Ebaillargeon82

AntcuFaalb said:

Nobody here knows. Shoot an e-mail to LoC and ask them. After they reply to you, come back and post your findings in this thread.

 Ok, they tell me the print has a stereo optical track, non-Dolby. But I don't believe there's any noticeable difference between Dolby stereo and non-Dolby stereo (if there is, please correct me if I'm wrong).

I read an article about someone seeing a copyright deposit print of the 1977 Star Wars film on the Save Star Wars website. This made me become curious, is the audio on that copyright deposit print in mono, or is the audio in stereo?

Hoping someone can answer my question.

Yes, sir. I think this Despecialized Edition is going to work out fine. I, uh, was also thinking about our agreement about preserving the original mix forever. And if this Despecialized Edition does work out, I want it to replace the original camera negative this year.

Ok, in regards to the real world, I decided it would be less confusing if fans (including myself) only need to download the Despecialized Edition and not bother with all those confusing .srts (they confused me). So, I decided to convert the MKV file into an AVI file. I then uploaded it on YouTube.com, but Fox almost immediately blocked it on copyright grounds. Then, I uploaded it on archive.org.

So you can watch the Despecialized Edition at:           * DELETED *

For some reason, I can't stream the video (as of this writing). But fans can still download it. No need to download all the confusing stuff (well, to me, it was confusing) that I mentioned above.

hairy_hen said:

Well, the negative doesn't have any soundtrack attached to it.  The mix would have been recorded onto reels of multitrack tape running in synch with the picture (not the actual negative but a copy, to reduce physical wear and tear), which were then put through further processing and duped onto printmasters for each film format the movie was due to be released in.  The 4-track most likely exists as audio only, without any actual film being attached to it.

As a point of interest, the 4-track was also the main source for the 1997 Special Edition mix.  If you listen to any part of the movie that hasn't been re-edited or had additional sound effects piled on top of it, you can hear that it is extremely similar to the 35mm stereo and 70mm versions.  Because of this, it makes for a much better listening experience than the DVD or Bluray (which are outright terrible).

 Speaking of which, are the original 1977 35mm stereo prints, the original 1977 70mm stereo prints, and the original 1977 mono prints all lost, or do prints still exist?

hairy_hen said:

As I said above, they worked on the 4-track master first.

That is the original mix.

Both the 35mm stereo and 70mm 6-track versions were then largely copied from it, with some changes in presentation made to each, mainly for technical reasons.  The metaphor of twins is an apt one in this case, since they were completed within a very short time of each other.  The only reason they weren't done simultaneously is that it wasn't physically possible to print more than one mix at a time with the equipment the mixers had available.

If you really want to hear the actual, true first mix of the film, you'd need to go to LFL and pull out the 4-track master tape and listen to that.  This would be the only way to hear the 'most original' copy of their work, if overly specific definitions are to be used.  It would sound very similar to the stereo mix except with discrete channels and an unrestricted dynamic range.  (But no bass.)  The stereo version is a compromise derived from this master, made in order to accommodate the limitations of a delivery format which could not contain the full mix in its entirety.

Rumor has it that some 35mm prints were actually made in 4-track magnetic format.  This would yield a sound closer to the source, but it still wouldn't have been as powerful as the 70mm, owing to the slower speed of the film going through the projector (in analog sound, slower speed equals lesser fidelity), and the lack of dedicated bass tracks.

In the end, arguing over strict originality is silly, because no released version is completely identical to what was first put on tape.  It becomes a question of which do you value more: the fact that one printmaster was finalized a day or two before the next, or that one of the mixes retains the superior sound quality and power of the source and is further optimized for that purpose?  The fact is that both the 35mm stereo and 70mm 6-track versions were heard in theatres on the film's opening day of May 25, 1977.  Both were sourced from the same master copy.  Neither is entirely the same as the version they were derived from.  Both mixes provide a great aural experience for the film, depending what kind of sound system you have and what its capabilities are.  How much more 'original' could you possibly get?  

(The mono mix doesn't really apply to this discussion, since it was remixed entirely from scratch and didn't appear in theatres until a month later.  Sam Shaw, who is credited as the film's Supervising Sound Editor, didn't even work on that version.  The multitude of changes make it the earliest example of revisionism in the film's long history of being altered.  Nonetheless it was part of the theatrical run and the only mix heard by many people at the time, so it 'partially' counts.)

At any rate, the really remarkable thing about all this is that we've been able to preserve or approximate a great deal of the work that was done on the film back then, allowing it to be seen and heard at a quality level that was unthinkable even a few years ago.  Recognizing that the goal of somehow achieving a perfect, 100% authentic most original ever version is an ephemeral one at best, given its history, being able to sit back and watch the movie without being frustrated by shortcomings in presentation is a pretty great feeling.  Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is ultimately the reason why we're here in the first place.  ;)

 Good point, hairy_hen (although it would still be correct to say the 35mm stereo version of Star Wars is older than the 70mm stereo version, if someone asked you). So, the 4-track master mix is the mix I would hear on the original camera negative of Star Wars?

CatBus said:

Gogogadget said:

Clue is a bad example because the film was released simultaneously with those multiple endings so there is no 'original' version.

It exactly matches the Star Wars audio mixes in that respect, which makes it a good example.

I think it's pretty clear we're going in circles here.  For most of the world, pre-release production details are simply trivia that add insight into the final product, but don't fundamentally change its authenticity.  Obviously, we've run into someone for whom pre-release production details fundamentally change the authenticity of the final product.  That's fine, but it's clearly an unusual--as in atypical, not wrong--way of looking at things.

 But you must remember, Catbus, that the 35mm stereo version was the first finalized version of the film itself. That is, the first release print finished was 35mm stereo before the other audio mixes could be finished.

Gogogadget said:

Clue is a bad example because the film was released simultaneously with those multiple endings so there is no 'original' version.

In my viewpoint, if someone wants a movie to have all three simultaneously released endings be considered original, that person also has to shoot all three endings simultaneously, which is of course impossible with live actors (Run, Lola, Run is an exception, because all three endings are within the film itself) but not impossible with cartoons (with cartoons, you can do anything with them, you can have multiple scenarios drawn, each by a different person, on paper, at the same time). Otherwise, you can't say "all endings were made at the same time". One ending of Clue must have been filmed first before the others, and I'm guessing it's ending A (where Miss Scarlet is the murderer).

chyron8472 said:

The original version of the film ought to be considered as the version that was first theatrically released. That means, in this case, that there are 3 original audio mixes. Neither one is more original than the other.

 You would have had me convinced if all three mixes were worked on simultaneously. But they worked on the 35mm stereo first, the 70mm stereo second, and the mono third.

Klasodeth said:

Ebaillargeon82 said:

CatBus said:

I'd say your definition of "original" is a bit weird--Star Wars was shown theatrically with three different mixes, all of which could be considered original. The order in which the mixes were completed is more of a production footnote. Does the movie Clue only have one original ending because it was the one completed first?

 Well technically, yes. Because if Clue had an original ending completed first, it combines with the rest of the film to make the first completed version of the film.  And being the first means being the original.

 I don't think you understand that during its initial theatrical release, there were three different versions of Clue being played simultaneously. By design, each of the three versions had a different ending. So on the first day of release, you conceivably could have gone to one theater and seen the version with Ending A, then gone across town to another theater that same day and seen the version with Ending B, and end your day by visiting a theater out of town to watch the version with Ending C. All three versions of the movie were released at the same time, but technically, prior to release in an editing suite somewhere, the footage for one of the three endings happened to be finalized first. 

Does it really make sense to say that the ending the editor happened to complete first is the "original" version, even though all three versions were intended for simultaneous release? Tying this back to Star Wars sound mixes, as hairy_hen explains a couple of posts above mine, multiple sound mixes were made at the same time to account for different theater sound systems. It doesn't mean that any one theatrical sound mix from 1977 is more "original" than another simply for getting through the mixing process first. 

 Well, the fact is, in the case of both Star Wars and Clue, the first completed version of the film was the only completed version prior to the other versions being completed. that's why I call the first completed version the original.

CatBus said:

I'd say your definition of "original" is a bit weird--Star Wars was shown theatrically with three different mixes, all of which could be considered original. The order in which the mixes were completed is more of a production footnote. Does the movie Clue only have one original ending because it was the one completed first?

 Well technically, yes. Because if Clue had an original ending completed first, it combines with the rest of the film to make the first completed version of the film.  And being the first means being the original.

Darth Id said:

Which release even features the mono soundtrack?

 The 1977 release.

You know the voice that says "Rebel base in firing range in seven minutes"? Well the voice is different in both the stereo and mono versions. Which version of the voice do you prefer, and why?

Harmy said:

I've been using madVR for some years now and I remember looking at my room-mate's monitor when he was watching HD films and thinking they looked horrible - like DNR was applied to them or something (I told him as much but he didn't care) I put it down to his monitor doing it, because he was using MPC-HC, just like me but then one day I installed MPC-HC on the new computer and suddenly videos looked exactly like on my friend's computer, so I started digging and found out, that I accidentally left EVR as the renderer and when I switched to madVR, the difference was night and day - I actually took these screenshots back then to show my friend to convince him to let me switch his settings to madVR too :-)

 Hi, Harmy. Since the 35mm stereo mix was finished before the 70mm stereo mix and the mono mix, the 35mm stereo mix is technically the "original mix", and thus the original version of the original 1977 theatrical release of Star Wars. Is it still possible to see an original 1977 print of Star Wars with the "original mix", or is your Despecialized Edition and Team Blu's edit the only way we can see and hear Star Wars in the same way that people saw it with the "original mix"?

RU.08 said:

Both Tem Blu's SW and Harmy's Despecialized have the 35mm stereo track as one of the audio tracks. You can get the Despecialized edition from demonoid (which I'm seeding) or myspleen and Team Blu's SW on myspleen. PM me if you need an invite. There is probably some other versions (eg Laserdisc rips) on the spleen with sync'd audio.

 When you say the 35mm stereo track is one of the audio tracks on both of those fan edits, you mean it's one of the audio options, right? Like, I can choose to watch the movie in strictly 35mm stereo, right?

What’s the best or closest way I can see the first (and thus, original) version of a Star Wars release print (meaning the 35mm two-track stereo version in 1977)? The first version of a Star Wars release print to be finished in 1977 was a print with the 35mn two track Dolby stereo mix.

So technically, that would make the 35mm two-track stereo version the original out of the original version. I don’t know if there’s a print of this version floating around though. So can anyone tell me if there’s a fan edit that’s pretty much a recreation of that version from 1977 and what the fan edit is called (For example, there’s an edit called the phantom edit.

So I would like to know the name of the edit. Like, is it called the fruit loop edit? You get the point) You know, a fan edit that has an original opening crawl of 1977 and strictly uses the 35mm two-track stereo mix?