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Mithrandir

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27-Jan-2020
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Post
#1315224
Topic
The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread
Time

RogueLeader said:

I have had a few random prequel thoughts recently…

Regarding AOTC, I have mentioned this idea before but I think one of the weirdest continuity issues between the PT and the OT is how Owen, Beru and Anakin are practically strangers when in the OT they seem to have had some kind of relationship. Yes, you could say, *“well Shmi told Owen and Beru all about Anakin and they felt like they knew him”. It just feels weird. Would it really be so weird if when Anakin and Padme go to Tatooine, they go straight to the Lars homestead? It has been 10 years since the Phantom Menace, and nothing in the movies really says that Anakin couldn’t have gone back to see his mother.

If you change the way 3PO greets them, make it like he actually recognizes them, and cut the introduction with the Lars family, there could be the implication that Anakin has been there before. Also, if you could find some Anthony Daniels dialogue where 3PO calls Padme their liberator or savior, you could get the idea across that Padme went back and freed Shmi right after TPM. Apparently in the new canon novel, Queen’s Shadow, she actually does go back to try and free her, but when she goes back she can’t find Shmi. (Why didn’t she just talk to Watto like Anakin did?). Again, I know this might be confusing for the audience, but it has been 10 years, and I think there would be enough for the audience to infer that things have just changed during that time and pick up on the context clues.

Another thought regarding ROTS, I’ve noticed that a lot of edits that cut out Yoda ever using his lightsaber seem to leave in the moment Yoda cuts the clones heads off. I can see how that might be okay since it is a very quick moment, but I feel like it kind of defeats the purpose if you’re wanting Yoda to never use a lightsaber at all. There may be an edit that does this, but if you wanted to remove that moment too, you could do something like this.

  • Have Yoda sense the beginning of the purge and drop his cane.
  • Next time we’re on Kashyyyk, have it be when the walkers are stomping around looking for Wookies at night, but change the dialogue to something like, “No sign of the Jedi, move to the east.”
  • Then, have Yoda’s escape pod scene (but maybe cut around Chewbacca…)

I think the idea would get across that Yoda just sense what was happening and got away before the clones got a chance to strike. Maybe this kind of edit would just not flow well, which is why it has never been done.

A while ago I tried and edit where all the Tattooine scenes are moved to the end of the movie, with Anakin remaining on Naboo fulfilling his duty as a Jedi, and regretting it later when after Geonosis he has some spare time, goes to Tattooine and finds out he’s arrived too late, thus having Vader’s fall be caused by repressing his love and attachment in the name of duty, and not the other way round, which is what we got today.

The eliptical timelapse implied is open, so he could have been and remained there with Padme for months. The movie would end with him departing to fight in the recently started Clone Wars, just as Owen in ANH implied, and living his wife alone in the planet.

Back then the VFX required to replace one of hayden’s hands with the mechanical arm was difficult to achieve, I think today would be doable.

EDIT: Somehow youtube authorized the video now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sELBlXUMPew

Post
#1315183
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread
Time

Many things to say about the movie, which I haven’t seen again since my first watching.

I Agree with NFT, while totally disagreeable and quite excessively compelled to say something about issues of today, TLJ felt like it came from a honest place. Yes, it has integrity, regardless of wether that integrity is placed in the easiest and most superficial approach on state-of-the-culture discussion. However, and besides Holdo, and other eye-rolling stuff like it, I think this movie puts forth the most fundamental flaw TLJ had, which is to make the trio of protagonists be together on screen, which as this movie proves and gets you wanting more of it, essentially works in an actors-chemistry level. In defense of TLJ, it had to develop the Luke-Rey thread, so had it quite difficult to solve that problem, though.

In a visual level, while palm on palm with TLJ in terms of the composition of colours and framing, this film is a relapse on some of Abrams most distinctive -and boring to me- signature: epic epic epicness and pretentiously oversized architectural scale.

While the father figure in ANH fell dead in a matter-of-fact corridor which name we -or at least, I- know for the title of a fan film, TFA’s father figure had to die in a bridge that had no utility but because it looked “kuhl” in the middle of a pit filled with darkness, with only one ray of light conveniently placed upon his head, which as well faded when he died. While you can relate to loosing someone from a heart attack in a bathroom, or some beloved one being killed in a dark alley, the whole idea of TFA was and felt more based in what’s vissually cool than what makes sense and is relatable. And these kind of underlining the symbolism up to the point of making it explicit is what makes both Abrams films feel like a itinerary made by a fan across scenarios that would-be cool to watch. Straight out of a comic book, or a Kurosawa film, and not mediated by the sui-generis filter that the Star Wars recipee is. Of course, that recipee takes from Kurosawa, but reformulates it in its own proper way, and therefore going back to the sources instead of going to what already had been elaborated from them always keeps rethreading the feeling that visually these movies delve in a register possible today and impossible yesterday, where visually Abrams makes in the ST what GL couldn’t make in the OT. And the fact that today we can on scren what yesterday we probably couldn’t is sufficient excuse to have a near-death head of state that instead of being in a controlled space beneath a bazillion locks is sitting in a weird rock chair in a colossal arena full of people whose presence doesn’t neither make sense nor is explainable in universe. Compare it to the throne room in ROTJ, which was monumental for its time yet had the scope of having a sense of intimacy; compare it to even Coruscant’s Senate Chamber, with all the symbol of being a capital of the galaxy, compare it to the Death Star’s low cieilings… the prequels, while betraying the scale of the events of OT, by being chronologically precedents within universe gave the feeling that the story closed from wide open, to open, to closed spaces as well as the story entwined itself from a a galactical conflict to a family conflict.
If on the other extreme of the rope you produce the exact same effect, the result is nonesensical, and more and more anime like, just because you now can.

This, of course, is true in our world, but within the movie Universe, which is by nature a romantic universe that longs to a long-lost past, like ObiWan says in ANH about those thousand generations, you keep making the symbolism of events bigger as you progress in the saga, while the trascendence of previous events as refered to within the saga is always backwards in scale and importance. Kylo Ren is made to look back on Vader while he achieves feats and reaches places Vader never was in back in the OT. So it was from the beginning a very difficult, near impossible position, where a guiding choice was to be made, and was never made except in a pragmatical need-to basis, from which the coherence of the saga ends up suffering:

-Anakin was the chosen one but not so much since had he been it, these movies wouldn’t make sense.
-The Empire is in ruins that look cool on screen but somehow it’s more powerful than before.
-Palpatine is to be feared because he was the big bad evil from previous installments, but somehow his return is a return on a grander scale that couldn’t possibly be explained.
-Had R2 (the most bastardized character of this trilogy) been awaken, TFA would have made not sense for most of it, but we need BB8, who is so cool.
And I could go on.

From these kind of stuff, TLJ tried to warn by making a script in which, toning down these contradictions, opened gates to other possible resolutions; if not even to consider the fact that there might not have been a resolution at all, unless TLJ was to be made EPVII and have another middle act and this resolution.

However, the “lock” that TLJ put on IX was so opressive that you could even argue TLJ was a liberating chapter not by its own postmodern dogmatisms but because it could only be precedent to this clear “fuck it, have fun and shut up” this episode is, with all its own flaws. At least to me, and albeit fast paced, it’s the most Star Warsy -OT way- episode since the OT, except for Rogue One, which in my opinion got almost all of it right.

As for character choices, Rey being a Palpatine is a turn-back on the supposed “Skywalker saga”. No matter how many fingers end up being pointed at me, I will say bloodlines matter for any human being. Based on this burgeoise-thinking “american way” that roots itself on the idea that “you and only you make your own fate” the trilogy had a very big a priori on the fact that chosen families are more important than true lineage. And while this is socially accepted from an extrinsic perspective to that of the individual who is in that position, and while I even agree with it at some point, it doesn’t, repeat, it doesn’t near closely resemble the conflict for the individual in question. For someone who doesn’t know where he/she comes from, chosen family is the only thing he/she knew, so overruling the idea by denying the identity conflict that implies not knowing where you factually come from, far from “progressive” thinking is actually a rather XIXth century position where adopted children were not even told they were adopted, in this case scenario, the explicit excuse would be “because it doesn’t matter where you come from”. Only that, as proven two centuries ago, it just doesn’t work that way on the affected person him/herself.
Transpolating, had Luke denied that conflict from the beginning, he would have been Luke Lars and no OT would have taken place.

On the other hand, this film attacks this conflict by actually giving Rey a lineage, and having her resolve on her own what she wants to be, based on what she is and what she can possibly be. The fact that she ends up being a Palpatine is a good mouth-shutter for all the Mary Sue issue the trilogy made up based on extrinsical reasons such as girl power and stuff; and at the same time an opening of the “mistery box” defined in TFA, which at least to me is the root of all the problem.

Why? Because not a single fan of the saga wasn’t prepared to know and see in a potential ST that the fellows of the OT had offspring. Luke with some woman, and Han and Leia. It’s the building of a pointless mistery box around both protagonists that defined a smock from which the writing simply never quite recovered up straight.

With Ben Solo, take up the Mandalorian for example, the last chapter where his name is revealed. Filoni doesn’t add up to the moment. The Moff speaks the line unconscious of how the line would fall on the viewer, because IN UNIVERSE it doesn’t make sens to make that underlining. Now take the hologram of Snoke in TFA: in the hands of your faaaaaathaaa…HAN…(dum dum dum) SOLO. It’s another case of epic epic epicness becoming a cartoonish shit.

With Rey, why not just from the very beginning made her Luke’s child? Why on earth would they think that would have been a duller or plain plotline? As if history wouldn’t have several cases of children of distinguished parents -whose fame and duty eclipsed their own domestical duties as parents- that end up being fuck ups or potential fuck ups. Yes, sure, not sympathetic for General Leia and Master Skywalker, but it would have been a good way to make the script, the scope of the trilogy a little smaller, and the depth a little larger.

As for OT trio, missed oportunity to have them on screen together by VII, but I have to say that besides from that, ending the Saga centered on Leia as a mentor is only regardable to again, extrinsic reasons. Leia is courage and determination, Han is conflict, Luke is wisdom. The structure of who had to be the present figure in every chapter was very very clear. And, keeping the titles I’ve put, it more or less ends up summarizing every chapter of the trilogy as it ended up being, only that there’s not a smooth transition from one to the other.

I’m sorry, but Leia dies. Of old age. It’s not Yoda’s death. While not developed, its clear within the 6 episode GL saga, that both OBK and Yoda paid in the OT the arrogance of the PT’s Jedi Order, his death in peace comes as a realisation after enduring his own failures and trying to make up for them with Luke. What was Leia’s arc in this ST, or worse, putting together OT and ST?

Princess dressed as ballsy woman gets her home-planet destroyed and her adopted family killed, not a wink 'cause she’s guts. Princess dressed as ballsy woman doesn’t know what to do with her feelings. Ballsy woman realises she’s a princess and acts on her feelings for the good rascal, ends up with him.
Cut up to VII, Princess is a ballsy woman again all development turned backward. The offspring of her feelings as a parricide, who kills the one who made her be in peace with her royal nature: not much of a wink. Parricide comes after her, her own son: not a wink… even makes joke about her hair.

IX: ballsy woman dies after not acting individually at all on most of these facts.
Conflict? Not so much. Wisdom? Jokes about hair, and Carrie Fisher branded -Not Leia’s- sarcasm. Power? Yes, power over the same type of character that got her in the OT, in this case the ST good rascal that later says “our mothers and fathers fought for”, even when two previous installments have shown not the mother of the OT trio, but both the fathers actually making the moves…closing titles, Carrie Fisher listed above Mark Hamill.
Between “the trauma” of a hand being chopped by a father, and life-lasting denial from a supposedly strong momma figure, it’s shallow to claim one is more violent than the other and that this trilogy is virtuous because we’ve left behind the age of offspring abusive traumas, just because what is denied is the explicit and densified act in a mutilation, while if it’s hypodermical it’s all good.

Complexity of the femenine character that would have been interesting to develop buried beneath this testament of nerdish and idealistic idea of strenght in women represented only as gutsiness. Wisdom that this femenine character added to the protagonist to face the Emperor? Zero. All critics to this are meant to be regarded as sexist, just in case.

So:

With the OT trio misspent across the trilogy, with Luke gone prematurely and not being able to reach the protagonist in a constant way in her last act (the whole film) of growth, regardless of Rey’s coming of age ang growth tale being more paralable to a traditional male protagonist and hence being distinctive from what Leia’s coming of age story was in the OT, not to discuss gender stuff here.

With a framing that was thought for a stand alone movie based on nostalgia (TFA), that if thought spreaded across a trilogy would simply end up -as it ended up- feeling shallow and superficial, and whose only depth could come -and came- from its metacomment nature on why we love the OT:

a) Rebels, who won but somehow still exist, vs Empire, who lost, but somehow is still strong and even stronger.

b) in fronteer worlds, while somehow if there was a natural continuation, or even a debt (considering it was the original plan for ROTJ but couldn’t be done at the time) it was to move the action again to the core worlds, or to revisit previous films worlds, NOT FOR THEIR VISUAL APPEAL but because something was to possibly happen in some of those places to tie in with previous episodes, otherwise it doesn’t make sense to have the rebels always be in a jungle planet, the jedi and protagonists always be or come from a desert planer, the empire always be strong in white -ice, salt- environments.

With hollow concepts that take the most ominous symbolisms and make them explicit as fuck even if they weren’s established as such in previous films, such as “anakin’s lightsabre”, the “map to Luke Skywalker”, the “sith fleet”, the “knights of ren”, the “helmet of kylo ren”, the “helmet of Darth Vader”, the “sith dagger” (about the sith dagger, treated as if it was a 1500 years-old-artifact made me laugh hardly, it’s just something that was lost for Rey’s age since it was used to kill her parents. In fact it can’t be older than ROTJ, since how and why would the emperor write in a dagger his location, before he even gets to that location after his supposed death in DSII. Same for “sith language”, which a young Anakin from the ass-of-the-galaxy world of Tattooine could publicly upload in a home-made droid’s memory, yet some 50 years later is pretended to be a lost prehistoric language, killing all the indiana jones feeling of “archaeology of the galaxy” into a cartoonish shit that doesn’t make sense)

With those hollow concepts acting just as titles -even the grandish titles of the films themselves- for stuff that ends up being so general, so insubstantial and incorporeal that the hollowiness reveals itself in all its emptiness, which is filled with visual whims,

With the character that should have died in VII or VIII having a supposedly significant role in this one, while having to deal with the actress death,

With a story that couldn’t move to many places other than a sort of an isolated chapter than somehow summarized a trilogy in itself,

With a protagonist trio whose chemistry had never been fleshed out in previous installments,

With a vilain came out of nowhere just for this episode, and to which all those who could have helped somehow the protagonist are dead, and wouldn’t they be dead none of the trilogy, not even the vilain’s return would have taken place,

With an infuriated and polarised fan base to please,

With Disney’s meta-threads all over the place,

With the director’s own features and weaknesses, both visually and in script,

What was this movie to be if not what it is? Just a visually appealing compromise to all factions and conditionants, in which the original lievity of a bunch of spaceships pew pew and a gang of friends is the only thing that feels home, and by being the only thing that feels right and yet being enjoyable reminds us of how important that core base was.

And as such, it is a nice coda. The saga ended, against all odds for me given how distasteful the film feels for me in the context of the saga, in VIII with Luke’s death. Had I to pick one of them and edit Force ghosts to give closure -not saying that in IX they weren’t needed- I’d just put Anakin, ObiWan and Yoda in Luke’s death scene, and bye bye.

Some word more about JJ’s approach: he needs to stop thinking movies as a spectator. If you analyse his “mistery box” TedEx talk, he is clearly reversing the roles of film-maker and film-viewer in a way that “because I liked how it make me feel, I try to replicate the feeling and not the logical structure whence my feeling was rooted”.

As if Lucas thinking -or Rowling- was:

“I have a protagonist. He’s the son of a famous knight. He doesn’t know it. Famous knight has gone bad or dead in tragic circumstances. Protagonist doesn’t know it neither. It will have impact on protagonist. In part I I’ll make the protagonist wonder about these doubts”

While JJ’s: “I remember that the movie I liked as a kid was one where the protagonist didn’t know where he came from, and in the end it didn’t matter where he came from, what mattered was the mistery surrounding the subject”.

Hence, replicating the byproduct of good plotting, and not good plotting is not a guaranteed way to go, it’s the spectacle, the effect on the viewer what he seems to like, and at times it seems he’s not able to put himself in the other side of the bar.

If you call a film The Force Awakens, you need to make a film and a script where it is clear that the Force awakens. Not a film where you disgress in all your whims about what’s visually cool, and then tie the knots between those situations that are of visual nature, and tangentially and only tangentially two or three things or lines of dialogue take place where you take the title of the film. It has to be organic. Even if the title is completely metaphoric, as The Phantom Menace, it has to be organic.

Taking a stormtrooper and making it red, and because it is red and “looks badass” you call him “sith trooper” isn’t organic, it’s hollow. It’s just a trooper, that doesn’t have a single thing to do with the Sith. Whatever the Sith are, we can argue. But if within a story that has its own concepts and logics, wether you like them or are fond of them or not, you move your plotting with the only criterium of “feels good” or “looks good” or “feels challenging”, thus subjugating that logic, no matter how poor it was, to a soup where everything is the same, that’s called cynism.

Post
#1312544
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread
Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

Mithrandir said:

I don’t think this is a film that brings a living closure to the Star Wars saga, but rather a post-mortem homage and a sort of great hits album.

Greatest hits albums are for housewives and little girls.

Yeah, “what our mothers and fathers fought for” didn’t go unnoticed. Poor old Oedipical Poe Dameron got it all clear.

Post
#1312540
Topic
<strong>The Rise Of Skywalker</strong> — Official Review and Opinions Thread
Time

Saw it last night. Theatre was emptier than whay you would expect for a Star Wars film, even in these latitudes.

It was a nice ride, plainly better than TFA, and more enjoyable than TLJ, closer to what Star Wars feels, albeit in a superficial way, since had I to put a reference to this movie, I’d claim it is a Raiders of the Lost Ark type of film.

Enjoyed the first and second act, with the caveat that it was clear from the beginning that nothing would make much sense. The end though…made it all feel hollow, made it come up that the whole film was way too fast paced, and pretentious.

I’ll write about it later in a more extensive review, but I don’t think this is a film that brings a living closure to the Star Wars saga, but rather a post-mortem homage and a sort of great hits album.

Post
#1159760
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

DominicCobb said:

Mithrandir said:

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.

It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.

But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.

I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.

Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.

First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.

The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.

Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.

I hope that makes sense.

I bookmarked this. Great stuff.

I’m definitely going to use it later in conversation with people I know irl.

The only thing I’d argue about DC’s analysis is that reading minds is not necessarily a dark side ability. Luke is shown to perform it on a sleeping Kylo when he “finds out” about the darkness in his mind.

First of all, I’m not 100% certain it is a dark side power (though it feels very creepy and invasive so probably), I was just saying that we see Kylo Ren has amassed great power in the force, and we assume from the dark side.

Second, that’s not really what Luke does, he sees Ben’s heart, which I imagine is a more opaque image, and then he has a vision of the future.

Look at Luke’s hand in the visions, he seems to be doing the same movement Kylo does when he checks someone’s cell phone

Post
#1159694
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

chyron8472 said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

Collipso, I wanted to talk about the point you raised concerning the “quick, and easy path” in comparison to how the sequel trilogy handled such a topic when it came to light and dark sides of the force.

It really does present a big thematic issue for the ST, which is that Kylo Ren seems to be taking the most grueling and challenging path possible to where he gets. On the contrary it seems Rey has some pretty smooth riding. And this definitely is an issue for me. It doesn’t seem that Rey struggles much with the Dark Side unlike Luke in the OT.

But I did want to point out something I really did like about what Johnson did with the force in episode 8 and it’s how he redefined it to be more about opposing philosophizes between the light and dark rather than just a power that tempts you. Kylo simply wants to rule the galaxy as he sees fit just like Vader in ESB, and Rey feels that is not the right way to use her powers. This feels like a more realistic depiction of what the actual light and dark side would be.

I think you’re misinterpreting that Yoda quote and those characters’ journeys.

Care to elaborate more? I’m interested in all the takes on this.

First of all it must be said that we don’t know the full story behind Snoke turning Ben to the dark. But we see the power he possesses as Kylo Ren, which is far more than anything Rey does (freeze blaster bolts, people, reads their minds, etc.). If he wanted a quick and easy way besides Luke’s training regimen to unlock some crazy powers, the dark side gave him that way. Important to note too that the dark side uses pain as a fuel.

The thing is though that when Yoda said that he was referring to Luke’s situation, and though people compare Rey to Luke their journeys are actually completely different. Luke wanted to learn the force and become a Jedi like his father. To do that he had to face Vader. The quick and easy way to defeat Vader is by using anger and hate. Like almost does this, but resists. That’s the moment he truly becomes a Jedi, when he’s able to move beyond the temptation to the dark that consumed his father and cast his weapon aside.

Rey’s story is simply not analogous. The temptation to the dark for her is just not the same. She never says that she wants to become a Jedi and learn the force. The force has always been there for her (we see it in her reflexes even before she touches the saber, just like Anakin). What she desires is connection, and for someone to show her her place . It’s not about learning how to use the force, it’s about learning in what way to use it, to what end. When Luke goes into the cave, he sees his ultimate challenge, just like Rey. But for Rey, it’s not a literal physical challenge, it’s an emotional one. The quicker and easier path for her isn’t about achieving power in the force, it’s about finding someone to guide her. When Kylo offers his hand, that’s the quick and easy path. He’s saying “come with me, I can show you your place in this.” It’s right there for her, a teacher, but it’s also companionship. But instead she chooses the hard way - to say no and to forge her own path, scary as that may be.

I hope that makes sense.

I bookmarked this. Great stuff.

I’m definitely going to use it later in conversation with people I know irl.

The only thing I’d argue about DC’s analysis is that reading minds is not necessarily a dark side ability. Luke is shown to perform it on a sleeping Kylo when he “finds out” about the darkness in his mind.

Post
#1156697
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Gotta advocate for Dr.Dre here. This isn’t a what you like or what you didn’t like about TLJ thread. It’s a Review thread. It’s thought to be a place to post reflections based on the movie and what might come in the future of the saga. The content of those reflections can’t be ever thought as toxic, or partial because it IS partial per se. Because they are just readings on the movie itself by someone. To suggest anybody to think well or bad of the movie in order not to irritate those who think well or bad of the movie through an explicit post is to leave the thread without essence.

We’re here to discuss the movie through our messages and reflections, that should be the only way to convince someone if the movie is either good, bad, likeable, dislikeable, family-friendly, individual-friendly, western, oriental, screws the OT, doesn’t screw the OT, etc.

And it’s a tricky movie, so hope for long posts, because in the end this is a forum of discussion.

Post
#1155778
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Mrebo said:

I’m old enough to remember it being cool to say ROTJ was bad because DS2 was a rehash. Also it was bad because Han Solo supposedly had poor characterization and should have died. And Ewoks were poor Wookiee cousins included for unfortunate humorous and juvenile appeal. Similar and more extensive objections made now are considered offensive. I don’t understand that.

Seeing the same visuals and story beats so deliberately performed takes away from a feeling that this is an authentic world. Superficial similarities are inevitable. We can talk about the Hero’s Journey or whatever but of course stories are going to have some manner of similarities. Those seemingly coincidental similarities are not the focus. If one likes that we are seeing the same story beats and the same visuals (with twists), that’s a personal choice. But it is pretty obvious where OT is being repurposed in a fairly methodical way and that won’t feel natural to many viewers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6G_dNCSXfo

As the time passes I’m getting more trouble with this movie; It’s not clear to me up to which point RJ is saying screw you to the OT, or if he is actually saying fuck you to JJ Abrams who left him in this starting position to begin with, a Luke Skywalker that’s not the Luke Skywalker we know from the OT.

Despite his journey in TLJ Luke ends up looking at the horizon and being an idealist.

Surely Luke could have come out of hiding and conducted the war against his nephew, probably it is even within his range of power and knowledge to totally destroy him, kill him. Now think if Luke Skywalker from the OT, the one that couldn’t kill and forgave his beating father would be capable of killing a child of his own blood just because of the moral imperative of galactic politics. To have him do that would be out of character. As it might be out of character to have him go into hiding in the first place, but that wasn’t RJ’s fault at all. Even more, TLJ up to some point fixes the problems of TFA by leaving us in a similar situation to where the OT started: an orphan and a now plainly evil-beyond-redemption villain. By giving us this Luke, he allowed Luke from the OT to still be up to the very end of his life. By dying looking to the horizon, he’s still the same of ESB, who says fuck you to hic et nunc Yoda, and by doing so, to the old Jedi Order going after his friends. And he does again in TLJ. And by setting a situation where it’s Luke who saves the day, it even comes against the very message of the most part of the movie, which is that heroes don’t exist. They do.

Yes, the visual beats that repeat themselves are a trouble and are personally to me the evidence of all this being played, as in a game of mind, on purpose by the writer, in micro and macro scales, as the scene with the iron “landing” over the wardrobe of the first order, he has to make the best he can to answer questions and situations that weren’t his to begin with, and that were made by fan-oriented-marketing strategies that stamp all over VII that now may hopefully be vanquished:

why did Luke go into hiding? (just because it would be cool to rise Luke to the ultimate Jedi Master and make him unaccessible, it would be cool to make him the mcguffin of VII)

why did Kylo had to be a fan of Star Wars (because it would be cool to have another villain with a helmet. Johnson voices Snoke -because being that TFA is a commentary on the fans (and Lucas warned it, they made something for the fans) its continuation couldn’t be less than a commentary on that commentary in order to let the thing breathe again): Take that ridicoulous helmet off.

Why did Kylo had to be a complex, layered, gray bad guy? because it would be cool and it would sell (literally) to have a layered, relatable vilain: Vader proved and widened the notion of antihero as a figure of admiration.

What can you do to solve those starting points without flattening the most beloved character of the saga into a person responsible of killing a stupid boy? Strangely, ironically and due to how those three aspects are defined linked, make him capable and of killing a boy. But ruminate of where the movie starts and where it ends.

As a writer, in order to preserve the essence of Luke, he had to change him to somehow justify an unjustifiable writing decission. And in doing so he closes another counterdiction in the movie, which makes it richer. Once F. Scott Fitzgerald said a mind of first class is that one that can enclose two opposite ideas at the same time.

By leaving, he can come back.
By refusing Yoda’s teachings in ESB, he becomes a Jedi
By refusing to be a Jedi, he ends up being the Last of them
By being the Last One, he seeds the future.
By meditating and looking within, he reaches beyond Ach-To, or the opposite
By reaching the exterior world, he reaches inner peace.
By coming back to life, he dies.
By dying, he ascends into the Force and lives forever.

Having Luke be in two places simultaneously is not only stating the most powerful force trick we’ve seen (and hope no one undermines this achievment in new installments of the saga makin it a random power) but as well it is the visual statement of the misterical duplicity of some human being’s destiny and the very counterdiction TLJ, and Luke Skywalker is in this level.

In this sense, and only in this POV, kudos to Johnson for what he has crafted after TFA.

Post
#1154253
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

NFBisms said:
It isn’t so different from realizing that his failure doesn’t define him. And that you can always come back from it.

Whether or not another director challenges that, of course they can. But TLJ’s reading fits with the OT pretty well.

You can always come back from it, and you can always fall. The whole point of the movie is that nothing defines you ever, because it stips off Life (or the force) from any teleologic significance. It works both on screen and as a meta-commentary on the fans.

Point is that from that point of view, call it somewhat nihillistic, you can always claim pertinance to a certain structure if it fits right. Precisely because it is a nihillistic point of view.

But even if the message applies to the OT it counterdicts its explicit teleology.

Which on the other hand is the only thing it could do conceeding that given how VI ends, otherwise there would be no room for VII as it was designed.

It’s a very complex movie whose analysis goes far beyond the realm of the like/don’t like simplification. I personally enjoyed it despite its implicances (which I clearly don’t share) and it’s easily and by far the most intellectualizing movie of the saga, an author film hiding beneath the visual clichès of a pop culture trademark.

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#1149860
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Out ot “that” forbidden discussion, I just don’t think a broken Luke is out of character. Idealistic people such as OT Luke obviously are good people enough to remain broken after a traumatic event. Only hypocrites don’t, so yes, it’s still OT Luke to me. He’s done wrong, he feels regret. You do wrong and don’t feel regret? Examine your morals.

The problem with this movie is why Luke has been written to do that wrong in the first place. And the more I think about it the more it comes to mind that the true problem is where TFA left Luke in the first place, and that wasn’t RJ’s decission clearly, but JJ Mistery Box Abrams.

He defined an arc for the trilogy where just for the sake of mistery and cliffhanging (which are as well marketing entertainment decissions) the true hero and protagonist of the OT was lost and locked in an island.

What could RJ do with it other than build up to a certain point from it? TLJ, despite its views I don’t share at all, is the best product with a content you can come up after a product that’s just wow factor.

And it gives Luke a farewell that doesn’t betray his character. In the end is “that” Luke, OT Luke, the one that looks into the horizon, and not TLJ Luke, who saves the day.

Leia has been more diminished as a character that Luke could possibly be in this movie. And totally inconsistent with his TFA self.

Post
#1149598
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Rey’s cave scene:

I’ve written before the metamessage of the movie is to deny the possibility of a coherent trajectory or “journey” through time, therefore it just counterdicts the very notion of identity (since it’s a femminist movie with a liberal ethos, it doesn’t matter who you are because you can be whoever you want to be, not even gender applies). In order to counterdict that notion of identity through time, life isn’t thought or represented as a coherent whole anymore, it’s just a sucession of frames.

We are the sum of different persons we’ve been through time. There’s not an “I” but an infinite sucession of Me(s). That’s why there are infinite Reys in line, from past to future.

Yet here’s the key, the Rey that claps her fingers in the past, ends up clapping them in the future, there’s a certain flow of events from past to future. When “our” Rey understands this, she understands what is at the end of the line, the invisible wire that connects his past present and future has an answer that is in the future: she is defined by the question on who her parents are.

The mirror is at the end of the line, so this tells us her life is defined by that quest, or the inverse, the quest to know who she is is what will end up defining her life. It doesn’t matter who her parents are, because she is defined solely by the question. That’s why in the end she is her parents in the mirror, she’s an orphan. She will always be. That is her true identity, or “the name of her movie”.

Nice movie, definitely the most intelectual Star Wars has gotten ever. Only I just don’t agree with its contents. As well as I just don’t agree with the fact that knowing who your parents are doesn’t add a sense of relief in the soul of an orphan.

Post
#1149005
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, but I’d say this:

No matter how inwards you look, you still live in the company of people. And that people organise one way or other. Having a mass of people all looking inwards, doing their own and not looking to the sides it’s just another way of organising and perhaps an even more toxic one.

It’s back to natural state. A band of hunters and collectors. Nomads. A cannibalistic society with no apparent structure, but an invisible one. Because we can’t forget this is a product made by a company with funding purposes, not precisely a hippie cultural product.

About the ST: There’s no moral struggle. If Episode IX redeems Kylo as head of the First Order, then we’ll end up having a movie about a fair kingdom with a good fair emperor and everybody lived happy. Because TLJ already establishes that there’s not a hierarchy between moral-social structures: there’s darkness in rey, light in kylo, grey areas. No need of a dogma (only that not needing a dogma and praising gray is a dogma in itself: the sacred word of everything you do is good and acceptable), so just change the “inside”, the head of the regime and then magically the regime can start being good.

And that is dangerous. And yes, it’s not western, it’s oriental culture and thinking. But not because it’s chinese, but because the western corporations find that model a lot more profitable in this stage of social-mediated liquid society. The old fronteer of private and public spheres has been turned down and publicity reigns supreme. That’s Sparta and not Athens.

Individuality requires by definition the possibility of being developed, and it develops in time, like a culture (or agriculture). To have the possibility of individuality, there has to be a defined private sphere that allows that culture to grow in time, from past to future (education, family, etc.).

The overwhelming power of today’s public sphere undermines that possibility: the world is so connected that it leads to the illusion that everything happens here and now, as they made Yoda say in this movie, as if it was wisdom.

And what’s the basic permanent structure of private life in a society? Family, and lineage, not the mass but the clan. Lineage allows the individual to draw and recognize itself in a trajectory through time, even from and beyond its existence. Which doesn’t mean that lineage gives you privileges over the others, but to allows you to know your journey, and certainly conditions it to an extent.

Problem with family is that it is a structure, and as any structure, it implies some kind of oppression. As the jewish law states, the mother is evident, the father only can be supposed. That’s why traditional societies reacted by defining a role for the woman associated with the private sphere of the home. Family is the base of democracy, as was in Athens centuries ago: it was based on the relative oppresion and confinement of half the humanity to a strict and defined model of conduct.

Jeopardize those role models, and you’ll end up having no family. Without family, no identity. Without identity, a vacuum of sense or purpose. And without that, a new society based only in consumism. It’s not misoginy, it’s just reflecting on the reasons of traditional structures, and what their movement implies. Men will not occupy the private sphere. Have women abandon it, and you’ll end up with no public sphere whatsoever, and everyone just obbeying what some influencer says in twitter, instagram, youtube or whatever.

That’s why, below and below any politically correct speech, feminism as it is understood today which is as a total cultural struggle (that goes beyond fair and absolutely reasonable claims such as rebellion against harassment or difference in payment), is very, very useful to the corporations. And that is why it is very, very present in the corporations agenda. It’s the trojan horse through which tear down the only barreer left between the human person and the massive consumer.

And that is why femminism and this apparent oriental philosophy of not holding on, letting go and being passive go absolutely hand in hand and are all part of a same stage of modern capitalism advancing over the human being, when evil and good are no longer needed as concepts, nor men or women, nor family, nor identity, nor stability of any type. And yes, no more heroes please. Just be comfortable with the world we create for you because it is what it is.

Post
#1148989
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

I don’t think it’s the chinese, I see it more as a way, a rather very capitalist way, of widening the market base of these movies by having literally anyone join the ship. Nothing wrong, nothing well, anyone can identify with any character at somepoint in their lives.

All stereotypes are flawed, and bad. But to a certain extent they give you a structure to explain your world. Good, evil, women, man, master, teacher, etc.

Tear down that structure and you will remain with something new and different but not necessary a better world; a sort of absolute homogenic soup where every individual can’t position him/herself in a category. What binds them then? Only market.

There’s nothing wrong with anything as long as you keep buying.

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#1148974
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

I don’t see it that way.

Even if the plan was never revealed to Poe (so he cound’t possibly have reflected on the inevitable reactions of his flyboy plan, because of bad leadership) the other contents of the movie point the same way: don’t try to help your neighbor. Save yourself. Evacuate the ship. Live and fight another day. Reclude in your own island. Isolate yourself and don’t expand on others.

It’s not that much about obedience as it is about passiveness and accepting what comes from outside. Which is logic because the movie is to me in most of its layers an attack on the male gender role. Don’t relate to what happens outside of you, don’t seize the outer world. Look inside your womb, balance inside you, etc.

From such a passive (call it feminine?) POV, Luke’s attempt to redeem a not-willing-to-be-redeemed Vader is just an invasion, and that’s Rey closing the door on Kylo. Only you can save yourself because I won’t move a finger for you.

No more social links out of selflessness. Is that (which is also, as this is a wide cultural message) a true society?

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#1148961
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

I have no complaints on the execution of the idea. I’m quite open with it. And I have no complaints on the idea neither, because Leia is a Skywalker.

But if the force is not for everyone (I agree that it’s not explicit and thus, inconclussive) and remains for a selective collection of individuals holding a power, and this movie releases that collection of individuals from the moral imperative of being “good” because it is dogmatic, then I think we might have a problem with the message of the film.

Those in power can do what they do. Trust they have balance and that everything happens for a reason even if it doesn’t make sense.

The rest of the people, muggles, continue with your lives and follow orders.

Post
#1148948
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

TV’s Frink said:

luckydube56 said:

Anjohan said:

The Last Jedi has become bad because people can’t comprehend new directions for a 40-year old franchise. Get over it.

Episode IX WILL probably be predictable as fuck and all SW fans will rejoice.

I’m lucky in that I can ignore TLJ and TFA in my own mental canon.

This right here is how you should handle these movies if you don’t like them, and I respect this completely. But I don’t think it’s luck, I think it’s just common sense…or at least that’s what it should be. Getting all pissed off because a later movie “ruined” an earlier movie is just really alien to me.

I totally agree on this, specially knowing that Star Wars was a saga, but now it is only a franchise, a brand, hollow, it can contain anything. These new films can’t put in jeopardy your enjoyment of what came before.

Post
#1148946
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Ok, take it that way. Try something different: if the Force is for everyone then why does the director and writer underline in every possible way how powerful Master Skywalker is?

The way I see it, the requisite of the Force being for everyone is that it is an ability that you reach through effort if you want to. If you want the Force to truly be for everyone, then the very concept of “force sensitive” has to be turned down. Which counterdicts TFA as well.

Otherwise it’s a Harry Potter like scenario, an ability not present in most of the people, that can be perfected through training.

Post
#1148942
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

luckydube56 said:

Anjohan said:

The Last Jedi has become bad because people can’t comprehend new directions for a 40-year old franchise. Get over it.

Episode IX WILL probably be predictable as fuck and all SW fans will rejoice.

I’m lucky in that I can ignore TLJ and TFA in my own mental canon. Others are struggling with what they see as the destruction of what they know to be Star Wars.

But to claim that people are simply unable to adjust to change is disingenuous. This isnt change. This is degradation.

TFA was degradation to the point it was a rethread of structure and themes.
This is change, and a diametrically opposite change of everything in the SW lore.

And yet it is an enjoyable movie, and a very well crafted film.

Post
#1148930
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Watched it again. Enjoyed it better, still somethings in the meta-message of the movie are far off SW.

Space Leia counterdicts the idea that the Force is for everyone. Leia has never received any training in the movies yet she uses the force just because of her powerful bloodline.

There’s no good and bad anymore. (Kylo/Rey, Benicio del Toro’s skepticism)

It’s better to be obedient and submissive than to rebel against orders that make no sense to you, because if you don’t follow orders things can go worse. Trust the system.

There’s no point in sacrificing for others, like Finn tried. Or like Rey tried, because if you hold on to the spark of hope in someone who seems beyond redemption it’s just a bait for evil to torture you. So let go of solidarity as well.

There’s no redemption for those who don’t want to save themselves (did Vader want to save himself?), that’s Rey leting go of Kylo in the end of the film that is Leia renouncing to a mother’s inconditional love, which essentially speaks of a far worse Leia than Luke in TLJ. She’s a strong woman, granted, but she’s not quite a great and functional human being in her role of mother (only that motherhood doesn’t say anything about you anymore) At this point, it was Han and not Leia who truly loved Ben. And Leia was just a jerk that sent Han to death only to renounce his son after that (and not because of that).

There’s no point in having remorse for one’s mistakes, like Luke did. Because “failure is the best teacher” (which is to say that failing is something good. Wouldn’t it be betterr not to fail at all, and learn watching someone else’s mistakes?)

There’s no point in knowing the past (let the past die, burn the books, kill your father and your teacher, burn the tree) or caring for the future (we are what they grow beyond, no need to learn or reveal a military plan), and from here on:

There’s no point in knowing one’s identity (Rey), because in the end we are all sons of nobodies (the only way to positively determine an identity at a social scale is patriarchy, otherwise check the hebrew POV on the subject, and reflect on the agenda of the movie.)

This is not a “safe” corporate product in terms of inmediate market selling. Half of the people don’t like this movie, so that POV doesn’t stand as solid for me. This is instead a very deep, well thought manifesto on social architecture in the hands of a corporation: TLJ proposes that we are all individuals and that we have no need of the Other. We’re no ones. We have to obbey, to be passive, to accept imperfections, to renounce the past and the future, to refuse the concept of bravery, to embrace our lowest and not to ever rebel against ourselves or the others beyond the point we’re allowed to by the permissions granted.

Luke wasn’t being selfish, I disagree with Hammil on this one. He was acting out of solidarity. And up to some point, it is not out of character. I mean, he responds like Luke Skywalker would. Luke is a good person, that is why he is full of remorse out of what he did. And that is Luke Skywalker from the Original Trilogy: we saw him slip to the darkside in Jedi, and then tossing his sabre. He did again with Kylo and had the same reaction.

I don’t know if I wanted the ST trilogy to be designed to include Luke only in one episode, and have that episode be about a broken Luke. But having a Luke capable of evil again after ROTJ, his conflict and reaction seems totally in character to me. And it totally makes thense that the only and most respectful thing you can do with a Hero in a movie about accepting what happens is to have him recluse on an island.

I don’t blame Rey for being tossed in a probable redemption arc situation in the middle chapter of a trilogy, but as far as this movie goes, not as great human being as the son of Anakin.

The irony of it all? That in the end Luke died looking at the horizon and sacrificing for others, for “the Other”. And he saved the Others, and saved the franchise not by saving the good guys on screen but by counterdicting the shitty message this movie has. It’s not a redemption for him, but more of reaching a peace within himself with his own thoughts from the past, a big fuck you to the bullshit they made Yoda say this time. For him, for a true hero it’s not here, now and within, but somewhere else, tomorrow, someone.

And it is a true hero, a true Jedi Knight, a true warrior of the Light Side who ends up saving this bunch of idiots that are the Iphone version of the rebel alliance.

The cause, consequence and true image of this movie is Anakin’s lightsabre (Call Dr Freud) being split between a “good” good girl and a “bad” vilain boy. Share the phalus, share the power, a little for each.

Post
#1145591
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Once a writer said:

Gibbon tells us that in the arab book par excellence, the Quran, there are no camels; I believe that were it to be any doubt about the Quran’s authenticity, this absence of camels would suffice to prove it to be truly arab.

What’s implied is clear, you just don’t even find relatable the things that pertain to your quotidian world. Tales about magical castles imply that that age is past. The western amusement for what’s diverse only proves how at the very core that is a false expectation and something that is not true to the actual situation of things. Look how open we are, we have black people be protagonists only means that they are just not that open and that its made on a worse purpose.

Those who are left behind due to their skin color or race just won’t have an easier life because a fictional story gestated by those responsible of their sufferings somehow “represents them”.

The casting of Finn, if it happened as it’s said to have happened is a good example of true diversity: you have a character written and have no idea of what his skin color or race is supposed to be, and cast the best performance. Diversity in the film is in that case the natural byproduct of openness in the writing of the movie.

Not the same about deliberately having the male characters fail. Or pushing decissions before the casting.

Wanna make a truly diversity rooted film? Right. Write about characters and make unisex casts, and define on the casting, based on the actor/tress giving the best performance the gender and race of the character. Otherwise diversity my ass. It’s just design.

Post
#1145539
Topic
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS **
Time

Can we just separate for one moment what goes on within the screen from what goes on outside it?

Nope, there are no women in Star Wars because in ancient traditions war is a subject relative to men. And it’s absolutely logic that in a fictional tale, that takes place in a fictional galaxy and that borrows from traditional sources women are to be not as represented.

Yet no one complains here about Ahsoka Tano, or about Ayla Secura, or about female Jedi masters in the PT. Nor about Leia or Padmè. Because their inclusion didn’t feel forced. No one complained about Windu being portrayed by Samuel Jackson neither.
As probably Holdo’s inclusion wouldn’t have felt forced were it not for the fact that there already was Admiral Ackbar to be used, there already was Leia to be a strong woman in charge. And she has been there since the 80s. So to many of us the sole point of some characters is to push an agenda very well outside the logic of the movie. And it just doesn’t fit the Star Wars mythos to many of us. So what’s the problem with it?

Why does a girl have to be “represented” on screen as a soldier? In the end, being a market product it just explains itself within the logic of market and therefore it’s not even femminism, it’s just plain toy selling and widening the market base.

I totally can take RJ’s new trilogy, outside the Skywalker saga being about the most misrepresented social sector taking over the galaxy and bossing people around. It’s a LFL product and have this kind of inclusion is not only good but even necessary…both for equality reasons and market reasons. Yet being it a different tale, set with a totally different perspective, it can have its own rules and take it wherever he wants to.

The thing is they just included a bunch of stuff that didn’t pertain to the repertory of the original saga in it, when they have plenty of room to do their stuff somewhere else.

Though in the end, it’s their story, they own it and they can do with it whatever they want.