Jawa77

Someone on another forum has come into possession of a few reels of a 70mm print of Star Wars 4. I also noticed that a 35mm copy from Poland recently sold on ebay for $600, it was hard to tell but the color didn't appear to be half bad, I wonder if that was not technicolor too since the color appeared to be natural still (although it was a little hard to tell really from their screen shots) and the print was not made in the US (where technicolor had already ended).

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

hairy_hen said:

The grappling hook thing is ridiculous.

I believe that people "remember" the missed grappling hook because every other motion picture with a similar scene includes a miss or two. The brain fills in what we expected to see.  It's a common movie scene. I was sure I saw it too (I was 17 at the time and saw SW four or five times in 1977, in two different theaters), but now I'm convinced that my brain simply filled in what it expected - since I hadn't read the book it couldn't have come from there.

Well I still stand by that it was there on premiere day (70mm Paramus, NJ, before they sent out the later version when they expanded 70mm showings). If it wasn't though, I don't think the above would explain it. How many movies had I even seen then? I was pretty young, had only just learned to read not even really a year earlier. And if some zorro on tv or whatnot had had such a thing, it just doesn't fit anyway, at least not in my case. It just wasn't that sort of a memory. The only possibility would've been reading it in the book some months later and then not seeing it in the 35mm regular mono release and then somehow dreaming that night that the extended scene had been in the 70mm showing that had matched the book and then having a very realistic, full detail dream of the entire scene and then dreamed I was watching the 35mm showing and seeing the whole scene again in detail without it and being shocked that it was not there and then somehow a few weeks later forgetting it had all been some very elaborate and realistic dream. I doubt it though.

I'm having trouble finding my original copy of the novel. If it were to have say a 1978 republication date or something then that would prove that there would've been no way for me to have read it in time for that to have even been a possibility. I know I didn't read it right away after having seen the 70mm. I can't quite remember when I did though. I wonder if I go through old audio tapes recorded when I was a kid if there would be any hints about any of this....

I need to try to track down the earliest record of when I wrote down what I though the differences were.

adywan said:

hairy_hen said:

The grappling hook thing is ridiculous.  All you have to do to confirm that it is Apocryphal of the worst kind is listen to the music cue for this scene.  The way it is composed fits the film perfectly--there is no break or edit anywhere that would indicate it had been trimmed to fit a shortened version of the scene.  There are other places in the film where the music is edited to accommodate picture changes, and listening to them as compared to the score alone the cuts can be spotted easily enough, but the chasm scene never needed to be subjected to this.

One of the most intelligent answers that quashes the "grappling hook" myth once and for all. There is no place it would fit. John Williams writes the score to fit the emotions and pacing that is on the screen. There is no section prior to the grappling hook that would match a complete miss by luke. It never happened, it's just a false memory, same with people swearing they saw the anchorhead scenes in the movie at its release.

I don't believe that quashes anything once and for all.

Trying to dig up my copy of the novelization. It would be nice if it turned out I hadn't gotten it until perhaps some second reprinting with a date from the following year or something. I have no idea (if they even did that for one).

I thought Lucas once said something about to not want to go with a missed toss in the end because he wanted it to not potentially appear to have been random luck the second time. I'm very fuzzy on this part though.

I'm going to see if I can at least eventually dig up computer files I wrote about SW stuff from the late 80's and see exactly what I wrote about the whole grappling hook thing back then, which would at least be a lot fresher than now.

My vague recollection is that years ago the second toss didn't seem to be too controversial but the Biggs stuff always had been looked at with doubt.

morgands1 said:

OK, I've wrestled the evil god Javascript (and his fiendish monkey helper CSS) and relaunched the web site, "Wide Angle/Closeup: Conversation With Filmmakers," and reposted the article on Star Wars audio.

http://www.wideanglecloseup.com/starwarsaudio.html

Thanks for your continued interest.

Cheers,

David 

I see that you went to the SW Paramus, NJ 70mm in 1977. I was wondering if you went on opening day or at least within the first month.

(and thanks for posting these I will have to take a listen)

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I know we have many examples of faulty SW memory syndrome... Luke missing the first time with the grappler hook, for example (of which I am one of the many victims).

But I have an example from the 1997 SE that has been nagging at the back of my mind for several years, and I've finally built up the courage to ask here....

When the SE of Star Wars came out in the theater in 1997, I saw it on opening night. Somehow, I remember being surprised that the line "close the blast doors" was said by a calm woman's voice, as if it were an automated voice coming over an intercom. I also remember thinking that they must have added it that way, rather than restoring it from an original 1977 source.

I am now beginning to think that this is yet another example of faulty SW memory syndrome, because I haven't been able to find any example of the SE with anything other than the original voice that matches the original mono mix.

So, am I to presume that I am so afflicted yet again?

i forget which version, but on one of them either "close the blast doors" or "open the blast doors" sounded somehow different (definitely not like a woman's voice though). Not sure if it is because they had some read it again or just the way they placed it or cleaned it up or something.

One thing I recall is the line "Then I'll see you in hell." read just like that in any of the recent releases but originally I recall a huge emphasis on "hell", "Then I'll see you in HELLL!!!!!" Is that a known difference? Was it just the acoustics of the theater and speaker system making it sound more emphasized when it's always been the same or did Lucas later try to tame it down?

zombie84 said:

None of these exist you guys. There has never been any extended or alternate ANH edits--to do so would require going back to the negative and re-striking a new edited IP. None of these things are in the script, in stills, in any sort of official source of movie deletions or the lengthy deleted scenes lists that even the official site has exhaustedly chronicled, and all people have is vague memories--just like years ago people by the hundred swore they saw the biggs footage on TV. But they never did. They just invented a memory. It happens when you are dealing with childhood memories from decades ago that involve hundreds of other multimedia sources that influence them like the many novels and storybooks. The version of Star Wars released on the 2006 GOUT DVD is the only version of Star Wars that ever existed until the SE, with the exception of the 1981 crawl.

Isn't it on record that the 70mm premieres were rushed out though and slightly rough and that they still were working on a few final sound/visual edits for the general release? I thought I once read that there was a tiny of doubt as to whether each the handful of theaters were the premiere was shown even got 100% the same thing.

(for the record, i have no memory of having seen the biggs/tatooine scene at the paramus showing, i do recall reading about it and seeing it on trading cards or in some books or something way back when though)

crazyrabbits said:

Hmmm. From what I remember, I saw something that resembled the scene mentioned in the topic. I will swear on my life that after Leia kisses Luke "for luck", the door behind them goes up slightly. He throws the grappling hook, which misses, and he pulls it back up, and the door slowly goes up again. It's only then that he swings and it catches. I will swear on my life that I saw it, though it might have been in a broadcast version.

yeah exactly i could swear that it made the ratcheting up of the door seem more extended and that it made the whole scene a lot more tense and that when i saw it the next time i was like waht happened and when i view it now the editing seems suspiciously choppy and weird very much like something got chopped out.

did you see any of the 70mm premiere showings?

zombie84 said:

It was in the novel. Thats why a few people remember seeing it. Just like they remember seeing the spaceships crash into the DS shield in ROTJ. They saw it in their minds when they were kids and twenty years later it feels as though it was seen on a screen. It never happened.

As for the S-foils, them opening was in all versions. There has only been one visual change from 1977-1996, and that is the Episode Iv crawl.

I don't know about that I didn't get the novelization until sometime after I had seen the 70mm 6track premiere in Paramus, NJ. Anyone else see that premiere on opening day and recall the miss?

I asked my dad and he said he didn't even remember the chasm haha!

There have to be a few people out there who say the premiere print there. I think the theater sat like 2200 people and it was totally sold out the entire first day, at the least.

hanakin said:

I have told all my friends about this for many years, and never once have I been believed. And I have never found evidence to prove what I know to be true.

I can swear on all that is good and holy and just that a long time ago, in a place far far away, I saw a version of Episode IV where Luke misses the grappling hook. He and Leia are gonna try to swing across the chasm, but he missed on his first throw. Everyone tells me that I am crazy and don't know what I'm talking about, but I insist. I know I've seen it, but it was so long ago and I was so young. Because, we have to remember, with as many versions we have from the Special Editions of '97 and from the remastered versions of '93 and the newest versions of '04 -- there were at least 3 previous VHS versions released during the early and late 80's. Somebody please help me!! I know I'm not crazy!!


Also, on the Laserdisc remastered versions of '93, there is a scene with the X-Wings that I think was added. I think actually, that it might be one of the first CGI additions ever put on screen. It is when the guy says to "Lock S-Foils into attack formation." I'm pretty sure that the original versions did not actually have anything happen, just somebody saying that over the radio. And with the '93 version, you actually see a few X-Wings open their S-Foils.


Just a couple things I have not seen commented. Am I right? Or totally of the mark?

Did you by any chance see any of the 70mm premieres (not general 70mm release, not general 35mm release, one of the 70mm premieres)? And by any chance in Paramus, NJ?

That is the one and only time I ever claim to have seen that scene. More tense. I seem to recall Leia getting worried and that it made the ratcheting up of the blast doors seem more frightening.

I never saw it at any of the 35mm releases that year or in '78 or the later re-release. I never saw it on TV or any form of home video. Just that once at the premiere.

THX said:

Doesn't. Exist.

grappling hook miss does exists, or at least used to exist on premiere day

The Starkiller said:

The Star Wars CED is identical to the 1982 and 1983 laserdiscs--which differ only in panning and scanning to the VHS and subsequent laserdisc counterparts. There is no missing or additional footage. Claims such as Luke throwing the grappling hook twice are nothing but myths with absolutely no validity.

not a myth

were you there opening day, Paramus, NJ??

And since other people are now claiming to have seen it too, wouldn't it be pretty bizarre for people to have day dreamed up some a random thing?

It extended the length of the scene a bit too and built up a lot more tension as the racheting up of the blast door was prolonged. I've been mentioning this for years upon years and tired of everyone always saying I made it up. As soon as I got a modem, I mentioned it way back in the BBS days, maybe only 12 years after SW had been released and I have notes I wrote about it from way, way earlier than that.

ReverendBeastly said:

Originally posted by: StarWarsFan1976
Also I have read that STAR WARS has the a clip thats missing the shot were Luke missing tossing the rope and does it again.....be interesting to see if this is true or not...

*sigh*

Doesn't. Exist.

Period.

And yet I saw it on release day at the Stanley Warner, Paramus, NJ!

Anyway glad to see that at least someone else has it at least heard of it.

There has got ot be someone else out there who also saw it there who can back me up.

Bobby Jay said:

Jawa77 said:

Moth3r said:

timdiggerm said:

I was there.

1. From what I've read, it was actually the 1981 re-release print, as it had "EPISODE IV - A NEW HOPE" and "Close the blast doors! Close the blast doors!" was missing.

"Close the blast doors" was missing in the first 1977 run as well - it didn't appear until the mono mix, which was finished some time after the Dolby mixes.

The 1981 print you saw probably had the original 1977 Dolby Stereo sound mix.  

Nope "Close the blast doors, close the blast doors! .... Open the blast doors, open the blast doors!" was there in the original 70mm Dolby 6 channel on opening day.

(as was Luke missing the first grappling hook throw, which has never appeared in any other version, not in any of the 35mm prints no matter when they were release, nor in any of the home versions- Lucas decided that it made Luke's kills appear to feeble and decided he wanted his skills to seem more amazing there after all; the original scene was longer and more dramatic since more suspense was built up over a more extended period of time as the stormtroopers slowly propped the door open)

 

Beg to differ with you there. The "close the blast doors line" was only heard in the Mono Mix and was never in the 70mm Mix. This is confirmed by an in theatre recording of the 70mm Mix from 1977.

As for the missing grappling hook, after 33 years no one has ever been able to prove this was ever seen in a released version of the film. Unless any one can produce hard evidence of it and not a 33 year old memory, I'm guessing  it didn't happen.

arrrr just entered a long message and then went to copy it to save and hit paste by accident and erased it....

anyway, trying again:

Well you could be right about the close the blast doors thing. I do know I saw it that way sometime back in the day in the theater for sure, at the very least, and that I was mad when the version I got for home had it missing, as I think most did for a long while (maybe an early home version had it???). When they finally did add it back in they changed it a little bit. I recall seeing a version in home without out it and complaining about the missing part and then everyone said I was crazy and making it up so I figured, since none of them had ever seen the 70mm premiere (or even ever, hardly anyone actually ever saw the 70mm version compared to the 35mm versions and fewer still ever saw the 9 theater premieres) that maybe it had only been in that version, but I guess it was actually just that some of them had forgotten about it and the others had never heard the original MONO mix (I saw that a ton of times in '77), I guess some of them may have been a couple years too young for that, most likely.

One thing to keep in mind, although most likely not relevant to the above and perhaps to nothing at all but, I recall hearing that they were in such a rush with the 70mm prints that not all theaters got exactly the same splicings of the 70mm premieres and that the 70mm prints got re-edited a little while after the premieres and that the premiere showings were a little different than the finished general release cuts. I think this may have been the case with ESB too. (I have a vague memory that something or other about the wampa cave stuff had been different in the 70mm premiere I saw compared to other showings. That memory was a little vague even at the time though.)

As for the missed grappling hook toss, I'm not how/why I could have imagined that up. And it's a lot less than a 33 years old recall. I even mentioned it on the boards way back in the BBS days and that would've been only about 11 years after the 1977 release and I also have notes about it from way, way before even then. It's not like it was a quick 2 second addition, toss miss boom, thing either. He carefully prepared himself, made the toss, it didn't catch, he had to retrieve it back in, Leia getting more and more worried as the doors ever so slowly get ratched up more and more by the stormtroopers, then he has to settle down again and try again. I thought it built up a lot more tension since the door ratchething thing was so extended and I also thought there was a chance Luke might not make it at all (haha see story below). I only saw it that one time and never since :(. I'd love that scene to get released as bonus material some day.

First I should say I saw the 70mm premiere on opening day at the Stanley Warner tri (although I can't quite recall if it was tri yet, maybe not until ESB???) in Paramus, NJ. It had a pretty fancy entrance, at least it sure blew away the little local shoe boxes places they had put up around that time. You'd walk in and then walk to the left and then enter this ginormous theater, it even had an upper balcony, although I never sat up there, the main seating area had multiple sections. I also recall the popcorn had an insanely high price for the day.

The giant screen was situated up above you and really loomed over you. I recently found an old document that lists the screen as having been 65' wide (at least when first built). I actually thought it would've been more like 75-80' but I guess stuff looks bigger when you are little, especially compared to little mall theaters. Then again it was a flat screen, not curved, so I supposed the straight line edge to edge may have been more like a modern curved 70-75' width??? I suppose they could have expanded it after initial construction too, although probably not. I'm not exactly sure how many it seated, but about 10 years ago I ran into a worker there who actually recalled the old palace auditorium and he claimed it sat 2200 before it got split. (I think they split it either shortly before or after ROTJ. I never did see ROTJ in 70mm.) When I went back to see the digital premiere of The Phantom Menace it appeared to me the palace screen had been utterly destroyed, split into into what appeared to be a shocking TWO levels of FOUR screens each, yes, it actually looked like they split one auditorium into as many as 8!! :(  Some of the screens at the theater are the smallest I have ever seen. It looked like they still had the two original additional screens to the right in the same configuration and same old seats though. It was a shame that for the TPM digital premiere the screen they showed it on, the 'big' screen, used to be one of the tiny little ones there, now it's the largest, I bet only like 35' or something.

Anyway and then there was the sound! The sound quality just blew me away. I'd never heard anything like it in my life! I recall going on and on about Dolby this and Dolby that and how it was the most amazing thing ever and how they made the best sound quality 100x over, etc.

But before entering we had to stand in line for hours! And getting back to the original point about Luke haha, I overheard some talk about how they couldn't believe the two main characters actually get killed in this film (as it turned out "this film" had actually referred to an entirely different film out at the time) so the whole time I was watching I knew that even though main hero character stars pretty much are guaranteed to survive, certainly in this sort of movie, that two had to get killed! So when the dianoga got Luke I actually thought he might be a goner! And when the hook stuff was going on, since by that time the movie had been going for so long and from what I overheard I thought one main character was already supposed to be dead, I thought maybe this was it for him hah.

(As for the infamous Biggs scene where they talk on Tatooine. I definitely never saw that in any theatrical release, I'm 100% sure of that. (That said I don't want to totally doubt anyone since I know how it feels with all the grief I get over the grappling hook incident. I wonder if maybe just maybe it had been in some cut for a few weeks at the starts at one of the other eight premieres??? I'd be doubtful other than I'd feel hypocritical since I'd be saying they made up the biggs thing when everyone tells me I made up the grappling hook thing. There have to be some other people who can back me up on the grappling hook somewhere!))

plus the pacing got changed and the music broken up

In my mind this was far and away the worst change in the SE's. FOr the most part I don't really go to crazy about the changes (for one, Mos Eisley WAS supposed to be a very crowded and bustling space port, etc.) The baby talk lines by the new band in ROTJ were pretty ridiculous too though.

But us back our "Bring my shuttle!" line at the least. Even if he insists on keeping the pace ruining rest of it there is no reason to not go back to million billion trillion times better original line. The new line has none of the proper emotion, it sounds weird not quite like Vader, it's too wordy and not something Vader would say at that moment and again Bring My Shuttle had some of the most ferocious intensity of any line Vader ever delivered!

And I'm sorry but it still makes 100% perfect sense even in the new version, what are people talking about when they say it doesn't work? What is he going to suddenly stop dead in teh hall after saying that and they will squeeze a giant shuttle into the hallway for him to get onto? No, he just means bring my shuttle to the docking bay that I am walking to a t the moment.

Stampede said:

 

I never understood the point of this scene at all. The original had a suitably sullen/disappointed Vader making his way back to his ship. Never one for small talk (or pleasantries it seems) he utters "Bring my shuttle." I mean, he has failed the Emperor, unburdened a harsh truth to his son (after cutting his hand off first) watched said son then plunging to a possible death...

At the same time, his leverage is escaping, his son is hanging on for his life (I'm sure Vader could sense he was still alive...) I just find it hard to believe he would really care for his Star Destroyer to stop what they are doing and set up a parade for his return. I mean, if he had come jogging out of the shuttle, shoving the officer out of his way so he could quickly get to the destroyers command centre, then maybe I would have bought it instead of tacking on an unused scene of Jerjerrod (?!?) from Jedi. I have seen people praising this scene as an well used addition to the film. Am I missing some great potential in this shot? What reminded me of this is that the Wookieepedia and EU material have retconned Jerjerrod to have really been present in Empire the whole time. 

Also, his voice when he commands his destroyer to prepare for his arrival sounds off to me.

yeah, of all the changes this is the one that really annoys me.

"Bring my shuttle" was one of the fiercest sounding readings JEJ ever gave and they cut it out!!!! And stick in the single worst lamest sounding reading ever of the new lines which don't even fit into the story as well. And was there a single person who ever got confused by what Lucas thought needed to be spelled out in the new scene?

I really miss that "Bring my shuttle" line it just fit perfectly and had such a perfect reading!

zombie84 said:

R2 canyon scene:

http://petergaultney.smugmug.com/Movies/historic/Star-Wars-at-The-Senator/K7PG2338/948667790_SRJST-M.jpg

Looks pretty dark!

The canyon scene always was dark, it was supposed to be a very late evening, almost night scene. The early home video transfers totally messed it up.

Moth3r said:

timdiggerm said:

I was there.

1. From what I've read, it was actually the 1981 re-release print, as it had "EPISODE IV - A NEW HOPE" and "Close the blast doors! Close the blast doors!" was missing.

"Close the blast doors" was missing in the first 1977 run as well - it didn't appear until the mono mix, which was finished some time after the Dolby mixes.

The 1981 print you saw probably had the original 1977 Dolby Stereo sound mix.  

Nope "Close the blast doors, close the blast doors! .... Open the blast doors, open the blast doors!" was there in the original 70mm Dolby 6 channel on opening day.

(as was Luke missing the first grappling hook throw, which has never appeared in any other version, not in any of the 35mm prints no matter when they were release, nor in any of the home versions- Lucas decided that it made Luke's kills appear to feeble and decided he wanted his skills to seem more amazing there after all; the original scene was longer and more dramatic since more suspense was built up over a more extended period of time as the stormtroopers slowly propped the door open)