GregK

Based on various reports at the time of the bluray re-release, it sounds as if the first restoration was a photo chemical (film) restoration from YCM separation elements, while the last release was from the camera neg, now made possible via digital restoration techniques that are not possible when doing a 100% analog photochemical restoration.

This thread has interesting info:
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/community/threads/a-peek-at-journey-to-the-center-of-the-earth-redux.339467/page-2

TT also did a re-release shortly after that review, which was a significant improvement over the first bluray release in virtually every area:
http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Journey-to-the-Center-of-the-Earth-Blu-ray/120306/

Slightly OT, but for anyone who enjoys John Carptenter’s soundtrack, a slightly different version just popped up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_QOVaBA98

The Scream Factory release certainly has the least amount of cropping of all of the previous video releases. Contrast has been slightly upped, which for me is neither here nor there, but they drop the ball big time in one area: The audio.

Audio options are 5.1 and 2.0 - both in lossless DTS-HD. But the two channel mix is *not* the original Dolby Surround mix, and is simply a downmix of the newer 5.1 remix. ... Where's the facepalm icon when you need one?

Any word on the laserdisc audio for FLASH GORDON?

A second vote for including the DTS-ES discrete mix .. at least as a possible secondary audio track.

The 6.1 discrete mix is unique in that it was made especially for the then-new DTS-ES discrete system found in the then latest receivers. Mi Casa (who also did the Lord of the Rings mixes) went back and tailored the new 6.1 mix to take advantage of the new discrete center back channel.

After the 6.1 DTS DVD release, this mix to my knowledge was never used again. Later versions were either 6.1 matrix or 5.1.

So I'm all for the original 5.1 mix and that should of course be there. But given a DTS-ES discrete track wouldn't take up a considerable amount of space and is already tailored to the theatrical version, it too would be cool to have on tap... ;-)

PDB said:

dvdmike said:

I thought we had found the cinema DTS for this flick.

 Isn't it suppose to be cinema version of DTS-ES also (matrix I think not discrete 6.1)?

If it is a pain I personally wouldn't worry too much about a subtitle scope masking option, as the current bluray provides the Scope version quite nicely.

After a number of delays I was finally able to check your disc, Andrea.

Used image burn, and tried it out on three different bluray players - 1 vizio and 2 different Sony models. Am happy to report all three bluray players played this disc without any issues!


AUDIO:

The assorted soundtracks made for an interesting comparison, and the uncompressed PCM track was by far the best extra feature. The Fox produced region-1 bluray also offers the original mix as an option, but at a lowly 192 kb/s bitrate. Only here is the original audio mix given its full proper due with an HD image.

Flexicon9 brings up some prominent differences between the original Dolby Surround encoded 2-channel mix and the newer 5.1 remix. To add to that list:

* When Snake is injected with the virus, the injection noise is totally different in the remix.

* When in the basement looking for the president, Snake sees the beginning of what is likely a rape sequence. The sound is distinctly hallow and phasey sounding in the remix.

Back in post #37, I pondered if the HDnet 5.1 audio used the original 4.0 printmaster, or was simply an upmix made from the original Lt/Rt 2.0 Dolby Surround mix.

The discrete possibility is not totally unprecedented, as a number of features originally downmixed to Lt/Rt Dolby Surround for 35mm and home video still survive in their original discrete 4.0 form, and would have none of the channel leakage issues inherent in all matrix / Dolby Surround mixes, but aside from that would still be the same original soundmix.

The other option already mentioned is the original Lt/Rt Dolby Surround mix was matrix decoded by HDnet using a professional Dolby Surround decoder or compatible counterpart. This is typically called an upmix and is also not unprecedented, as Universal HD and TCM do this on occasion. The reason this is done is the proper decoding is done ahead of time so sent audio is always configured as 5.1 and there is no worry a local cable provider or home listener doesn't inadvertently send or listen to a Dolby Surround track as simple stereo.

I listened to the HDnet 5.1 audio version provided on the disc and unplugged the center speaker. With discrete multi-channel audio, unplugging the center speaker should result in virtually no dialog ..at least with a production such as this one. But an upmix will always have a little bit of leakage, as it is mathematically impossible to 100% accurately and consistently matrix decode 4 discrete channels out of 2, although the matrix Dolby decoding is always getting better. Based on what I've heard, I believe this is an upmix, albeit a good one. If one has a more advanced Dolby Pro-Logic decoder, I would suggest listening to the PCM mix, although the HDnet was an interesting listen and with it being only 384kb/s Dolby Digital, the discs's overall bit budget was not overly taxed by it's inclusion.

VIDEO

As you've noted before, previous video versions were presented lighter with a higher gamma when compared to the recent bluray release. I don't mind the darker timing of the new release and think it is likely closer to the original theatrical presentation, but also understand how some may not like it, especially depending on a given individual's display device and given settings. This is likely why previous versions were altered the way they were. And to that effect this release is much closer to the previous video releases, and appears to be a very faithful reproduction of the Universal HD version I had viewed a while back. I agree with Matt that when projected this version may begin to shows its HDnet source compression limitations, but its the best reproduction of this given transfer available, and you've done a great job preserving it.

I also think you made the right call in not trying to borrow a sliver of picture info from the bluray, as the test results shown previously also showed a sliver of the bottom going away in the process. I'll always want maximum height info when compared to maximum side info. It also made your task easier as well, and keeps this a very faithful and pure preservation of the HDnet recording.

SUMMARY

I've purchased EFNY a few times now. P&S laserdisc, letterbox LD, VHS, DVD, DVD again for the remastering, and finally bluray. Your disc is without hesitation an excellent companion piece to store next to the official bluray. Thumbs up!!

Did the HDnet version have a Dolby Digital discrete mix?

I noticed when it was previously available On Demand via cable, the audio was coded as discrete Dolby 5.1, but it sounded like a 4.0 mix, with mono surrounds. And the effects and directional cues were all the original mix.

So this was either:

A) The discrete 4.0 mix used for the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix

or

B) A (Dolby) upmix from the Dolby Stereo Lt/Rt master

In either case, it sounded good.

Given I saved *just* the movie for this project, the MGM logo in my given case was ommitted. In the new R1 bluray file structure, the MGM open is its own entity. But once I edited that section out of the mono wav file ..again for my given way I needed / used it.. the results were PERFECT! The wav audio offers a lossless presentation of the original mix, and I am still able to sample the new 5.1 remix with a touch of a button. It is amazing how many changes were done, and by keeping both mixes, it is very easy to switch back and fourth.

And I will begrudgingly admit to this as well: While the original mono mix should have and *always* needs to be included, being able to switch back and fourth did bring me a little more appreciation for the new very aggressive 5.1 remix. Not a complete appreciation, as I still prefer the original sound effects and opening music cues, but having both options really makes a difference.

Chewtobacca said:

Does anyone have any comments on the DTS-HD MA 5.1 on the BD of Forbidden Planet (1956)?

Not to muddy the waters any further, but IF I recall correctly, the non-anamorphic DVD release of THE THING was a true discrete 4.1 port over, with no split surrounds. It is encoded as DD 5.1, but only has mono surrounds.

Later mixes were altered where the surrounds had some minor surround left/right activity. I don't know if it was a full blown remix or if simple directionality was added to the surrounds with the mix other than that left "as-is", as was done with CLOSE ENCOUNTERS.

Have been wanting to compare the two mixes and reconfirm my recollections, but the schedule here has been chaotic as of late...

The region 1 bluray of ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK has the original 2.0 Dolby Surround track as a secondary audio option, with the new 5.1 track being the default mix. Thankfully Fox releases a lot of MGM material here in the states, so the original mix tends to go along for the ride.

With that said, the original audio mix on the bluray is lossy Dolby Digital. IIRC, it is 192kb/s DD. So if someone were to grab the laserdisc audio and keep it lossless and/or pure PCM, that would be a sonic step up from what is available on the bluray.

Jonno said:

Here's what I've figured out so far about Planet of the Apes:

The original movie was mixed in 4-track stereo and mono, though there is some doubt as to whether the 4-track mix ever saw the light of day (there's a discussion on that subject here: <a href="<a href="http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)"" title="www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)"" target="_blank">http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)"</a> title="www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)</a>" title="www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)</a>" target="_blank">http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=71763&forumID=1&archive=0)</a></a> - at least the majority of 1968 release prints were mono.

By the time home video rolled around, Chace did one of their pseudo-stereo mix jobs and this is used on all the laserdiscs that I'm aware of (which may not be exhaustive, but I've spent some time searching). DVD and Blu-ray brought questionable 5.1 mixes to the table, BUT the Blu-rays do feature the original mono mix as well so this is the best source that I'm aware of.

It's a similar story for the sequels, though in their cases there was no question of an original stereo mix since they were only ever released in mono. They too follow the path of dubious home video remixes followed by a solid preservation of the original mono on the Blu-ray.

I'm prepared to be corrected on any/all of this, particularly if anyone has more info on the original theatrical releases or laserdiscs that preserve the mono tracks as PCM - this would be especially welcome in comparison to the BDs' basic Dolby Digital.

 

captainsolo said:

For Earthquake, the two LDs have the original Sensurround mix according to the LDDB forum. The initial pan n'scan has a stereo track that actually was the original transferred directly (so you can even hear the control tones present), and the later widescreen release simply converted the mix to Dolby Surround.

captainsolo said:

So the widescreen Superman LD has the 35mm Dolby Stereo mix without split surrounds?

Has anyone checked out the mystery DTS 5.1 soundtrack yet on the 3D version?

Which mix is it? DTS theatrical? ...The previous DVD 5.1 mix? A downmix of the new 7.1 track? Or...?

One important thing to note is certain website are showing images from the Jurassic Park 3D bluray, which look to be obtained from the opposing eye view.

http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/jurassic-park-3d-blu-ray-3d-review/

This will cause some image information to be different, especially at the edges.

While I still want the original 5.1 mix, I did think the newer 7.1 mix was better than what was done in 2011. The 3-D conversion overall was pretty good.I saw this in IMAX, but it sounds like the 3D Bluray has more DNR applied.


Some sites are now showing two DTS English tracks on the 3-D Bluray. DTS-MA 7.1 and DTS 5.1. Is this true?? And if so, the question of the day is... What source is the DTS 5.1 track?

During an interview with Gary Rydstrom, he confirms a new audio mix is used for the upcoming 3D version. I could be wrong, but I'm assuming it is the same 7.1 mix used for the last Bluray.
http://www.movieweb.com/movie/jurassic-park-3d/gary-rydstrom-interview

I've added FLASH GORDON to my list. If someone has additional information on that title, I can modify it as needed.

The original FLASH GORDON mix had a wide front stage mix, sometimes with dialog being directional - often moving to the left and right speakers tracking the on-screen action. There was an anniversary region 1 DVD edition released a few years back that bled some of the right and left front into the left and right surrounds for a horse-shoe ultra wide effect. Wasn't so distracting when it is a sound effect, but sometimes on screen dialog will now go into the left or right surrounds. Haven't heard the new Bluray yet..

You are correct that the 1st XANADU release was 16x9, but was an older transfer. I'll revise my post to reflect this. The 1st release has 4.0 audio, while the second release has 5.1 audio. The original 4.0 mix didn't have the surround track continually active, when when the surrounds are active - they are certainly noticed. The new 5.1 mix pulls more front info to the back which in turn now sounds smeared and not as distinct, and many of the songs now sound different. If you get a chance, check out the latest DVD release which may be available at a local library if you want to compare. We need the first DVDs audio muxed with the 2nd DVDs video.

To answer the first post, yes- I can confirm the ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK Bluray (released in the States by Fox) also has a 2 channel mix that **is** the original Dolby Stereo mix. ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK, while being an MGM title, is thankfully released in the States by Fox. Correct music cues, effects, directional moments, etc are intact on the 2nd Dolby Digital 2.0 English track. If MGM had released it on home video via Bluray, the original track would be missing.

The same goes for virtually all Warner Brothers releases. If the soundtrack is remixed, one can almost be assured the original, be it mono or multi-track, is now out. BEN HUR won an academy award for its audio mix. So where is the original 1959 multi-channel mix? Ditched in favor of an all new 5.1 mix, fresh with all new surrounds and added sound effects. The old laserdiscs used the original mix, with the only downside being it was a Dolby Surround mixdown.

Fox region 1 releases are to be commended for (almost) always retaining original mixes. The latest PREDATOR Bluray release had some altered dialog (forget the exact spot in the movie) but they also included the original mix via a Dolby Digital 4.0 discrete track. The Star-Wars releases, of course were exempt to this general Fox policy, as Lucasfilms had full control over those releases. Vintage Scope and 70mm Fox bluray and DVD releases will sometimes have new 5.1 tracks. On occasion these remixes may center any dialog that was originally directional in nature (ie: tracked the action on screen). Sometimes the directional audio is retained, but slightly pulled in to better match the smaller TV displays. Again, thankfully most Fox releases retain a 4.0 mix.

Of personal interest to me are the two upcoming SENSURROUND titles due to be released on bluray this year: BATTLESTAR GALACTICA (1978 version) and EARTHQUAKE. For the last DVD version of Earthquake, Universal decided to do a new sub-par 5.1 remix, but included an optional 3.1 track "original Sensurround mix" which was not the original 3 track stereo mix, and the LFE channel didn't even utilize the original cue tones to trigger the original Sensurround generator. The LFE track on that track is undecoded junk. Nothing at all like the original mix which shook plaster from theater ceilings. When Battlestar Galactica was released in theaters, Sensurround had been modified to run from an optical track, with the sensurround portion DBX encoded. And for Battlestar, there were also tones to make the LFE effects directional in nature for those theaters so equipped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensurround I was able to hear Battlestar with Sensurround Type III decoding during its original run, and the directional bass cues were very apparent & effective.

When Universal released Battlestar (and Midway & Rollercoaster) they went with the rarely used Dolby 1.1 format (center channel plus LFE) which is correct. Problem is - for all three titles, the DBX type II noise reduction for the LFE tracks was never decoded. And the LFE levels are horribly low. As for the original directional bass cues? - Gone. Given new bluray releases are around the corner, I would love to see this brief audio format finally presented properly. But I'm not holding my breath.

A few people have asked about CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND, and based on my brief spot checking against an old beta hi-fi release, the mix essentially sounds the same. With that said, it sounds like on occasion they have taken the original surround track and steered to surround left or right when called for, or applied some decorrelation here or there. In short: Still very respectful to the original 70mm mix.

I've heard 2nd hand the first six STAR TREK movies on laserdisc used the 35mm mixes, while the DVDs (sans the 1st feature, which was a completly remixed directors cut) were culled from the 70mm mixes. Cannot confirm for sure, nor do I know if the 70mm mixes were used for the blurays. I can confirm Star-trek VI was one of the first movies to be tested in Dolby Digital for its theatrical run, and it does have split surround activity.


I'll wrap up with a few random titles (some that I've heard 2nd hand) have been altered, with *no* original mix included:

SUPERMAN (as most know - new effects were added, and while an "original 2.0 Surround track" was added to the DVD release, phase issues screw up the decoding. Get the LD for the best original 35mm audio mix. The 70mm mix, which was the first ever Dolby NR encoded mix with split surrounds, has never been released on any video format. While working on the DVD version, Donner found a 70mm print with split surrounds, and listened to it briefly along with the 35mm mix before opting for a remix)

TERMINATOR (as most know - new effects were added, music cues were screwed up)

CONAN THE BARBARIAN (the bluray's 5.1 remix of the original mono is a mess)

GHOSTBUSTERS

XANADU (1st DVD was original 4.0 mix, 2nd release new botched 5.1 mix)

SUSPIRIA

JURASSIC PARK (original 5.1 DTS theatrical mix ditched in favor of a 7.1 remix, some music and effect levels altered in the process)

TERMINATOR 2

HIGHLANDER (region 1) Movie was remixed in the 1990's. The AC3 LD also has the remix. At least one EU bluray has the original mix as an option.

FANTASIA (original directional Fantasound mix ditched in favor of a new remix)

GREASE

FLASH GORDON (region 1 DVD took the original wide 3 front channels and leaked them into the surrounds for a busier more active surround track. Not sure what mix is on the new Bluray)


There of course are many many more examples, but this is off the top of my head. If someone wanted to compile a master list, that would be awesome.

If anyone wants some nice custom artwork for the upcoming 3D Bluray release:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2gwJXxfnZgQ/URvq900yx_I/AAAAAAAAI94/VP5ve-O--Rs/s1600/Jurassic_Park_3D_Exclusive_Poster_IMAX_Cine_1.jpg

Another update on the Jurassic Park re-issue. This quote is from the Home Theater Forum:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/327067/ushe-announcement-jurassic-park-3d-blu-ray-combo#post_4031484

=========================
I emailed Universal to see if the 2D disc is getting the new transfer as well and it's not good news i'm afraid.

This is what they said:

Thank you for contacting us.

The 2D Blu-ray and DVD releases to be included is our upcoming "Jurassic Park" 3D package will use the master that was created for the Jurassic Park Ultimate Trilogy in 2011.

We appreciate your interest and hope that you will continue to enjoy our releases.

SIncerely,

Consumer Relations
UNIVERSAL STUDIOS HOME ENTERTAINMENT
=========================

Based on this report, for those who want the remastered version, the 2D version (for those who want the movie in 2-D) will need to be obtained from the 3D Bluray. If playback on 2D gear is restricted, that will be able to be bypassed with certain software.

borisanddoris said:

Thanks GregK!  Jurassic Park is my favorite film.  Having owned many different versions of it on video, I've become very familiar with the mix.  When I first heard the 7.1, I knew it was wrong.  Not bad, just wrong.

Thanks again to everyone who helped me and all of us realize this dream.  I'm curious to see if Universal uses the original 5.1 or a remix for the upcoming 3D re-release.  One thing is for sure: the trailer's 2D image looks to have improved vastly over the Blu-ray video master.  With any luck, we'll get a nice, new Blu-ray as well!  

Looking forward to 20 years of Jurassic Park!  Life will find a way...