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Mrebo

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Trusted Members
Join date
20-Mar-2011
Last activity
7-Dec-2018
Posts
3,316

Post History

Post
#1249982
Topic
Rarely Talked About But Entirely Awesome Historical Figures thread
Time

Valentine McGillycuddy

Dr. McGillycuddy was a controversial pioneer of the effort to build a sustainable relationship between the United States and the Native American Indian people. He traveled to Washington to protest inhumane treatment of the Indians at Camp Robinson, the Red Cloud Agency, and blow the whistle on Indian agents and military that were exploiting Indians on western reservations. His sincerity and constructive ideas for dealing with the native people so impressed authorities he was offered the Indian Agent post at Pine Ridge, the nation’s largest reservation, a challenging assignment for a 30-year-old.

When Grover Cleveland’s Democratic administration took over the White House and ordered the Pine Ridge agent to replace his efficient Republican clerk with a Democratic appointee, McGillycuddy refused to comply and was dismissed, despite protests from both races that attested to his “effective, intelligent and just administration.”

The Doctor was fed up with “government buncombe and red tape,” He had fallen victim of Washington politics, and was escorted off of the reservation with his wife and their pair of pet buffalo.

When the Ghost Dance began appearing on Pine Ridge, the man who had replaced McGillycuddy as Pine Ridge Agent called in the U.S. Army. To this, McGillycuddy responded:

“If the Seventh-day Adventists got up on the roofs of their houses in their ascension robes to welcome the Second Coming of Christ, the whole U.S. Army is not rushed into motion.”

Post
#1249887
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

DominicCobb said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Speaking of refunds, what about the 200 Frink coins I bought? You promised there would be an online shop where I could use them to buy Frink shirts, Frink hats and Frink mugs, but there is nothing. I’m thinking about cancelling my subscription.

ALLOL

Your hoard of Frink merch isn’t that funny.

your comment makes no sense to me, but that is OK.

Filed under: Mrebo

we’re gonna need a bigger file.

I’d explain it to you but it’s not worth it.

Try harder.

You got it covered.

I can tell that you are trying to throw a fit but it doesn’t quite seem to be working.

Interesting theory.

What’s your theory then? and for the record I actually want to know what it is that you’re getting at.

Filed under: Mrebo

Provisionally filed under: Dom

Post
#1249886
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Speaking of refunds, what about the 200 Frink coins I bought? You promised there would be an online shop where I could use them to buy Frink shirts, Frink hats and Frink mugs, but there is nothing. I’m thinking about cancelling my subscription.

ALLOL

Your hoard of Frink merch isn’t that funny.

your comment makes no sense to me, but that is OK.

Filed under: Mrebo

we’re gonna need a bigger file.

I’d explain it to you but it’s not worth it.

Try harder.

You got it covered.

I can tell that you are trying to throw a fit but it doesn’t quite seem to be working.

Interesting theory.

What’s your theory then? and for the record I actually want to know what it is that you’re getting at.

That’s what makes your responses so strange. I was making a joke about there being no website of Frink merch because you have it all. Thus you were laughing at Frank as a way of gloating. It was pretty obvious, I think. Guess this falls under sandpaper-as-toilet paper time.

Don’t know what Frink is on about. I just want a coffee mug with his mug on it.

Post
#1249882
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Speaking of refunds, what about the 200 Frink coins I bought? You promised there would be an online shop where I could use them to buy Frink shirts, Frink hats and Frink mugs, but there is nothing. I’m thinking about cancelling my subscription.

ALLOL

Your hoard of Frink merch isn’t that funny.

your comment makes no sense to me, but that is OK.

Filed under: Mrebo

we’re gonna need a bigger file.

I’d explain it to you but it’s not worth it.

Try harder.

You got it covered.

I can tell that you are trying to throw a fit but it doesn’t quite seem to be working.

Interesting theory.

Post
#1249875
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Speaking of refunds, what about the 200 Frink coins I bought? You promised there would be an online shop where I could use them to buy Frink shirts, Frink hats and Frink mugs, but there is nothing. I’m thinking about cancelling my subscription.

ALLOL

Your hoard of Frink merch isn’t that funny.

your comment makes no sense to me, but that is OK.

Filed under: Mrebo

we’re gonna need a bigger file.

I’d explain it to you but it’s not worth it.

Try harder.

You got it covered.

Post
#1249864
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

dahmage said:

Mrebo said:

dahmage said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Speaking of refunds, what about the 200 Frink coins I bought? You promised there would be an online shop where I could use them to buy Frink shirts, Frink hats and Frink mugs, but there is nothing. I’m thinking about cancelling my subscription.

ALLOL

Your hoard of Frink merch isn’t that funny.

your comment makes no sense to me, but that is OK.

Filed under: Mrebo

we’re gonna need a bigger file.

I’d explain it to you but it’s not worth it.

Post
#1249781
Topic
Going away? Post so here!
Time

TV’s Frink said:

Actually I was trying to imply I had some secret reason that I couldn’t reveal. But truth is I was reading through a couple of old threads because of recent events here (Hi Jay!) and just clicked on his profile for the hell of it to see if he had been back any time recently.

I’m a lot of things but being embarrassed about wasting my time here is certainly not one of them.

I look forward to hearing what you found out!

Post
#1249557
Topic
Ask the trans woman (aka interrogate the trans woman)
Time

flametitan said:

Mrebo said:

What I’ve seen of the public debate over transgender issues, one side is talking about sex while the other is talking about gender identity.

You made a remark about the difference between gender identity and gender expression and I think that goes to the point that we’re not just talking gender as that term has been generally used, but rather this compound term gender identity.

Do you agree? Do you think there’s a way to bridge the gap so people are not talking past each other?

You’re not entirely wrong about there being conflation between physical sex and gender identity; however, I feel like I’m missing something in this statement. Like, I think I get what your saying, but I can’t quite grasp it as firmly as I’d like to. Maybe some examples of what you mean might help.

As far as trying to bridge the gap so that people aren’t talking past one another, the important thing is to listen. Listen to those affected, listen to the concerns of others so that they may be properly addressed…

I hope to better grasp it myself. It seems to me that there is physical sex, there is gender, and there is gender identity. As I understand it, gender identity can manifest in any number of ways and does not depend on making physical changes nor adopting any particular gender traits. But for all of these separate concepts, we use similar or the same terminology.

As an example of what I’m getting at, today in the news is the transgender cyclist’s win. And there are many comments that the win is unfair, that males are naturally stronger, etc. On its face this denies the gender identity of an athlete. But the objectors are speaking in terms of physical sex while the cyclist and allies are speaking in terms of gender identity. Neither side wants to recognize what they other is saying, it seems to me.

Post
#1249309
Topic
Ask the trans woman (aka interrogate the trans woman)
Time

What I’ve seen of the public debate over transgender issues, one side is talking about sex while the other is talking about gender identity.

You made a remark about the difference between gender identity and gender expression and I think that goes to the point that we’re not just talking gender as that term has been generally used, but rather this compound term gender identity.

Do you agree? Do you think there’s a way to bridge the gap so people are not talking past each other?

Post
#1249217
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

CatBus said:

Mrebo said:

Problem for your claim of accuracy is you don’t know if any particular g-g-g gma had NA ancestry. You don’t know which ancestor.

Sure, her family story could have been wrong in part. It could have been her great-great-great grandfather, but the evidence does support the claim she made, down to the ethnicity and approximate number of generations back she specified, which lends the entire family story some credibility. But yes, which g-g-g grandparent may have been off, that is true.

I’m giving “substantial” a meaning of “sufficiently high enough to claim identity as a member of that minority.” I’m not sure what that amount is, but if you have to go 6-10 generations back to maybe find one ancestor, I don’t buy it.

See, that’s actually a point of agreement hiding in here, and why I like arguing with you. We actually do agree about stuff from time to time and it feels like a revelation every time it happens. We’re pretty polar opposite but we don’t just go to our respective corners and throw spitballs.

When you’re filling out a form and there’s checkboxes that say “check all that apply”, and you know for certain that you have approx 1/32nd ancestry from one of the listed groups, I can understand that you might want to check the corresponding box. Because you were instructed to “check all that apply” and it does apply. And the most charitable interpretation of checking that box under those circumstances is that you were being a little too literal with your instructions, without taking into account the larger context of why the boxes are there in the first place. If you recognized that there was a limit to the statistical value of particular parts of your ancestry, you would (and should) leave those boxes unchecked. You are not disavowing your ancestors, you are providing more useful data. Swallow the guilt and leave them out. Otherwise everyone would mark African because that’s where humanity started and we all have ancestors from there, right? Where that limit should be is up for some debate, and possibly a bit dependent on the purpose for which the data is being gathered, but I’d certainly place the bar higher than a single individual five generations back in almost all cases.

The less charitable interpretation involves embracing the exotic as a means to make your life’s story more interesting than it really is.

Those who write the questions probably don’t consider that anyone will answer for any percentage less than 1/8th. It’s unusual for people to go around knowing that they’re 1/32nd Native American. But with genetic testing becoming more commonplace, it’s increasingly normal. I’d suggest that people who write those questions suggest what a “significant portion” is, rather than leaving it as an exercise for the reader.

Similarly, it’s far too easy outside the checkbox scenario for people to throw around tiny fractional ancestries as if they mean something.

Nevertheless, she didn’t make it up. She and her family may be guilty of romanticizing or exoticizing, overstating the relevance of the native ancestry, but there is no indication that they were mistaken about, or lied about, or even exaggerated, the basic facts of their ancestry. This is what she was accused of, and she just shut down that line of criticism with evidence supporting her family story, exactly as it was told to her. Which is why the criticism is now moving on to other angles. And some of those new criticisms may very well be valid, and perhaps they are the criticisms that should have been made all along, but that’s another argument.

You’re right the arguments seem to shift. There appear to be three main arguments/ criticisms that should be disentangled; I will take each in turn.

  1. Whether Warren has a Native American ancestor, regardless the correlation with family history.

Accepting the DNA analysis as true, the answer is yes. This is relevant to Trump’s offer, though as discussed there is a reason he could plausibly deny payment. But this is far from the controversy about her lineage. It wasn’t actually about whether she happens to have some Native ancestor, which is all that the analysis demonstrates.

  1. Whether Warren’s family history is accurate.

I looked back at older articles and the lore wasn’t simply that there was a g-g-g gma who was part NA. Apparently there is dispute in the family but there were statements that two of Warren’s grandparents were part NA, one to an unknown but notable degree. Based on the renditions of family lore I find in older articles, Warren holding herself out as part Native American makes decent sense. But you say she knew she was AT BEST 1/32 and that she was just confused when checking boxes. The DNA doesn’t help this argument. It merely shows that some version of her family lore could be right. That members of her family told stories about NA ancestors hasn’t been in dispute, however.

  1. Whether Warren properly held herself out as Native American.

According to your telling, no it was not. You say she was just mixed up about what it meant to identify as NA. The DNA analysis makes the representation really embarrassing. Does not help at all. Any ancestor could have been maybe 10 ancestors back, making even her g-g-g gma’s claim to be NA ancestry potentially embarrassing.


I think her family stories exaggerated the amount of NA ancestry and Warren innocently (for lack of a better word) believed it. On that you’re right there are glimmers of agreement between us. I disagree she was merely confused when holding herself out as NA. I think she was mistaken about the amount (and significance) of ancestry she had.

You’ve probably made the best argument that can be made about the DNA analysis, but it just doesn’t connect to the central criticism in a meaningful way.

The chief (punintended) value of the analysis is as a piece of paper to waive around in front of people who think it’s about whether she happened to have a NA ancestor. There is the potential to reframe the debate along those lines. When people get confused about what an issue is even about, having a piece of paper declaring a supposed fact does much work.

As I said, I think this was a shrewd political move. I’ve second-guessed that a bit after there has been criticism from actual NAs about the analysis. There is the cultural appropriation angle as Warren continues to beat the drum (I could help myself, if I wanted) about possible NA ancestry.

Post
#1248998
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

CatBus said:

Mrebo said:

CatBus, your descriptions of facts can be so off-center I don’t know what to make of it. You say “Scott Brown found somewhere where she wrote it down” as if she scribbled it on the margin of a notebook one time. She was listed as a minority/Native American in academic publications and openly represented herself as part Native American.

What I meant was: She ran for US Senate and she didn’t bring it up in any public context until asked specifically about it – but neither was it a hidden family secret she kept locked away and never spoke of. She believed the family story was as true as it ultimately turned out to be. Her fault was that she believed it based solely on the word of her family, instead of seeking a second opinion, for too long.

Okay but I don’t think Brown bringing it up is remarkable.

That’s separate from whether it was dishonest or boosted her career or is terribly serious. I mainatain it was most likely an honest mistake (believing she had substantial Native ancestry) and probably only had marginally helped her career if at all.

On the subject of descriptions of facts:

You say “mistake”, I say “unsubstantiated at the time, and would have been understandable as a mistake, if it weren’t later supported by the evidence”. Both could be considered true, but mine’s more accurate.

You say “believing she had substantial Native ancestry”, I say “believing her great, great, great grandmother was at least partially Native American”. Both could be considered true, but mine’s more accurate.

Problem for your claim of accuracy is you don’t know if any particular g-g-g gma had NA ancestry. You don’t know which ancestor. I’m giving “substantial” a meaning of “sufficiently high enough to claim identity as a member of that minority.” I’m not sure what that amount is, but if you have to go 6-10 generations back to maybe find one ancestor, I don’t buy it.

And conflating that with security mismanagement at a diplomatic outpost or security mismanagement of government documents and email…not good.

You left out birth certificates. Maybe that comparison seemed a better match in your mind?

Yes, that is on the same planet. But not at all the same as security mismanagement as a public official.

Post
#1248981
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

CatBus, your descriptions of facts can be so off-center I don’t know what to make of it. You say “Scott Brown found somewhere where she wrote it down” as if she scribbled it on the margin of a notebook one time. She was listed as a minority/Native American in academic publications and openly represented herself as part Native American.

That’s separate from whether it was dishonest or boosted her career or is terribly serious. I mainatain it was most likely an honest mistake (believing she had substantial Native ancestry) and probably only had marginally helped her career if at all.

And conflating that with security mismanagement at a diplomatic outpost or security mismanagement of government documents and email…not good.

Post
#1248976
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

Handman said:

Mrebo said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/young-voters-dont-know-where-to-buy-stamps-for-absentee-ballots-2018-9

I know people love to say that people who say “kids today are lazy” are out-of-touch… but… this is just a Google search away. And you can buy them everywhere. And you can ask literally anybody. I never had a problem figuring this out with my absentee-ballot.

I’m surprised requiring a stamp is tolerated. I’d expect shrieking about poll taxes and racism. Would think postage would be prepaid, but I’ve only ever voted in person.

Post
#1248970
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

To follow-up… I can certainly understand someone deciding it’s no big deal (Warren’s questionable claims of NA heritage). But I REALLY don’t understand certain media outlets heralding that these latest DNA results prove that she was right, because they most certainly do not. Quite the contrary.

I hate left-leaning fake stuff even worse than right-leaning fake stuff, because I would like to think that the left holds itself to a higher standard.

Good to have agreement and hope others might recognize this non-partisan view. As for news outlets parroting the story, they might claim ignorance. So many erroneous law and science stories, for example, have been printed based on little more than one person’s statement or misreading of it. News outlets don’t demonstrate critical thinking skills.

I also think it’s a story many outlets want to believe for partisan reasons.

Post
#1248956
Topic
Politics 2: Electric Boogaloo
Time

I agree this isn’t something to oppose her for. Doing this DNA thing and supporting a Native casino are silly/craven/ugly political maneuvers but she wants to get this story behind her and show she’s a fighter. That’s not going to play with everyone, but you got to do different things for different constituencies.

I’ve watched Republicans eat their own too and it’s frustrating. On the other side of the coin is engaging in apologetics and ignoring bad and stupid things done by favored politicians. Hard line to walk and not appear hypocritical.

There are many good reasons to oppose Warren, including her feminist agenda, if you know what I mean.