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Hans Solberg

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<em>The Empire Strikes Back</em> has a similar problem to <em>The Force Awakens</em>, and it isn't really talked about that much.

FreezingTNT2 said:

One of the main problems of The Force Awakens is that it undermines Return of the Jedi by undoing the happy ending of the latter and the accomplishments of Luke, Leia, and Han, by bringing back the Empire and confirming that they were never defeated at all. The Empire Strikes Back did the exact same thing to the original movie, by bringing back the Empire and confirming that they were never defeated at all.

In a “real” world the emperor would have been unable to get enough money to continue the war while he still had not payed for the first death star. Taxing the empire too much would cause recession, “printing” money to spend would cause inflation.

No seriously I think the problem people have with TFA is that the empire is back under a new name and the republic is reduced to the resistance, ie the same status as at the beginning of ANH/SW1. Which flags for a lack of creativity, as well as not being a logical continuation after RotJ. There’s got to be lots of other possibilities for a basic premise for the sequels, infighting within the republic, the empire (and thus the new republic) has shattered after the emperor’s death, war with an alien race, the young skywalkers uncover a conspiracy against Luke’s jedi academy, etc. Fill in what you want and can motivate. But they used the exact same premise again, with no good motivation.

Worst Ideas in Star Wars/Good Ideas that went Horribly Wrong

DominicCobb said:

Anakin has basically been, unbeknownst to Obi-wan, slowly but surely tapping >into the power of the dark side as a means to help win the Clone Wars. What if Anakin’s whole goal was to end the war, and really kinda thought he was a good man, trying to bring peace to the galaxy (words that ring hollow in ROTS as is), which is why he agreed to quickly wipe out the Jedi so that they wouldn’t quickly fall into another war? It’s funny because you can see that’s sort of Lucas’s intent but it ends up as subtext, at best.

That’s how how I would set it up. Anakin and friends (stormtrooper, Ahsoka, whoever) ends up in ever more difficult situation. This happens sometimes by chance, sometimes by the machinations of Palpatine/Dokuu. The dark side becomes Anakin’s easy way out.

However this leaves some things unhandled:

  1. Anakin’s final change. Amidala’s death is not handled well IMO in the PT.
  2. Anakin getting recruited by Palpatine.
  3. Obi-Wan denouncing Anikin/realizing he is evil.
  4. Obi-Wan possibly defeating Anakin.

3&4 are of course hinted at during the dialogue on the death star in ANH. But it does not have to be Obi-Wan that defeats Anakin. Personally I would have prefered if Obi-Wan desperatly tried to confront and save Anakin in ROtS until he sees Anakin with Palpatine or Anakin doing something that makes Obi-Wan realize Anakin is beyond hope (at least normal hope). It’s a big step going from being someone’s best friend and actively trying to kill them, a feat I don’t think Obi-Wan could perform. Vader could have ended up in a suit after some other combat(s). After all he is supposed to have hunted down and killed many jedi. For continuity at least one such combat should have been in ROtS.
The basic killing of Dokuu in ROtS is actually clever, Anakin ends up in a situation where he is pressed, with Palpatine present. Palp loses one apprentice for a better one. More should have been made of this, it should have been the turning point for Anakin.
So that is how I would have handled it. Basic clone wars setting, Anakin often steaming with battle rage, Palpatine gets “kidnapped”, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka gets knocked out (with a little help from Palp). Dokuu prepares to kill them, Anakin releases his anger and gets recruited by Palpatine. Obi-Wan does not realize this until late in the film, with Yoda warning him. Obi-Wan tries most of the film trying to find a “cure” for his friend, but sees Anakin killing another jedi and walking off with Palp and realizes Anakin is lost, “a master of evil”.

Why don't people hate the Palpatine re-casting in ESB yet despise Force ghost Anakin's re-casting in RotJ?

FreezingTNT2 said:

People hate the re-casting of Anakin’s Force ghost in the 2004-present re-releases of Return of the Jedi, mainly because it is disrespectful to the now-deceased Sebastian Shaw, yet like the re-casting of Palpatine in the 2004-present re-releases The Empire Strikes Back. I don’t understand: why do people like the re-casting of Palpatine in The Empire Strikes Back if it is also disrespectful to his two now-dead actors, yet despise the re-casting of Anakin’s ghost if it is disrespectful to Sebastian Shaw? Can someone explain to me why?

Simply put, if you watch only RotJ or watch the movies in release order, the Hayden change makes no sense.
Shaw is revealed when Luke removes Vader’s mask. So a viewer knows that Shaw is Vader (David Prowse and JEJ is also Darth Vader, but we never see them), there is no connection to Hayden Christiansen, so when he suddenly appears in the Special edition it’s a total disconnect. Who is that? It’s not so much about disrespect to Shaw, as a continuity error introduced.
It also feels like a vanity change for George Lucas, like a banner rolling “Go watch my Other Star Wars trilogy to understand this scene! GL.”

As for the emperor change, I have no problem with the original effect, I prefer moviemakers NOT changing their films in retrospect apart from cleanups and directors editions. As a change, though, it has fewer problems. This is the first reveal of the emperor and he is introduced enough, while still remaining mysterious and threatening. (edit: i do avoid watching the SEd if I can)

If you could only remove one SE change...?

For me it’s Haydens ghost. Been said already, but for someone who only watches IV or sees the movies in the correct order IV-V-VI-I-II-III, this is a complete “What, who is that?”. You need to see AotC or RotS to understand who it is. And even if you do, it’s hard or impossible to understand why Yoda and Ben are old, but Anakin is young.

MaxRiibo said:

This is really hard, but if I could remove only one thing, it would probably be the Jabba scene in A New Hope. Jabba Looks wrong to me here, doesn’t matter if it is the 1997 or 2004 version. The scene itself is also bad and pointless. Why would Jabba show up in person in Mos Eisley? Seems out of character with how he is depicted in Episode VI. The worst however is, that you see him here in the first place. It was better to only hear about him in the first two movies and finally see him in the third. This added scene takes away the surprise for new viewers. They also shoehorned in Boba Fett.

I agree, even if it is my second choice. This is a total cringe-fest, a showcase for why CGI in movies can be not only bad, but awful. Not only does Han walk and wave his hands inside of Jabba, he pleads for his life while stepping on Jabbas tail? Why not edit out that part? Switch to one of Jabba’s goon’s preparing to shoot Han, whatever. This scene was wisely left out of the theatrical release.

What if TFA is awful?

We follow standard imperial procedure for infiltrating potentially hostile planets.

  1. First we send in the real nerds, the Forlorn hope, in a scouting mission.
  2. If they do not come back, we can assume they all fell asleep and the movie is awful
  3. If they do come back, we read and listen to their reports.
  4. If it is good, we go in full force.
  5. If it is bad, we spend the next twenty years sniping at George Lucas and J.J. Abrams from the rooftops and the forums.
Guess The Titles the STAR WARS Sequels... just for fun.

VIII. Children of the Force
IX. God Emperor of the Force
X. Extended Peter Jackson stretch edition.

No wait.
VIII. Star wars - A new generation
IX. Star wars - Millenium voyager.
Hmm, taken.
VIII. Backstroke of the West
IX. Surfboard of the East.

No, seriously
VIII. The new empire (or Knights of the New empire).
IX. In the balance.

I saw someone was on the balance concept already on the first page. Implying the fate of the Republic or the FaraAwayLongAgo Galaxy hangs in the balance, but in reality being about the balance of the force.