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ShamanWhill

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22-Sep-2020
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Post
#1328527
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

OutboundFlight said:

This is a very good base plan. At this point, I don’t think there is much more we can do without creating our own story out of things we would like to see.

Right. Episode VII is pretty mapped out. Most quotes about the Sequel Trilogy are about Episode VII. We know how we meet Han, we know how we find Luke. Leia is a Senator and a member of a political party known as the Populists. Han and Leia are separate, but they come back together over the course of the film. Han does NOT die, at least not in Episode VII. Never a mention of Lando.

OutboundFlight said:

In that vein, I will make a few suggestions. Trying to keep in the Lucas Lore but all my ideas are really fanfiction at this point.

– Darth Talon would make for an interesting antagonist, but I don’t think she should live past Episode 8. Perhaps Jedi Killer kills her in an act similar to Snoke’s death in TLJ. If the Dark Whill / Plaguies remains the big bad it won’t be as crazy as the DT… it would be more Jedi Killer promoting himself to directly serving the Dark Whill.

There’s actually concept art of her seducing the Jedi Killer and then leaving him murdered. I think it would make for a interesting twist in Episode IX. My idea is this: in order to destroy the Evil Whill, Luke must become one with the Force and confront him, but of course Luke must die in order to do this. So he surrenders to the Jedi Killer, leading to his death. Once Luke is dead, Talon then murders the Jedi Killer, revealing that she was using him the entire time. Then Anakin and Luke face off against Plagueis, while Leia and Kira fight Talon; both a Physical Battle and a Meta-Physical battle.

OutboundFlight said:

– If we go the Sam Solo route, I’d prefer to make it so that Sam thinks he doesn’t have the force because he doesn’t have a natural affinity to it like Kira. But perhaps in the 9th episode, he realizes he had it all along, he just needed to believe he had it in the first place.

You’re right. Based on Midi-Chlorian biology, it wouldn’t make sense for Sam to have 0 Force powers. We can make it so either he’s not interested in the Force, of that by the time he was ready to learn, Luke had already been betrayed by the Jedi Killer.

OutboundFlight said:

– Jedi Killer could work as Luke’s very first apprentice, sorta like Kyp Durron in the EU. Luke sees on him as living proof of his early failures, from before his academy was properly established.

I don’t think it would really matter. I imagine Episode VII opens up with the attack on Luke’s temple. I think we could throw in a line like “he was Luke’s brightest student”, but that would be all. Luke was naïve and didn’t believe he would turn to the Dark Side because of the prophecy Anakin fulfilled; he lowered his guard.

OutboundFlight said:

– Why not make Kira’s mother a mystery? Luke never tells her who her mother is, and she spends a while wondering who it might be. It could another Jedi (inspired by Mara Jade) in hiding that returns by Episode 9.

I agree it would make the story much more interesting. She’s described as a loner, so maybe that was the case. I don’t know if making her the daughter of another Jedi would work. Luke was supposed to be the last, and he was described as the last in George’s outlines. If she is a loner/orphan, then she would have to be Luke’s child. But that raises many questions; Why was she hidden? How come Luke doesn’t know? I can understand if she was hidden because of Luke’s betrayal, then that would mean she was a baby, so almost 2 decades have gone by of Luke in hiding? I don’t know if that’s a right move to make.

Post
#1328350
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

OutboundFlight said:
Having reread a few sites discussing what little we know of Lucas’s ideas, I think it’s safe to say the Whills would serve as the main protagonists and antagonists. Based off the only Lucas canon – the OT, the PT, and TCW – the force is best understood as divided into the light and dark sides. The Jedi were not perfect but there is nothing from Lucas that suggests they need widespread reform.

I saw this concept art picture of Darth Talon, with a shadowy figure hovering behind her (https://miro.medium.com/max/2063/1*-ez8L1awc_mE6G4kac6Gwg.jpeg). The caption by the concept artist described the shadowy figure behind her as the puppeteer manipulating her. I think it would be interesting if we made this an Evil Whill. Maybe Darth Plagueis found a way to secretly preserve his own consciousness after death through the Midi-Chlorians as the Jedi had. He searched and found a Force Sensitive Twi-lek with attractive features and manipulated her to seduce the Jedi Killer and turn him against Luke.

We can drop the Plagueis idea if you’d like, but I think we’d still need to explain where this Evil Whill came from.

OutboundFlight said:
So I think we would learn that there is a Dark Whill somewhere that has brought evil into the galaxy, cheesy as it may be, and this being was what corrupted Sidious in the first place. Keeping in mind this would remain a Skywalker / Solo drama, I think Ben Solo may be the Dark Whill’s “next target” and start corrupting him to restart the Sith, and it will be up to Luke’s daughter to redeem her cousin and break the cycle.

Ben Solo would be Sam Solo. In George’s trilogy, he wasn’t Force sensitive. However, the Jedi Killer left a real impact on Luke, so I’m toying with the idea of him being Luke’s son.

I don’t know if Luke should have an heir though. You’d need to explain where his wife is, and if he changed that rule in the Jedi Order, and as you said there’s no evidence that George wanted the Jedi way to be changed. If Kira was Luke’s daughter, than we would have to go down the route that Luke doesn’t know and she was hidden as a child by her Mother who was in trouble and is now deceased.

Post
#1328349
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

DominicCobb said:

When was it ever confirmed that Lucas’s treatment had Kira/Rey as a Skywalker? I don’t think I’ve seen that.

You’re right. They never truly confirmed if they were Skywalkers, but she’s the main character and George said the Sequels are about Darth Vader’s grandchildren.

DominicCobb said:

JJ and Rian are artists, they have authority over their stories. Your thread is about George’s “Original” ST, which is fair. But all you’re doing is fan fiction. That’s what I’m trying to say.

Sure, they have authority over their stories. But they had to trample the original artist’s stories to write their own, so I don’t think they deserve the same level of respect.

I know this is fan fiction, but that’s not a bad thing. You don’t need to put me in my place. I’m already aware of it.

Post
#1328166
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

DominicCobb said:

Yes, there is a “proper canon.” It includes the films made by Disney. Lucas sold the rights to the series to them, and artists continued the story, whether you personally like it or not.

Never really stated I did or didn’t.

DominicCobb said:

Yours is the fan fiction. That’s just a fact. George had a treatment, sure. But have you seen it? No. Ardnt starting working off the treatment, and thus TFA (and TLJ) feature elements of it. So the sequel trilogy as is is more imbued with George’s actual ideas than yours ever could be, just as a point of fact (not to mention JJ and Rian meeting with Lucas).

I don’t think TLJ does feature elements from George’s stories. I had always heard that Rian had made that stuff from scratch. But I’m afraid I have to disagree with you: our Sequel Trilogy will have numerous things the Disney Trilogy did not include. For starters, our main character is the Granddaughter of Darth Vader, not Palpatine. Pretty big difference.

I have to agree with StarkillerAG; you’re coming off a little aggressive. I certainly don’t mean to start an argument, so I hope our disagreement ends here.

DominicCobb said:

Putting aside the “Only Holy Lucas knows the True Canon” silliness, the idea that some rando fan has a better idea of Lucas’s true wishes is ridiculous. That’s all I’m saying.

Dude… you’re kinda being a bully right now. That’s my view on the matter. I think absolute authority belongs to the artist.

Post
#1328121
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

RogueLeader said:

I think calling it fully developed is a bit of an overstatement.

I just disagree. If you have a script, you have a finished story.

RogueLeader said:
George definitely had an outline, but Michael Arndt left the project because he needed more time to finish the actual script, which Iger wouldn’t give him.

I had heard that he was fired.

RogueLeader said:
From what I understand, it was during this process that Arndt was trying to figure out how to fit Luke into the story without overshadowing the new characters, which was when they came up with the idea of making him the thing the heroes are actually searching for.

Well, they got rid of him, then JJ and Kasdan came up with the idea not to include him in the movie basically.

RogueLeader said:

The development process was exactly that, a development. If you’re trying to go off of what we know about George’s original treatments (and treatment are basically just summaries of a story that can fit onto a few pages, if not a single page), that’s one thing. But ideas clearly changed as development continued, and I doubt anything was really fully developed for George’s original ideas.

A story treatment is still a story treatment. That’s fleshed out. And there was a script by Arndt. Big enough to inspire JJ and Kasdan and receive a writing credit. They even had story art commissioned from it, illustrating scenes we never saw. I find that to be fleshed out enough. And we should stand up for George, so let’s tell the real truth: Ideas didn’t just change in that story development, ideas were thrown out. Big difference.

RogueLeader said:

I really think we need to map out what exactly we know from the development process. I might do that and post it later.

Looking forward to it!

Post
#1328119
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

yotsuya said:

For instance, you cannot have a good force user who solely uses the dark side. They are not balanced and are going to succumb to the temptations. But you can have a good force user who can tap into the dark side as needed to make use of that power in the service of good.

I disagree. You can’t tap into it at all. Because you’ll realize how powerful the Dark Side is. It’s seductive in it’s ways. George says it leads to greater pleasure than joy. The difference between the two being that pleasure is more short termed. If you tap into it, you will eventually fall under it’s spell.

Remember that what Luke did in Episode VI was by accident. He didn’t mean to use his rage to overpower Vader, but once he realized he had, he stopped fighting. But we will bring this up in the Sequel Trilogy. Luke will probably contemplate why he didn’t use rage to protect his students against the Jedi Killer. He will war with himself. Because you are right, you can get things done through the Dark Side, but you shouldn’t. Luke had a taste of it before, so he’ll want it again.

yotsuya said:

So I don’t see the Jedi we have seen as balanced. We may see something different a few hundred years earlier, but I think the problems with the Jedi go back to the split with the Sith (provided that piece of the EU stays accurate). It would be a natural turn of events for the Jedi to start teaching complete avoidance of anything pertaining to the dark side.

I agree, and I see where you’re coming from. I wish we could find a way to work this into the trilogy, but I don’t see how we could. It goes too far back, far beyond what the audience has seen.

yotsuya said:

So I think the pure force is far more neutral and balanced that what we see in the Jedi. The Bendu is the best example of a being that is balanced in the force. I see the father/daughter/son trio as representing the force, the Jedi, and the Sith with the father again being a being balanced in the force. I see those three as part of Lucas’s Whills concept. The balanced, the light, and the dark. I personally would watch those episodes and use them as inspiration. Lucas had many ideas that never saw the screen and they might be Filoni’s interpretation of something Lucas shared with him. I don’t think he would have gone there without consulting George about it. So I think George’s ideas are in those characters. I wouldn’t say they are Whills, but they are related to them in some way. The Bendu might be as well. The whills should be something higher like those beings. They should be less affected by human sensibilities. They should reflect balance and nature rather than human passions.

I looove that you mention Bendu. You know your lore well. I have toyed with the idea that Luke will renounce Jedi Knighthood to create a new order; Jedi-Bendu.

Thank you for the ideas for the Whills. Very constructive, and I’ve definitely watched the Mortis episodes for inspiration!

Post
#1328111
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

NFBisms said:

I mean, unless we’re discussing what about them that it isn’t. Like, I think, TROS is way way off, but TFA is at least vague, and TLJ is slavish in its adherence to George Lucas’s Force and Jedi. So when I bring up the Disney films I’m not actually discussing from a perspective of them as canon, but just parsing out what about them fit and what would have been done about those ideas, if at all, in the hypothetical universe where Lucas got to make his sequels. I think context for how they’re referenced in this thread matters, if you want to police it that badly. I don’t think I’ve used them as proof of a point, just a jumping off point for the discussion on what Lucas would mean with the concept of “balance.”

Sorry for the confusion NFBisms. I was not actually thinking of you when I had made that comment earlier. I hope you don’t take offense, as I did leave those accused nameless. I don’t mean to police this thread, so much as I want us to “stay on target”.

I find your perception that TLJ is slavish in it’s adherence to George’s perception of the Force, quizzical. I personally don’t think George would approve of the ability to project oneself through the Force to another star system. The film also misunderstood George’s definition of balance in the Force.

Post
#1328110
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

DominicCobb said:

Even if it was poorly conveyed, George’s intention was to critique the Jedi way. The Jedi rip a child away from his mother, and it leads him to the dark side. That’s the fault of the Jedi. In the end, when Vader is redeemed and the Sith destroyed, it is because he loved his son. The Jedi were wrong, and Luke was right. That is the point Lucas was trying to make, and the sequel trilogy isn’t doing anything but continuing his ideas in that regard.

I don’t know if we can say for sure that it was in fact George’s intention to critique the Jedi. But I will say that is an interesting ideas we will consider! You are correct in pointing out that Luke only won because he didn’t listen to his Jedi masters. The idea of reforming the Jedi Order will be imbued in him.

DominicCobb said:

There is no “proper canon.” That’s bullshit. George was constantly changing his mind. He had approximately 500 different ideas for the sequel trilogy over the years that were probably incredibly contradictory (as the PT often was to the OT).

Please refrain from becoming so meta that you end up saying things that make no sense. There is a proper canon. We have an artist and his creation. Anything he wants to do or approves of is canon. Let’s not confuse ourselves.

I also prefer to see it as George coming up with ideas constantly instead of constantly changing his mind. When I think of the way the Star Wars story came about, I can admit that it did happen, but I don’t think it happened in the way you’re trying to prove.

It should be noted that he did not have 500 ideas for the Sequel Trilogy. He has like 5. He always said he had vague ideas, because he never really considered it would happen. All the ideas he did mention, do not contradict each other. There was a post earlier that links to a collection of interviews with George regarding the Sequel Trilogy. Check it out!

DominicCobb said:
This thread is just speculative fan fiction. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

Of course. I never said it wasn’t. I’m sorry you came into here thinking it was otherwise. I should’ve been more clearer. I would like to justify our “fan fiction” though: at least it’s more rooted in the creator’s ideas than Disney’s trilogy was. So which one is the real fan fiction?

Post
#1328107
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

act on instinct said:

You have me in complete agreement there, I would say it’s impossible to leave NO questions unanswered but I’m very interested in the finality of a much more total resolution compared to the previous trilogies.

I’m glad you agree, and I’m sure you’ll love my ideas! I’ve found a perfect way for total finality.

act on instinct said:
I will say there’s going to be a certain point where there just isn’t enough information for the sequels George would have made as those movies were not fully developed. I don’t think it would be absolutely wrong to take good ideas that would make sense from the trilogy and make use of every part of the buffalo here, they weren’t Lucas but they were still made by Lucasfilm and even if the details would change it’s always easier to edit from something than to write from nothing.

Definitely. If Disney turns out to be as greedy as they seem, they will never let us know the real stories for Episodes VII-IX. We hardly have any information to go on, but that tiny amount of info is enough to inspire us. It’s up to us to come up with an engaging and compelling storyline based off the details we know. However, it should be noted that the movies virtually were fully developed. Concept art had been drawn, the stories had been fleshed out by George, and Michael Arndt had written a script for Episode VII. They were fully formed. JJ decided not to use them.

I love your thinking. We should always seek to use every part of the Buffalo. In the past, I have used certain ideas from the Disney trilogy, just because they seemed nice. But they were few and far between. I don’t really see any value in any of the ideas beyond Episode VII. We at least know that movie was based off Michael Arndt’s script, so those things in there we can take.

Post
#1328056
Topic
Most Disappointing / Satisfying Aspect of the Sequel Trilogy?
Time

Ultimately, the most disappointing thing was the fact that it didn’t even tell us a story. If you put all three films together, there’s literally nothing. TFA sets up a lot of interesting plot lines, TLJ negates everything, and TROS is a video game with no plotline. It’s embarrassing that TROS made over $1 billion. It’s like Disney was playing Limbo with the quality of the films. And our answers through the box office was: as low as you want to go; we’ll watch anything.

Another huge disappointment was how TROS ruined the Force. It just got out of control with that movie. What a genius idea to get the guy who wrote Batman v Superman to write Star Wars.

The best part was seeing Luke again as a “Jedi”, and seeing the main protagonist being a girl (albeit an awfully written character).

Post
#1328054
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

Hey everyone!

I’ve been enjoying reading all the comments so far. However, I have noticed a particular point in many comments that I feel the need to address: the Disney Trilogy being used as proof to a point.

I’m sorry everyone, but this thread was created to inspire a recreation of George’s vision for the Sequels, and in order to do that, we can only reference Episodes I-VI. A lot of people have been defining the Force off of what someone in the Disney Trilogy has said, and I admire everyone’s passion about this, but I regret to inform you that this is not the place for that declaration. The ways in which the Force are discussed in the Disney sequels are contradictory to the ways in which the Force is discussed in George’s Star Wars Saga. So please refrain the future from referencing those movies. This thread is a place for us to invent what the proper cannon should have been. Thank you!

Post
#1328053
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

act on instinct said:

But couldn’t not taking a side produce or prolong suffering due to inaction? Wouldn’t under that definition disillusioned Luke be correct in no longer fighting? I think these philosophical questions are what the characters should be struggling with, but as the ultimate answer for me it doesn’t track, doesn’t resolve anything and I question how it even forwards the narrative. So much about Star Wars is about choosing trust and love and that being an active thing that even puts you in danger but it’s the right thing to do, balance as neutrality clashes against that for me.

Very wise, yes. Not taking a side is even more dangerous than taking a side. Here are some wise words from a wise man:

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”

  • MLK Jr.
Post
#1328052
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

DominicCobb said:

The issue as many see with the Jedi’s approach is that they taught their students to essentially suppress any and all emotion that leads to the dark side. That’s unhealthy, and in the end we see that it leads to the dark side as well.

I don’t know if it’s “unhealthy”. It worked for 1000 years.

Try not to misconstrue Anakin’s mistakes as a result of the Jedi way. That wasn’t the case at all. Anakin was brought up the most un-Jedi way ever. He received late training. He had attachments to his mother. He disobeyed the Jedi code and got married. And he spent the majority of his Jedi life in battle. Of course he would turn to the Dark Side. He doesn’t even know what it means to be a Jedi.

Post
#1328051
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

act on instinct said:

Seeing as the Sith are also ancient and the force can be wielded by them albeit through the dark side to me points a bit closer to the direction that the Force/Whills are a vaguely neutral energy that can be taken advantage of, unless they are playing a larger game. The Force does seem to allow bad things to happen then watch and see how it plays out so I don’t see a problem really with a person who does have free will abusing the force without the whills intervening so personally, ultimately I might wonder if those beings could even conceptualize morals in that way or at that scale. The whills should have some intention but the risk of demystifying and damaging the relationship of the force to the audience is at an extreme high, I definitely understand why going microbiotic to begin with is already too much for some though I find it vindicates their inclusion in the prequels. Embrace the Midi-Chlorian…

Very interesting. So maybe the Whills don’t recognize the Dark or Light side views. This actually would fit with what George said the sequels were about long ago; learning that good and evil are similar and more vague than we thought. Maybe the Whills become tired of the Jedi and Sith taking advantage of them and are rebelling.

And I understand your valid trepidation on demystifying the Force. Just remember that we’re going to make it clear, these beings feed off and control the Force. You could say they are the Force, but they still aren’t, they just control it. And it’s okay that we get close to answering these epic questions, because this is the ending of the Saga. We’re wrapping things up for good, leaving no questions unanswered for future sequels.

act on instinct said:

This is actually a pretty hard one because the further we try to fill the gaps the more difficult questions concerning how the lore can be faithfully expanded need to be given an answer. I think harnessing a Jedi’s power after killing them also is a weak idea as well as derivations of that premise like collecting kyber crystals or anything along those lines would be too on the nose. Still, I think the closer we get to revealing beyond the veil and the inherent relationship between life and death to the spiritual realm there leaves room for interpretation as to where that energy goes and how it can be measured or perceived. As you mentioned with Luke his own misinterpretation could lead to his disillusionment, so even if the Jedi killer is failing to achieve this ultimate power through their violent means the motivation can stay the same, same as it ever was for dark siders really, misguided power seeking even if it means going through people.

The Lore won’t be expanded beyond Episode IX. The saga will be over, for good. It will be made abundantly clear.

You are right about bringing those questions up. The spirits we see are manifestations of preserved consciousness in the Force. We at least know we would encounter the spirit of Anakin, who represents the balance of the dark side and the light.

I talked with a philosopher recently about my ideas for Luke’s disillusionment, and he helped me see the flaw in my idea, so I decided to change it. I think it would be best if we stick with what the original idea for Luke’s disillusionment was: his faith shaken by the betrayal from the Jedi killer.

Post
#1328049
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

yotsuya said:

You lose some of the mystery if you explain too much. When you add in the midiclorians to the force it diminished the force. Add in the Whills as small microscopic beings and that further degrades. Portray them as some sort of spirit or ethereal being can have them act the same without ruining things. George got the magic when he did the OT. He seems to have forgotten in the PT, but what he approved from Filoni put it back again.

I understand what you’re saying. At the same time I can’t understand why keeping the Force a mystery is interesting. If it remains a mystery and never explained, then there never is a journey of understanding. This becomes a video game where you just have powers for some reason. He’s just expanding the lore, and honestly if you want the Force to remain a mystery, you can stick to the Originals. Although the Originals explain the Force very clearly: “It’s an energy field created by all Living Things”. What’s mysterious about that? It’s an energy field, not a superpower.

Adding Midi-Chlorians to the lore does not diminish the Force, particularly because the Midi-Chlorians are not a part of the Force. They explain how we can use the Force. We have microscopic beings inside our cells that communicate with the Whills, whom control the Force. Nothing here is contradictory. The Force is still this “mystical” energy field. I’m sorry you don’t see it that way, but I started this thread so we could talk about ways to implement George’s ideas, not criticize them.

yotsuya said:

And the way I see it, the force is neutral. It is neither good nor bad. It has a dark side and a light side, but neither one is evil. How you use them can be and letting the force consume you is. So it is not the force itself that corrupts, but a person’s own desires. They get drunk on the power of the dark side and let out their worst. The Jedi failing is in shunning the dark side. That is what created the imbalance in my opinion. Had they maintained the balance, the Sith could never have grown so powerful. It is what GL wrote in the PT. It is all there. Filoni, Abrams, and Johnson have only confirmed that. I got this from GL himself and how he wrote the films.

Those are interesting theories, but we’re here to talk about the way George sees the Force, not the way we see it. Our opinions aren’t what’s important here. And please stop bringing up Abrams and Johnson as they never received approval or guidance from Lucas. They’re the ones who threw his stories out because they think they understand Star Wars better than he does. “George loves his Midi-Chlorians”…the gall. Filoni btw, expands on the Force in his own show. We learn in the Clone Wars where Midi-Chlorians came from, and that there are 2 types of Force; Cosmic and Living. At least he respects George’s vision.

yotsuya said:

And yet there is that bit that is in several of the films where the Jedi admit they are having problems with the force.

Because the Dark Side was clouding their judgement. Yoda says that a lot in Episodes II and III.

yotsuya said:
So Rey is NOT a Jedi trained in the Old Republic traditions, but has the original Jedi text… from the age when they were balanced. Luke noted she was not afraid of the dark side. To her, it is all just the force. Revelation of her origins tests that balance, but she regains it.

The fact that Rey is not trained in the Old Republic traditions is irrelevant because Rey is not trained as a Jedi at all. She is a poor excuse for a more interesting character named Kira, the granddaughter of Darth Vader.

yotsuya said:
It isn’t a matter of which side of the force you use, it is all in how you use it and why. The user must be balanced.

“Learn to know the power of the Dark Side of the Force, the power to save Padmé.” The Force cannot be a matter in how you simply use it. If that was the case, than Anakin would have just learned how to save Padmé without turning to the Dark Side. He was doing it for a good reason after all. “The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.” You can only use certain powers through the Dark Side. So it does matter which side of the Force you are a part of. It mattered to Anakin.

yotsuya said:

I don’t see the force itself as good or bad. It’s dark side is not inherently bad, just susceptible to bad uses. It is the users and the orders that are good or bad.

This is really good. This is what the Whills are. This is what the audience, and Luke will learn about the Force.

yotsuya said:
The Sith are the embodiment of evil. Destroying them will not automatically bring balance to the force, but it will end their line of evil. Balance can return when the force is used in balance. What I take Lucas saying is not that the force itself (the underlying energy of the universe) has an evil aspect, but that the Sith have been using it for evil and destroying them brings balance (post order 66) by ending their abuse of the power. Luke tapped into the dark side and didn’t fall. He’s seen that balance first hand.

So with this we would suggest that the Whills might have aspects to them we would consider evil. Interesting.

Post
#1327818
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

yotsuya said:

He on one hand says that the force is not ying and yang, but on the other that is how he wrote the stories. That is what Dave Filoni has taken from it and what shows up in Clone Wars and Rebels and The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker.

What stories? From all the movies George has written, it’s not that case at all. Dave Filoni is just as capable as misunderstand Star Wars lore as everyone other than George is.

yotsuya said:

The way I take the events of the PT is that the Jedi have slide too far to the light and have tipped the balance while the Sith have grown in power. So both sides are out of whack and in need of a reset. The Jedi think the Chosen One will come and wipe out the Sith. The Sith don’t care. So the Chosen one comes and the Sith lure him to the dark side and he helps wipe out the Jedi. Then 23 years later he wipes out his sith master and comes back to the light side. He balanced the force by resetting everything leaving Luke to rebuild.

I know where you’re coming from. I used to believe this too. I agree that it seems like a much nicer theory or way to view balance, but if we truly want to respect George’s vision, we have to adhere to what he defines as Balance. The Dark Side is when a person uses the Force to disrupt nature. It’s a slippery slope, because you only need to use a little of it to become a Sith. In order to preserve the Force, darkness must be eradicated completely, and this is the prophecy Anakin fulfills. If Balance to the Force means that the Dark side is just as strong as the Light, then this war would never end. The Star Wars story would never have a conclusion, which would make it pointless because it wouldn’t be going anywhere. Why even tell it? It would just be a state, not an evolution/story.

yotsuya said:

But there are still other force users out there. In The Last Jedi they made it very clear (Following in line with The Clone Wars and rebels - both which Lucas consulted on and okayed) that it very much is a ying and yang and they need to be in balance. They can be in balance in each person. Ignoring either side creates the imbalance.

Lucas consulted and Okay’d the Clone Wars. He didn’t oversee every little detail or plotline. George did not oversee or Okay the Last Jedi, which is where you’re getting the perception of Balance from. It’s incorrect. We’re not going to talk about the Sequels we got here, we’re going to talk about George’s Sequels.

yotsuya said:

I think he would have abandoned his Whills idea. Now if they were the race we saw in Clone Wars, that would have been cool, but microscopic? No.

The Whills have existed in Star Wars since the very first draft. He didn’t abandon them for almost 50 years; he wouldn’t now. He had hired screenwriter Michael Ardnt to write scripts based off this plotline. It was going to happen.

We never saw the Whills in the Clone Wars. And calling the Whills a bad idea because of how they would be executed on screen is a weak argument because we don’t know how they would’ve been presented. That’s where we can come in and come up with some cool stuff. In movies, any idea can be good enough if presented properly.

Post
#1327813
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

OutboundFlight said:

One thing I’d love to see is more emphasis on Anakin / Vader. I haven’t thought all this through but what if the main villains find a way to resurrect Darth Vader? But this is purely his “evil” form. In the process the force ripples and creates a reborn lightside Anakin (by Hayden Christensen) who acts like Gandalf the White. The two forces of the Chosen One literally collide, and in the end, his soul is at rest and the force balanced.

How would these personalities of Anakin manifest themselves? How would they appear to us?

I’m hesitant of this idea, because it ultimately ends up creating an “evil-twin” confrontation, like a cheap 80s TV show. I’d like to think Star Wars is above that.

We do know that there are no souls in Star Wars. Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Qui-Gon are Force Ghosts because Qui-Gon learned how to preserve their consciousness after death from a Shaman of the Whills. So the dualism would have to be in Anakin’s consciousness.

Post
#1327809
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

act on instinct said:

Again I worry about characterizing the whills too far so much that they become individualized almost like greek gods, I’d rather see the evil act originate from a mortal character that corrupts the balance and we get a closer look at the interplay between the human will’s influence over midichlorians vs the whills. There can be a need for powerful force users to be lured and sacrificed to harness that power which could be what happens with Darth Talon. I think a lot of the trilogy arc would be the mystery behind the force as it builds to a climax, with dark siders and light seeking deeper, more ancient answers, hard and heavy on eastern influence.

I agree. I would like to keep the Whills as vague as possible, but I’m not going to allow that to make me fearful of using them to a compelling point. I view the Whills like the Q Continuum from Star Trek. We see them as separate entities, yet they are all the same person/conscience. They’ve been using and controlling us to act out their own will. This is what should disillusion Luke. “My Father brought balance to the Force, but the Force has betrayed me and allowed evil to rise again. My faith and trust in the Force is shaken.” And then Kira comes along, and by passing on everything he learned to her, his faith is restored.

I absolutely love your idea of our own wills versus the Whills. That’s a phenomenal point to make in the Trilogy. A good point for Kira to make to Luke. BTW, the mortal who corrupts the Force could be Darth Temptress, corrupting the Jedi Killer while he’s training under Luke. The question is tho, where does this corruptor come from, and why did the Force allow this happen? I think it would be interesting if there was something going wrong with the Whills/the Force.

Could you elaborate a bit more on the luring and sacrificing comment you made? I don’t know if harnessing someone else’s power is possible. You either have a high Midi-Chlorian count or you don’t.

I really love your last comment. That’s exactly what I think the Sequel Trilogy should do for the Jedi plotline.

Post
#1327557
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

Here’s an interesting idea I had guys:

For the longest time, the biggest reason George said there wouldn’t be a sequel trilogy was because Anakin had brought Balance to the Force. Now what does Balance mean? To George Lucas, Balance does not mean that both the Dark side and the Light side are equal in strength. It’s not that Zen. It actually means, that the Dark side does not exist at all, and only the Light side uses the Force. So by the end of Episode VI, Anakin fulfilled the prophecy, and brought Balance to the Force by killing Palpatine, the last Sith lord. So the story’s over then, because the only way you could have another story, is by having another villain, but then that would negate the Prophecy Anakin fulfilled.

But yet, George’s Sequel outlines contained two villains: Darth Temptress, and the Jedi Killer (those are my rough draft names for them). Two villains, both of whom are Force users. How? Didn’t Anakin bring balance to the Force? Well, what if there was something wrong with the Force? In George’s Sequel Trilogy, we were going to find out that the Force is actually made up of microscopic beings called Whills, beings who created the Universe and the Midi-Chlorians. What if among the Whills, there was an evil Whill? What if this Whill rebelled against the continuum, and allowed these 2 villains to rise to power? Maybe that’s where the war of the Sequel Trilogy was to take place; in the micro-biotic world.

Post
#1327556
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

yotsuya said:

About the only thing I had guessed from what Lucas and Hammil had said was that Luke would have the Qui-gon/Obi-wan role in the sequel. So he’d be in the first film and die near the end of it, passing on the torch to the new generation. And like Obi-wan, he’d come back as a force ghost as needed in the following two films.

Right. You got part of it right. Luke was supposed to train Leia and the girl (Kira) by Episode IX, and then he would have been slain by the Jedi Killer.

yotsuya said:

I also expected that if Solo were in it that he’d die as well.

Definitely. Harrison Ford said that the only reason he joined the project was because his character was going to die, and this was back when Ardnt was writing a script off George’s treatment.

yotsuya said:

From what little I can guess, there was supposed to be a young girl who is the new Jedi hero who comes to Luke for training.

Right. Her name was Kira, and she was the Granddaughter of Darth Vader (Han and Leia’s child). She also had a brother named Sam.

yotsuya said:

I think if you are going something closer to what Lucas drafted in his treatment that the first film would be Luke’s film. It would end with his death in something epic. You’d introduce whatever the ST epic evil would be in the first film (or his henchman like in both the OT and PT).

The villain for the film was supposed to be a Jedi Killer. He was the original inception for Kylo Ren, so you could call him that. He was a student of Luke’s who turned evil and murdered his padawans. But he was not a Skywalker. The Jedi Killer was seduced to the Dark Side by an unnamed female Darth, who used him and ended up murdering him eventually.

yotsuya said:

I like what Rian did with TLJ that anyone can be a Jedi, but that it can run in families.

I regard the ability to become a Jedi like the likelihood of you or I becoming an athlete. I mean sure, it’s not impossible, but it’s closer to a fantasy than a reality. It’s like the line from Ratatouille: “Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere”.

yotsuya said:

And Leia should have more force abilities from the get go. Probably not a Jedi, not in the sense of a warrior. But using those skills for negotiation.

I love that idea! That’s great, thanks! There is going to be a point where Luke trains Leia, but I have her starting out as a politician, so those initial force powers could make for some good scenes.

yotsuya said:

I’d have the Republic go through some growing pains, but come out the Trilogy intact.

That’s similar to the arc I’ve got. For it, I’m drawing inspiration from China’s 3 Kingdoms period. The Republic is one of the 3 factions remaining.

yotsuya said:

I’d have the Skywalker in the ST be a pilot. Not quite powerful enough in the force to be a Jedi, but powerful enough to be an ace pilot.

Yep, this would be a perfect character template for Sam.

yotsuya said:

The key thing, the thing I worried about with the ST we got, is the ending. What is the ending of the trilogy that is going to be epic enough to top ROTS and ROTJ. It has to further the story and bring it to a close. So the big bad needs to be connected to Palpatine and the Sith, though resurrecting Palpatine might not have been the best way to go about it. Maybe the big bad is trying to resurrect Palpatine. Maybe mentored by Palpatine’s ghost. But no physical Palpatine. Maybe the big bad was one of the Emperor’s hand’s like Mara Jade. And that is a character I would have included.

I’m still toying around with the idea of getting Plagueis involved. I think it would be a great surprise that he faked his death. He is Wise after all, he would’ve seen the betrayal coming. However, with the Whills involved, this story will not lack in epicness, so I might be able to drop that plotline. But as far as I’m concerned, Palpatine should be dead.

I think it’s interesting that you would include Mara Jade. I haven’t made up my mind on Luke’s love life yet.

Post
#1327555
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

act on instinct said:

I would have loved to have seen the Whills, they are the deepest lore dive the series ever would have taken. As far as their ethereal nature I can only really think of themes and visuals (the quantum reality mirrored against space) over plotlines, but I like your idea that they might be discovered and considered a source of cosmic ring like power over the universe. I’m not sure how much further they should really be characterized or explained without diminishing their larger than life ever presence, should be about as ambiguous as the power of the ark in Raiders.

I would have loved to’ve seen them too! I’m intrigued by your “quantum reality” comment. Are you suggesting something similar to what we see in the MCU? That would be awesome. I know in order for them to meet the Whills, they have to travel to their “realm”. Right now, I imagine they do that by touching the Journal or meditating deeply. But come Episode IX, R2-D2 is supposed to meet them, so he can transcribe to them the entire Star Wars saga. I suppose that means at somepoint the Whills are suppose to come to our “realm”, because I imagine R2-D2 can’t travel to theirs.

act on instinct said:

Honestly I think they would have to be the major plotline still to even communicate how important they are to the saga, it’s a consciousness commentary, I don’t think Star Wars has ever been as sophisticated and it’s extremely difficult to imagine how it would be integrated.

You’re right. Introducing the Whills would vastly affect the plot, at least for the Jedi storyline (I doubt the Politicians would care). Right now, I imagine a good way to integrate the Whills would be through the villains. The Jedi Killer and Darth Talon want something. What? Probably something to do with the Whills.

act on instinct said:

To leapfrog a bit off of what Sheev tells Anakin about the power to influence midichlorians I think this would be a great payoff to be fully realized, a Sith creation as some manipulation of dark matter. I also think invoking and involving the universe itself as representation of the Whills could become pretty cataclysmic and satisfyingly epic for a conclusion, both fated yet still down to individual choice. Multiply the hyperspace ram by a factor of an exploding star as the protagonist becomes more or less enlightened by the force and transcends as the literal “light” manifests and the universe and the individual operate as one (Neo-ish, if you like).

Wow, I had forgotten that influencing the Midi-Chlorians was a Force power that already existed. But only Plagueis knew how to do that. I doubt it would be reasonable to give that insane ability to the new villains. It would raise too many questions. I had imagined we would at least hear the Midi-Chlorians whispering to us in the Realm of the Whills. George said in an interview that Midi-Chlorians are a type of Whill. Maybe we would see them.

As for the transcendence, I imagined that this would ultimately be the fate of Luke, Anakin, or maybe both.

Post
#1327322
Topic
The Sequels - George's Original Trilogy
Time

Hi everyone. So right now, I’m busy plotting out my own take on what the Sequels should have been. I’m going to try and base them off of as much of George Lucas’ original ideas as I can find. I would like to ask you guys for some ideas right now on a certain aspect. George has said that the Sequel Trilogy was to be more Ethereal. I’m assuming that ties in with the Whills and how they reveal our Destinies are written. What do you guys think would be an interesting plot line to have that involves the Whills with the Force?

In my Sequel Trilogy, the Whills are immortal beings that created the Universe, and they Control the Force. They decided to create Midi-Chlorians in the Star Wars galaxy, to see what would happen, and have been keeping track of the Jedi wars in the Journal of the Whills.

Some ideas I have (though I might not use) involve the discovery of the Whills by either Luke or the Jedi Killer. Maybe they discover them by discovering first the Journal of the Whills, which details the events of a different Galaxy. If Luke discovers the Whills, then maybe it would discourage him to know that we do not have free will, for we are always adhering to the Whill of the Force. Maybe he ignores the call to action this time round because he believes the Whills will take care of everything. However, if the Jedi Killer discovers the Whills, then I’d imagine he’d want to either learn their powers or force them to do his biding. Maybe he’d want them to destroy the Galaxy and create a new one for the Sith to rule.

Another idea I have is that Anakin might be a Whill. I imagine a scene where Kira touches the Journal and is transported to the realm of the Whills, where she meets the ghost of Anakin who turns into Darth Vader under the right light. The idea is that Anakin is the chosen one, so his eternal duty is to preserve balance in the Force in this realm.

Those are some basic ideas I have right now. I have to be honest, this is toughest part of the Trilogy to come up with. I’ve got a nice political plot line, and a story for the characters and how the Saga ends, but I’m having difficulty coming up with something “ethereal”.

Post
#1327319
Topic
<strong>Return Of The Jedi</strong> - a general <strong>Random Thoughts</strong> thread
Time

There are a lot of different ways I would change Return of the Jedi. I think it’s still an enjoyable film, but it’s definitely the weakest of the OT.

First off, I think the writers completely forgot about Darth Vader’s motivation in Episode V. If you can recall, Darth Vader seemed to be misleading the Emperor into thinking that he would either turn Luke or kill him. But instead, we find in the famous scene where he tells Luke he’s his father, that Vader was actually plotting to get Luke to kill the Emperor for him. Come Episode VI, this plot line is completely abandoned, and I think that’s a real shame. I think it would make the movie 10 times more interesting if Vader was constantly bothering Luke, trying to get him to turn to the dark side so he can kill the Emperor. And at the same time, everyone on the light side can be telling Luke the same thing; kill the Emperor! We can then have Luke plan to turn his father back to the light side, and Vader will ultimately become the one who destroys the Emperor. After all, this was Vader’s problem. He had been living as a pawn of the Emperor for decades. It would be ultimately cowardly of him to get his son to get him out of this mess. And it is his Son that ultimately redeems him. So firstly, the movie should be more about Anakin’s relationship with Palpatine, and how it has soured.

Secondly, I think it would be best to change Endor back into Kashyyyk. In Episode III, the Battle of Kashyyyk is presented to the audience as one of the turning battles of the Clone Wars. We see the Wookies free and fighting in the beginning, then annihilated and forced into slavery at the end. It would be poetic if come Episode VI, the Wookies are the ones to turn the tide of the War again by defeating the Empire.

Thirdly, I think the whole Jabba’s Palace adventure needs to be toned down. Ultimately, Luke’s plan makes NO sense. In the movie, Luke sends R2 and 3PO to Jabba as gifts. Why? Now we have more hostages to save. Then Luke sends Leia disguised as a bounty hunter, and sells Chewbacca to Jabba. Why? Now we have more hostages to save. You see the pattern here? If not, then Leia gets captured rescuing Han, and now we have another person for Luke to save. And thru all of this, Lando happens to have infiltrated the Palace and does… nothing. Wow. What a BS plan.

Fourthly, I think we need to have a more political plot line in the movie. Why is the Emperor building another Death Star? In Episode IV, Tarkin reveals that the Original Death Star was to be used to keep the Regional Governors in line with the Empire. So since the rebels destroyed the first one, are the Regional Governors not following the Emperors will? Just throwing a couple of lines that explains the state of the Galaxy would help tremendously.

Although I think there still needs to be more to change, those are some of the more basic things I can think of.