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Shopping Maul

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12-Oct-2013
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18-Apr-2019
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269

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Post
#1278195
Topic
The original Marvel Star Wars series
Time

Inspired by a wonderful exchange I had with Silverwook a while back (thanks Silver!) I finally tracked down a copy of Marvel’s paperback edition of the TESB adaptation. I had it as a kid back in '81 or so, and had acquired it primarily for the famous ‘original Yoda’ that had been based on a Ralph McQuarrie painting and been Marvel’s only visual reference at the time (and obviously amended for later editions). Of course the book was lost to me over time, so it was super cool to have it again some 38 years later!

The interesting thing while reading (or rereading) this amazing little artifact was just how acutely those feelings came back to me - feelings of a time that predates my having a VHS of TESB where I could memorise every piece of dialogue, a time when the burning questions about Vader and ‘the other’ had not been answered, a time when this comic book was pretty much my only version of the film. I guess it’s like getting your favourite old Led Zeppelin album on vinyl again - no matter how many times you’ve played the CD (or Spotify!) there’s something about experiencing its original format that brings back those feelings in such a vivid way.

I haven’t read this adaptation in quite a while (I do have the regular 6-issue version packed away in a box somewhere) so it is/was quite a trip reliving the different dialogue, the inclusion of such extras as the Wampa subplot, Luke’s lightsaber training with (purple) Yoda, the greater emphasis on the love triangle etc etc. One cool little detail I had completely forgotten was Luke thinking he’d spotted a beacon as he began his descent into the Dagobah swamp - indeed a neat way of explaining how he managed to land in just the right vicinity for Yoda’s entrance!

It also brought back memories of the many times I would do side-by-side comparisons of the Williamson/Garzon artwork with photo stills from the movie (usually TESB bubble-gum cards). Some panels were also clearly derived from McQuarrie paintings, and comparing the artworks was endlessly fascinating to me.

So anyhow, I just thought I’d share this little nostalgic moment with you guys while the tingle was still fresh, and again - thanks to Silverwook for lighting the way.

May the Force…etc

Post
#1278168
Topic
George Lucas: Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

Great thread - thanks! It’s both entertaining and extremely frustrating at the same time. It’s interesting to note (in one of the Kurtz links you provide) that the whole ‘Joseph Campbell’ connection has supposedly been blown out of proportion by GL as well.

It saddens me to say that I work with a few young SW fans that really don’t care that there was ever an ‘unaltered’ version of the films. In this regard Lucas seems to have succeeded with his revisionism. Still, hopefully threads like this will help to keep the flame alive. Thanks again!

Post
#1278140
Topic
Can't be Bothered: justifying Rey's power vs Luke's
Time

I honestly believe that JJ and co. really didn’t think about this stuff. This is true, to an extent, of Lucas as well. George would just throw stuff in there and hope we didn’t notice the contradictions. With the new films it seems like the writers are going “hey, such and such sounds cool, let’s do that” without thinking about the lore or how it might look in context. Rey’s big victory at the end of TFA (when she kicked Kylo’s butt) was largely because someone told JJ that she needed a ‘big moment’. Okay, one ‘big moment’ coming up…

My preferred interpretation of the Force is the one presented in Star Wars and Empire - it’s an energy field that can be tapped into with serious discipline and training. That’s it.

Post
#1277517
Topic
Your thoughts on the Episode IX title - <strong>'The Rise Of Skywalker'</strong> - a NON-SPOILER thread
Time

Okay, here’s my theory. There’s a big showdown in the guts of the Death Star, all the Force Ghosts are present, everyone’s about to be blown up or something, and then Kylo has a big change of heart and self-sacrifices so that his beloved Rey (and co.) can escape. As he does so Palpasnoke is screaming “no, you are Master of the Knights of Ren!” and Kylo - just a Leia’s theme/Force theme mash-up swells - says “I am a Skywalker, like my mother before me!” before going kaboom.

Post
#1277516
Topic
Your thoughts on the Episode IX title - <strong>'The Rise Of Skywalker'</strong> - a NON-SPOILER thread
Time

RogueLeader said:

Also, HelloGreedo posted a video regarding his interpretation of the title, and I think I would like it if some version of this turned to be true as well. These films are fundamentally about family, and I think this trilogy has emphasized how family is more than blood, so I could see ‘Skywalker’ becoming the mantle of that idea.
https://youtu.be/lPCuDbkstuY

“I’m Skywalker and so is my wife…”

(with all due credit to Monty Python…)

Post
#1277485
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

bromeo said:

If TROS is truly amazing, could The Last Jedi become sort of Attack of the Clones for binge-watching? I wonder if you can enjoy 4, 5, 3, 6, 7, 9 without losing too much of the story? Probably a futile thought because we have amazing edits already available which make 8 quite enjoyable.

Ah, a Machete Order in the making! If TROS is good, I think that’s probably what will happen. As ‘necessary’ as Luke’s death and Kylo’s mask issues are, I think many fans will overlook this and just do eps 7 and 9 a la carte.

Post
#1277432
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I’m not offended by the potential of a Palpatine return (in whatever form) at all. If anything, it helps me to see ROTJ as ‘a’ victory rather than ‘the’ victory when viewing the ST, because the ‘Empire vs Rebels’ reset is so stark. ROTJ still stands - the Death Star was destroyed, the Empire crippled (if not eliminated), Vader got his redemption, Luke got his knighthood - so for me a downsizing of ROTJ’s overall significance/finality is not so bad. Since TFA I’ve kind of seen the ST as a nod to the ROTJ that could have been - disillusioned Luke wandering off into the sunset, Leia leading the remains of her people, Han sacrificing himself etc etc.

What saddens me is that I felt nothing on my initial viewing of the new teaser. Every other teaser/trailer (except for RO and SOLO) has hooked me - irrespective of the consequent movies. This time I was like “eh, whatever”. My ‘canon brain’ has switched off in terms of viewing the ST as legitimate Star Wars, and that’s because there are no intriguing threads left by TLJ in terms of what’s to come. Still, the resulting conversations here and elsewhere have caused my anticipation to rise somewhat. The apathy rises, and the anticipation to meet it…

Post
#1275018
Topic
Rogue One * <em>Spoilers</em> * Thread
Time

Tobar said:

Shopping Maul said:

Does it actually say that about the reactor in RO (genuine question, I’ve only seen the film once)?

“The reactor module, that’s the key…any pressurized explosion to the reactor module will set off a chain reaction that will destroy the entire station.”

Aren’t volatile reactors all the rage throughout the saga? Anakin blows up a Trade Federation ship by accidentally hitting the reactor with big torpedoes. Death Star II is all about hitting the reactor. The Super-Star Destroyer cops it in the ol’ reactor too!

Take it up with Star Wars (1977):
“The shaft leads directly to the reactor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should destroy the station.” - General Dodonna, Star Wars

Okay, so did the DS reactor in ROTJ have the same implanted flaw? What about the reactor on the Trade Federation ship? The saga clearly shows us that hitting the reactors can blow these things up. All three films demonstrate, as you quoted, that a hit to the reactor should do the trick.

So we’re left with two choices here. Galen Erso made the reactor extra explodey and hoped that somehow the rebels would get a crack at it. Or he designed the exhaust port and ‘cleverly’ made it nigh impossible to get a torpedo into.

Or the third choice - it all went down like the original movie said it did and the rebels simply exercised great ingenuity borne of desperation and, thanks to Luke Skywalker, achieved the nigh impossible.

Look, I get it. Many fans didn’t think the initial Death Star takedown was plausible, and RO supposedly answers that age-old question.

Uh…what? “Many fans”? Gonna need to see some examples of that as I’ve never heard that brought up as an issue. Let alone enough to make it an “age-old question.”

Google ‘Rogue One Death Star reactor flaw’ and you’ll see articles and blogs galore about this issue bothering fans over the years. I myself was unaware of this until RO came out and people started going on about this alleged problem. Like i said it never bothered me.

Shopping Maul said:

I’m probably gonna get slapped here, but I despise this film. Talk about Special editions - this film is ‘Han Shot First’ on steroids. Placing the Tantive at the battle itself and having Vader - who had just seen the rebels passing the plans through a doorway - suddenly get his facts wrong (“several transmissions were beamed to this ship…”),

Several transmissions were beamed to the ship that the Tantive was docked inside of:

Yes, not the Tantive itself. The dialogue makes no sense.

The data from the drive that Erso took was uploaded in four simultaneous transmissions.
The dialog from the film confirms this, “Admiral, receiving transmissions from Scarif!”
As for Vader’s dialog, humdinger has already addressed how Vader isn’t shown to know that a Rebel is trying to get the plans onboard the Tantive. At that time all Vader is concerned with is stopping anyone from escaping. Where the plans are is a secondary concern to stopping the Tantive from launching.

Sorry, I’m confused here. So Vader didn’t know the plans were being handed through the door and was only preventing any escapes. So why pursue the Tantive at all? It only makes sense to pursue Leia if he thinks the plans are aboard - and he’s only going to know this by virtue of having seen the plans being handed through the doorway - which means he knows they weren’t transmitted - which means the dialogue in ANH makes no sense…

followed by an interrogation with Leia that doesn’t remotely reflect what Vader has supposedly just witnessed

They both know she’s been caught red handed but that doesn’t mean she has to capitulate and admit to everything or anything. In that situation all she can do is deny, deny, deny and hope that Artoo can escape with the plans. And Vader knows she’s lying and openly calls her out on it, “You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor!”

The whole point in ANH is that Vader’s holding her on suspicion alone - hence “holding her is dangerous, if word gets out etc etc”. Vader says “I have traced the rebel spies to her…”. Why not just say “she was present at the battle of Scariff, resisted arrest, and is now a war criminal”? And why not just say this to Leia, rather than some song and dance about supposed diplomatic missions to Alderaan?

…and all so we can see Vader exhibit a particular badassery that he fails to wield ten minutes later in 1977?!?

As has already been pointed out, Vader was in a rush to stop the Tantive from launching before. By the time he’s caught up with them, they’re trapped with nowhere left to go. He doesn’t need to charge in. Why take the brunt of an attack when you have lackeys to do that for you?

Fair enough, if that works for you (not being sarcastic here).

Rogue One is by no means a perfect film but I would say it does an excellent job of capturing the feel of the OT era and of delivering on its original mandate which was to bring these opening paragraphs to life:

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire’s
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

It does capture the look of the OT. I was amazed at the accuracy in depicting the tech and what-not in a way that links to ANH (rather than having TESB-style Star Destroyers circling the Death Star for example), but for me the movie overreaches by meddling with ANH plot points and upstaging what should (IMO) remain as Vader’s first entrance in ep 4.

Star Wars post-1980 is absolutely built on retcons - some work and some don’t. I just wish more care was taken with the writing. For example Lucas could simply have written the timeline so that Owen and Beru were actually the correct age, instead of having fans awkwardly postulate that they were ‘aged rapidly by the twin suns’. Or he could have had Padme survive for a few years (as originally planned) so that Leia could legitimately remember her (as opposed to the clumsy “uh, she was remembering through the Force but baby Luke couldn’t…”). Don’t get me started on “Leia, Leia’s my sister…” or Threepio having had a prior farming apprenticeship with Owen Lars…

Rogue One plays the same game for me. The plans weren’t beamed to the ship but Vader didn’t know that and Leia was at the battle but neither of them are admitting it and the Death star flaw was deliberate but not too deliberate etc etc. Why not just write a cool story about the acquisition of the plans, have them beamed to Leia, and leave ANH alone?

Post
#1274946
Topic
Rogue One * <em>Spoilers</em> * Thread
Time

Does it actually say that about the reactor in RO (genuine question, I’ve only seen the film once)?

Aren’t volatile reactors all the rage throughout the saga? Anakin blows up a Trade Federation ship by accidentally hitting the reactor with big torpedoes. Death Star II is all about hitting the reactor. The Super-Star Destroyer cops it in the ol’ reactor too!

Look, I get it. Many fans didn’t think the initial Death Star takedown was plausible, and RO supposedly answers that age-old question. But I never had a problem with the exhaust port. It was an audacious plan on behalf of the rebels that actually turned out to be a failure (see Red Leader, his targeting computer, and a conga-line of dead guys that didn’t even make it that far). Luke Skywalker was a complete and utter wild card. It makes infinitely less sense to me that a saboteur planted a weakness that required extremely creative analysis (assuming all the construction crews and technicians and overseers never noticed the flaw), was more or less impossible to exploit, and ultimately relied on the Force re-emerging as an option.

Post
#1274727
Topic
Rogue One * <em>Spoilers</em> * Thread
Time

MalàStrana said:

The issue is not about being logical or not, the real trick is: this piece of information of the DS being sabotaged by its own engineer is a rationalization of something magical/Force related in ANH, and it was totally unecessary. That’s why I compare that to the midichlorians: going for magic to something… logical, mathematical, biological, rational… it goes 100% against the spirit of the OT and particularly of ANH.

The fact dialogues in ANH have now a weird inconsistency with R1 ret-con is another issue, but not the worst.

(and at least PT inconsistencies are set some 20 years before ANH, not 5 minutes prior to it 😕)

Agreed. Perhaps Han’s line could be retconned to say “great shot kid, but someone clearly set you up for it” followed by Obi Wan’s voiceover saying “remember…the Force is just a factor…among many…”.

Post
#1274654
Topic
Rogue One * <em>Spoilers</em> * Thread
Time

oojason said:

Shopping Maul said:

Not to state the obvious on a site dedicated to this one truth but, as we’ve been stridently pointing out to Lucas for decades now, Star Wars '77 was fine as it was.

Shopping Maul said:

What’s interesting to me is that RO gets such a great rap on a site dedicated to preserving the unaltered OT.

Shopping Maul said:

I’m just amazed that other fans don’t see this as basically a defacto Special Edition change.

Just a couple of points for clarity…

For someone who has been on this site for over 5 years… you haven’t noticed that your fellow members on here may also like or enjoy Star Wars content other than the Original Trilogy too? That there are many members with positive views and respect or appreciation for many of the differing Star Wars releases?

And that having a positive opinion of the non-OT releases on here is perfectly okay.

You can indeed prefer to watch the Prequel Trilogy, or Holiday Special, or one of the animated tv series, or read the EU books etc over the Original Trilogy (and also talk about them on here)… yet still also want the OOT released.

And you certainly don’t have to despise other non-OT content, find certain scenes in them the worst crime, or be just amazed that others here see things differently than you do.
 

I think you’ve misread my tone here - but I probably haven’t expressed myself very well! I’m not saying my take on RO is the ‘right’ one, or that to enjoy RO is to betray the manifesto of this site. Like I said to Silverwook, I just saw the subject at the top of the pile and felt compelled to give my two cents worth after all this time. I was posting from the perspective of being among friends in an ‘around the water cooler’ type way rather than seeking to put anyone off side. I genuinely apologise if I came off that way.

Post
#1274574
Topic
Rogue One * <em>Spoilers</em> * Thread
Time

SilverWook said:

Why flog a dead Taun Taun at this point?

Is that directed at me Silver? If so, I haven’t gone through the whole thread so I’m not deliberately fanning old flames. I just saw the topic at the top of the pile and felt it was time to scratch this particular itch of mine (I haven’t commented on RO on this or any site ever).

What’s interesting to me is that RO gets such a great rap on a site dedicated to preserving the unaltered OT. I’m not saying that’s objectively wrong, I’m just amazed that other fans don’t see this as basically a defacto Special Edition change. There’s a wonderful purity to the original film which the Special Editions obviously violated. I just feel RO is an extension of that.

Post
#1274568
Topic
Rogue One * <em>Spoilers</em> * Thread
Time

I’m probably gonna get slapped here, but I despise this film. Talk about Special editions - this film is ‘Han Shot First’ on steroids. Placing the Tantive at the battle itself and having Vader - who had just seen the rebels passing the plans through a doorway - suddenly get his facts wrong (“several transmissions were beamed to this ship…”), followed by an interrogation with Leia that doesn’t remotely reflect what Vader has supposedly just witnessed (perhaps Disney could do a Lucas and replace Vader’s lines with “Princess, I just saw you at the battle receiving the plans firsthand for Sith’s sake!”)…and all so we can see Vader exhibit a particular badassery that he fails to wield ten minutes later in 1977?!?

But the worst crime (no, it isn’t the appearance and repeated dialogue of the cantina aliens from ANH) is the Death Star exhaust port fiasco. The whole point of the exercise was that the shot was basically impossible. It was a desperate plan. That’s why every rebel in the briefing room was shifting nervously in their seats. That’s why Wedge Mk 1 said “that’s impossible, even for a computer”. That’s why the first attempt failed despite said computer. That’s why General Dodonna didn’t say “good news guys, a weakness was planted in the station for our benefit!”. That’s why it took Luke trusting in the Force to make this seemingly impossible shot work. If a dude was really going to plant a weakness in the DS, would he make it so effing difficult that only a budding space wizard could pull it off?

The Death Star wasn’t blown up because of insider sabotage. It was destroyed because Imperial hubris failed to account for rebel ingenuity and tenacity (hence the argument between Taggi and Motti in ANH), not to mention the wild card that was Luke Skywalker. Why mess with this?

Not to state the obvious on a site dedicated to this one truth but, as we’ve been stridently pointing out to Lucas for decades now, Star Wars '77 was fine as it was.

Post
#1273524
Topic
Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

The thing is these arcs could have been achieved without diminishing the characters. For instance Han could have been using his old skills/contacts to recruit potential resistance allies. That way TFA could still have him separated from Leia and acting somewhat like the Solo of old, but with noble purpose.

Similarly Luke could have inadvertently ‘created’ Kylo Ren through the training process but, instead of giving up in despair, could have realised that the old ways were no longer adequate. His entire ‘hobo’ routine with Rey could have been a ruse - something like Yoda’s initial test/demeanour in TESB - that was designed to push Rey into seeking her own destiny rather than being trained in the traditional way. The ‘subversion’ could’ve been at the finale when Rey (and the audience) realises that Luke was guiding her all along. That way we get a subversive hobo-Luke without sacrificing his arc as completed in ROTJ. Plus it would explain why there was a map…

Oh, and Leia’s ‘Jedi moment’ should’ve been lifting those rocks for Rey and demonstrating that Rey still has much to learn.

Post
#1272073
Topic
Episode IX: The Rise Of Skywalker - Discussion * <strong><em>SPOILER THREAD</em></strong> *
Time

I wish Force Ghosts had never been ‘explained’ (ie “an old friend has come back from the netherworld…etc etc”). That way it would all be ambiguous and we could see it however we wish.

BTW back in '83 I thought Anakin was appearing to Luke in Tatooine farmer apparel (it never occurred to me that Lucas intended Obi Wan’s desert wear to be actual Jedi garb!) - a kind of symbolic return to his pre-Darkside humble beginnings rather than a demonstration of Jedi enlightenment.

Post
#1271485
Topic
THE FORCE AWAKENS (Episode VII) Discussion *SPOILER THREAD* See OP For Trailer/Teaser Links--Trailer is out!
Time

Hal 9000 said:

This is another benefit to the Restructured idea.

The base simply drains “the Sun” and fires upon targets. No awkward questions about it’s mobility are raised.

It seems like the filmmakers knew SKB was a bad idea but they decided to do it anyway, moving as quickly through it as possible.

But it would have to be mobile to drain another sun. That’s what’s so ludicrous. Let’s apply SK to ep 4 and say it was about to destroy Alderaan at Tarkin’s behest. Would Motti (or whoever) have to go through a process to choose a worthy system to destroy in order to charge up and then destroy Alderaan? In other words the Empire/FO is committed to destroying two systems every time. “Let’s destroy Alderaan”. “Okay, well we need to find an appropriate sun to drain - any other systems in need of punishing since we’re stuck with a two-for-one deal?”

Post
#1271482
Topic
THE FORCE AWAKENS (Episode VII) Discussion *SPOILER THREAD* See OP For Trailer/Teaser Links--Trailer is out!
Time

SilverWook said:

Shopping Maul said:

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

I thought the IMDB forums were deleted after they closed them?

No, it was in the review section, but the guy decided to forgo a full review and just do a post about SK.

Post
#1271371
Topic
THE FORCE AWAKENS (Episode VII) Discussion *SPOILER THREAD* See OP For Trailer/Teaser Links--Trailer is out!
Time

I saw a post on imdb that really cracked me up. The poster (whose handle is ‘bobsutherby’) points out that by draining the sun, the SK Base consequently kills every planet in that system anyway. So all the base needs to do is drain stars!

Which begs the question (this is me now) - how does the FO choose which system it will destroy in order to power up to destroy another? Does it wait until at least 2 systems are in transgression, or does it have to choose stars with uninhabited or no planets?

Post
#1271081
Topic
Proof of Lucas’ revisionism in Rinzler’s making-of book?
Time

rodneyfaile said:

At this point, I have to adopt the opinion that Lucas had been overwhelmingly successful in rewriting history. The vast majority of the public have no idea multiple versions of Star Wars even exist. Most believe Lucas wrote every single word and designed every ship and costume, personally developed new technology to create the special effects, and had the entire intact vision all in his head in advance. I’m wondering how long before Lucas gets credit for humming the theme to John Williams for him to write.

The sad part is, Lucas does deserve so much admiration for creating this universe and not giving up as he fought to get it made. Star Wars is an amazing piece of imagination. Sharing the creative process with those under his leadership in no way diminishes his achievement. There is more than enough to go around. I just hate that some have had their work erased by the special editions.

So in my opinion, Lucas has won. Only Disney/Lucasfilm can do anything about it now. They could release the unaltered Original Trilogy in a new definitive set and produce their own new documentary. I’d go to the theater just to watch a new Star War documentary. Sadly, I do not think anyone is interested.

Maybe what we really need is a fan made documentary to go along with the fan made despecialized versions. I’d donate to a crowd funding for such a documentary.

You’re right - it seems Lucas has succeeded in rewriting history. I work with a lot of people in their 20s and early 30s, and they enjoy Star Wars to varying degrees. When I mention the ‘unaltered versions’ and bring them up to speed on how the SE came about, they’re either unaware of this notion or don’t really care anyway.

Of course as an OT fan from back in the day I’m less than thrilled about this (hence my being on this site) - but I didn’t realise just how angry I was about it until I saw the 40th anniversary celebrations on Youtube and watched Lucas banging on about mythological motifs and the usual hoo-haa to Warwick Davis - while no-one pulled him up on the fact that the very film they were celebrating no longer f##king exists! It’s absurd. Celebrate in 2037 or whatever year the SE technically reaches 40 if that’s how it is to be.

I’ve mentioned this in other posts but as I watched this clip, the next Youtube suggestion was a small 40th anniversary podcast with Gary Kurtz that actually celebrated and discussed the film in question. In fact I believe one of my first posts here was in response to that interview, and I semi-seriously suggested that a Gary Kurtz commentary track for Despecialized would be awesome. I stand by that assertion. RIP Gary.

Post
#1270782
Topic
Proof of Lucas’ revisionism in Rinzler’s making-of book?
Time

I see Star Wars in its prime as being like a rock band. Take Keith out of the Stones, Joe Perry out of Aerosmith, Bruce Dickinson out of Iron Maiden, Bon Scott out of ACDC etc etc and it’s easy to see that a band (or film) is so much more than one person - regardless of whether they’re the main founder or creative nucleus. ROTJ is, to me, like the third album of band where the lead guitarist and drummer have quit (or been fired) and the record company has demanded more hits and insisted on a pop-producer and more synthesisers.

The ST is a reunion tour with a couple of the original members and all-new songs co-written by Mark Ronson to make sure they sound like the hits of yesteryear.