ElDonante

+1 for usenet if that’s allowed 😃, I never made it to the spleen 😦

I've been away too long ;)

Awesome work, guys!

I haven't had a chance to read through this entire thread just yet, just wondering if anyone's taken on doing a preservation of The Matrix.  I see the disc on the list and I had been happy with it's home release audio, but this is a movie that had its color changed somewhere between the theatrical release and it's home video HD release.  Some horrible green filters were added.  Having gone to the theater quite a few times to see The Matrix, I vividly remember the colors being more red/blue shifted than what was on the HD-DVD and Blu-ray.  My copy on LD looks closer to what I remember in the theater, but a 2.39:1 movie on LD leaves lots of detail out.  There's also a TV version of the movie in HD that looks close, but with a bit of DNR -- that one is not matted to 2.39:1 either.  Would be pretty cool to attempt a version that combines the Cinema DTS audio with a color corrected HD version of the film.  Any other details on the original color scheme?

My copy of the 3D Bluray won't arrive until Thursday and I don't have a BD drive in this machine anymore, so I won't be able to rip it and adjust, but...

...what I'd do is rip the audio track, check it's frame amount, then add the difference as silence to the front of the DTS track.  They should both end at the same spot.

I wonder how hard it would be to do a scan of a print ourselves.  The cheating method would be to telesync with an HD camera adjusted properly, but it would only be 1080p and wouldn't be a true scan, but maybe closer to theatrically accurate than what we're being fed.

What are you using to capture?

Someone should just get ahold of a print and scan it, we can combine efforts for any necessary cleanup.

The 3D Blu-ray comes with a 2D disc.  Does anyone know what was used for that disc?  Is it the same master as the 3D version or the same disc from 2011/2012?

Can we have a link to the original YouTube video?

I do recall the TV version being edited in that manner.

Hey Guys and Gals,

I've been MIA and I do apologize.  Kinda struggling in my work life which is pretty much my only life (up to 4h/day traveling to work, up to 14h/day of work, ugh).  I'd really like to hand the 97 DTS project off.  I don't get a winter break like the rest of the country because I provide Internet services for people all around the world and they're working when this country is on break or sleeping, so I do not see a time when I'll be able to get this done.

...unless, of course, someone in the Chicagoland area wants to give an IT guy a job where I can wear jeans and a t-shirt and not have to sit in traffic for hours :P

If anyone is up for the challenge, it's pretty easy to do, just really time consuming.

P.S.
When did the average wage for IT work become less than what I used to make as a teenager working part time at a mall? 

I do ;)

Plus I have the CAV, CLV, and DTS versions to work with, though there aren't many differences besides some text and logos here and there.

No days off till next Sunday, though, so unless I find the will, there won't be a way until them :(

If anyone else wants to do it, that's cool too... cause not only will I need the time, I'll also have to hope I'm in creativity mode at the same time in order to do it.

I can do that, but it'll be with The GIMP and It'll be a week or so before I can get to it.

I've got two ideas for it.  One is a standard BD cover, the other is a thick-photo paper folding jacket similar to a CD Single, but representative of a LaserDisc / vinyl jacket.

Jetrell Fo said:

What about if I just want to to do this on my HD so I can watch it from there?  Will I still have to convert the video to 23.976fps to synch up the audio with it? 

As long as the lengths and framerates of the audio and video match, you should be good to go.  You will likely want to use a container format, like MKV, to contain the streams, rather than trying to mux to a single MPEG2 muliplexed stream.

It all depends on how you have your BD player setup.  If you set the player to bitstream, then you'll send the DTS-HD MA signal to the TV for the TV to do the decoding.  If it can handle decoding it, you'll hear a downmixed lossless version.  If it can only handle decoding DTS, then you'll hear downmixed lossy.  If neither, then you'll probably get no sound.  In that event, you can have the BD player handle the decoding and output to a variety of formats which would include PCM stereo and PCM surround.

One thing's for sure, you'll need to ensure that you aren't using dynamic range compression.

To get the best experience, you'll want to use a nice surround sound system with speakers that match the room acoustics.  My personal choice is a mix of horn loaded Klipsch and Bic America speakers driven by a Denon receiver.  (Yeah, yeah, timbre matching is best, but when I like what I like, then that's what I go with :P )

hairy_hen said:

 

 

About the 1997 Star Wars mix: yes, I would indeed be interested in the DTS to use for my 70mm project.  I've been limited to using the 384 kbps AC3 from laserdisc, so a higher bitrate version would certainly be a good thing, if it can be managed.  I only actually need the LFE and not the main channels, since that's the only part that the SE is actually used for.

hairy, I'm not familiar with your 70mm project, but I will surely check it out.  I do have one comment, however.  The LFE content from the DTS track may not be entirely synchronized with the AC3 track.  There may be splices at different time codes which may lead to sway throughout the entire movie that would have to be edited and adjusted by hand.  I'd recommend sticking to one mix for the sake of synchronization between channels.

edit:

I'm now familiar with the soul of your project and understand what you're going for... and the work that you put into it :)  Since you will be editing by hand, the LFE from the DTS may be worthwhile.

NeonBible said:

Ok I managed to get it working.  Since I do not have a BD drive I had to get the movie from 'elsewhere'.  My first video file had messed up FPS setting which is why it was failing with tsmuxer.  I found another one which reported it correctly as 23.976fps.

Once question, when I view the codec info in VLC, is it supposed to report the track as DTS-HD MA? It simply says DTS audio on mine.  I didn't check box marked 'downconvert to DTS'.

You'd have to have the proper CODECs installed to decode the DTS-HD MA audio, my understanding is if the transport cannot handle DTS-HD MA, it will default to decoding the DTS core (lossy) stream that's contained within the DTS-HD MA track.  In that case, you're still hearing the original mix, it's just not lossless.

If anyone notices any discrepancies with sync and the DTS-HD MA track, please update the thread.  I was only able to test using 5.1 PCM because I only have access to free and open source tools.  I'm confident that the DTS-HD MA track that borisanddoris was able to encode is identical, but I won't be able to test it out until I finish the download and perform the same steps you all are taking ;)

Jetrell Fo said:

Okay, since I don't have a Bluray drive on my pc, could I use my Japan Superbit DVD to sync up this audio and how would I do it properly?  I really want to give this DTS soundtrack a spin.

 

It would require some work, but you'd be able to do it.  You wouldn't be left with a Superbit quality video, though.  You'd have to do somewhat of an inverse telecine, get that framerate down to 23.976fps, then you'd have to make cuts to the audio or video to make sure they're the same length.  Your final project would have to be output as an HD compliant stream to utilize the DTS-HD MA track, as DVD spec doesn't allow for DTS-HD MA.

Alternatively, you could extract the core DTS track from the DTS-HD MA file and use that to create a DVD version with the original theatrical mix.

Another alternative to creating a DVD version retaining the video quality of the Superbit DVD would be to: 1) extract the core DTS track, 2) use eac3to to convert the audio framerate from 23.976 to 29.976, 3) make edits to the audio track to match the video, 4) multiplex the audio track with the Superbit video track.

Wow, lots of responses :)

borisanddoris explained things pretty well and this couldn't have been done without him!  Big thanks for allowing this project to see completion.

Everything was done according to a DTS whitepaper.  That is to say, the front channels were left alone, the rear channels were attenuated by 3db, and the LFE extracted from the rears using an 80Hz crossover filter.

Since the source disc was 44.1KHz at 24.000fps, and the destination was to be 48KHz at 23.976fps, some adjustments were made in order to keep audio video synchronization and allow for Blu-ray spec audio.  The upsampling to 48KHz was done with the highest quality, keeping original pitch and ensuring there was no jitter.  Framerate conversion was done with the eac3to tool and it did a remarkable job.

The six tracks, which came on 7 reels, were then spliced together using frame accurate editing techniques in Audacity.  This was done simultaneously using multitrack mode and it took quite a few tries to figure out each reel's splice point since each reel ended with a beep and began with a repeat of the previous reel's ending.

After the editing was done, the movie was tested several times to ensure synchronization throughout... speaking of the movie... (how's that for a segue? pretty bad, eh?)

This preservation requires that you have the original, store-bought Blu-ray.  It also requires that you rip the movie to your hard disk via your preferred method of ripping.  You'll only need the movie, not anything else.  My vote goes to MakeMKV since it'll work on Linux, Windows, or Mac OS X.  Many people fancy AnyDVD HD (which came in very handy when I was frightened that my HD-DVD player would stop working one day and I can confirm that it is a solid piece of ripping software).  Once ripped, you'll have a large 20GB+ M2TS video file.  Keep it in a memorable place.

Since I love cross-platform tools, the next tool you'll need is tsMuxer.  tsMuxer is the tool you'll use to multiplex (mux) your DTSMA file with your M2TS file.  If you're using the GUI, simply drag your M2TS and DTSMA files to the "Tracks:" section of tsMuxer's GUI.  From here, you'll be able to select your destination type.  The choice is ultimately yours, however I chose M2TS because I will not be exporting to physical media.  You can choose to output in a Blu-ray or AVCHD compliant file structure for exporting to physical media if you so desire.

One thing I must mention before signing off.  There was one change made.  The original DTS bumper was, well, bumped.  Since this track is meant for those with the original Blu-ray disc, it had to be cut since it does not appear in the original Blu-ray.  There were plans to include this, however the original bumper is not the same as any bumper I've found.  It's a shortened version of "The Digital Experience" which clocks in at around 19 seconds (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtzEa62KXBE).

As for the '97 DTS mixes... what would they be mixed to?  I'd certainly be up for the challenge this summer, depending on the destination (Blu-ray, De-Specialized Editions, something else?).  It should take about a week per mix to get them just right.

I'm going to try to have a more detailed instruction set before tomorrow afternoon if anyone thinks it's necessary.  If there is demand, I can also write a script to automate the conversion.

Freax said:

Ok, this is how you do it, I just made an account so I can tell you guys how.

I've done this before so I know it works, I've got a Pioneer CLD-D606 with an Optical AC-3 audio output.

You buy yourself a MiniDisc player with a 3.5mm Optical input (You will need an adapter to go from Optical SP-DIF to 3.5mm Optical input Plug that into your MiniDisc player and load the Minidisc up with a 1GB MD disc, then setup your Minidisc player to save in WAV format.Rinse and repeat until the 1GB Minidisc is full, then copy the uncompressed PCM .WAV file off of the MiniDisc player onto your PC and edit it and sync it up to your bluray rip copy.

I have apsolutley no idea if it will work with DTS 5.1 audio, all I know is that once I loaded up a Dolby Digital copy of Terminator 2 on LD and got audio recording directly to my MD recorder in WAV. which is Stereo.

It sounded freakin great through the headphones too by the way. which were plugged into the MD player's audio output.

 

 

This will work for a PCM stereo track, however Dolby Digital is output via coax only and requires a separate AC3 RF Demodulator.  It may work for DTS, again, if there's no shifting of the audio resolution at the MD's optical input.

It should work if there's no funny business happening at the CD recorder's spdif-in port.  There can't be any resampling at the input.  I do believe resampling has to occur afterward, though.  I read that you have to convert to 48khz, precisely remove all silence, and then place in a DTS container.  There's a chance it might just work, though, but you'd need to start the recording at the exact time that DTS encoding is discovered.

The older drivers were for Windows XP and I've since moved to Windows 7.  The card hardly worked in Linux, but that was was two years ago.  Still, I'd prefer to go with a known-working card so that I'm not always running the same tests to figure out if the card's rate resampling has ill effects on the DTS stream.

NeonBible said:

Did you know there is an R8 DVD from China which has a different DTS track to the others?

I read about it and apparently its comparable to the Japanese Superbit DVD.  Has anyone got this and know how it compares?

I've read about the R8 and Superbit releases.  Some say that the R8's are actually better than the Superbits.  I haven't come across them though.

Unfortunately, I haven't made any progress in ripping DTS.  My old sound card has new drivers that seem to have removed the SPDIF input entirely :(  My only choice is to find one of those sound cards that have drivers to allow it.

If anyone in the Chicago area has one of the aforementioned sound cards and wants to arrange a meet-up ripping session, that would be cool.

As suspected, it's not as easy as recording the encoded DTS stream from SPDIF as PCM.

At this point, I've recorded the DTS track in various resolutions and rates and tried running the resulting PCM/WAV files through BeSplit 0.9b8.  With each file, BeSplit hangs when trying to handle as DTS.

I've also tried playing the encoded stream directly to my receiver, even starting a DTS encoded stream for the header input and then using a Toslink switch to toggle to the already playing PCM/WAV with DTS "noise."  Nothing.

After some more digging, I've found a single post in a thread on the doom9 forum which hints that only certain sound cards can handle a DTS input stream.  My MacBook's SPDIF-in can't do this and my Asus Xonar Essence STX most likely can't either, but I do have an Auzentech card lying around somewhere, so I will try this card sometime soon.  If that doesn't work, I'll buy the Prodigy 7.1 HiFi, noted in the post:

 

i am able to record DTS using a Prodigy 7.1 HiFi soundcard with a Toslink connected directly from laserdisc player (have an Audigy2ZS but it doesn't have a digital input). Under the card's Config, selected EXT and it automatically detected the Toslink connection. Set to 44100

Recorded a 16-bit 44100 stereo wav in Cool Edit Pro 2.1, and it recorded great. Saved as a Windows PCM Wave, ran the wave through BeSliced using BeSplit 0.9 beta 8 and it created a .dts file that worked - older builds didn't.

http://besweet.notrace.dk/BeSplitv0.9b8.zip

Used eac3to to extract wavs, used Cool Edit Pro to cut out silence, etc. down to the millisecond and resample all wavs to 48000, then DTS Suite to make DTS-HD MA file (didn't want to go from lossy to lossy, so I have "lossless" of "lossy")

---

Last edited by sierranevcellie; 19th January 2010 at 20:41.

 

borisanddoris said:

As a big fan of the movie, I was disappointed to not see the original 5.1 mix preserved, but instead we were given only a new 7.1 option.  While this mix is good, it's definitely very different.  Some sound effects have been put in different places (see the raptor paddock scene) and a weird echo added to dialogue in many spots.

Either way, I love the sound of the DTS LaserDisc, and would like to eventually sync it with the Blu-ray image, which was not perfect but better than any other release.  Of course, I don't have the sorts of equipment to do such a thing but I would love to at least try and preserve the LD track, but I'm not sure entirely what sort of sound card I'd need to do it.  Preferably, I'd like to keep it in the digital domain so there is no sort of quality loss.  It is my understanding that the track is encoded on a LD at 1200kbps, disguised as 44.1khz LPCM.  

Of course, if I could master this, I'd love to do it for several other titles with exceptionally good DTS LD tracks (Titanic, Apollo 13, GoldenEye).

Let the discussion begin!

 

I created a forum account because I am embarking on the same project!  The Blu-ray DTS track sounded way too weird, especially after seeing JP in 35mm/DTS as a midnight movie over the summer.  I haven't played my LD/DTS version of JP in a while, but in comparison to the Blu-ray, it sounded like certain sounds had their volume increased for placement in a 7.1 field -- I downmix 7.1 to 5.1 because I don't have a room large enough for 7.1, so this resulted in sounds that were too loud to be realistic.  It's disappointing that the original DTS mix wasn't included.

I've also read that DTS is disguised as PCM, but I'm currently revisiting the standards.  I'm not sure if this will be as easy as capturing the PCM stream through SPDIF and then transcoding to DTS, but after reading "The Inconvenient Truth about SPDIF Input!" on avsforum, I'm almost certain that it can't be that easy.

I had also thought about recording each channel, but was also concerned about bit-perfection.

On the film-tech forum, there are threads about projectionists that kept the DTS discs that are supposed to go back with the film, I wonder if theater DTS is decoded the same way as DTS for the consumer market.  If it is, then this project can be as easy as finding a Jurassic Park DTS CD-ROM.

Can't wait for updates to this thread!  I'll be sure to post my findings when I begin my recording tests.