logo Sign In

Dale Sidious

User Group
Members
Join date
1-Apr-2004
Last activity
5-May-2004
Posts
4

Post History

Post
#44382
Topic
Plot holes in the SW saga
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/44382/action/topic#44382
Time
Another plot hole which seems to have been overlooked so far:

In ANH, Obi-Wan tells Luke that Owen feared that Luke "Might follow old Obi-Wan off on some damn fool idealistic crusade like your father did"

This is inconsistent with the characters of Obi-Wan and Anakin in Eps I and II. Obi-Wan is sensible and responsible, whereas Anakin is the reckless one. Which one of the two is more likely to want to go off on "some damn fool idealistic crusade"? - Certainly not Obi-Wan.

I wonder if Episode III will explain what the "damn fool idealistic crusade" was? Whatever the Obi-Wan of the PT chooses to fight for, he takes it far too seriously to disparage it as "damn fool idealistic". Or maybe, by the time of ANH he has become old and cynical. Perhaps by that time he thinks that the whole idea of fighting for the lost Republic and saving the Galaxy from the Dark Side was all one big lost cause, so he writes off the whole enterprise as just "some damn fool idealistic crusade" which had not chance of success.

Another potential plot hole also appears in the same scene in ANH when Obi-Wan tells Luke that Owen thought Luke's father "should have stayed here (on Tattooine) and not gotten involved". For it to be a correct account of Luke's father's life, Episode III will have to involved Anakin once again returning to his home planet of Tattooine and Owen: (a) trying to exert influence over Anakin; and (b) expressing a political opinion. Neither of these actions seem very likely from the meek and quiet Owen we see in Episode II.
Post
#44381
Topic
Last line of episode 3?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/44381/action/topic#44381
Time
Quote
Originally posted by: Jedi Master DJR
How about

"They are our new hope," Yoda talking to Obi-Wan.


Nice idea. This raises one issue though - that of a plot hole in ESB. In the scene where Luke leaves Dagobah to help Han and Leia, Obi-Wan turns to Yoda and says "That boy is our last hope", to which Yoda replies "No, there is another". This would suggest, on first viewing, that Obi-Wan is unaware that Leia is also a Skywalker. Yet, in RTJ, Obi-Wan reveals to Luke that he does indeed know that Leia is his sister. Why then, would he act like he didn't know of this "other hope" in ESB?

Perhaps, perhaps, at the time of ESB he really is unaware of Leia's status, then, after Luke has left, Yoda informs him of the full story. That would explain how Obi-Wan is able to tell the story to Luke in RTJ, whilst apparently not knowing in ESB.

In ANH when Obi-Wan first sees Leia on the hologram message, he obviously recognises her, and obviously knows the identify of her 'father' to whom she refers in the message (Bail Organa). Yet that does not necessarily mean that he knows her full background and significance.

If this is the case, then the final line of Ep3 as suggested by Jedi Master DJR could not be possible, as Obi-Wan would be ignorant of there being two offspring of Anakin/Padme, just as Anakin and Palpatine were. Yet if Obi-Wan does know, and such a final line is possible, how do we account for his apparent ignorance of Leia when he talks to Yoda in ESB? Surely if he knew of her parentage he would not be saying that Luke was the 'Last Hope'.

Perhaps the final scenes of Ep3 will be similar to the final scenes of RTJ, which is in fact three different concurrent scenes - the Ewok battle on Endor, Lando and the Rebel Fleet attacking the Death Star, and Luke, Vader and the Emperor duelling inside the Death Star.

How about 3 similar concurrent scenes for the end of Ep 3 - in Scene 1, Obi-Wan is duelling with Anakin in the lava pit; in Scene 2 Palpatine and Dooku, having taken over the Curscant and the Senate, are duelling with Windu and the remaining Jedi (Samuel L heroically takes out Dooku only to get wasted by Palpatine afterwards), AND, in Scene 3, meanwhile, over at the maternity hospital, Yoda is tending to Padme's birth, giving away one baby to Bail, whilst passing on the other one to the Lars family ?

Perhaps the last line of Ep3 could be Yoda telling Owen and Beru to be careful with their new kid:

"Not a farmer is he. Too much of his father in him he he has."

Post
#41472
Topic
Last line of episode 3?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/41472/action/topic#41472
Time
I would be disappointed if Anakin became Vader early in the movie, I hope it happens later. But it need not happen right at the very end. Plenty of other movies portraying the decline and fall of a character do not leave their transformation into evil until the end. They also provide a chance to explore the fallen character's new personality as well.

For fans of the 'Godfather' movies (together with Star Wars, the two greatest trilogies ever) you will no doubt be familiar with Michael Corleone's journey to the Dark Side in the first Godfather. He finally arrives at the Dark Side about three-quarters of the way into the movie, and I believe that the movie as a whole is much more powerful and effective because we then get to see the evil Michael and the trail of human wreckage he leaves behind after he has changed.

I think a similar formula would work extremely well in Episode III. Remember that the crux of the story is Anakin's descent into inhumanity, so it would be pointless to get all that out of the way early on. Equally, we also need a chance to see just what a bastard the young Darth Vader turns out to be after he assumes his new identity (we already know how wicked the older version is).

I think the final few scenes of The Godfather were great - the new, evil, heartless Michael killing off all his perceived 'enemies' and alienating his family and former friends. Who could ever forget the baptism scene, which was juxtaposed with the brutal killings of the heads of the 5 families, whilst Michael shamelessly professed his loyalty to God. Who knows, perhaps there could be a similar climactic scene in Episode III - during the baptism of Luke (since Anakin/Vader does not know of Leia), perhaps we will see Anakin and Palpatine's goons bumping off all the remaning Jedi (Samuel L should put up a pretty mean fight) whilst evil, heartless, cynical Annie still professes his belief in Good Side of The Force.

The very last scene of The Godfather was poignantly symbolic, where one of Michael's goons closes a door on his estranged wife Kaye, thus shutting her off from his new life of evil. Wouldn't it be great if the final scene of Episode III was something similar -perhaps Vader and his henchmen closing the door of a Star Destroyer on a heartbroken Padme, who realises she has lost her true love to the Dark Side.

It is conceivable that Padme could well survive Episode III. In ROTJ Leia tells Luke that she has vague memories of her 'real mother' and remembers that she was a deeply sad person. Even if Padme gets killed off, she will have to live long enough for Leia to grow to an old enough age to be able to have conscious memories of her.
Post
#41439
Topic
How does Grand Moff Tarkin fit into Ep 3?
Link
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/41439/action/topic#41439
Time
Tarkin is one of the great characters of the Original Trilogy, with a depth and complexity that sets him apart from the (so-far) more superficial characters of the prequels.

I believe that Tarkin's future significance - and his control over Vader - lies in the role he will play in moulding Vader from the reckless youth of Episode II into the mature, authoritative leader he will become.

Consider how rash and impetuous Anakin is in Episode II. This rashness will ultimately lead to his estrangement from his Jedi allies, his crippling, and the loss of his great love, Padme. After all of these mishaps, he will learn to control his temper and become the ice-cold, calculating Darth Vader.

I believe that Vader accepts his status as an underling to Tarkin in Episode IV because he most likely saw him as somewhat of a role model. Think about it - how else to explain his transition from the emotional, reckless youth of Episode II to the totally calm and in-control Vader? His personality turns around a full 180 degress between Episodes II and IV. Surely the transition phase would have involved learning from someone he respected for their pragmatic, ruthless and expedient style. No one better fits this description than Tarkin. Vader, like all great totalitarian dictators with nothing to fear, would only bow to someone they respect personally, as they can never be constrained by any formal authority. Even if Tarkin does not end up playing a big role in Episode III, I am certain that in the period between Episodes III and IV, Vader will learn to respect and admire Tarkin for being such an effective, ruthless, emotionless operator and this will help mould his character. Having lost so much from being rash in his youth, Vader will learn the value of Tarkin's cold, calculating style. Even by the time of Episode IV, Vader is still learning from Tarkin and being impressed by his ruthlessness and cunning. Consider how impressed Vader is when Tarkin devises the plan to persuade Leia to confess by threatening to destroy Alderaan - a cunning plan that Vader himself was not able to devise.

No wonder Vader looks on Tarkin as a friend. By the time of Episode IV, Vader will rightly be able to say that Tarkin "helped make me the man I am today".