PDB

Great works guy. I love the raw look of the scan. Thanks for sharing!

Handman said:

PDB said:

Does anyone know where I can view the scan of the Raiders trailer?

 It is an extra on Team Negative1's release of their 35mm scan of Empire. It can be found in the usual places.

litemakr said:

PDB said:

 

Does anyone know where I can view the scan of the Raiders trailer?

 http://thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2014/12/02/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-35mm-Trailer-in-HD

You can download a 1080p version there. Def doesn't look like the blu ray. More brown/red than wowow but not orange ;)

Looks a lot like my super 8 version

Thanks guys. 

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

WOW! A lot of work!!! Hope you will decide to make menus and, if possible, extras too... c'mon, make me (us) happy... (^^,)

 Hope, I can live up to the standards you set Andrea. Maybe I can send you a test copy to look at sometime.

I would love an invite also, please. Thanks

kk650 said:

PDB said:

Hey kk650 I'd love to look at your regrade. You have any comparison pics?

I do. With the V2 release I really adjusted fleshtones more than anything, I felt they were far too red on the blu-ray, making everybody look sunburned. The overall warm feel remains similar to the blu-ray though. Here are four screencap comparisons:

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85227

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85228

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85229

http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85230

Very much looking forward to your Alien, Aliens and Blade Runner projects BTW, they're what i'm looking forward to most on this site :)

 kk650, I like your regrade. It's kind of in keeping with with what I was talking about in this thread, that the orange might be a bad representation of a yellow/gold tint gone bad. I'm going to download a copy and give it a whirl. I think we can all agree the more choices, the better.

Again outside of colors I do agree with litemkr that the wowow is a better transfer from a technical standpoint but you go with the best transfer for your project. 

(Unrelated and not trying to thread crap I did do an update in the Alien regrade thread about it's current status. Kk650, Id like to send you a copy sometime in the future to get your opinion since you have done a ton of regrades and done a regrade of Alien in particular if I recall)

Does anyone know where I can view the scan of the Raiders trailer?

dvdmike said:

Is the Cinemax version about?

 To my knowledge no. But if I can ever get it captured I might make a project of it.

dvdmike said:

Do we have the Titanic DTS CD? if not I may have found a source 

 You may want to ask Jetrell Fo in his DTS thread. He is the man in the know about the theatrical DTS CDs.

Doombot is in the know.

The short is: I'm still actively working on it and have picked up the pace recently now that work has died down a bit for Christmas. 

The long is:

The video is done (and that was the hard part). Been done since November but syncing has taken longer with me trying to finish up work for the year. The 4.1 comes from the BR so its in sync. Jonno provided me with the 2.0 Dolby Surround/Stereo from the Collections Edition laserdisc and I finished sync on that a few days ago. I am currently syncing up the Dolby Digital 5.1 from the THX laserdisc (aka the sensurround/70mm test track).

The next question is do I do menus and extras? Jonno has a found one or two nice extras but in order to include them I need to do menus which I can't do at the moment. I have Adobe Encore, so it becomes a question of can I teach myself to create semi-professional looking menus. Right now if I do menus I'm leaning toward pop-up ones only like Warner Bros' BRs.

My plan at the moment is to give a link to several people to download first to test it before I make it public. The reason why is I hand regraded 2,537 shots and/or individual frames over a 5 month period. Since that a lot work and its my first project, I want to make sure there are no hiccups before I set it loose. So it will be test to make sure I didn't miss a frame, there's bad audio sync, etc.

Cool, just making sure. I assume they were the same but you can never be sure. Thanks for the info Spacer Ranger and Star Thoughts. I think I going to try to pick up a copy of the CLV version and at least do a capture first.

So for clarification, do the CAV and CLV have the same picture? The Kubrick approved one? 

dvdmike said:

Oblivion looks neat, didn't know there was an imax ratio shift that major.

Is that version about? I find since hd media turned up no one rips from tv anymore 

True Lies 70mm blow up, like many was 2.20:1 

 Yeah, in regular theaters Oblivion was constant 2.39 like the BR. In digital IMAXs it was opened up to the full 1.90 (they finished the effect for that ratio) except the dream sequences are still 2.39. The US Cinemax presentation was 1.77 for all but the dream sequences which were still 2.39 so it duplicates the IMAX presentation nicely minus maybe cropped sides.

Not sure if that version is about the net, those pics were off my DVR which I'm still trying to make a good capture of.

US pay cable channels use to show everything in OAR, something I encourage, but in the last few years they seem to have gone cropped. Its crap but it does result in some nice treats every once in a while in the form of "open matte" presentations. In fact the first Hobbit was open too.

Thanks for the comments on the Last Crusade pics. I agree that the 70mm pic has got to be totally wrong. But I don't think the two pics I presented are anymore right. I was just a test to get more orange like the 70mm but keep the skies blue.

(Ironically if I recall correctly the beginning of LC was shot in Arches National Park in Moab Utah. A place I've been many times. And yes it does look orange but sometimes red if that mattered and it doesn't).

Hey kk650 I'd love to look at your regrade. You have any comparison pics?

What the hell? That's unexpected and goes against everything we have ever known about TGTBATU. So it is truely the most complete version ever. I wonder how the Sorry Tuco got removed from the Italian version.

Was it dubbed in by the same actor who dubbed in all of Clint's lines?

I tried a little experiment with Last Crusade (Christmas downtime), working with BR and moving closer to the 70mm frame but trying not to go as orange as the 70mm (keeping skies blue):

BR/BR with yellow/BR with yellow and red (orange)

Nice detective work Spaced Ranger. Does anyone have a capture of the Kubrick approved transfer LD? I'd like to test a regrade of the BR.

Love to get Skyfall in open matte, similar to the way I saw it in digital IMAX. Ironically, Servo mentioned True Lies, which I was just talking about with Doombot. I was trying to capture it off of my DVR:

D-VHS/Cable Broadcast

and also a cool one, Oblivion played on cable like it did in IMAX, opened up for most of the film but still in 2.39 for the flashbacks/dreams opposed to the constant 2.39 on the Blu-ray:

BR/Cable Broadcast

A new addition, a Christmas gift from Buster D:

Movie: Star Trek VI

Format: Laserdisc PILF-1771 (Japan)

Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect 

Output Soundtrack 1: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit

Output Soundtrack 2: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 48 khz, 16-bit

Synced To: 2009 Blu-ray Release Region A/2013 Individual Release

Ripped/Synced by: Buster D

Notes: Contains the original Dolby Stereo soundtrack edited down from the Extended Cut to match the Theatrical Cut on Blu-ray

Fantastic, congrats for finishing T1 and T2.

AntcuFaalb said:

PDB said:

If anyone is near Maryland, USA

Columbia (Howard County) here!

 Sweet, glad to see some fellow members here on the OT in the DMV. I'm across the river in Northern Virginia.

Harmy said:

It's clearly either a very warm back-light or a badly set camera - you can see the perforated stripes on the sides are yellow too and those are clear, so should be white :-)

 My thoughts too but I saw that in the discussion on Last Crusade's 70mm showing and though well that's not going help people in this thread. Ha

(Although I've seen a lot of slightly yellow sprockets on 70mm before.)

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/columns/history-legacy--showmanship/last-crusade-25th-anniv

If my PM holds out you can PM me for the LD soundtrack.

litemakr said:

What are people's thoughts about the super 8? It doesn't match wowow or blu-ray really, but it is closer to wowow. It has more red and brown than wowow (some due to slight red shift), but not the orange/gold haze of the blu. 

Thanks for posting it litemakr. I hope you don't mind that I'm going to post a few pics from it for this thread:

My comments are based on the video you posted, you are actually seeing the print which is a different experience. So if I'm off let me know. Overall its is similar to the 16mm pics I posted. I can see why you originally said the 8mm looked half way between the WOWOW and the BD. It looks to me like the print starts closest to the WOWOW but with a little of the 16mm yellow in it but over all very pale with cold-ish color timing. But the pics toward the end come off as similar in orange to the BD, unless that's the red/brown you a referencing and it show up more as orange here. Brown, red and orange can mush together sometimes. I can't 100% determine from you video but are the skies blue-ish or yellow-ish in the desert scenes? I notice that the credits are more yellow-ish then white.

It is fair to point out that on a color wheel there are many, many different yellows (as we all know):

And if I had to determine what went where the 16mm tends to the green side of the yellow spectrum whereas the 35mm and the BD are clearly toward the red (obviously passing into orange). 

captainsolo said:

 It's posts like this that remind me why I love this place so much. Thoughtful, insightful, honest and respectful to the film itself.

Plus people here don't think I'm crazy. That helps.

That "restored" 35mm toured the country and was indeed what I saw theatrically. It was from a 6K scan I think from what I've heard and was the last thing Ron Smith oversaw before leaving Paramount. Other than a fresh scan I don't think they did very much...but then of course you have the color which was the basic source of the BD look. Seeing this print was an odd experience as the color was the look of the BD but with far greater detail in addition to being extremely bright. You could faintly see some of the coverups done to hide the negative damage from the Tanis dig sequence at times. The sound seemed to be a very low volume version of the DVD 5.1. Then this was shown digitally in IMAX with apparently the new Blu-ray mix.

Trailers have a certain look, original prints look a certain way, and all of those have their own identities. All I can say is that my favorite audio is on the WS LD.

Now I really want to see a print for all 3. I've seen grabs of frames from LC, and that had a depth not found on disc. I can't even begin to think of how awesome Temple would be.

Thanks captain. I tried to lay out my thoughts as clearly and precisely as possible, notwithstanding my horrific typing skills. I don't believe these things about Raiders without a clear chain of evidence backing it up. This isn't in a vacuum. 

I do maintain an open mind. Could I be wrong? Sure. Could I be right? Sure. But in a big picture sense, everyone could be wrong. I brought it up earlier that everyone thought they knew what The Matrix looked in theaters. And everyone was 100% wrong. Everyone. And that's a film from 1999 not 1981. Hell, I have the AFI Silver not too far away from my house. I have seen Raiders and the other two many, many times on original 35mm in the 2000s and I based none of my arguments on those viewings. People's memories are too weak for that, the Matrix taught me that.

When I saw Road Warrior a few years ago, I printed out pics from the BD and DVD to see what was the true color timing of that movie. I had clear goals as to what I was looking for. So from the guy in a theater holding up printouts to the screen to figure out the right colors, you're not crazy, you're home here at the OT.

Digressing again. If anyone is near Maryland, USA and a film lover you should really go to the AFI Silver. Its a movie lovers dream. They have an 80's month every August where you can watch 80s era films as original 80s era prints.

Captainsolo is right. Trailers are iffy to go off of. They can have no, some or full color timing. Depending where on the chain they were put together. I re-graded Aliens to its 35mm trailer but is that right? Who knows.

In the end I'm not trying to convince people to watch the BD over the WOWOW, I know better then that with this crowd (which includes me). And for point of order I watch both. Frankly, I would love a combo, the detail of the WOWOW with the color timing of the BD and the LD's Dolby Surround. But again at the end of the day we need a non-faded 80s era print. So someone else get on that and help me out, I'm trying to find one myself. And if I'm wrong I won't give a crap since I will have a 35mm print of Raiders proving me wrong. 

rockin said:

Has anyone captured the Raiders LD audio? 

Yep and synced to the BD.

And to put a cap on this post, someone posted on the digitalbits posted a pic from a foreign 70mm print of Last Crusade. Not saying this is right but if you hate the orange of the Raiders BD, this is going to kill you:

Very cool stuff

litemakr said:

Thanks for posting all of those screenshots PDB. The thing I love about this forum is everyone is truly passionate about film. I agree with you that Raiders should be a bit more yellow and that the jungle scenes were a bit less green. I just think they went overboard on the blu-ray.  And I don't like the washed out appearance of some of it.

I received my Super 8 version of Raiders today. It's about 15 minutes long and does a pretty decent job of condensing the movie and featuring some of the big moments. It slighly faded but color is pretty good overall. Some daylight scenes are a bit overexposed.

It seems to match up to the wowow in places and blu-ray in others. I never quite see the orange haze but there is more yellow. One thing that struck me is how much darker the ark opening scene is. The ghosts are bright and look more glowing while the background is much darker.  I will work on getting some screenshots posted. 

Maybe in the end like your Super 8, the truth lies somewhere in between, lightmakr. Maybe a little WOWOW and maybe a little BD, like that pic of the sunset. It often happens that way in life. My point of advocacy is the added yellow to the picture. 

Hopefully, no one takes this too seriously. We are talking movies here. I am passionate about this but also having fun arguing my points. I do agree the BD is not a very good transfer when compared to the WOWOW. The WOWOW's detail and sharpness are simply better. I just think people are judging this as revisionist and I don't think it is. I think the intention was pure. We just don't know if it was a crappy job or a good job till a good 35mm can be scanned. Out of curiosity do you have the ability to scan and post pics of the Super 8? I'd love to see some pics after your description.

ScruffyNerfHerder said:

@PDB Thank you! You stated perfectly what I felt, but lacked the evidence to say. Great use of examples, very well reasoned and explained. Everyone is of course welcome to their own opinion, but I believe the Blu-ray is a very good recreation of Raiders as seen in theaters. 

Thanks ScruffyNerfHerder. I think everyone here in this thread loves this movie and I think we are all just looking for the best presentation of it.

Well, now I get to have fun making picture comparisons. But I'm getting ahead of myself I guess. I should talk about taking pictures of a 16mm (16) or 35mm (35) being projected might not represent it properly, that camera white balance, exposure can play a factor, blah blah, we are adults we all know this but we need reference points so lets push on.

I should say to litemakr those are the only shots I have of that 16mm print. I have pics from another 16mm print but I have to find those. And thanks to Harmy for the 35mm pics (I had them store on a HDD somewhere that I can't find at the moment, Also has my laserdisc captures).

I guess I should reiterate what my position is in this matter before I really get into it. I believe that Raiders' theatrical prints had a yellow/golden tint added to them. Something that was common at the time and something that hasn't been seen before in any home video master. I also believe that the BD was an honest attempt to recreate that look. It is not revisionistic, it is restorative.

Moving on lets look at the 16mm shots I posted. Post here say they look more like the WOWOW then the BD. But let me play devil's advocate against myself first. Let's see if I can see the other perspective.

16mm/35mm (not same frame obviously)/BD/WOWOW (Wow)

Indy's jacket is dark in the 16 and the WOWOW (also in 35mm) but is brown in the BD. That's a point for the WOWOW. The idol has green highlights in the 16 and WOWOW (and also the 35mm). The BD is more prue gold. So that another point for the WOWOW. There is one small point for the BD in that Indy's face is more orange in the 16, 35 and BD whereas in the WOWOW, its tend more red but its a minor difference.The bottom is I do agree that the 16 does match the WOWOW in some cases.

You'll notice the 35mm has a yellow "haze" like the demo dvdmike posted. Well that's how chemical timing was done. Universally, over the whole print.Nowadays with computers you can target parts of the frame/screen instead of the whole

But lets look at the other side. One of the common complaints about the BD was that grass was not green in the beginning chase, that it is yellow

16mm/BD/WOWOW

The 16 is is very yellow. It closest match is the BD which also has "yellowed" grass. Opposed to that the WOWOW's grass is brilliant green. 

Taking a pause right at the moment I can hear people saying that's not right. Grass is green and in the BD its not green. That misses a bit of the point. Movies are not reality and they are not truth. They are beautiful lies told to us but great artists. They can have grass as green or yellow or brown or whatever. Maybe the director and cinematographer wanted the grass to be green, maybe they made sure the grass was ultra green so when they applied a yellow tint, the grass wouldn't totally turn yellow. Hell my yard looks like the BD in the dead of summer.

It remains me of an intresting fact I found out in like when researching what Aliens is suppose to look like in theaters. The Pulse Rifles props used in the film were brown. When under lights, the guns looked more green. Not once in every video release I have seen do those guns look like there true brown. Owners of the original props painted them green to match how they look in the film. So how something looks in really life doesn't mean it will look that way on screen. But I digress, just making a point.

Moving on lets look at the fight at the airplane with Jock:

16mm/BD/WOWOW

Jock's skin tone looks different in each but look at the sky, yellow in the 16mm and BD but normal blue in the WOWOW. Again 16 is the closest to the BD.

Let take a grand tour for the next one. Luckily the scene of Indy teaching lines up between the 16 and 35. I can't find my laserdisc (widescreen and P&S) captures at this time but here is everything else:

16mm/35mm/BD/WOWOW/"European" H.264 Master/DVD

Again the 16mm mostly matches with the BD. The light from the windows is yellow and the chalkboard is slightly green.  All other transfers pretty much line up.

Ok, so maybe now someone is thinking that 16mm is too extreme. Too yellow. Too over exposed. A bad source to look at. So lets look at the 35mm.

35mm/BD/WOWOW

35mm is very yellow, BD is the best match since it is slightly yellower then the WOWOW but its very close.

35mm/BD/WOWOW

35mm is very yellow, BD is the best match since the desert is more yellow then the red in the WOWOW.

35mm is very yellow, BD is the best match since the plane is more yellow then red in the WOWOW.

35mm is very yellow, BD is the best match since the plane is more yellow then red in the WOWOW. I'd like to point out I keep posting this horrible symbol because like the flags in the BD its orange.

The one interesting pic is this:

Where the 35mm is half way between the BD and WOWOW. The BD is all orange, the WOWOW is mostly red with a little orange in the middle and the 35mm is mostly orange with the edges being red.

All of this picture evidence points to one fact, that Raiders had a yellow/gold tint on release. In fact if we take the pics of the 16mm and 35mm at face value (and we don't given the opening disclaimer) the BD did not go far enough in the yellow tint. Imagine the fit people would of thrown if the did the yellow to that extreme.

And getting back to Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull. In many interviews (like American Cinematographer) with DP Janusz Kaminski, he said he went to great lengths to study Douglas Slocombe's (the dp of the original 3) style and look. He looked at many prints of Raiders and went to great lengths to match Raiders in style, details and color. Its a testament to his work that KOTCS look nothing like his normal style. No massive grain, no breaking the frame, its a very classic style with bright colors and high contrast. Janusz's cinematography is the best part of KOTCS. My point is he looked at Raiders many time and duplicated its coloring. KOTCS is colored to look like Raiders not the other way around. 

One could argue that the yellow tinting on the BD was done poorly. That it was done is such a way that it punched the reds too orange. After all red and yellow equal orange. We have seen that kind of bad color timing recently on The Good, The Bad and the Ugly 4K BD. Were the excessive levels of yellow created a green tint on everything. That color timing was proven false when the IB tech print was seen. The yellow was right but the green was wrong. The debate on how much orange is one worth having but its worth noting that the 35mm does have an orange tint in a lot of places.

And speaking of TGTBATU, I know were this mistrust comes from as we have seen many, many screw ups before. And many people around here have fixed those mistakes. As h_h pointed out Star Wars, scanned from the negative, doesn't look like a release print. Road Warrior/Mad Max 2 scanned from the negative, doesn't look like a release print. Conan The Barbarian scanned from the negative, doesn't look like a release print. The Matrix is an entire entry on its own. But why redo Raiders and not the others? Why spend the time on Raiders at all? Why do it in a specific way that tends towards the pics of the 16 and 35 and the style at the time? Is that coincidence?

At the end of the day I love the WOWOW. I have a copy of it myself and I have watched many times. As a scan its superior to the BD in detail. As for the color I think it most likely looks like the Neg or an IP just like the LD, DVD and European master. I think the BD was an honest attempt to recreate the look of a release print, faults and all. The only way this will be decided is with scanned a 35mm print. I have been searching awhile and never found a good one or one at a reasonable price. If someone here can get a print, get it scanned and give me a copy that proves what I just said was wrong. I will happily thank that person for proving me wrong. Gladly. Until then I believe that Raiders is suppose to have more yellow then the WOWOW based on the evidence at hand.

Well, I'm right there with h_h (deja vu with the Indy blu-ray thread). The DVDs and WOWOW transfers are mostly likely what the negative looks like, which admittedly looks great. That doesn't mean that is what a release print looks like. That kind of chemical color timing was popular in the early 80s. A lot of films were push to golden/yellow hues. I have seen plenty of 35mm prints from the 80s that have that look. Frankly, even though the BD transfer doesn't have the detail of the WOWOW, I admire that they went the extra mile to recreate the look of a release print.

People see to be ignoring the conversations that occurred earlier in this thread but here is the 35mm low fade H_H was talking about:

or from a different print:

or from a vintage 16mm print (I have pics from another print I have to find):

Hell, Temple had very similar color timing that was not duplicated in the DVD, HDTV or the BDs. From a 70mm print:

vs the BD:

And a quick and dirty regrade to see what the BD would look like if adjusted to the 70mm:

But I guess this won't be decide till someone gets a Raiders print and scans it. Which is something I would love.