While I really enjoyed it, I think it can be off putting to have 2 subplots going on on top of the main plot. Some of the character arcs, story details and themes tend to get lost in the intercutting. Everything felt a bit more cohesive on a second viewing.
I feel like they need more villains for the third film. Possibly introduce the Knights of Ren? Unless they were Snoke’s guards. I feel the ending will be the rebellion and the First Order merging, instead of being destroyed, as a force for peace in the universe. I feel like it’s pretty much the only way it can be ended without feeling too derivative.
Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.
dahmage said:
Luke’s final version and what is generally accepted as the true version has Luke go in to read kylo Ren’s mind. After seeing kylo rens darkness he has what he describes as a very brief moment of thinking that it would be better to kill him. And without thinking ignited his lightsaber and immediately, immediately regretted that decision.
No, again, it makes no sense. Luke in ROTJ was struggling between whether to kill Vader or redeem him, and yes, it came to that point where he was tempted to really finish Vader off, but he came to senses to not fall for the bait. So all these years later, that lesson he learned was for nothing…?I don’t get all these complaints that boil down to “Luke would never do that” (including disappearing in the first place) when we basically saw nothing that happened between the end of ROTJ and TFA/TLJ. People change, especially those that have suffered trauma. It’s the same complaint about Han that makes no sense either.
Sorry, but in movies you don’t change people’s characters off-screen unless it’s logical. Luke growing wiser and more confident between TESB and ROTJ is logical. Luke going from believing in his Nazi father to contemplating his nephews murder is not. Such a change of character needs to be explained more thoroughly. Given that so many don’t buy the way Luke behaves, I think it’s clear this part of the plot is underdeveloped.
I think his rash behavior in the OT and the fact that what he saw in Ben’s mind was traumatic would cause him to make the mistake of briefly “acting on instinct”. Doesn’t seem out of the realm of possibility. Rey had to learn these hard truths about both Luke and Kylo.
Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.
I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:
Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with FinnOr surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with SnokeThe Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.
There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.
Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.
Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.
The next is destroying the past and moving forward:
Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s LightsaberKylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.
Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.
The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?
The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.
The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then.
I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.
Let me know if I missed anything.
Pretty good I think, except you mean Rey and Luke, not kylo and Luke.
I did see your comment about the robes and looked for it when I was next in the theater. But I felt like there was another time that Luke wore those robes. Didn’t he have them on when he was training Rey? Or some other scene in between.
When he goes to burn down the temple.
You’re right but those events could’ve happened in tandem. Maybe it’s a stretch though.
Novus_Opiate said:
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.Yeah I get that; what I don’t get is why it even came to that point to begin with? I mean we have to consider, it wasn’t simply a tempting thought, but those thoughts actually compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and ignite it! That’s so irrational of Luke. Sure, I bet killing Kylo is a thought would had crossed anyone’s mind if they learned Kylo’s taint of the darkside, but this is Luke here. I’d buy Luke was outside of Kylo’s hut, stewing back and forth of what to do and how to confront him; however again, it’s beyond me to think this temptation compelled Luke to pull out his lightsaber and stop himself from committing the murder at the last second.
Maybe what he saw in Kylo’s mind was traumatic and like Luke said “acted on instinct”. Might’ve been better to show what Luke saw.
The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.
I’m focusing on this because to me, the main story of this film centers around this flashback between Kylo and Luke. The reason I think the Luke complaints are valid are because it’s absolutely beyond me to think Luke went from the leap of, “Kylo is having dark thoughts” to "I need to kill him RIGHT NOW!"
Luke over the course of three films learned something super important: patience. Luke started out impulsive and impatient, but in ROTJ, he is calm and collected, more wiser. So why in the world is Luke all of a sudden this trigger-saber-happy Jedi master? I’m not even saying Luke should be flawless. I was going to accept that Luke just sucks as a teacher and messed up Kylo’s training. But instead, his mistake was… being impulsive? Yeah yeah, Luke finally felt shame at the last moment, but my goodness, I can’t even fathom Luke’s first option was to march to Kylo’s room, ready to strike with his ignited saber. As far as we know, Kylo hadn’t even done anything bad beyond just having dark thoughts. Luke should be so much wiser to deal with this kind of stuff because he himself did feel the tempt of the darkside in ROTJ, something that Obi-Wan never did and hence why Luke was miles better than most Jedi before him. Luke should be the best person to help Kylo work through it. And fine, if not, Luke should had been figuring options A, B, and C, diving deeper into the mysteries of the Force in an attempt to bring Kylo back to the light. Instead he follows the same exact path of Yoda, which should had been a lesson in of itself to begin with to NOT DO.This is why I think the complaints are warranted.
He says the temptation came over him but for a brief moment. He wasn’t going to actually do it.
It might be a stretch but it seems the Superman Leia moment is a call back to Luke on the verge of death in the Wampa cave reaching out in desperation for his light saber to save his own life. He is in a coma of sorts after that experience as well. Still think the moment could’ve been done a lot better though.
Hopefully this will not go ignored as I am going to make my best attempt to break down the film.
I think The Last Jedi, more so than any other film in the series, relies on parallel themes. First the theme of legends and how holding someone or yourself at a high standard only leads to disappointment and failure:
Kylo with Luke
Poe with Holdo
Rose with Finn
Or surpassing you former idol:
“We are what they grow beyond” as Yoda said.
Finn with Phasma
Kylo with Snoke
The Luke complaints in my opinion are unrealistic. Do you think a human being is incapable of making a mistake like Luke did? The whole point of the film is that no one, even a legend, is incapable of mistakes. Someone as great as Obi Wan failed with Anakin. Not a huge stretch of the imagination to me.
There have been a lot of complaints about Snoke as well. He gets no more or less a back story than Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. He is a victim of his own arrogance. Kylo, who couldn’t win a fight with Snoke one on one defeats him the only way he can, by exploiting a character flaw. He thought he was so powerful and knew Kylo so well. He underestimated him because Snoke believed his own myth. He closed his eyes and looked into Kylo’s mind but couldn’t see what was happening right in front of him.
Poe was so disappointed and distrusting of Holdo he refused to hear her reasoning before calling her a traitor and committing mutiny because she was famous and he held her to an unrealistic standard.
Finn’s ambivalence to the cause is reflected through his willingness to run away at the beginning in the escape pod scene. Rose as a result feels betrayed by her “legend” image of “the Finn”. The hard truths of the moral ambivalence of Canto Bight and DJ’s betrayal lead into Finn’s defeat of Phasma and embrace of the name “rebel scum”. These the beginnings of his embrace of the rebel cause ending with his willingness to sacrifice his life to save everyone.
The next is destroying the past and moving forward:
Kylo’s mask
Rey’s parents
The Jedi Tree
Anakin’s Lightsaber
Kylo destroys his mask to move away from Vader idolotry and become his own person.
Rey thought her parent’s identity would give her meaning or the fans thought being a Skywalker would give her a place in the Saga.
The destruction of the tree is a symbol of the end of the old Jedi order and a move away from the religious aspects of the black and white Jedi vs Sith. As Luke says why should a religion take ownership of something as universal as the force?
The final scene between Kylo and Luke is an act of pacifism. He has no intention of killing Kylo. Like Obi Wan in A New Hope he sacrifices his life against a failed apprentice to save the others and “the last jedi”.
The two suns aren’t merely a call back but an emotional parrallel. In A New Hope he was a farm boy ready for something greater and now he is a Jedi Master in the same place he was then. “Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter”
I wrote this in a past post but I don’t think anyone payed attention. A detail I caught at the beginning of the film is when Rey hands Luke the lightsaber he’s wearing white robes. Luke then returns to his hut then puts them up in a box. We do not see him wearing this until near the end. It seems he was ready to die at the beginning of the film and Rey interrupted him.
Let me know if I missed anything.
Not sure if anyone caught this, but at the beginning of the film Luke is wearing a ceremonial white robe. Then, when Rey shows up he puts it away in a box and is wearing greyish robes. He is wearing these white robes again in the final scene. He was planning to die at the beginning of the film but was interrupted by Rey it seems.
https://www.inverse.com/article/25402-star-wars-a-new-hope-original-2017-4k
Just read this today. This could be Mike’s work or it could be a Special Edition version.
Thanks Mallwalker and thanks especially to Harmy and Poita.
I sent you a PM.
Did this ever make it on to usenet? I can’t seem to find it.