Joshua724

alexp120 said:

Joshua724 said:

As much as I applaud fan efforts to preserve the pre-SE audio tracks via the laserdisc, they pail in comparison to the cassette recording my dad did while at CBS\FOX. I appreciate any and all offers to transfer the cassette we have to a digital format for later use. After talking with my dad, even though he did the recording for me (something that he could hand down) and I could do with it what I want, he made it conditional because it was meant only for me. But, we decided to purchase our own metal tape deck and plan on digitizing the track that way. I’ll figure out how to make it available after that. As far as which version it is, it’s before the SE. So, what does it matter? But, if you need a date, call it the CBS\FOX 1984 version of ESB.

I was inquiring as to how this project is coming out.

We have the cassette deck to play back the metallic cassette. However, I still need to work with him on getting it transferred to WAV or FLIC. The only reason why it stalled was because he randomly decided that he wanted us to get a dog. So, we’ve been getting her cleared by the vet and settled in. I’ll drop him a note again about getting all this together to get it done.

yotsuya said:

You should really inform Schorman that his 1983 Japanese LD’s don’t really exist and his 1985/6 US LD’s must have been made later.

What they probably did was use the existing master. I lost count of how many early DVD’s were made from the LD master tapes. No reason to expect that was a new thing. Knowing a bit about corporate mentality, there would also be no reason to tell the engineers.

I said North American release. Obviously, the Japanese do their own thing (and probably had their own license). Heck, they were one of the few countries to get LDs of Episode 1 because it was still popular at the time.

As for the 85/86 release, in all honesty, some of my statements were coming from the fact that my dad was stressed this weekend (let alone dogmatic 24/7), making me stressed, and I probably could have said things a little better. If Schorman owns a US 84 LD, fine. On one side, I got my dad who says he knows better and no LD of any of the three movies existed during his tenure between 83 and 86. On the other, I got fans who say they own LDs from 1984 as well as various sources on the web (LDDB, Woodieepedia, etc.) confirming LDs were released. I’m just tired of being stuck between a rock and a hard place while trying to defend my dad. (I wonder if this is how George felt when he got fed up and retired.)

What I’m about to say is not to confirm that anyone on either side of the fence knows better about what they are talking about so much as to lay certain things down after having some encounters after posting this interview:

1. I will acknowledge that he is probably confusing some technical information about certain formats. In particular, referring to laserdisc as a glass format. However, this does not necessarily indicate that he has gaps in his memory. I can build a computer from scratch and have it working in just a few hours. But, that doesn’t mean I always know where my car keys are.

2. No Laserdisc was made up to 1986 when my dad was laid off…period. Any and all manufacturing information stating that laserdiscs for STAR WARS were made before that are outright lies. CBS\FOX would have been told what kind of master tapes to make and for what format before even making the masters due to the fact that they were the only duplication facility in North America with the license to duplicate and distribute all three movies in North America. As such, he would know if they were going to.

3. As much as I applaud fan efforts to preserve the pre-SE audio tracks via the laserdisc, they pail in comparison to the cassette recording my dad did while at CBS\FOX. I appreciate any and all offers to transfer the cassette we have to a digital format for later use. After talking with my dad, even though he did the recording for me (something that he could hand down) and I could do with it what I want, he made it conditional because it was meant only for me. But, we decided to purchase our own metal tape deck and plan on digitizing the track that way. I’ll figure out how to make it available after that. As far as which version it is, it’s before the SE. So, what does it matter? But, if you need a date, call it the CBS\FOX 1984 version of ESB.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

I must be missing something… why would a pre-SE soundtrack be so valuable? The laserdisks were pre-SE.

The cassette is valuable TO HIM because it’s the only cassette in existence with a recording of the ESB soundtrack in dbx on a metallic tape that’s able to capture the quality and frequency range of the original ESB optical reels.

Puggo - Jar Jar’s Yoda said:

Joshua724 said:

Williarob said:

@Joshua724: At around 58 minutes, your dad talks about a cassette recording he made of the soundtrack for testing at home, and he says he “thinks we still have that”. Were you able to dig that up? I’m sure I’m not the only one here who would like to listen to it…

Not only do I have it, I was planning on loaning it to someone who knew how best to handle it to coincide with the release of this interview. I just forgot to mention that. As such, does anyone know someone who has the proper tape playing equipment to be able to play back this tape at the highest audio quality that it was recorded at? Here’s some stats:

TDK MetalBias 70us EQ MA90
Noise Reduction: DBX
High(CrO2)): 70us

The main emphasis on this tape cassette is that it was recorded with a tape machine that took full advantage of the metal composition on the tape cassette to record the audio track in the best way possible.

Is this a cassette tape or a reel? If it is a cassette, I have a NAK MR1 that has been tuned recently.

We had to look it up to find out that NAK MR1 stood for Nakamichi MR-1. Of which, in that case, as long as the tape heads are aligned to 1983 standards, it should work with the cassette he recorded to. Here’s my email address if you don’t want to post your mailing address to the forum: joshua7241984@gmail.com

Note: I just found out a few hours ago my dad will only rent the cassette for a few hundred dollars. In his mind, because this is the only one of it’s kind in existence, it’s worth way more. The thing is, I’ve been telling him for years about how this is a holy grail for OT fans to be able to have a Pre-SE soundtrack and he’s said that someone would have to have a deck that can handle the quality of this recording. He never once mentioned a price. So, sorry about that. Believe me, I feel like I’ve been thrown a curve-ball from out of nowhere.

schorman13 said:

1. Speculation/Details about Black R2-D2 (It’s not black because of the blue-screen process, they actually used a black-painted R2 to specifically avoid problems with the blue-screen process)…

I won’t nitpick about this too much except to point out that, if you take note of R2’s light just below his optical lense, the blue also goes out there. Now, this could also be proof towards the idea that there was a black R2 on set. Just thought I’d point that out.

Williarob said:

@Joshua724: At around 58 minutes, your dad talks about a cassette recording he made of the soundtrack for testing at home, and he says he “thinks we still have that”. Were you able to dig that up? I’m sure I’m not the only one here who would like to listen to it…

Not only do I have it, I was planning on loaning it to someone who knew how best to handle it to coincide with the release of this interview. I just forgot to mention that. As such, does anyone know someone who has the proper tape playing equipment to be able to play back this tape at the highest audio quality that it was recorded at? Here’s some stats:

TDK MetalBias 70us EQ MA90
Noise Reduction: DBX
High(CrO2)): 70us

The main emphasis on this tape cassette is that it was recorded with a tape machine that took full advantage of the metal composition on the tape cassette to record the audio track in the best way possible.

Note: The tape cassette says The Empire Strikes Back. If he was making a test recording, it would be of the first movie done using this new digital mastering technique. There wouldn’t be a need to do it with a second test recording. So, no, we don’t have the Pre-SE A New Hope audio track.

Sorry this took so long. It was a matter of getting together with him on a day that nothing else was going on and we wouldn’t get interrupted. On top of that, we had some wild animals wandering around our backyard at night that we wanted gone, I was trying to find video sources to use as reference clips, and my video editor kept crashing (of which it took a long time just to find out that the video formats I was using didn’t want to work with my video editor, so I had to convert them).

Bottom line, here’s the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LagwssLxlk

On reflection, I think I could have worded the last statement of my post differently so as to avoid rubbing individuals on this forum wrong. My dad is disappointed with the fact that the version of the movie that he worked on may never see the light of day (except if Disney releases the original version). However, as much as my dad likes to see how fans try to recreate the original film print utilizing many creative means, he has become rather disdain with the fact that fans are complaining so much about the changes. As such, I was trying to make a resounding no so as to punctuate the fact that this is about a project that took place in the 80s. Not as much about either the SE or fan projects.

To everyone on originaltrilogy.com

I’ve done a number of posts in the past about what my dad has thought about the various fan edits and preservation initiatives to try to bring STAR WARS, either, up-to-date with added effects that we wonder why they didn’t think about that when they did the SE, DVD, or BD or back to what they originally remember before the SE. We recently got a new 4k 55” SONY that looks so good we haven’t bothered to change any of the color settings from the factory default. When I showed him my STAR WARS BDs on that TV, his comment was that it looked better than the limited equipment they had to work with back at CBS/FOX Video. As such, I thought that this was the best moment to announce that I plan on interviewing him. I plan on asking him what it was like working at CBS/FOX, working on so many high profile movies, dealing with the limitations in equipment that he was stuck with at the time, and, most importantly, how the most recent release of STAR WARS compares with what he handled at the studio in terms of audio and video quality.

If anyone has any particular question that you’d like me to ask him, post it here. I WILL NOT be asking him what he thinks of a particular fan project. You can see my other post as a reference point for that:
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/id/17753

Questions will be limited to his tenure there, his feelings about the movie series, and whether or not recent DVDs/BDs have done the movie series justice in terms of audio and video quality. I’ll consider asking him how he feels about the changes made (SE/post-SE); but, only if there’s enough of a consensus to want to hear his thoughts. Otherwise, when it gets down to it, it’s all about one man’s creative decisions about his own art and the lines in the sand that get drawn just because people feel they are “owed” the version that they fell in love with in the first place. This is not to say that any one version is more relevant than another. I just consider that a topic for another discussion.

“…It’s like this is the movie I wanted it to be, and I’m sorry you saw half a completed film and fell in love with it. But I want it to be the way I want it to be. I’m the one who has to take responsibility for it. I’m the one who has to have everybody throw rocks at me all the time, so at least if they’re going to throw rocks at me, they’re going to throw rocks at me for something I love rather than something I think is not very good, or at least something I think is not finished.”

• George Lucas, 2004

http://www.today.com/id/6011380/ns/today-today_entertainment/t/lucas-talks-star-wars-trilogy-returns/#.Vy2lQVVhlhE

Baronlando said:

This is pretty interesting, does your dad know if those prints went to Fox or up to Lucasfilm when the transfer was done? I always wondered where they ended up.

He's pretty sure they were returned to Lucasfilm. Either that or ILM. But, taking into consideration that Lucasfilm has an archive, they're probably there. Interestingly, the version that was put on home video format was not the first transfer they did. They were accidentally shipped a theatrical print that had a green tint on all the reels. They corrected it as best as they could and did a dupe of that. When Lucasfilm realized what they did, they sent them the correct reels and a proper dupe was made.

happycube said:

I'm wondering who did the widescreen transfers for the Japanese widescreen version etc, since they came off the same print.

... and why the pre-DVNR version found on THX Wow! and the Technidisc widescreen never got a good quality pressing.  IMO that's the best NTSC master...

He wasn't there when they did the LD release. I recall we moved from Michigan (where CBS FOX was located) before my younger sister was born in 1989.

Opinions of fan preservation projects from an individual who saw the original film elements

In looking all over the internet for fan projects that attempt to restore the STAR WARS movies back to what they originally looked like in theaters (special thanks to Harmy for making that documentary citing all his sources), I decided to speak to a source who saw and handled the original film negative elements while he was working at CBS/FOX Video: my dad.

Not only did he handle the original film elements of all three movies, he supervised the transfer to home video formats. In fact, they had a representative from Lucasfilm at CBS/FOX and, as they created dupes of each film reel, they were promptly shipped to George who okay-ed them.

Now, I don’t want this to sound like bragging. But, because he had such an intimate connection to all three movies, I consider his opinion on any fan conversion extremely valuable. As such, as much as I might get beamed for being rather brazen about what I’m about to say, I feel that the information I have gleaned from him to be of value to any fan project attempting to recreate a cut of the original STAR WARS movie as it was seen in theaters before 1997.

The Blu-Ray release

When I first heard that this was going to be released, I think I pre-ordered it on Amazon.com to make sure I was going to get it. When I got it, I asked my dad to give a quick opinion of it. We freeze framed on a shot of C-3PO’s forehead on-board the Tantive IV and he said that he hadn’t seen the detail of the dirt and grime on C-3PO’s forehead since he handled the film elements back in the 80s. As Episode 7 was being made, he decided he wanted to re-watch the movies, especially in light of the changes that George did. Now, putting aside the changes, he’s examined the blu-ray enough to give his opinion of how he thinks the transfer looks. The entire movie looks noisy. This is especially noticeable aboard the Tantive IV against the whites. Another place where it’s noticeable is just after the droids land on Tatooine. He knows how well a 35mm film can look on blu-ray and whoever did this did a very poor job.

Some other problems he’s seen are that the whites look pink (noticeable on the Tantive IV) and the blacks look blue (close-ups of Vader). However, the background blacks (like on the sandcrawler) look normal (I’ll reference this again later).

Now this is mainly for the first movie seeing as how that one usually tends to be done first both from a project perspective and for fans trying to download a copy. However, when I was downloading Adywan’s cut some years ago, I opted to get his opinion of that to pass along to Adywan. Empire appears to be bluer throughout the movie.

Adywan

Episode 4 appears to have been done right. I haven’t showed it to him. But, comparing the notes I made on the other fan releases my dad commented on to this one, the color corrections appear to have been done right. Unfortunately, he’s only released an SD version of his work because he didn’t have and HD or BR source at the time. So, this is the most I can offer. As for Empire, he did a good job at fixing the blue. But, at least the snow scenes he turned the brightness up too much.

(The following is based on looking at Harmy’s documentary on where he got his sources from for his DE. So, if he altered his sources before putting them into his version, my apologies. However, you could take this as a point of reference as to how the original trilogy is supposed to look.)

Harmy

The whites on the Tantive IV no longer look as pink. However, they now look more yellow. Harmy commented about how the blacks look more crushed (sandcrawler scenes). If this is because they don’t pop out as much for the blu-ray release, my dad said that this was natural for a high-def format. What’s more if you’re only point of reference for blacks is an SD/analog release, then you don’t know what blacks are supposed to look like. What’s worse is that, in fixing the blacks, lighter elements now look more yellow.

Something else Harmy commented on was that the sand scenes just after the droids land looked artificial due to a clean up process for the blu-ray release. With the exception of the noise in the overall picture, my dad couldn’t figure out what looked artificial about it. However, Harmy’s tweaks make it look more washed out now.

You_Too

A comment was made about how whenever there is an explosion because of a laser blast, it looks more magenta. Unfortunately, my dad doesn’t have any recollection of how these scenes are supposed to look. However, his opinion is that You-Too’s tweaks on those scenes don’t look much better. However, You-Too’s tweaks on the skin tones make those scenes look much better.

I.B. Technicolor print screening

In attempting to capture a film print by projecting it on a screen and capturing it with a high-def camera, the only color channel that’s correct is the luminance. Otherwise, that kind of capture is useless.

Project Blu V1

I didn’t get any negative feedback from him. Instead, I pointed out the attempt to sharpen the “GOUT” DVD. If anything, Harmy altered the colors of this version for his version (ex: the Death Star got turned blue from grey).

Project Blu V2

The sharpness looks good. But, the images look too bright.

2004 DVD vs 2004 HDTV versions

The sample we saw was in the Millennium Falcon as Luke was training and there was that board game going on in the background. The 2004 DVD is color correct. The 2004 HDTV broadcast has C-3PO looking more bronze.

(My dad stopped here because, in his words, the mistakes were getting repetitive.)

Again, this is me attempting to assimilate everything my dad commented on and repeat it in an understandable form. Some of you may take it as valuable insight as to how close any fan recreating has come to the original version and make your version better. Others, I’m sure, will tell me my dad doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

On that note, allow me to tell you something my dad had to deal with some years ago. He works in television. Particularly helping in the editing department. If an image doesn’t look right, either he eyes it to see what needs to be tweaked or he uses a scope to determine which color channel needs adjusting. Someone was editing an episode of a show they produce and he couldn’t get the color right. He did some tweaking to a piece of equipment and finished editing the show. However, all of the following material edited on that machine looked right on the monitor but looked off when it went to tape. My dad went in, scoped all the equipment, and determined that someone had changed the monitor’s color properties so that projects edited on that computer looked right on that monitor but didn’t look right when they went to tape.

So, before posting any criticisms against my dad or his opinion, keep in mind that he is a professional in the industry who has to stay on top of emerging digital technology and has handled the original film elements for STAR WARS.