have. From what I could piece together from various topics and writing histories regarding Fantasound is that it was essentially 3 channels with a control track, something like LEFT-CENTER-RIGHT (and likely SUR-LEFT and SUR-RIGHT (duplicate sounds of the front)).
Has anyone attempted taking the existing 2ch magnetic audio track and creating a new control track for it, similar to what Tony Porter did in 1990? The center channel (if a true center not just a mix of L+R) seems to have been lost, but could be “recreated” by an OOPS effect or something similar. And if you wanted an LFE track just do a 120hz cut on the L/R channels to create one
In Vegas Studio I can create a keyframed panning track, similar to the TOGAD which will send the sound to any speaker at any time. I have a link here to an .ac3 encoded file from Vegas Studio that is a rough example of how this could be done.
Therefore if this is possible the next step would to be, aside from listening to the 1990 audio over and over, is to find any other reviews,notes,or commentary about the original release and what people heard. For example, apparently the church bells at the end of the Bald Mountain came from the back of the theater, for example. Effects like these could easily be recreated. If there was an easier way to do it, I think it would open an fun world of different people creating their own Fantasound mixes for how they feel a certain piece should sound in surround.
https://mega.nz/file/CmoCwaYI#_bX3D23GU9nT7G9Vnt-Ac_OCNA_eAg3xecr5UEaXUAU
A simple panning example of the finale choir voices with the men on the left and women on the right then coming together again
https://mega.nz/file/viRAGB5Q#orQcNtFys3U3MkiwGzMs3lMnrsp-5RWj37zDoOBMrIo
The three french horns bit from Toccata, one of my favorite parts, the sound pans from L to C to R with each horn note
Would love for a link to this, PM me if you can!
I can donate too if you still need donations. Send me a PM
I also want to investigate why one of the scene with the blonde centorette seem doubles right after she is seen going down the steps. This is not a mistake on my part but how it is on the Blu-ray edition, which is supposed to contain the full scene albeit reframed to hide the offensive Sunflower character on the offending parts.
I was the technical assistant for Class316’s restoration. The reason you see the shot doubled and mirrored is because the scene where Sunflower is putting the flowers on the tail and the tails brushes them off was not edited but removed completely, leaving in a ~4 second gap in the segment that causes the entire audio to be off with the animation until the pink haired centaurette’s scene with Sunflower. I noticed something was wrong when I watched the 35mm segment and the audio was no longer lined up with the bluray after that removed scene.
It will be interesting to see an alternate version of the LD restoration done by yourself.
Also interested in this!
Tony I went back to listen and no, it is a different mix. I also recently got a copy of the Laserdisc rip of the film and checked too. Oddly enough the LD mono track is different to the VHS mono track.
Yes, all version have a second chorus after the first crescendo, but only the Mono VHS (and LP) mixes have the second chorus as loud as the first. All other versions including the mono Laserdisc, have the second repeat much quieter and distant than the first.
Speculation: The mono mix is the original recorded volume of the chorus, i.e. the final crescendo and fade out are all the same volume as sung. The stereo discrepancies might be a lost notation for maybe a rear pan or fade out instruction that ended up getting baked into the stereo mix as a reduced volume fade out.
Listen to all the versions here. They are labeled for each source. Compare the waveforms if you have to and see.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1THIyYqYxkg7cgFokxu6HU2kvYvluHI3l?usp=sharing
It may not matter much in the grand idea of things however it is just one of the many peculiarities surrounding Fantasia that keeps me interested.
Just wondering if there was an update on this? Still looking around to find the ripped audio tracks (both the stereo and mono) from the LD. In the meantime I have ripped both the mono and dolby surround tracks from my VHS copy but I though the LD versions would be a bit cleaner.
Short of having access to a magnetic stereo copy of the 1956, 1963, or 1969 releases, the stereophonic vinyl and reel tape releases are technically the closest you can get to the “original” Fantasound, but not without its own warts. The original stereo tracks had zero reverberations baked into the final mix-- dry as a bone all the way through, and that’s exactly how it sounds on the surviving recordings used in the mag stereo prints. So the reverberations weren’t “removed” in the 1990 reissue-- they were never there in the first place. So, while the dynamic effect of hearing the score play in a concert hall does make the commercial pressings a worthwhile listen (I can’t count how many times I’ve enjoyed them), it’s ultimately an artificial effect, and the release still has the issue of a faint phantom centre channel that needs to be adjusted for proper listening, as well as occasional hard pans that aren’t nearly are strong as they are on the mag tracks.
Wow thanks Tony, never realized the reverbs were artificially added! Honestly that might put an end to my hunt for the older releases as I though all this time the restorations pulled the reverbs as part of a blanket NR to the noisy tracks. Have to change my whole perspective on what I thought was the “real” Fantasia sound haha.
EDIT: After Tony mentioned about the mono being a basis for the 1990 release, I did a playback on my VHS and switched to the mono (non hi-fi stereo) track and listened to Ave Maria, and sure enough it’s the same mix as the mono LP I have, complete with special looped ending not in the the stereo mix (both the LP and VHS track) which extended the fade long enough to match the fade out of the video. Amazing! I really need to give this tape more credit than I do.
Thanks for the answer Tony. I picked a random Taylor snippet to start with (soundtrack) and found those discrepancies and stopped there, but interesting to know some parts do line up fine or (for Ave Maria) don’t at all.
Really excited for your project. Ever since I started reading about Fantasound 10 years ago and got deeper into the technical aspects of the film I’ve been intrigued by the amount of cuts/recuts/edits/audio changes this movie has been through (in a less similar vein, mystery projects like the SMiLE album from the Beach boys similarly pique my interests).
I’m sure others know this regarding the Sunflower edits, but in the VHS version (including soundtrack) about 3 seconds of audio have been edited out of the Pastoral (right as Baccus is teetering to fall from his chair). That scene is cropped close and panned to hide Sunflower but couldnt manage to hide her completely unrolling the red carpet (so the audio is shifted accordingly, then cut).The DVD/BD versions erase sunflower and keep the entire scene intact (and the 3 seconds of audio added back in)
Is the 1957 3-LP set the closest to Fantasound/original generation mix as we’ll get? Ive been buying various Lps over the years but haven’t noticed much differences across them:
Obviously the biggest change is the large presence of reverb on the LPs, akin to hearing it in a large performance hall which was removed on the restored 1990 and beyond releases. The 3-LP and single LP sound the same while the mono version (particularly Ave Maria) sounds similar with a special looped ending section only heard in Mono not stereo. Is there a high quality rip anywhere of the 1957 LP? I’ve made my own but I’ve been spending hours removing clicks and pops. Also the whole album is mixed so low that I find myself competing with the turntable rumble on quiet sections
EDIT: Seems someone has already shed a light on this 😃 https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Fantasia-35mm-preservation-opportunity-unfinished-project-WIP/id/16608/page/3#1142402
Thought this might be a good thread to pose this question, since I’m with so many Fantasia experts:
I went back and took a look at the 1990 release again, pulled the Deems taylor audio, and found that even on the re-recorded parts, the dialogue still does not match. Was the interstitial 1947/1990 Taylor audio a different take? The pauses in between phrases and even certain conjunctions are missing in the original Taylor audio recording vs the restored film segments.
Example:
(1990/1947 original Deems Taylor audio introducing the soundtrack)
“…but when I did [pause], I realized…”
(Burtons recorded dialog introducing the Soundtrack)
“…but when I did, I suddenly realized…”
The restored footage shows that Taylor mouthed “suddenly” as well as the script used as the basis for Burton’s audio indicated this was the correct line of dialogue from the beginning so why is the original Taylor audio so off? Surely an editor didnt go in and remove individual words from dialog to shave off 0.5s
Hey everyone, I saw earlier in this thread about a 1988 Disney Channel airing. I have a copy of BLT taped on to VHS (date unknown to me) that I’ve digitized. It still has the original star pasties during the scene with the TV. Does this mean its from that airing or were there other releases that didnt edit that to a bra?