Nien Nunb

CatBus said:

MonkeyLizard10 said:

One thing though is that plenty of home video releases are NOT the pinnacle of image quality.

Absolutely. And a corollary argument that could be made is, even IF you accepted that Lucasfilm could release the original trilogy, would you actually want them to? Because Lucasfilm has been fucking up the trilogy on home video since there was home video to fuck it up on. Don’t make me whip out the four-eyed stormtrooper again!

I am of the opinion that even if a miracle happened and they made their best effort for a modern home video release of the original trilogy, it would still only be good in terms of supplying better raw materials for fan preservations. But something you could just watch straight? Unlikely. It would have 93 audio, 81 crawl, heavy DNR, and some dreadful color correction, and that’s your best-case scenario.

Part of waiting for copyright expiration for an official release (other than I won’t be around to see it) is that some shoestring public domain operation like Laserlight could release it, and they can’t afford all the video processing required to mess it up.

I wouldn’t necessarily consider the '81 crawl a guarantee considering Lucasfilm went out of their way to splice the '77 crawl into the GOUT DVD when everything else about the release was so minimal effort that they really could have just left it as is. Everything else sounds about right tho. I think any theoretical release from Disney/Lucasfilm would have the '77 crawl at minimum just because they know that’s the #1 thing people are going to bitch about.

CatBus said:

I’ll be that guy. Because, in many ways, I AM that guy.
…

Wow, that was quite a long read but I agree with pretty much all of it. Anyway, here’s my novel:

The issue here wasn’t so much as to whether or not 4K77 met the quality standards of this particular individual, it was that this person pretty much went out of their way to discredit any notion of there ever being any way to watch the original cuts at all in any respectable quality and when confronted with any conflicting evidence or contrarian suggestions, he would act as if I was bullshitting him that any kind of 35mm based fan preservation existed or that such an effort was even possible until I pounded him over the head with screenshots and video clips. He tried to dismiss as “laserdisc upscales” until I finally posted a link to the actual project page. He still went out of his way to pick apart anything he could about it such as select frames from the Blu-ray having to be used as fill-ins, just so he could hold onto and push the idea that the original cuts are lost forever in any kind of watchable quality. He didn’t seem to care one way or the other as to whether or not the original versions are ever available in any capacity of if 4K77 looked good or not, he just seemed to enjoy rubbing salt into the wounds of people who do care by saying that it will never happen and that they are gone forever. He’s one of those people. He wanted to discredit fan efforts in any way that he could because it didn’t fit with his narrative.

The originating comment that I first replied to was in response to a speculative thread about the likelihood of whether or not Disney/Lucasfilm would ever actually release high quality restorations of the original cuts in any capacity (still not holding my breath on that one) and this person chimed in with a rehash of the official Lucasfilm “the original versions no longer physically exist” jargon that we’ve been fed for years, arguing that there is no usable source material anywhere on earth that could possibly ever be used to restore these versions to an acceptable, modern level of quality and that we were forever stuck with VHS and laserdisc transfers as our only option. It just so happened that I was actually watching 4K77 at the time this popped up in my feed so I took a picture with my phone of the pre SE version of the scene were Han is cornered by stormtroopers while it was playing on my 80" TV, basically just to show that it is in fact possible to watch something better than VHS. I explained that this was a 4K fan preservation sourced predominantly from 35mm release print materials and that while not perfect or “end all, be all” by any means, It still demonstrates that a competent restoration can be done of these films given the right tools, time, dedication and availability of materials. I also stated that Lucasfilm almost certainly has better resources to do this with were they ever to embark on a restoration themselves.

These 2 guys were just not having it. As the conversation went on, I don’t think either of them were even interested in what the quality of 4K77 was like, they just wanted to discredit any idea I suggested of an official restoration ever being possible. The first guy suggested I was watching a VHS even though I was quite clear about what it was in my comment. My phone camera may not be top of the line but it is quite clear from looking at my pic that it was no VHS. After a brief back and forth, the first guy blocked me after I shot down all of his incorrect assumptions and he ran out of condescending remarks to come at me with. The 2nd guy to reply to me was actually the poster of the originating comment that I responded to. Basically the same deal. The originals are gone forever, Rah Rah Rah. There will never be anything better available than VHS or laserdisc, Rah Rah Rah. The same exchange as the first guy pretty much follows. I show him screen grabs of 4K77 to which he tries to dismiss as laserdisc upscales, followed by a bunch of condescending remarks that I’m basically and idiot and have no idea what I’m talking about and he knows better becuase he worked in the industry, Rah Rah Rah. I then send him clip after clip of 4K77 followed by a link to the project page, and he still continues on with the narrative that 4K77 is nothing and that Lucasfilm would never be able to do better than the existing Laserdiscs or VHS. That any usable elements are gone or destroyed forever.

I’ve encountered many people like this from within the Star Wars fandom which is why I seldom even participate in discussions of the franchise outside of this forum. These are the type of people who act like if you don’t worship George Lucas, kiss his butt at all times and accept everything he’s ever said or done unequivocally then you’re a bad fan. That we’re wrong for wanting the option to watch anything other than whatever George’s preferred flavor of the month version is.

I just don’t get people who want to argue endlessly that it’s impossible to restore the original versions of the films and when I present them with dozens of screengrabs and video clips of the incredible fan restorations discussed at length here, they still try and act like I have no idea what I’m talking about. Some *sshat in a Star Wars group on facebook kept deflecting to every technicality he could possibly grasp at in order to discredit all of these amazing fan preservations and make his point that no suitable source material exists anywhere to ever produce any sort of passably high quality restoration of these films and that they were essentially lost forever. I explained to both of these people (there were 2 until I was blocked by the first one) that fan restorations of this nature, while not perfact, are still leaps and bounds better than any official laserdisc or DVD that Lucasfilm has released up to this point. If Lucasfilm themselves were ever to theoretically embark on an official restoration, they undoubtedly would have access to far superior source elements than we do. This dude kept claiming he’s worked in the industry so somehow that’s supposed to mean he automatically knows everything there is to know and I’m just some idiot. I stopped taking him seriously when he tried to compare the resolution of a laserdisc master to 35mm film and make some kind of aimless comparison that the official laserdisc was somehow superior in resolution to 4K77.

It blows my mind how anyone can watch a clip of 4K77 and not even be mildly impressed, or hilariously try to claim it’s an upscale of a laserdisc.

SpacemanDoug said:

Nien Nunb said:

Class316 said:

Doctor M said:

IncrediStudios said:

You guys seem to be interested in the “snow cones” censorship part of the forum. Well, here is a comparison of both the 3D blu-ray & the 2009 blu-ray:

As you can clearly see, the censored version (right) loses the detail of the snow cones as seen on the uncensored version (left).

If you can’t see the image, go here: https://imgur.io/a/QhGfpiY

Are the snow cones really censored? What am I seeing that they don’t want me to see there?

CloakedDragon97 said:

Why were the snow cones changed?

My guess on that, they didn’t want it to look like someone pissed on those cones.

I’d hesitate to call this actual censorship. Seems like some kind of rendering error or something. If it was really meant to be censored then why were they still including the original DVD in combo packs with the initial Blu-ray release and why would the texturing return in the 3D release which came AFTER the initial Blu-ray? I’m pretty sure this is some sort of mistake. When Disney intentionally alters something, they are pretty consistent about it. Those cones look like unfinished animation. If they were concerned about them looking peed on then why not just change the color altogether? The dialogue makes it quite clear that they are snow cones so why would they intentionally remove the obvious snow texturing?.

That’s what I was thinking too, a literal error

It reminds me of that shot in Toy Story 3 where they show home movie footage of Andy as a younger child and the headboard of his bed is intersecting with the wall in the actual film but in the trailer, the error is not present.

Class316 said:

Doctor M said:

IncrediStudios said:

You guys seem to be interested in the “snow cones” censorship part of the forum. Well, here is a comparison of both the 3D blu-ray & the 2009 blu-ray:

As you can clearly see, the censored version (right) loses the detail of the snow cones as seen on the uncensored version (left).

If you can’t see the image, go here: https://imgur.io/a/QhGfpiY

Are the snow cones really censored? What am I seeing that they don’t want me to see there?

CloakedDragon97 said:

Why were the snow cones changed?

My guess on that, they didn’t want it to look like someone pissed on those cones.

I’d hesitate to call this actual censorship. Seems like some kind of rendering error or something. If it was really meant to be censored then why were they still including the original DVD in combo packs with the initial Blu-ray release and why would the texturing return in the 3D release which came AFTER the initial Blu-ray? I’m pretty sure this is some sort of mistake. When Disney intentionally alters something, they are pretty consistent about it. Those cones look like unfinished animation. If they were concerned about them looking peed on then why not just change the color altogether? The dialogue makes it quite clear that they are snow cones so why would they intentionally remove the obvious snow texturing?.

captainsolo said:
The Criterion release is mastered from MGM’s Tech IB print, which then MGM did their own movie only version of twice over. Then for the Ultimate Oz set they remastered it in CAV and added their own extras. The initial DVD release is a port of this master and I believe it was the subsequent remastering for the DVD boxset reissue in 2005-2006 or so that introduced the error in the mono mix.

It was the 1998 restoration that introduced the dialogue error which has carried over into every other release since. This restoration was re-released theatrically and on DVD in 1999. The '98 was the last major photochemical restoration done before 2005.

Darth telly said:

Well Disney is the embodiment of evil.

Think about it tho. What reason would Disney really have to dick around with a film who’s production they had no involvement with? And to add something as meaningless and trivial as Greedo saying Macklunkey? That is something that could have only happened under Lucas. There isn’t one instance I can think of where a film studio has ever randomly inserted new material into someone else’s film for no real reason like that.

Disney couldn’t care less about the original 6 films. They bought Lucasfilm so they could produce new material and exploit the franchise’s marketing potential to the maximum. Can you imagine someone at Disney going “You know what? We really should add a new shot into the original Star Wars film where Greedo says Macklunkey!”?

Same deal with Fox. Lucas still had total control over Lucasfilm by that point. There is no way he would let someone else add random crap to his films without his consent. Every inane change you have ever seen in a Star Wars film was done under the supervision of George Lucas. That is the whole reason the original unaltered versions aren’t available, because George Lucas doesn’t want them to be.

George Lucas is the only one OCD enough to make such inane, arbitrary changes to these films with every video release. Do you honestly think Disney or any other studio would be bothered enough to mess around with such trivial, incidental things in someone else’s movie of which they didn’t even produce? Disney have much more productive things to do as a comapny than continue on with some bizarre tradition that George Lucas has made out of his own insecurity with the quality of his films.

Continually adding things to old films is not a practice most film studios would typically engage in. Usually any kind of digital tinkering done by a studio for some video release is to fix some sort of visual effects gaffe or continuity thing that most people wouldn’t have noticed until it was pointed out. No one but Lucas would think to add something as nonsensical as Greedo saying “Macklunkey”.

When the 2-Disc LE “GOUT” DVDs came out, I bought the full screen bonus disc on ebay just so the spine would match all of the others. It is exactly the same disc that was in the widescreen box set when I had it.

The bonus material on every Lucasfilm DVD release was universally the same no matter if the main presentation was widescreen or full screen. Sometimes the disc art might even say widescreen or whatever, but none of the bonus content ever differed in aspect ratio. Even the 2006 GOUT discs which were sourced from laserdisc masters and were considered “bonus material” were still in non-anamorphic letterbox even if you bought the full screen DVDs.

Luke45 said:

Nien Nunb said:

Luke45 said:

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Skywalker-Complete-Blu-ray/dp/B082WXD4ZH/ref=sr_1_2?crid=Z7D63S6IY4KB&dchild=1&keywords=star+wars+complete+saga+blu-ray&qid=1612713396&sprefix=star+wars+comple%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-2

Anyone know if this 2019 18 disc Blu-ray set has the new scans with the color correction?

I own this set. It is 100% without a doubt the same versions that appear on Disney+, minus the 4k and DNR of course. These are NOT the same oversaturated, black crushed and blown out versions that appeared on Blu-ray in 2011. All 9 films have the current black Lucasfilm logo wich first appeared in front of The Force Awakens.

I didn’t care enough about the 4k to shell out for that mega set at Best buy, but I had some Christmas money and Amazon credit to blow and $90 didn’t seem terrible for this so I got it just so I could have the newest transfers and be rid of that 2011 mess. $10 a film isn’t too bad for Disney. Even at 1080p, these blow the 2011 discs out of the water.

These aren’t perfect by any means, but the flaws are far more tolerable to me than the wretched looking 2011 masters with cartoon like color timing.

Thank you so much. So just to verify, no pink blasts??

No. Those were an artifact of the piss poor color correction that was done for the 2004 masters which carried over into 2011. When you watch these it is very obvious they are from a different scan altogether. At 1080p, These still have more image detail than the 2011 discs.

Luke45 said:

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Skywalker-Complete-Blu-ray/dp/B082WXD4ZH/ref=sr_1_2?crid=Z7D63S6IY4KB&dchild=1&keywords=star+wars+complete+saga+blu-ray&qid=1612713396&sprefix=star+wars+comple%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-2

Anyone know if this 2019 18 disc Blu-ray set has the new scans with the color correction?

I own this set. It is 100% without a doubt the same versions that appear on Disney+, minus the 4k and DNR of course. These are NOT the same oversaturated, black crushed and blown out versions that appeared on Blu-ray in 2011. All 9 films have the current black Lucasfilm logo wich first appeared in front of The Force Awakens.

I didn’t care enough about the 4k to shell out for that mega set at Best buy, but I had some Christmas money and Amazon credit to blow and $90 didn’t seem terrible for this so I got it just so I could have the newest transfers and be rid of that 2011 mess. $10 a film isn’t too bad for Disney. Even at 1080p, these blow the 2011 discs out of the water.

These aren’t perfect by any means, but the flaws are far more tolerable to me than the wretched looking 2011 masters with cartoon like color timing.

DeckardKatarn said:
I could be wrong, but I think you’d be hard-pressed to find many, if any, Star Wars references in shows like Seinfeld and Friends.

Michael Ward said:
it didn’t become mind blowingly huge again until The Phantom Menace.

From my own memory as a 9 year old in 1997, the Special Editions and all of the hype surrounding the 20th anniversary were the point at which Star Wars became mind blowingly huge again. Remember, they had to re-establish the Star Wars brand as a viable marketing behemoth like it had been in it’s heyday in order to get the hype train rolling for the prequels. I knew what Star Wars was as a child but to me in the early 90s it was just some forgotten old relic that old people watched marathons of on USA. I had a few of the vintage toys from random garage sales and thrift stores and I would be like “look, it’s that shiny gold robot guy from that old movie they show on TV all the time!”. Basically from the time I was born to about 1994, Star Wars to me was just “some old movie”. 1995 was when things really started to pick back up again with the new toy line and by 1997, You could find all manner of Star Wars merchandise in any department store like it was 1977 again. lunchboxes, backpacks, Pencil cases, underwear, toothpaste. You name it I had it.

For me, 1997 was the year that Star Wars came BACK with a vengeance! It was everywhere and EVERYONE was talking about it again. Oprah freaking Winfrey had her own special devoted to the Special Edition hype. That era to me as a child of the 90s is what I would have imagined it was like for children of the 70s growing up when the original film was released. If it weren’t for the '97 SEs and 20th Anniversary hype I wouldn’t have likely given a rat’s ass about the Phantom Menace as a child, It would have been just another movie to me. I was only hyped for it after having become a die hard Star Wars nerd 2 years before with the Special Edition theatrical re-releases, getting the '95 “Faces” VHS Trilogy for my Birthday and the Power of the Force toy line. All of the hype and anticipation for the prequels was based around the '97 SEs having firmly re-established Star Wars as a major pop culture phenomenon.

I certainly don’t love what has happened to the original versions of the films since the release of the Special Editions, but the hype around The Phantom Menace wouldn’t have been what it was without the mid 90s rebirth that began with the Special Editions. That is when the 2nd coming of Star Wars truly began.

Non anamorphic DVDs were of little consequence to me until I bought a Widescreen TV, which was literally within the same month after the GOUT DVDs were released. I knew what anamorphic enhancement was but it wasn’t that big a deal to me one way or another when I was watching DVDs on a CRT television. I did have a portable DVD player that had no zoom option on it though so it was a pain in the ass when I tried to watch a letterbox DVD on that.

There never was any pan & scan release of the GOUT transfers themselves since they were considered “bonus features”. Even on the full screen DVDs which feature the 2004 version in pan & scan, the 2nd disc with the GOUT on it is still letterbox widescreen.

That set from ebay is absolutely not official, I can tell you that for sure. Bootlegs like this are all over ebay. Infact, Disney related DVDs and Blu-rays tend to be the most widely bootlegged things I have ever come across. I would not at all recommend that you buy that. Also yes, The set that I posted a link to should have the newest transfers which are sourced from the same master as the 4k discs just downscaled to 1080p.

The back of that set from ebay doesn’t look like anything Disney/Fox would put out, and it’s being sold far too cheap, not to mention it’s unavailability from any legitimate retail site like Amazon. The previous set from Fox with only the first 6 films ran around $70-$80 in stores. Also, Disney loves their money. There is no way they would release a budget priced no frills set at such a low price point within the same year that they just put out a huge box set with bells & whistles. They aren’t the type of company known to do stuff like that.

Also, being that it is a counterfeit product I can almost guarantee that it does NOT feature the newest transfers, which is a moot point anyway.

I am reasonably sure that is a counterfeit product, especially considering the price. It does not correspond with the packaging and layout of any official release that I am aware of. I would stay clear of it.

If you want all of the films on Blu-ray in a box set as inexpensively as possible with the latest remasters then I would recommend this set, which runs around $80-$90.

https://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Skywalker-Complete-Blu-ray/dp/B082WXD4ZH/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=star+wars+box+set&link_code=qs&qid=1608076724&sourceid=Mozilla-search&sr=8-3&tag=mozilla-20

JadedSkywalker said:

Funny thing even when the Episode IV title was old news and it had A New Hope at the beginning the film was still just called Star Wars. I don’t remember a single person calling it a new hope. I even have VHS copies and Laserdiscs where it just says Star Wars. The standee displays and advertising was for Star Wars.

Yeah, Even as late as the 1997 SE campaign it was still being referred to and marketed as just Star Wars. I think the 1995 “Faces” VHS has A New Hope on the spine in tiny lettering underneath Star Wars in bold, but it wasn’t until the 2000 VHS re-release of the SEs (Which were no longer being branded as Special Editions) that the original film began to be marketed as Episode IV: A New Hope. It was also during the prequel era that fans and joe schmoes started referring to the film in casual conversation as A New Hope.

It was also around 2000 that the original versions disappeared entirely from the market, to the point that even video rental chains were being forced to carry the SE only when many stores had previously carried both up until then. This was the “Order 66” for the original versions being available anywhere from that point on, as it was at this point in time when a concentrated effort had been made by Lucasfilm to “wipe out” all remnants of the original versions from public accessibility.

alloneword said:
The “Coming Summer 1990” is not included on the full screen R1 DVD box set.

It’s not in the 2002 Widescreen DVD set either. V1 or V2 (the original pressings of Part II and III had significant framing issues that were later fixed). It was restored for the first time on a video release (to my knowledge) on the 25th anniversary Blu-ray and DVD releases form 2011.

As a teenager I was a pretty die hard BTTF nerd for awhile after the first DVD set came out and I only came to know of the existence of the Summer 1990 tag from reading it on IMDB in the “alternate versions” section. I remember being impressed that it was restored for the Blu-ray. I had a whole bunch of computer printed BTTF crap hung all over my bedroom walls as a kid. I still have a book case with some of those images still taped to the side of it that I never bothered to remove, lol.

Ashdogg said:

I seem to remember it being on the 1995 VHS. Are you sure?

This was absolutely a 2004 change. It was jarring to see it for the first time on DVD if you knew the movie like the back of your hand as I did at the time.

You also have to keep in mind, most of the major visual effects changes from 1997 and onward came in waves. They didn’t just go in and change 1 random thing here or there every few years, there was a whole new set of changes that usually came with the introduction of the films appearing on a new video format.

I grew up during the mid 1990’s Star Wars Renaissance so as a young kid this era was for me what 1977-1983 was for the generation before me. In my lifetime thus far, this was the most exciting time to be a Star Wars fan. I would often watch the films casually when they aired on Sci-Fi or whatever in the earlier 90s, but the Special Edition campaign and all of the hype surrounding it was what turned me into a ride or die Star Wars nerd for the rest of my childhood. I saw all 3 Special Editions in the theater as they were released and My mom bought me the Faces box set for my 9th Birthday in March of 1997. I’m honestly surprised that I even got the SE VHS Trilogy the following Christmas, as my parents were generally the type who didn’t see the point of owning more than one version of the same movie in the pre DVD era.

I remember for several years into the late 90s the Faces tapes were still readily available at a lot of places so I proudly displayed both on my shelf and never really thought much more into it until sometime in 2000 whenever the first re-release of the SEs came out on VHS with no mention of them being the SE on the box. It was during this time that I noticed all video rental chains which had previously stocked both versions in mass quantities were now only stocking the SE exclusively.

SilverWook said:

Not to get too far off topic, bur what was it like going to an indoor theater with under current circumstances?

I’ve been going a lot since they reopened and from what I understand they are doing decent business all things considered, but nowhere near the crowd levels pre-COVID when current movies were being released. They do heavily encourage social distancing, but 90% of the time there is little to no one to distance from. Most of the movies I’ve been going to see have had 2 to 3 other people in the auditorium at max. Tickets are only $2 also, so I’ve been seeing a whole bunch of stuff. Jurassic Park, Grease, The Wizard of Oz, Indiana Jones Trilogy, E.T., Back To The Future, Star Wars: The Force Awakens, The Empire Strikes Back, Footloose, and several other good ones coming.

Of the 2 theaters closest to me, this one has the more classy old timey vibe with the red curtains and velvet trimming in the auditoriums and stuff, where as the other one was just recently remodeled and is ultra modern and sleek looking. Also, the other theater just re-closed, but they had less enticing prices and an underwhelming selection of films by comparison.

There aren’t any drive ins around me that I know of, but the theater I just saw it at is the nicest one in town.

It was the 2011 master, but It was still fun to see it again on the big screen for the 4oth anniversary.

Fated-Dualist said:

'Mr. Lucas said that to release the original versions of these films on Blu-ray was “kind of an oxymoron because the quality of the original is not very good.”

“You have to go through and do a whole restoration on it, and you have to do that digitally,” he added. “It’s a very, very expensive process to do it. So when we did the transfer to digital, we only transferred really the upgraded version.”
 

I still find it hard to imagine George saying all this with a straight face. Even he has be aware of how stupid this sounds. Despite no longer being in charge of Lucasfilm, I’m sure by now he also has to be at least somewhat aware of recent fan preservation efforts and the significant advancements that have been made since those statements, which have completely disproven his argument.