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Dagenspear

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2-Jul-2025
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23-Jul-2025
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Post
#1657320
Topic
George was telling the truth about the Father Vader twist going back to ANH, but so was Kurtz:
Time

Tosche Station said:

I don’t know about it being twisty just for the sake of it, well maybe the ‘Luke is really Vader’s kid, he’s not Skywalker Sr’s son’ concept can be said to be twisty for the sake of it. The Anakin killing Vader then taking Vader’s identity twist perhaps would mean not so much a family bloodline story but more of a ‘Darth Vader is not who you think he is’ type of story. And it does change things, especially if it’s a bit of subterfuge where neither the Sith, Sith Master, The Emperor, or even Ben Kenobi knew the real truth. And, if the story is/was true, Lucas did eventually drop the idea anyway before even beginning to write the final draft of the script. I used to think perhaps Kurtz had an alternate take on the twist, but in the quote(s) he still maintains that the twist that we’re all familiar with didn’t come about until the second draft of Empire (ESB). This would mean that instead of the truth confirming Lucas’s often made claim that Vader was Luke’s father when they made ANH, it would mean that at best, Lucas toyed with a variation of the twist idea before dropping it and going with the Vader-killed-Luke’s father story. An idea which if you think about it, almost sounds like a mirror-reversal or flip of the ‘Anakin-killed-Vader’ idea. One could also say that the twist that Empire brought about was Lucas’ older dropped idea but having been run ‘through the wringer’ of the concept of Vader having killed Luke’s father, where everyone - Sith, Empire, Ben Kenobi were all in the know, but now a literal killing being re-cast as a metaphorical killing (and the ‘certain point of view’ aspect being added in the later drafts written for ROTJ).

I don’t think one necessarily automatically contradicts the other, depending on one’s perspective. To Lucas, as an example, that he was toying with the idea may be enough for him to say it was planned out, in theory. Or he could be just being exaggerating. I dunno.

Post
#1656610
Topic
George was telling the truth about the Father Vader twist going back to ANH, but so was Kurtz:
Time

JF_Sanderson said:

Darth being a real guy + Anakin stealing his identity would be a great twist. That or the other scenario (Anakin dead but Vader is the real dad with Mrs Skywalker) would make revelations in Rotj much more exciting and the prequels a LOT more surprising. And Old Ben wouldn’t have to be a damn lying liar.

That, to me, seems twisty for the sake of it. What does it change or really add if Anakin stole Vader’s identity story or character wise or if Vader is a different guy who is Luke’s dad?

Tosche Station said:

Gary Kurtz: “When we made Star Wars, Vader and Anakin were two separate people. The idea that Vader was Luke’s father didn’t exist. I remember Lucas talked about Anakin having killed Vader and then taking his identity, but that was dropped early on. The whole twist in Empire was new and unexpected.”

Star Wars Insider #138, 2011

Tosche Station said:

Basically, the Gary Kurtz quote shows that I was wrong. Lucas did NOT merge Vader and Anakin until Empire (ESB), and it was with Empire, not Jedi (ROTJ) that he did this. The earlier ‘father Vader twist’ idea that Lucas had during the writing stage/pre-production of SW (ANH) was dropped before the final version of the script was done.

Or it’s an alternative take from Kurtz.

However, I did find, though I don’t know too much about it, this:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/21/21/5021214ea8807dd151264234afa0276f.jpg

Seemingly an interview with David Prowse before the filming of TESB where Prowse seems to spoil the twist that Vader is Luke’s dad.

Post
#1656124
Topic
George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

oojason said:

Yeah, I think Mocata was being somewhat sardonic or flippant - given TFN’s history of treating Original Trilogy fans… poorly:-

2️⃣ Ⓓ • Other websites / communities supposed issues with OT•com, the Original Trilogy, or the unaltered theatrical cuts

 
Of course TFN would seemingly have that majority view… as the likes of Kasdan, Huyck, Katz and others who contributed to the OT are often overlooked or glossed over by many on there - despite being stronger creative writers than those of the ST… and also than George and Hales for the PT. Yet it is baffling that many forget, or neglect to mention, the above contributors.

Though fair play to George when it comes to his writing - he does admit: “I bleed on the page, and it’s just awful…”

What’s overlooking or glossing over? Not caring enough to mention them? I feel like it’s kinda par for the course that when speaking on something the most famous names get brought up more than anyone else. How many speak on Chris Terrio about Batman V Superman/Snydercut JL as an example? Most I see treat that as Snyder’s baby wholesale, as an example.

Post
#1655836
Topic
George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist...
Time

oojason said:

Have you tried looking over at TFN…? 😉

Mocata said:

Oh I bet they love us over there.

Been there. I see generally criticism of Lucas’ writing choices as well as other things. Even though the majority seems to err on the side that Lucas was a stronger creative than all of the ST writers. Which is a sentiment I think moreso similarly on.

Post
#1655739
Topic
Obi-Wan Kenobi Series Fix
Time

I wasn’t pleased with this show’s development. This isn’t a 100% from scratch overhaul, no real recastings and such, it refines some things in the show’s structure, takes out some things and replaces them altogether, with specifically some more aggressive changes in the back half. Here are the ideas I thank God for, if He wills, blessing me with, for this:

EPISODE 1:

The previously on is used as a transition into the episode through Obi-Wan having a NIGHTMARE, like this:

Tthe events of the Prequel Trilogy flash through the screen, showing Anakin as a child, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Padme, Anakin’s turn, he and Obi-Wan battling and Obi cutting his arm and legs off and finally reaching the part where Anakin is burning alive, intercut with Padme dying and Obi-Wan agreeing to watch over Luke, Bail saying he’ll take Leia, Obi-Wan giving Luke to Beru and Owen, then showing Anakin burning alive, more and more, with the music rising and getting more intense, with Obi-Wan saying he loves Anakin, and Anakin screaming that he hates Obi-Wan, then…

SMASH CUT to PRESENT DAY:

Obi-Wan waking up from his nightmare, as the words “I have failed you, Anakin” echo in his head. His exhaustion is shown as he runs his hand over his head, seeing the sun begin to rise and he knows he has to get ready for his day.

Then show him going on about his day. This is the opening scene of the episode and show. He does his job cutting up pieces of meat, sees his boss shortchanging someone on their agreed upon wage and when the employee tries to push for more, the boss shoves him down, which Obi reacts to, the frustration at it shown on his face, and the boss asking him if he’s got anything to say, which Obi keeps his head down about and says no. He goes to his camel like creature that’s called an eopie, gives it the meat he cut off and took for it to eat. A small act of kindness and the only one he thinks he can afford to show, having a brief smile at the small victory for him in another day of seeing dishonesty. He gets on the eopie and rides through the desert, and from a wide shot of that we cut to the opening title:

OBI-WAN KENOBI

And we open from there to the Inquisitors chasing after the jedi.

They never come to Tatooine, going after that jedi. It’s on another planet, and the jedi escapes on a transport. No exposition about Reva wanting Kenobi. Unravel that more slowly.

The Inquisitors raid the jedi’s abandoned living quarters, discussing amongst themselves his motives for making such a ruckus now when he’s been under the radar for so long. Reva uses the force to reach out, finding a star chart, among other jedi objects. Grand Inquisitor deduces that they must have scared the jedi off before he was able to gather it. Reva finds a holographic transmitter that still holds the message of Obi-Wan (the message shown in Rebels and Jedi Fallen Order), staring at it.

The Fifth Brother announces that Reva has found something, to which the Grand Inquisitor questions what. She, begrudgingly, reveals it, suggesting that he may be looking for him, hence the star chart. Reva says that this is the first sign of Kenobi’s potential existence in years. Grand Inquisitor dismisses it, saying that if Kenobi were alive he would’ve made his presence known years ago. Reva says that perhaps Vader would be interested to know this possibility, unless Grand Inquisitor’s afraid at the idea he may have to face Kenobi.

Grand Inquisitor angrily ignites his lightsaber at her throat, stating that her insolence under his command will not be tolerated, before refraining his anger/retracting his lightsaber, and only smugly saying that if she thinks this worthy to bring to Vader, do so, and see what she’ll get from him in return for vague theories and baseless assumptions. He then simply turns his back on her and leaves her, as she stews in her anger. The Fifth Brother chuckles at her dismissal.

Back on tatooine, Owen is in the episode more and talks with a young Luke, who has begun asking questions about his dad, already having been told his parents are dead and that Owen and Beru are his Aunt and Uncle. Owen struggles with what he should do here.

Beru has more weight in this, having never known her dad as he died before she really knew him, she feels like it’s their responsibility to support his curiosity about his family. Owen decides he feels it’s their responsibility to protect Luke, to ensure they he doesn’t get caught up in the same delusions of grandeur that he thinks got Anakin killed, especially considering how the jedi were killed.

At the shops on tatooine, Luke’s older friend Biggs shows off his new skyhopper to Luke. Luke shows his technical interest in it, but them his attention is pulled off to some of Jabba’s thugs taking water from some of citizens. He feels for them and wants to do something, but Owen steps in and tells him not to, that he’d be killed and he wants Luke safe. Luke is upset at this, frustrated, this compounds his anger at Owen not telling him about his dad.

The Owen and Obi-Wan conversation is basically Obi-Wan’s main conflict for the first episode. They talk once, Obi asking about Luke, Owen shutting it down as Owen feels he’s responsible for Luke, because he’s Shmi’s grandson, telling Obi that he’ll never let Luke join Obi.

Obi is left depressed from Owen outright rejecting training Luke, the idea of his only remaining life goal having been taken from him, unsure how to move forward. He, mind clouded with uncertainty, goes back to his cave, before picking up on the jedi watching him, who reveals himself to Obi.

Obi-Wan lies to the jedi when they find him, about what he’s doing there, in case the jedi would get caught, he wouldn’t give information about what’s going on. When he tells Obi that he was being chased by the empire, but escaped, Obi is abrasive, angry, telling the jedi that he risked lives coming here, that he could’ve brought the empire to him, asking how he found him. The jedi assures Obi that he slipped through their fingers on a transport and has faked a trail 3 times before coming here, stating that he remembers his training, then explaining how he found him by saying that he used the seeing stone, that his mentor taught him about, remarking that few jedi even knew about it and wasn’t even in the jedi archives, so it’s remained untouched by the empire on Tython, and he saw him through using that stone.

Obi, closed off, asks him what else he saw, fearful that he may have sensed Luke. He says he was only looking for him, he’s all he saw. Obi lets out a sigh of relief, but then states that he can’t be here, he has to leave before he’s discovered and empire catches word, saying that the Hutt cartel doesn’t want the empire in their business so that may either gain him them keeping quiet if he’s discovered or they may silence him to prevent him gaining the empire’s attention, but other criminals who may want some easy credits will turn him in if he’s found out.

The jedi’s confused, asking what about the mission. Obi, in conflict, says that there is no mission, not anymore, there’s nothing they can do, they lost, the sith took everything. The jedi shows him another recording of his message (this being his teacher’s who’d died not long after the empire rose), the words of Kenobi’s past self haunting him, and he asks him about that message, what about the hope for the future.

Obi is conflicted, before telling a half truth, that he didn’t know what the cost of survival would be when he made that message, he didn’t know what he’d have to do to survive, curb every feeling he has, suppress every drive to help those in need, he’s had to give up who he is, stating that that message was that of a man who didn’t realize that in order to ensure the survival of the jedi, he had to lose everything in him that made him a jedi. Obi then calmly, but sadly, tells him to stay hidden, it’s the only way, before leaving the saddened jedi behind.

After all this, he lays, trying to sleep, but unable to. Tormented by what he said to that jedi, depressed at the idea that he thinks the only way to fix his mistakes has been taken from him. He tries to reach out to Qui-Gon for guidance, questioning how he can go on when he has no way to fix what’s happened. But Qui-Gon still hasn’t replied back.

Then, from that, cut to Leia for the first time.

Leia being adopted isn’t known by anyone. Though Leia herself is developed to feel out of place, without really knowing why. She tells her parents about a dream she had of a beautiful, kind, sad woman. Bail and Breha ponder that, before telling her that she’s adopted. She’s uncertain, wondering what this means for her, if she’s still their daughter. Bail tells her that no matter how she feels, she is their daughter, an Organa in every way and that’s what matters, that just because her birth parents are apart of who she is, it doesn’t mean that they’re not too.

Leia goes outside, looking up at the sky, wondering about her place, feeling a sense of happiness seeing it, the wide scope of the galaxy, similar visually to Luke looking at the twin suns in ANH. That’s when she’s taken aback, when she’s someone watching her. Afraid, she steps back, in spite of him telling her it’s okay, but she can feel that it’s not.

Meanwhile one of the alderaan guards finds the body of another, alerting the others, and the King and Queen. They immediately fear for Leia. An alarm is set off, Leia hearing and the stranger’s attention is taken off her for a second, her using this as a distraction start running the other way, away from the stranger, only to be snatched up by another one behind her.

Obi goes about his routine the next day, and re-enters the town, being stopped in his tracks finds the jedi dead, not by the Inquisitors, but done by the crime run mob of Tatooine, as a warning to anyone, and as a way to keep the empire out of their business.

Obi is left even more defeated by this, the struggle of trying to protect the future and the compromises he makes to do so weighing on him, the guilt of everything messing with his head, feeling responsible for it all. He goes back to his cave, despondent. He drops to the ground once he gets there, feeling lost, utterly defeated, asking for help. And that’s when he’s contacted by Bail.

Obi-Wan’s first rejection of rescuing Leia is developed more in that he knows the empire were hunting that jedi, that they could’ve found his location, and that doing something could draw attention and get Luke killed/captured, maybe even draw them to Leia and her potential and that because Owen is struggling to pay off the second mortgage on the moisture farm, along with his torment about the guilt and fear that he’ll fail her and Luke.

There isn’t second interaction in this episode. But instead Bail’s second plea with him is in the very same scene, as Bail tells him that Leia’s droid Lola has a tracker on it, tracing it to the planet Daiyu before it was deactivated, suggesting that he looks there first. The reason for seeking Obi’s help, and no one else, being that they’re afraid Leia is showing signs of force sensitivity in memories and he’s the only other person who knows about that.

That’s how Bail convinces Obi, telling him that anyone else sent could see what she can do and turn her over by the empire as they offer not only bounty’s but also privileges for criminals. He and Breha state that they know it’s dangerous, but she needs him. Bails says that he knows that he couldn’t save Anakin weighs on him, but affirms he can save her. Obi pushes himself to try and accomplish the final goal of keeping Leia safe, thinking that’s all he has left, agreeing to do it.

Obi goes to an area next to his cave to dig up the lightsaber. He doesn’t flash the lightsaber at the transport, but keeps it hidden.

EPISODE 2:

Obi arrives on the the planet Dai Yu, scanning the area where he was told by Bail the tracking signal cut out. He asks around where someone may find less than legal work, interacting with a young woman, who gives him some spice, which he simply shoves in his pocket.

Reva herself is also on the planet Dai Yu, awaiting from a distance for some sign that Obi has made a move, watching security footage of Leia in her cell, showcasing some discomfort at the situation. Not realizing that she’s been followed by the Fifth Brother, who contacts the Grand Inquisitor.

As Obi continues to search, he’s asked by the old clone veteran looking for a warm meal for money, turning and seeing, Obi has a moment of a haunted look on his face before he refocuses. Feeling sympathy, he reaches down to give him some money. The clone recognizes him and calls him by his name that he knows him as, General Kenobi. The clone looks down shame, apologizing to him for what he did.

Obi then realizes that the clone is Commander Cody. Obi kneels down to him and puts his hand on his shoulder, telling him that it’s okay. The clone refuses to accept that, the ptsd ridden guilt consuming him. Obi tells him he knows it wasn’t his fault, and that he forgives him. The clone blinks back tears of relief, as Obi gives Cody all the money he has, dryly saying to not spend it all in one place. But Cody’s awake, for the first time in years, asking Obi if he’s on a mission. Obi tells him it’s okay, he doesn’t have to get involved. Cody insists. Obi is still unsure. Cody recognizes the guardedness from Obi, and understands, telling him he doesn’t have to tell him why or what, he understands why he wouldn’t trust him after what the clones did.

Obi dismisses that thinking, telling him he knows it wasn’t the clones fault. After a second, he gives him an asks him if he knows of any gang members who’d been employed for a kidnapping job more recently, saying that he knows a clone trooper never doesn’t keep their eyes open. Cody, almost with a smirk, tells Obi that some of the thugs who work for the spice trade just arrived back on the planet, his old instincts aren’t what they used to be but he knows when some thugs have unique cargo, showing Obi the warehouse they do their business in. Cody wants to help, but Obi tells him no, as less people will gain less attention, telling him to go back, get himself a meal and a place to sleep, it’s the least Obi thinks he can give him after everything that happened.

Obi stuns one of the workers who stepped out to fire up a death stick, taking his gas mask and apron, and slipping into the warehouse. Obi sets off a chemical reaction that smokes up the place, sneaking off to look for Leia.

Reva sees the commotion and scans through the security feeds to see Obi walking through the halls. Reva quickly heads for the warehouse, but is halted when Grand Inquisitor and Fifth Brother show up, confronting her about what she’s doing, chastising her for going on an unsanctioned mission. Eventually she has to tell them she’s found Kenobi. When they ask her how, she’s hesitant to confess, lying by saying she found him through the mobsters hiring force users. Reva didn’t find a connection between Bail Organa and Obi-Wan in the records. It’s left a mystery for now how she figured out their connection.

He has a moment where pauses and reaches out, trying to sense her location, but struggling, though he gains something, following that feeling, leading him to Leia’s cell. She tries to hit him and run out of the room, but he’s able to grab her, taking off the gas mask and tell her her dad sent him. She asks where the army is. But in this he’s caught by the thugs, who he fights, gets in a couple good hits, but he’s still off and is overwhelmed, blasters pulled on him. He slyly points at the gas mask for Leia to pick up, which she does. The thugs mock Obi, who swiftly pulls out the spice and smashes it on the ground, covering his mouth and nose, as Leia holds the gas mask over her face, them escaping the room and the warehouse.

When the Inquisitors get to the warehouse, the thugs stumble out, messed up by the spice. Reva, learning that Kenobi escaped, angered, threatens the thugs. When the thugs begin to tell what happened, Reva kills them before they mention Leia. The Grand Inquisitor is angered at Reva being so reckless. He then turns to Fifth Brother, having him put out an image of Kenobi to all the stormtroopers on the planet to go after him, bring him in alive by Vader’s order. Reva is conflicted at this.

The kidnapping of an imperial senator’s daughter is never learned about by any of the Inquisitors. The Grand Inquisitor is reprimanding Reva, instead, for her going on an unsanctioned mission, especially after Kenobi, this being how he discovers that he’s there.

Leia and Obi are attacked by a swath of stormtroopers and separated. Reva goes off on her own, tracking Obi and Leia, in some aspects even getting in the way of the stormtroopers.

Leia climbs up a ladder to try and escape, but is still fired upon and falls over the edge of a building and Obi has to fully tap into the force and stopping her fall. As Obi does this, a stormtrooper tries to shoot him, but is shot by Cody instead.

Afterwards, Cody tells Obi that he knows of a planet and location where refugees go to to escape the empire, getting there through an automatic shipping transport.

Leia and Obi bond, she begins to trust him (she doesn’t fully know how, but she can feel his emotions, his pain, sadness, the fear he has of being caught, how closed off he is because of these things and his desire to protect someone close to him and that he helps her in spite of it), he likes her (her sassyness reminds him of Anakin). Leia never learns that his name is Obi-Wan. But only ever hears his name as Ben.

Cody tries to hold off Reva, who uses the force to stop him, acknowledging him as a clone, threatening his life if he doesn’t tell her. When he refuses, she probes his mind and is about to kill him, but decides against it, throwing him into the wall, telling him to stay out of her way.

Reva gets to the docking bay, threatening Obi as he hides, telling Obi to give himself up and Leia won’t be in any danger from the Inquisitors, as they don’t know about her. Obi is conflicted, but then is shaken to his core when Reva tells him that Darth Vader has been searching for him for a long time. Hearing that Vader is alive, Obi knowing that this is Anakin, Obi is utterly emotionally tormented by this knowledge, that Anakin is alive.

Reva doesn’t know Vader is Anakin.

There’s no fakeout death for the Grand Inquisitor. He interrupts Reva’s attempt to threaten Obi, and she opposes him. Grand Inquisitor makes a move against her, which she fights back against, before both realizing that Obi is escaping in an automatic shipping crate. But they are unable to get to him in time.

Obi and Leia escape on the shipping transport, as Obi is haunted by the knowledge of Anakin being alive.

And from there we reveal Darth Vader’s eyes opening inside the bacta tank.

EPISODE 3:

Intercut Darth Vader being pieced together with his robotic limbs and suit, with Obi in conflict, trying to reach out to Qui-Gon.

Vader receives Reva’s report about Kenobi. She tells about the other Inquisitors getting in her way. Vader cuts her off, seeming to percieve her ambition and the idea that she wants the acclaim for this. Vader tells her that as a reward for locating Kenobi, she’ll run point under his personal supervision on this mission and if she succeeds, she’ll be promoted to the rank of Grand Inquisitor.

Leia tries to offer some comfort, asking what he’s doing. He tells her. She asks about it. He tells her that as a jedi they have to let go to truly connect to it, and he doesn’t know how to anymore. Seeing her broken lola droid that she’s holding, he offers to try and fix it.

Grand Inquisitor is furious with Reva, ready to punish her, but is halted when she tells him that she has personally contacted Vader to inform him of Kenobi’s sighting. Grand Inquisitor is forced by Vader to concede under Reva’s command.

Upon arriving on the planet, Obi and Leia sneak off the shipping crate onto the road, walking for a bit before seeing a transport. Leia suggests they take it, which Obi agrees with, because them walking may be suspicious. Leia takes the lead in the story spin, which Obi has a smirk at. Getting in the back though, Obi sees an imperial flag on it, unsettled by it.

The transport driver picks up some stormtroopers, which brings some tension to him and Leia. The stormtroopers tell the driver that a jedi may be on the planet and to keep an eye out. He says he will. They then turn their attention to Obi and Leia, asking them if they’ve seen anyone. Obi is hesitant, picking up on Leia’s story of them visiting the planet, adding on that her mother died here and that’s why, so he wouldn’t know the difference between a jedi and the driver. Obi has a moment of sadness, sincerely saying that they miss her very much.

Leia registers Obi’s sincerity, and, after the stormtroopers get off at their stop, she asks him about why Obi was sent to rescue and why he’s so committed to it, on his own, asking him if he’s her dad. Obi tells her that he’s not, he wishes for her sake that he were. She sadly tells him that knowing she’s adopted, she wonders what her dad was like, what her mom was like. Obi tells her he knows how she feels, that he was given up very young, and he still has memories, flashes really about his mom and dad, maybe he had a brother.

Obviously some changes with the little things, like the blockade stormtrooper attack scene, but that’s not really plot relevant. Point being, the fight scene is improved there and they escape, getting past the blockade.

After all this, they get to the coordinates, and find no one there. Obi becomes frustrated, thinking that the stormtroopers in the area must have scared them off. Leia asks why they would do that if they want to help. Obi tells her that sometimes people put their own interests first, even if they seem heroic. He’s caught off guard when an imperial transport pulls up to the area. Scared, Obi puts his hand on his lightsaber, wary of fight, when a single female imperial officer gets off, telling him that it’s safe. Obi is still concerned, but she tells them her name is Tala and she’s sorry she’s late, the empire has recently put up blockades around this area so it’s harder to get here, remarking that they’re gonna have to change the location of the pickup again because of that. Obi relaxes, and he and Leia go with Tala.

Tala takes them to the tunnel underneath the town. Obi asks her about being an imperial. She tells him that she joined because they ran the mobsters off of her home planet and she wanted to do the same, but saw that to the planets that resisted them they weren’t treated by the empire any different than the mob bosses treated her planet, so she took to trying to use her position to help people who are trying to escape the empire. She introduces them to her loader droid, which Leia and Tala have the same conversation about, how it doesn’t have a voice and if it has something to say, actions speak louder than words.

Reva, no other Inquisitors, are led by Vader, with a squad of stormtroopers, entering the town, off of the reports of the blockade being breached around this area.

Obi-Wan carefully takes out his lightsaber when Vader is hurting people in the street. He looks at it, feeling the weight and pain of when he used it last, considering taking action, but, conflicted about what it would mean if he was caught (that Luke and Leia could be caught as well), he decides to hide, the pain of him hearing others be hurt shown on his face.

Obi opts to attempt a distraction to catch Vader’s attention and dodge his senses to draw away Vader from the area and tunnel. But it’s no use, Vader senses Obi and goes after him.

Obi, hiding, is faced with Vader in the quarry still, though they’re illuminated by the red crystaline fuel sources that’s being ground up by the machines. Obi carefully ignites the lightsaber, readying it for Vader, but instead slashes at pulley with it to cause a large container of gravel to tip over, the gravel spilling between them, Vader’s vision being obscured.

When Vader gets a clear visual, Obi’s gone. Vader calls him a coward. Obi continues to try and hide, as Vader’s voice echoes throughout the quarry, taunting him, but is caught off guard by Vader’s attack. Obi asks what have you become and Vader tells Obi that he is what Obi made him.

Meanwhile, Leia isn’t recaptured. Reva places a tracker on the ship that Leia, Tala and Obi-Wan are going to escape on.

The Obi and Vader fight does show how out of practice Obi is, where he’s outmatched by Vader, and the fight still ends with Obi being dragged through burning coals, Vader telling him he will make him suffer the same way he has.

Tala fires on a water tank, spraying the water on the coals and the droid knocking the tower down between Vader and Obi. Stormtroopers and Reva rush to Vader’s side, Tala and her droid getting Obi out of there as well.

Reva begins to order the stormtroopers to go after them, but Vader stops her, asking if she placed the tracker. Reva says yes. Vader responds that that’s good, because Vader doesn’t want this hunt to end quickly, then saying to Obi-Wan through the force, to run, because he can hide from him no longer.

EPISODE 4:

The opening is intercut between Obi being taken, burned, injured to the bacta tank and Vader entering his hyperbaric chamber room, disrobing from his suit, and entering into his bacta tank.

Obi begins having flashbacks to events where he feels he failed Anakin:

The FIRST FLASHBACK is:

A 14 year old Anakin is being given lessons about the control of emotions as a jedi in the midst of battle. This is his first active lesson on real physicality. Anakin is faced with the challenge of succeeding in controlling his emotions during a duel with Obi-Wan.

Anakin is high strung, hard on himself, constantly pushing to perfect every little detail, and when he falls short, he’s insecure, angry, feeling dismissed by Obi-Wan, Anakin trying to prove himself, prove he can beat Obi-Wan. Obi is exasperated, not knowing how to handle the situation. He shuts Anakin down, telling him that if he’s going to continue to not understand the point of the lesson, to not listen to him, then he should stop. Obi regrets it, and Anakin sulks away, angry at Obi, telling him that he doesn’t even care if he becomes a jedi, because he doesn’t care about him, stating that he’s not Qui-Gon, as he storms away.

Later Obi walks up to Anakin, as he attempts to calm himself. Obi is apologetic, understanding but also direct about Anakin’s conflicts, telling him that it’s okay to fail, to not always succeed. Anakin tells Obi that Obi doesn’t understand what he’s feeling. Obi says that he may, because he’s felt anger and frustration before, but that as jedi they’re responsibility is to accept how they feel, what they feel, and strive to control it, that to control their emotions can help them focus, and that they have to have that focus to help others, beyond themselves.

PRESENT DAY:

As they scan Obi’s life signs, Leia is afraid for him, feeling his pain. Tala comforts her.

SECOND FLASHBACK is Anakin’s trials to become a jedi knight:

The clone war has just begun and the jedi council suggest the need for Anakin to be placed at a higher rank for his bravery and skill in the battle of Geonosis. Obi-Wan is asked by the council if Anakin is ready, but Obi is unsure, sensing imbalance with Anakin.

Obi confronts Anakin about his doubts, sensing an unease with him. Anakin admits to him that he went to tatooine to find his mom, discovered that she’d been freed and married someone, then telling him about Owen, then telling him that he found out she’d died. Obi is comforting of this, also feeling responsible because he ignored Anakin’s dreams, but also concerned at what this means for him. Obi can sense there’s more than Anakin tells him, but doesn’t push. Anakin asks him to not tell the council. Obi promises he won’t.

At the trial of the council to decide if Anakin’s ready, Obi gives his recommendation, in spite of sensing Anakin’s conflict.

The THIRD FLASHBACK is during The Clone Wars:

It’s a live action recreation, in part, of the deleted scene from The Clone Wars where Anakin and Obi talk about Ahsoka leaving: Anakin contacts Mace on the info of their current mission at night, finishing up the conversation as Obi starts a fire and sits down beside it to warm himself.

Anakin pitches an idea to Obi, that maybe Ahsoka may know something about it, maybe she can help, he can contact R2 and he knows R2 could contact her. Obi tries to interrupt, before Anakin stops himself, Obi telling him that it’s unlikely and wouldn’t be useful right now. Anakin affirms that he’s right, and nevermind, Ahsoka’s gone.

Obi tries to tell him that he can’t dwell on Ahsoka leaving. Anakin states that he doesn’t understand why he had to lose her, why she couldn’t be here. Anakin states that he loses everyone, Qui-Gon, his mother, Ahsoka. Obi tells him that he didn’t lose Ahsoka, she just chose a different path. Anakin says that she was wrong, that she’s a jedi and belongs with them.

Obi says it was her decision. Anakin has an outburst, telling him what choice did they give her and as soon as there was doubt about her loyalty the council turned their back on her.

Obi has a moment, before asking who he’s angry at. Anakin says that he doesn’t know, the council, Ahsoka, himself. Anakin then states that he should have done something, that he could have convinced her, he could have done more. Obi asks him what. Anakin says he doesn’t know.

Obi tells him that while he does think the council did make a mistake in how they handled it, allowed their emotions about the senate’s hold over them to cloud their judgement, Ahsoka also allowed herself to be driven by her emotions in leaving, that wasn’t a jedi choice, but it was still hers to make, and Anakin can’t take responsibility for that.

Anakin asks Obi how he would feel if he turned his back on everything. Obi states that it’s not the same. Anakin says it’s precisely the same as he took him in and practically raised him, he’s Obi’s apprentice just as Ahsoka is his, then asking how he’d be able to sleep knowing he’d been lost to him.

Obi, haunted, states not well he’d imagine.

Anakin asserts that as mentors they’re responsible for their apprentices and if they don’t do everything they can, they’ve failed, and that’s how he feels. Obi simply states that Anakin has never and will never betray what they stand for though. Anakin simply looks away and Obi doesn’t know what to say after that, even as he feels Anakin’s shame and frustration.

FOURTH FLASHBACK is the battle of mustafar at the end of Revenge Of The Sith:

They battle, striking at eachother.

Obi jumps off onto the island, landing, telling him that it’s over, he has the high ground.

Anakin tells him that he underestimates his power. Obi says to not try it.

Anakin leaps over Obi.

Obi strikes at Anakin as he flips over him, cutting his legs and arm off, him rolling down close to the edge of the lava river.

Obi tells him that he was his brother and that he loved him.

This flashback however shifts into a SHARED DREAMSTATE between Vader and Obi, in their respective bacta tanks:

Where the ground beneath Anakin crumbles and his body slides into the burning lava, him screaming out in agony at being burned alive as Obi watches on in horror.

But Anakin then emerges from the lava, his body morphed into Vader. Vader tells Obi that if he loved him he would’ve killed him. Obi strikes at Vader in this state, briefly. Obi takes his arms and legs off again, then his Vader helmet, leaving a helpless, freshly scarred Anakin’s face looking up at him, a brief moment of vulnerability showing on his face, asking Obi to please kill him.

Obi, in a moment of dark thoughts, raises the lightsaber and brings the lightsaber down in a swift strike, murdering Anakin in his mind.

THIS MOMENT causes Obi to jerk awake, screaming in horror at what he did, what he, on some level, wants to do, to not only prevent Anakin’s pain, but also prevent all that he’s done.

Obi climbs out of the tank, still feeling the pain of his burns, healed well enough, but not fully, redressing as he’s confronted by the leader of the path, who tells him that as sympathetic as he is to helping them, they’re going to have leave soon, as he doesn’t want to risk gaining unwanted attention from the empire. Leia comes in and is happy to see Obi okay. He comforts her.

Vader, without his suit, in a hyberbaric chamber room, speaks to Reva about her goals, his face obviously obscured by his healed burns and a breathing mask. This gives Hayden Cristensen more scenes, more to do. She’s taken aback by what’s been done to him. Reva fakes the idea of this being a ladder climbing angle. Vader explains to her what his goals are, how he’s in torment just to breathe, just to live and that Kenobi is responsible, and that he’s going to punish him for it.

Afterward Obi is shaken, emotionally tormented by what his thoughts are, his mind consumed by the image of him murdering Anakin.

Meanwhile Vader and Reva are in a ship that’s traveling through space, tracking the ship, locking in on the coordinates of Obi-Wan’s location. Vader knights Reva with the title of Grand Inquisitor, as a reward for her work.

They’re informed that they secured the location. Reaching it. Scanning for further life, they say that he’s surrounded with other life signs.

Vader then says that that’s good, because they can use them to push Obi-Wan, until he can do nothing but break.

EPISODE 5:

This episode opens with a FLASHBACK:

Of younglings, being trained by a jedi… Until they’re shaken by blaster shot noises. The blastdoors open and clone troopers flood the room, opening fire without hesitation. This is the night of Order 66, the jedi purge. The jedi battles them, escaping the room with the younglings. The younglings are confused and terrified. More attack. Some younglings are killed, the jedi protecting the younglings that are left, trying to escape with them.

In PRESENT DAY:

There’s a fairly similar setup as the actual episode here. Vader wants to coerce Obi-Wan out by attacking the base he’s in and threatening the lives of those who are helping him. The point is to make Obi sweat. That is why they don’t break down the base’s doors immediately. Vader is commanding this from his destroyer, sending Reva down first, to lure Obi into a false sense of security. They have the base surrounded and have the outside power cut.

There’s panic, fear, even resentment towards Obi-Wan for what they think is his fault, that the empire has been led to them. Obi doesn’t know what to do. He blames himself as well, though not in the way they think. They consider turning him over.

Cody is revealed to be there. He’s trimmed his beard and hair. Obi’s pleased to see him. Cody thanks him, because he’d forgotten what it meant to help people, be a soldier. Obi says that he was always more than that. Cody says that he took another way out of there and came across the path, them bringing him here.

Cody asks him when he knew that the clones were mind controlled. Obi tells him that it took time, but he eventually put the pieces together once he thought of it. Obi apologizes for the clones that he killed after the purge, saying that if he’d realized they were controlled sooner he’d have found another way, he should’ve seen it sooner, they all should’ve. Cody cuts him off, telling him that his brothers would’ve sooner died than slaughtered the jedi, it was the empire that did the real damage, not Obi. Obi is comforted by this, but also is unsure.

The path only has 2 small ships, and both of those together can only barely contain the children and parents they have, and only one of them has a functioning hyperdrive to escape with. They come up with a plan, as a way to ensure that the children can escape. But they need to open the above hangar doors, so the ship can get out, and since the power has been shut off, they need to reroute the backup power to them, which is only available through a small vent, as this place is an old and damaged building, the original entrance being cut off by a collapsed ceiling, from a battle during the clone wars.

Leia volunteers. Obi is uncertain. Leia tells him that she sees how he never gives up, in spite of the pain she can see he’s in, so what right does she to not do something to help those who need it. Obi is proud of her, insisting that she be careful while doing it, and asking Tala to keep her safe.

Cody sees this, asking him who she is. Obi is hesitant to tell him, but eventually confesses that she’s Anakin’s daughter. Cody is almost proud, saying that that must mean that the rumor about Anakin and Senator Amidala were true. In spite of himself, Obi almost smirks at that, a camaraderie that he’s missed. But the smirk does fade at the knowledge of where it led.

Leia, with instructions from Tala, reroutes the backup power.

Obi still goes to try and talk Reva down, realizing that she’s hunting Anakin. Cody goes with him, just in case.

Reva tells Obi that the reason she’s so aggressive in going after him is because she thinks Anakin is still out there and that Obi can lead her to him, so she can get revenge on him for the family she lost, because she was one of the younglings that was attacked during Order 66, the flashback at the opening of this episode. The jedi who protected her was killed by Anakin and she was shot over the balcony by a clone trooper. She hid among the bodies of other younglings, and was almost found as the clones searched the bodies for survivors, when Obi-Wan and Yoda entered and fought the clones, her escaping as that happened.

That’s how she knew that Obi was on coruscant, but only after Bail had arrived, because she’d seen him, as Yoda and Obi-Wan avoided getting recorded to ensure they had the element of surprise and she used public records that show Bail only arrived at the senate hearing around the same time Obi and Yoda were there. Reva reveals that she was captured a year or so later and tortured until she became an Inquisitor.

Obi tells her that Vader is Anakin, that she’s been working for the monster she’s been hunting, being used by him. He tries to appeal to her jedi instincts, but she rejects that, saying that she only wants revenge now, stating that she now knows how to get it. Cody hears it all.

From his ship, Vader gives the order to destroy the doors as further intimidation, to push them deeper into the base. The stormtroopers set up a canon to destroy the front doors.

Cody asks Obi if it’s true. Obi, pained, says that it is, and states that Leia must be protected from him, from the sith, her and her brother. Cody realizes how important this is for Obi, fully, and tells him how sorry he is for him losing his brother like that, like he has. Obi takes solace in his words.

This leads to further panic amongst the people. The doors are blasted open, stormtroopers rushing in. Obi-Wan fights them off with his lightsaber. The stormtroopers push the adults back into the ship docking bay of the building. Tala is shot, her robot taking further shots for her. Obi drags her out to the docking area.

They realize the second blast doors aren’t closing. The leader says the wiring must’ve been frayed by the blaster fire, that’s someone’s gonna have to go in and have them close manually, but they’ll be stuck behind them. Tala’s robot takes the sacrifice, getting shot, as it closes the door manually, holding up a grenade the kill the stormtroopers around and itself. Tala’s saddened, who Obi comforts, as he looks around at the injured people and feeling the loss of those who were killed.

Vader senses Obi’s fear, the fear of those around him, now deciding that it’s time for striking, finally taking his shuttle down to the planet, landing in front, and entering the blasted open doors of the base, to find stormtroopers and Reva, whose watching him intently, trying to use the canon on the blast doors, to little avail.

Vader orders them to leave, which they do, even Reva, Vader pulling out his lightsaber, and using it to cut through the sturdier inner blastdoors. It’s a slow process, but fast enough for fear to run through the people behind them.

They pile the children, Leia included, along with any wounded, like Tala, onto the functioning hyperdrive ship.

Obi tells Leia that they’ll ensure she gets back to her parents. Before she leaves, she asks if Obi at least knew her mother, to which Obi tells her that he did and her dad. She asks if they’ll see eachother again. Obi says he doesn’t know. Leia thanks him and when Obi tries to give her back lola which he hasn’t fixed yet, she tells him to return it to her and she’ll know he’s okay, then as she’s shuffled into the ship giving him a grateful look.

Obi tells Cody to ensure she gets to Bail on Alderran, to take them there so these children and wounded can be taken care of. Cody protests, stating that he can’t leave Obi here, he can’t leave him to possibly die. Obi insists, telling Cody that he has nothing to make up for by helping him now, that their pilot was just killed in the stormtrooper attack, that these people need him to fly them out, and that there is no one he trusts more with Leia’s life than him.

Cody looks at the people, before finding the resolve and agreeing, telling him that it’s been an honor serving him, calling him General.

Vader breaks through the doors, in time to see one of the ships take off, him stopping it mid air, beginning to pull it down.

As he does this, Reva takes her opportunity, igniting her lightsaber to kill Vader in revenge. But Vader stops her with the force, holding the ship in place, this taking all his power.

But he’s unable to stop the second ship as it takes off, the children in it. They activate the hyperdrive, escaping with the children.

Vader fully pulls down the first ship, tearing off the sides, Obi-Wan being the Pilot of that one, the parents on the ship. Obi exits it and, begrudgingly, takes out his lightsaber.

Vader sees his fear and mocks it, telling Obi that he was wise to let Reva be used as a distraction and these people as a way to hide, lifting him up with the force and pinning him to the wall, as well. Vader tells Obi that he wants him to see this, letting Reva go and, to prove a point to Obi-Wan, duels her, beating her the same way, but better choreographed, before he stabs her, leaving her to die in front of Obi, so that he can witness the consequences of his actions.

Vader has all the parents taken by the stormtroopers, and once they’ve left, he tells a still pinned Obi that he knows he won’t personally let the people die. Vader explains that if Obi wants these prisoners to live, he will come to him, give himself up willingly, for one more duel, and if Obi wins, he will let the prisoners go free.

Obi begs him to stop, to not hurt anyone else, calling him Anakin. Vader, enraged at the use of his name, chokes Obi.

Vader tells him that Anakin died with his wife and child, left for dead, that when Anakin lost everything, he ceased to be, and that was Obi’s fault. He states that Obi will pay for that, because Vader will take everything from him, break his spirit, until he has lost all the drive he has.

Vader arrogantly states that he will give Obi time prepare, so that he can stand some chance against him, telling him that he will find him where Anakin Skywalker died.

Vader leaves Obi and a dying Reva.

Obi is angry, shaken. He’s willing to confront Anakin now, he has to. In spite of this, he still patches up Reva. Reva doesn’t understand why he’s helping her. Obi is despondent. After patching her up Obi simply leaves Reva for a moment to himself.

Obi ponders what he thinks he has to do, the vision he had of him killing Anakin, the feelings he has right now, the idea of killing Vader, for everything he’s done and everything he could do, haunted by them.

Obi reaches out, asking for help, admitting that he feels he failed Anakin because he let himself become attached to Anakin, that’s what he hasn’t wanted to admit to himself, the idea that he broke the jedi code, that he failed not just Anakin, but Qui-Gon as well. In this moment, he allows himself to truly connect and hears Qui-Gon speak to him. Obi opens his eyes, finally reuniting with Qui-Gon.

EPISODE 6:

The episode opens on a FLASHBACK of:

A child Obi-Wan becoming Qui-Gon’s padawan.

Obi-Wan is rigid, tense, hard on himself, insecure about his shortcomings. Qui-Gon, seeing this in Obi-Wan, kneels, presenting himself face to face with Obi-Wan, telling him to relax, breathe, focus. Obi-Wan is confused. Qui-Gon explains to him that Yoda has told him that Obi’s very efficient in lightsaber dueling, and strong in the force. Obi-Wan is feeling fairly pleased with himself at this. But Qui-Gon then cuts that short when he tells him that his perception is different from Yoda’s, from seeing the holovids of his training. Qui-Gon tells him that he can see his connection with the force, see his skills, but also sees that he can become lost in a single action, and it opens him up to unexpected attacks, lack of knowledge of what surrounds him.

To showcase this, Qui-Gon swiftly makes a move with the force, pulling Obi-Wan’s legs out from under him, but stopping him from hitting to the ground, holding him just above it. Qui-Gon explains that as a duelist, he doesn’t focus on the force, and while using the force he doesn’t focus on his defenses. He gently sits Obi-Wan down.

Obi-Wan begins to get back up, Qui-Gon extending his hand, which Obi ignores, frustrated. Qui-Gon, seeing that, tells him that it’s okay to admit that he feels displeased, then explaining to him that accepting emotion is what it means to be a jedi, that to accept their emotions is to gain better understanding of them, and better understanding of themselves as well, and that can help them control their emotion. Obi is struck by Qui-Gon’s wisdom, then admitting that he was afraid that he would show himself unworthy to be his apprentice, that he’d fail. Qui-Gon tells him that that’s okay to feel that, that it’s okay to fail, but that it’s essential to get back up, always, because you can never move forward if you don’t. Qui-Gon gives Obi a reassuring smile, which he relaxes at.

Cut from that to PRESENT DAY:

Obi-Wan, frustrated, asks Qui-Gon where he’s been. Qui-Gon tells him that he wasn’t ready to connect with him. Obi inquires as to why. Qui-Gon tells him that only now was he ready to accept that what he feels is what’s driving him, and that only understanding of self brings this connection.

Obi, in shame, admits that he thinks he failed Anakin by becoming attached to him, that he let this happen because he refused to accept that something was really wrong, that he thinks he broke the jedi code and this is all his punishment for it.

Qui-Gon tells him that he’s carried this guilt for so long, but that it’s not the truth. Obi is taken aback by this, insisting that Anakin was his student, that if he had let himself be detached he could’ve stopped it, that Anakin was his responsibility, is his responsibility, and that’s why he must put a stop to him, once and for all. Qui-Gon asks Obi if he really believes that. Obi tells him that he has to, stating that no one else will suffer from his mistakes, that he will kill Anakin, and he will do it without Qui-Gon if he has to.

Qui-Gon tells him that he can’t do this, he can’t lose himself. Obi, more angry, tells him that he hasn’t been here and he doesn’t know him, and if he wanted a say in this he should’ve been here, that he should’ve been the one to train Anakin, that he shouldn’t have been Obi’s responsibility. Qui-Gon shows his remorse and heartbreak on his face, as Obi, showing his shame and guilt for what he said, walks past Qui. Qui-Gon simply whispers that for him to be mindful of the living force.

From there we cut to Luke getting dressed. This scene parallels the one from the first episode showing Leia do the same, the similarities and contrasts emphasized: Luke’s clothes being more simple, but still put on the same. Luke doing it himself without servants, but also with a showcase of his disinterest in the duties set out for him.

Luke goes to breakfast, with Owen and Beru. Owen tells Luke that he wants his help fixing up the moisture vaporators in the back, as they’re acting up. Luke is not happy about that, saying that they always need fixing. Owen tells him that he has to get to know how this all works, so he can fix it himself. Luke’s frustration with his situation worn on his sleeve, says he doesn’t want to. Owen tells him that it’s something he needs to learn. Luke snaps that Owen’s not his dad, he can’t tell him what to do. Owen is hurt by this. Luke regrets it, but doesn’t say anything, just stews in his resentment for a second, before getting up out of his chair and storming off.

Obi meets Reva on his way to her ship, her injuries still harming her. Obi is angry. Reva, feeling something emanating from the area, asks Obi what that was, who he was talking to. Obi says that he was talking to someone from long ago. Reva states that she felt something powerful. But before Obi can explain, he sees Reva is beginning bleed out more. In spite of his frustration, he asks Reva if she has a medpac in her ship. She says she does.

Obi tries to get her to it, but she’s apprehensive, not sure why he’s trying to help her, asking why. Obi tells her it’s because he understands what she lost, that he lost everything just like her. Reva rejects what she calls his pity, saying that she doesn’t need anyone. Obi asks her where that’s gotten her, stating that she let empire use her to hurt others, to hurt her own, to get revenge, become no different than Anakin.

Reva becomes enraged at that, getting in Obi’s face, still in pain, telling him to silence himself. Obi then asks her if she’s willing to let herself be what Anakin is, help him destroy more families, more lives, put more children through what happened to her. Reva, conflicted, states that she’s never put children in harm’s way. Obi tells her that she put Leia in harm’s way. Reva, in shame, realizes that Obi’s right, and begins to accept and say that she’s compromised so much, she didn’t let herself see it, her getting upset.

Obi has a moment of compassion, telling her that this doesn’t have to be the end, that if she understands what she’s done, then she knows why she can’t let it happen again. Reva realizes, and speaks it, that Obi needs her help. Obi tells her that if he fails, he dies, those refugees die with him, stating that whether he or Anakin win, he can distract him enough to ensure she can rescue them. Obi then asks her if she’s willing to help him to try and fix their mistakes.

On Alderran, Bail and Breha are worried, concerned about not having received word from Obi. Bail suggests if they have been caught, Owen with Luke could be found out, as well. Breha asks what they should do. Bail says that he asked Obi-Wan to rescue the girl they charged themselves with protecting, so it’s their duty, if they were caught because of that, to protect the boy on tatooine Obi-Wan charged himself to.

They’re alerted by their guards that they’ve been contacted by a ship entering their atmosphere, telling them that Leia is on board. Bail and Breha tell his guards that they allow it to dock, but use caution. He and Breha go to the docking area with armed guards, unsure of what to expect.

The ship lands, and the doors open, Leia emerging first, running to and hugging her mom and dad. They embrace her, crying tears of joy, so happy to see their daughter.

Cody, the other children behind him, begin to slowly, cautiously emerge. He walks up to Bail with caution, to show he’s peaceful. Bail recognizes that he’s a clone. Cody tells them who he is and that the Path was smuggling those who fear the empire or are being hunted by them, out of their systems, telling him that a mutual friend said Bail could be trusted because these people had nowhere else to go after the empire found their base. Leia says they have to help them. Bail, with some thought, agrees. Bail asks where their friend is, if he was captured. Cody says that he doesn’t know.

Vader awaits Obi-Wan, when he receives a message from the Palpatine. Vader, with some hesitancy, answers the message, Palpatine condescendingly asking about his use of resources in his vendetta against Kenobi. Vader tells him that Kenobi will pay for what he’s done to him. Palpatine tells him to not allow his previous life to cloud his judgement, to put an end to this tonight and he won’t be given a second chance to.

On their way to Mustafar, Obi tries to focus himself, ready himself for battle, but he struggles as it, his conflict tearing at him, as Reva watches him (after having destroyed the ship tracker, saying that mat give them some advantage of surprise), unsure what to do. She asks if he is connecting, admitting that she misses that feeling and hasn’t felt it in a long time. He admits that he hasn’t either, he was too afraid to, because of the empire, that anything he could do would bring danger. Now, he can’t focus.

Reva is concerned, asking him if he’ll be ready for this, to fight Vader. Obi tells her that he has to be, because all he has left are the futures of those Anakin could hurt, and he can never let them fall into Anakin’s hands. He says that he now understands that until one of them is dead, Anakin will hunt him and could find them, one way or another and after everything Anakin’s done, this is Obi’s responsibility to put a stop to it.

Reva herself has a moment of compassion for Obi and asks him if he can remind her their exercises to calm herself. And this does assist Obi in his thoughts going to trying to help her.

Back on tatooine at night, Beru and Owen discuss Luke, and what to do. Beru still encourages that Luke be given something to connect to his dad with. Owen contemplates this, telling her that he knows what it feels like to not know his real mother too, as she left not long after he was born, and that Shmi was the only mother he’s ever known, that he can’t let Luke know who his dad was, can’t let him suffer Anakin’s fate, can’t let Shmi’s last remaining family be lost.

Luke stands outside in the open area, looking up at the stars, similar to Leia looking up at the sky in the first episode, a longing-ness presented. Biggs contacts Luke on his walkie talkie, telling him that jabba’s thugs are back in town harassing people for water again. Luke’s anger peaks at that, exclaiming that they just did that a couple days ago. Biggs tells him Jabba’s people must be wanting to throw their weight around. Luke’s frustration rises and he asks Biggs to come to his place. Biggs says sure, but why?

Obi lands the ship on the shores of mustafar and exits it, looking out at Vader’s Castle. He tells Reva to wait until he’s inside before she gets near, so that Vader will be distracted. Obi tells Reva that he can sense that there’s no guards in the castle, so she should

He walks to the castle, enters it and, feeling Vader’s presence, follows that feeling, leading into a circular chamber of cells where the people are being held (only the outer bars of cells being visible in this room, while the doors are on the other side of the cell), the glow of the lava flowing through the castle’s tube system that runs to the other side of the river into the lavafall.

Meanwhile Reva enters the castle, following the hallways and feeling out where the people are.

In the castle, Obi sees a stone staircase at the back of the chamber, which Vader stands at the top of, Obi looking up at him. Vader asserts that he came as he steps down to Obi. Obi replies that he knew he would. Vader confirms that he knew Obi would be desperate to prove himself as a jedi, to prove that he wasn’t a failure. Obi tells Vader that he’s come to put an end to this. Vader, pulling out his lightsaber, is almost amused beneath his anger as he tells Obi that he will fail, igniting the saber, asking if Obi is finally ready to battle him. Obi holds his silence, takes out his saber, readies his stance and ignites, saying that he is.

They both attack eachother at the same time, Obi’s fighting far more aggressive than usual.

Their sabers clash. Obi’s aggression rising at it’s peak as he hears the people in the cells asking for help, though Vader’s tactics being the one to force Obi even still on the defensive in comparison, pushing him backwards onto and up the stone steps. Vader quickly makes a slice at Obi’s feet, but Obi is quick to avoid, quickly stepping back, but Vader is quick too, making a lunge at Obi in the moment he’s on the backfoot, but Obi is prepared, bring his saber to block it.

Obi uses their lightsaber’s pressing against eachother, to turn them in opposite directions and quickly slashes at the ground at Vader’s feet, making him step back, Obi then swinging at Vader’s head, slashing at the side of Vader’s helmet, this clearly throws Vader off his footing entirely, Obi having the clear upper hand, now being the one to push Vader back. Vigorously attacking with his saber, Obi pushes Vader back down the stone steps, and then in a quick movement reaches out to crush his control box on his chest, which slows Vader even more, him dropping his saber and forces him to his knees.

Obi sees the seemingly defeated Vader and raises his saber to deal a fatal blow, just like in his nightmare. But he hesitates, and when Vader looks up at him, the broken helmet showing his burned face, the broken damaged man underneath it, Obi can’t do it, his compassion for Anakin winning out.

Obi lowers the saber, filled with remorse for what he nearly did, what happened to Anakin years ago, calling him by his name: Anakin. Vader tells him that Anakin is gone, and that he’s all there is now. Obi wants to try and tells him that he’s sorry, for everything, telling him that they can fix this.

For the briefest moment, Anakin’s eyes show a flash of sadness, before igniting in rage, exclaiming that Obi DARES to show him mercy. Vader’s rage flares within him, as he pulls his saber back to himself and slashes at the ground Obi stands upon, pushing him back, then tears stone from the walls around him, hurling them at Obi, bringing parts of the chamber’s ceiling down on him (the outer walls cracking), nearly crushing him, but he avoids it, though it catches his legs, Vader slowing the fall of the stone to hold him in place rather than crush them.

Vader states that Obi is still too weak to finish things and he’s so disappointing, then telling him that he will make Obi watch these people die and kill him finally.

Reva has made it to the outer part of the cell chambers, the people at first afraid of her, her telling them that she came to help. She quickly tries to get the mechanism to unlock the doors.

Obi tries to use the force to lift the rock, but his emotions are unfocused, he’s torn up at what he nearly did, what Vader’s going to do, and in this desperate moment asks for Qui-Gon’s help.

Qui-Gon’s hand extends, resting on Obi’s shoulder, Qui telling Obi that it’s going to be okay. Obi, emotional, tells Qui that he’s sorry for what he said.

Qui says they all make mistakes, saying that Obi did feel attachment for Anakin, it’s something as jedi they all can have to face in their emotions, in learning to control them, admitting that he himself became attached the idea of his responsibility, confessing that he didn’t perceive the true darkness around them, didn’t maintain his balance of being mindful of the living force and the cosmic force, because he thought it was his responsibility to ensure the galaxy’s balance and that blinded him. Qui then confesses that that’s something he took on from his mentor, and that the guilt Obi feels for making this mistake is what’s tormenting him and that failure is on Qui.

Obi refuses that, saying that he failed Qui-Gon as well as failing Anakin, that he didn’t train him the way Qui would’ve, but tried to train him as Yoda would, that he betrayed Qui’s memory by doing that.

Qui states that, no, that he failed Obi, by placing a duty on him when he had no right to, by placing that responsibility he felt onto Obi, he burdened Obi and Obi has defined himself by that, saying that he’s sorry for it, continuing that we all fail, but you can’t let it define your life or you can lose yourself, and that is how Anakin became lost. Qui stating that he shouldn’t have forced that responsibility on him, it should’ve always been his choice. But states that Obi’s wiser than he is and knows how to let go of this, but that he’s afraid to, because he thinks it’d mean betraying the Anakin he knew.

Obi has a moment of emotional swallowing and acceptance, and admits to himself and Qui that he can’t save Anakin, couldn’t save Anakin, that there’s nothing he can do, that he can’t undo what’s been done, that he’s powerless. Qui states that he can’t, stating that to understand that you are powerless can help you to understand that you are apart of something greater, that we make choices, but can never control the outcome, that Obi can’t control what will or won’t be, only what he does with the path he’s given, even when they fall.

Qui extends his hand to Obi, asking what is essential that we always must do when we fall. Obi’s face becomes steely with resolve and he states to always get back up, taking Qui’s hand, and standing up, obviously not with Qui’s actual physical help, more symbolic, as Obi, now with focus, is using the force to lift the stone off of his legs, allowing him to stand.

The music rises as Obi-Wan does, unafraid, focused, certain. Vader turns back to him, saying that he’s not yet broken. Obi brings his lightsaber back to himself and replies that he never will be, as he reignites it. Vader does the same and says that it’s only a matter of time, making the first strike at him.

Reva realizes that she has to act fast and ignites her saber, using it to slash at the doors of the cells, releasing the people.

In the middle of continuing fight, Vader senses this, realizing that Obi brought the traitor Reva. Vader uses the force to choke Obi in that moment so he can reach out to pull down the ceiling onto the escapees, but Obi slashes at his arm as he does so, preventing it.

This allows Reva to get the people out of the chamber and out of the castle, rushing to her ship.

Vader states that there’s nothing left for him to fight for, asking him what he thinks he can accomplish: No matter who he tries to help he will only fail them like he did him, destroy them, like he did Anakin. Obi admits that he did fail Anakin, he didn’t see Anakin’s struggles, didn’t want to see them and what could happen because he loved him and he burdened him with the pressure of being a great jedi, but then states cleanly that he didn’t kill Anakin though, that Vader destroyed Anakin’s life, took his wife and child from him, and from that Vader was truly born, firmly stating that Vader killed Anakin.

Vader becomes enraged and lashes out against Obi at this. Obi fights back, they’re evenly matched, Vader’s anger bringing a formidable attack, but Obi’s focus and tactics is able to hold him off. Vader makes a reckless tactic and slices at the inner chamber of the lava flowing through his castle with his lightsaber, the lava beginning to pour in, it coming between them.

Vader, enraged, eyes glowing with anger, states that Obi will burn.

Obi and Vader look at eachother one last time(Vader’s eyes enflared with anger and almost sadness, Obi’s eyes filled with sadness and pity) as the lava pours between them until it blocks their view of eachother. Obi uses the force to hold it back from himself, but he can’t fully, that part of the castle beginning to crack underneath him, pieces from the wall falling into the lavafall below the castle.

Reva and the people get into the ship, and, sensing what’s going on, decides after a moment’s hesitation to go back for him, instructing the leader of the path to get the ship over to the side of the castle, which he does, her opening the cargo hatch. Reva stands on the edge of the hatch, reaching out to Obi, stating that he has to leap to her, and they can pull themselves towards eachother with the force. Obi agrees, and leaps out the broken wall, pulling towards her and her pulling him to her as well, just in time for the crumbling part of the castle he stood upon to fall off the edge into the lava.

Obi thanks Reva for this, and she thanks him. In this moment, Obi senses something in his now returned focus, that Luke is in danger, and he quickly instructs Reva that he has to get to tatooine and then she can return these people to their families.

Back on tatooine, Beru goes to check on Luke to get him for dinner, finding that he’s gone. She tells Owen, both of their concern shown on their face.

Luke and Biggs are watching from afar on the side of a sandhill with binoculars as Jabba’s thugs, with the water they’d taken in their speeder, drinking inside a tatooine bar. Luke shows his anger at this, and decides to get the water, so they can take it back to the people. Biggs thinks Luke is crazy, telling him not to. Luke is fired up and does it anyway.

Biggs is freaking out, but holds back. He waits a second, unsure, seeing Luke quickly creep up to the speeder, uncovering the tarp. Biggs, with begrudgement, starts to go over to Luke to help, but sees the thugs exit the bar and hides again, signaling to Luke about it, who when he sees as well, swiftly crawls into the back and covers himself up. Biggs is terrified for Luke.

Obi is now on tatooine, in town, rushing to his eopie from the landing pad. In that moment, he senses the danger Luke is in at this moment and reaches out to sense Luke’s location. Sensing his distance, he knows the eopie can’t get him there in time. In a moment of frustration, he looks around, seeing the speeder of the boss who shortchanged the employee in the premiere, him passed out drunk in the seat. Obi cocks an eyebrow, getting an idea.

Back with Owen and Beru, they’re looking for Luke, yelling for him. Biggs pulls up on his skyhopper, and, panicked, tells them what’s happened. Beru and Owen are freaked out, asking where they are.

Luke is hiding in the back of the speeder, the water tanks banging back and forth. One of the tanks turns over and hits Luke, him grunting in pain at it. The thugs bring the speeder to a halt, having heard him. After getting out, they go to the back, pulling the tarp off, seeing Luke.

In anger they pull him out and throw him to the ground, asking him what he thinks he’s doing. Luke is afraid, but defiant, telling them that they hurt people and that someone had to stand up to them, stating that he’s not afraid of them. They, with a laugh at him, strike him in the face, knocking him out, when suddenly the lights of the speeder are blown out.

In the dark, Obi emerges into the sight of the thugs and swiftly takes them down, and then with a jedi mind trick, tells them to take the water back to the people, and tell Jabba that they lost it in a sand beast attack and never again to take more from people than they can give.

Owen and Beru, having gathered their rifles, are ready to get in their speeder and go after the thugs, when another speeder pulls up, the lights shining too bright in the dark for them to see. Owen and Beru ready their rifles in fear.

The person, getting out and walking towards them, revealing that it’s Obi carrying Luke. Owen and Beru slowly lower their rifles and rush towards him, taking Luke from Obi, Beru clutching him tight and Obi standing back, exchanging a look of respect between them all.

Later that night, Luke wakes up and hugs Owen and Beru, saying he’s sorry. Owen and Beru are stern, but comforting, telling Luke that they’re proud of him, but that he has to be careful and can never put himself in danger like that. Luke tells them that he had to do something, he wanted to do the right thing.

Owen sits down and tells Luke that he can do the right thing and still be careful and that that’s something Luke’s dad knew, because he was someone who took a job on a spice freighter that was for a republic official disposal of spice, as a navigator to provide for his family, he tried to do the right thing at what was a careful job, and he died in a crash, but he was still a good man.

On mustafar, Vader stands looking out of the cracked broken front of his castle, hollow and contemplative. He’s informed of another message from the Emperor. Palpatine congratulates Vader on his victory. Vader is solemn, saying he’s not sure of his death, but also saying that it doesn’t matter, stating he now understands that Kenobi wasn’t holding him back, that Anakin Skywalker was, that Palpatine was right. Palpatine says of course he was. Vader affirms that Anakin is dead. Palpatine tells Vader to remember what he is. Vader says that he is what Palpatine made him and he won’t forget that, as his fist is held tightly in anger.

The next morning the drunk boss wakes up with his speeder returned to him.

Meanwhile, Leia is getting dressed on her own, not with the help of servants this time. She talks to Bail, telling them that they have to do more to help people, and Bail agrees, him telling her that they will. Leia asks if they’ve heard anything about Ben, but he says not yet.

They then get a report from the security of another ship coming, this time an imperial ship, and, being cautious, they approach the landing pad, seeing Reva exit it, with the rest of the people, all those parents being reunited with their kids.

Reva has a moment of catharsis seeing these families reunited and presents herself to Bail and Breha, telling them that she’s responsible for the danger their daughter was in and she accepts their punishment. But, with insistence from Leia, they forgive her and tell her that her punishment can be to ensure these families find places where they’ll be safe and protect them. Reva, with much emotional gratefulness, gives the fixed lola droid to Leia, telling her that Ben is still alive and that he wanted this to be returned to her. Cody sees and hears this with relief.

Bail takes Leia on a trip to tatooine, to Owen and Beru’s moisture farm, where Bail meets Owen (as Leia waits in the speeder) and tells Owen, whose not really sure who he is, that he paid off mortgage on the moisture farm and when Owen asks why, Bail tells him that he knows what it’s like to be responsible for a remarkable child. Owen understands at seeing Leia, and says, that Bail is like him. Owen asks if the daughter is okay (in concern for Shmi’s other grandchild), and Bail says that she is. In a moment of connection, Bail and Owen shake hands. As this happens, Luke is playing with his ship and he looks at Leia and she looks at him and they wave at eachother. As Bail and Leia leave, Obi watches from afar.

Obi packs up his cave, deciding to leave for a more secure location, going out into the desert and digging up a box that holds Anakin’s lightsaber and a small green kyber crystal (Obi no longer needing to hide from his trauma about it). He visits Owen, who tells Obi thank you for helping Luke. Obi tells him that he was right for wanting Luke’s protection and Obi is going to step back, saying that he understands now that he can’t control the past or the future, just what he does in the moment, so that anything Luke does will be his choice and not something he’s pushed into. Obi tells Owen Luke is a good kid and that he’ll still be there if he’s needed, but at a distance.

In a type of montage we see: Obi connecting with Qui Gon who is teaching him, at his new home, which he mind tricked that boss into letting him stay and give people the wage he agreed to give them first. Cody, whose now the personal guard for Bail and Breha and Leia. Reva, now the protector the refugees as they’re settling on a planet. Luke, Owen and Beru working on the farm together.

Then finally Obi riding his eopie through the desert and, seeing people being attacked by some raiders, has decided that he’s going to help those who need it on tatooine when and where he can, no longer holding back his jedi instincts, but keeping hidden and making himself seem like some type of desert wraith. With a smirk, Obi lifts his hood up over his head and continues forward.

END.

Post credits scene is one of the lower level thugs that worked for the ones Reva hired, having been brought before someone who sits on a throne in the shadows, explaining that the heads of the spice operation were killed by an Inquisitor who was cover their tracks, so he knows very little, but he knows that this was about them drawing a jedi out. The leader stands up from the throne and walks into the light, revealing himself to be Maul and says to tell him who the jedi was.

Please review and tell me what you think!

Post
#1655609
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Spartacus01 said:

For me, there’s only one moment in Attack of the Clones where Anakin comes across as genuinely creepy. It’s the scene where Padmé tells him that she feels uncomfortable when he looks at her in a certain way. As she’s leaving, Anakin turns to look at her and says, “Sorry, my lady,” while giving her an almost predatory look.

That’s the only point in the whole movie where I feel like his behavior crosses the line from awkward to actually creepy. In the rest of the film, yes, he’s kind of intense and says some weird things, but it mostly just feels cringey, not threatening. However, to be fair, I don’t think that scene was written or directed to come across that way. I doubt George Lucas or Hayden Christensen meant for Anakin’s look to feel predatory. I think they were aiming for a flirtatious or maybe even a little bit teasing look, but the execution didn’t quite work.

I think a big part of why Anakin’s look feels so off comes down to Hayden’s facial features. He has very Nordic traits: blue eyes, high cheekbones, fair skin, etc. And I’ve noticed that people with that kind of facial structure can sometimes come across as unsettling or even creepy when they try to pull off charming or smug expressions. It’s not about what they’re trying to communicate; it’s just how those facial features translate certain expressions. What’s meant to look confident or seductive can easily come off as cold or unsettling instead. I’ve seen it happen plenty of times in real life too.

So I don’t think the problem is in the acting or the directing. It’s more of a visual mismatch between intention and result. The moment was probably supposed to feel playful or a bit bold, but because of how Hayden’s face registers that particular expression, it ends up giving a totally different vibe.

I mostly think similarly. I was kinda confused by the presentation by some on here as Anakin being creepy overall, instead of just cringy, which I don’t not think similarly on. I can see cringy. It’s a criticism I have on the movie and some scenes in it as well.

Post
#1655529
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

SparkySywer said:

What would change your mind? What counts as “actively making her mad”? I think the first scene they have together (starting when they meet, ending when Padmé “retires”) is pretty damning, and that’s why I brought it up like three or four times. Clearly you don’t. What do you think is going through these characters’ minds in these scenes if not a really negative perception of Anakin? Why did George Lucas cut to these reaction shots of everyone in the room being uncomfortable? What was he trying to communicate?

When Anakin makes an inappropriate advance on Padmé within seconds of meeting her for the first time since he was nine, why does she react the way she does? What’s going through her head? And what does her response mean?

It would be one thing if George Lucas was just not very socially gifted and accidentally wrote Anakin in a way that came off as creepy, and an asshole. But the movie seems to intentionally draw attention to it. It’s just baffling. What do you think she sees in him?

Him trying to upset her and her getting mad is what I would consider that. Anakin is neither trying to upset her and neither do I think she gets mad at him in their first scene. He’s just being overly awkward. Your words on how you describe the situation is changing, to me. You said it makes Padme mad, now you’re bringing up the idea of a negative perception of Anakin. I don’t think Padme is mad at Anakin at all in that scene. Awkward, yes, but mad? And I don’t think he’s being a jerk to her in that scene either. A jerk to Obi, yeah, but not her and I don’t think she gets mad at him for it.

I think the term “advance” is a bit much. He over shares his feelings and then tries to correct it as a light moment of banter, to me, ‘for a senator I mean’. I see her response as a light awkwardness, not being mad at him. If you think she should feel a different way, I think that’s your opinion and you have your God given free will to have it, but I’m not sure I think the same really.

I debate the notion of being creepy to that degree. I think he has scenes where he could come off as weird or such, but I don’t see it as that creepy that much.

I’m not defending how the relationship dynamics unfold. I said to someone else above I think the writing isn’t that strong, to me. But my main criticisms aren’t Anakin acts creepy.

I’ll give you this one, I forgot about that scene.

I think the majority of their scenes are mostly amicable, until Anakin overly shares and presses things into awkwardness or weird. I think some kind of creepiness could be there, but I don’t see it as that huge of a deal. To me, it’s all awkward dialogue and romance building issues. I think the movie is put in a position to build their entire romance from scratch, based on TPM making them not peers (this isn’t a criticism of that choice, more an observation, from my perspective, as I think Anakin’s age works more for nearly every other relationship he has, except Padme), and on top of that I think it makes it so the bulk of their relationship bonding happens within the movie to get them to being in love at the end.

Compared to Han and Leia, I think it’s weaker written in dynamics and structure, where Han and Leia’s bonding in ANH occurs with them as closer to peers in spite of their overall age difference, and in TESB it’s suggested their relationship bonding has continued in-between movies, which I think takes the bonding writing pressure off of their relationship. I have criticisms about how they’re relationship is written, but I still think it’s written overall stronger.

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#1655481
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Vladius said:

I’m not talking about your personal anecdotes or you personally, I’m talking about a general trend. I have my own anecdote where I showed family members all six movies for the first time in release order, and they both liked the original trilogy more, and had basically all the same criticisms people had of the prequels when they first came out, with the notable exception that they loved Jar Jar. If there are people who like them after seeing them for the first time, that doesn’t say how much they like them, why they like them, or whether they have any taste in movies. Some people just like anything that has a lot of spectacle.

Not speaking personally either. This is a thing that has happened. People watch these movies, reaction videos are out there. It’s public.

I didn’t talk about people liking the OT better or not. I’m not doing a tit for that about the adoration of one over the other.

Or maybe, instead of some people liking anything that has a lot of spectacle, maybe some fans who watched them over-reacted to their issues and resort to dismissing others and their tastes as “interest in spectacle”, rather than having the perception that their own opinion isn’t the only way to view the movies.

I looked it up again and this is the direct quote:
“Mace: Do you think these cloners are involved in the plot to assassinate Senator Amidala?
Obi-Wan: No, Master, there appears to be no motive.
Yoda: Do not assume anything, Obi-Wan. Clear, your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.”

They easily count as “involved in the plot”, and you can put together that assassinating an anti-war figure while creating an army seems like a pretty clear motive. The reason for starting a war would be more ambiguous (you might suspect it’s arms dealers for example), but starting a war is clearly what the “real villains” want, and the cloners are clearly “involved” with that. I guess if you’re taking it strictly literally then all the Kaminoans themselves want is money, yes, but they’re still a part of the plot.

I think you’re reading into the line, when I think it means if they’re the ones who did or have a hand in it. Either way, it doesn’t effect anything, as they have no motive, because in the movies it’s never developed they have any knowledge on it. Criticize it as a point if you want, but if they investigated they’d have nothing.

The Jedi could do something about it and find proof, but they never do. Even in EU material and TCW, they don’t even try, maybe because it would be too obvious and make the plot unravel. There were parts in Revenge of the Sith where they discuss who Sifo Dyas was and what exactly happened, but they were cut for time. It just seems like it should be a much bigger priority and something they could check on.

I pointed out that I criticize that. But I don’t agree that they could simply find proof all by itself.

For the Han Solo/Anakin stuff I have to conclude that you don’t have very much real life experience with certain social situations and dynamics. The stereotypes are based on real things that happen, which is why one strikes people as plausible and engaging and the other strikes people as uncomfortable and bizarre. This even goes across cultural boundaries - I was reading a manga from the 2000s the other day where the author joked about how there was no way Padme would fall for Anakin. There’s modern day criticism that Han is being too aggressive in the kissing scene on the Falcon, but it’s not because the characters are written or portrayed unrealistically, it’s more about the cultural messaging it has. Their bickering, banter, back and forth snipping, etc. are a kind of flirting.

Some fans try to belittle others just because someone disagrees with them about these movies, don’t they? Even though I said that I think similarly that Han and Leia is stronger written, you take such issue with it. Stereotypes mean nothing to this, neither does beleivability. Some women/men become obsessed with serial killers and like reylo in real life (and like Anakin and Padme as well as a romance), this means nothing to writing quality of the relationship in the movie, which I think similarly in that it was weaker written than the relationship in TESB. It doesn’t matter to me, as I criticized characters coming off as creepy and whiny and complaining, not about realism.

Post
#1655310
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong>? - a general discussion thread
Time

JadedSkywalker said:

I wholly dislike Luke’s arc in Rise of Skywalker. Just pointless really. Key jangling. Ooh look he raised the ship out of the swamp like Yoda. and he admonishes Rey on chucking a lightsaber because that was what he did in episode 8, he did the Jake on an island. It’s time for the Jedi to end.

I was a coward, but Rian didn’t write me that way but don’t tell JJ.

I think he did write him as a coward. He may not have realized it, but I think he did it. Because Luke in TLJ is a petty childish person whose constantly blaming everyone else for his own mistakes (blames the Jedi when they have nothing to do with his wrong actions against Kylo, blames Kylo for just randomly attacking him out of nowhere, as far as he says) and feigning guilt, while never actually admitting what he did, avoiding the actual blame and shame of his actions, and hiding from it all. Only admitting it when Rey confronts him with it.

He never trained Rey the movie pretends he did and acts like Skywalker was her previous master before Leia.

Maybe a little, but also not really much I think.

And Han was the kind of father figure that Kylo killed.

But TLJ disregarded that emotional resonance for Rey in favor of Rey having a romance with Kylo. Though also, TROS has Leia be Rey’s mentor to try and work in that point of Leia being important to Rey.

They hint at Finn’s force sensitivity in 7 and 9 and do nothing with it.

I think similarly. Though TLJ also did nothing with it, in spite of 7 seemingly hinting at it.

These films are endlessly debated and disappointing.

I think similarly.

Post
#1655216
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Vladius said:

For nostalgia - what you said before was that it was some Plinkett thing. What Plinkett was talking about at the time (2012 apparently) was original trilogy fans who went into the prequels excited about it and willing to overlook any problems because they were already fans. That was true to some extent. What we’re talking about today with nostalgia is largely younger millennials and Gen Z kids who watched the prequels as children, played prequel-themed video games, watched The Clone Wars on Cartoon Network, and so on. You might be in this demographic, I don’t know. In any case, they don’t really understand the context or why there was so much backlash, they just watch a video about how people were mean to Jake Lloyd and Ahmed Best and George Lucas and think that that means the original fans were just big meanies, and not that there were serious quality issues with the script and production that caused genuine disappointment. They were too young to think about it, and today refuse to engage with it critically beyond video essays about how the prequels were underrated. That’s what we mean by nostalgia.

I’m saying that’s used even now and it falls apart as a claim under scrutiny, as it’s one proven false based on people who watch the PT movies, for the first time in present day apparently and like them. TCW addition has nothing to do with what I said.

The context is only in the emotions of fans at the time. Everything in the movies, for those that watch them now, is still there. How actors were treated also has no relevance to what I said, because it means nothing to whether or not they like the movie.

The cloners in that scenario are affiliated with Jango Fett, who they know definitely tried to kill Padme. It’s an obvious connection to make and not literally just about the Kaminoans. The connection is confirmed when Jango is working directly for Dooku. All the actions line up. Trying to kill the most prominent public figure arguing against war, setting up an army in secret, then setting up another army in secret to fight that army. It’s not rocket science. Even without the Separatists, it makes sense for someone plotting a war to raise an army and kill the person trying to oppose an army.

The scene is about the cloners. That’s what they ask Obi about, if they were behind it and Obi replies about them having no motive. You said Obi stupidly says that there appears to be no motive to Yoda about the cloners. How is that stupid of him in that scene?

As for everything else, I criticized that not being explored. But that doesn’t change that you expect them to assume it’s fact without any evidence. I think that this could’ve been done better and it’s a weak writing thing in the movie, but it doesn’t do much, as the Jedi can’t do anything about it even if the movie weighed in on it more, as they have no proof, just assumptions.

Do you understand how a military works? It requires serious coordination between thousands or tens of thousands of people. The clones have to be put under some kind of command structure. Yoda didn’t do all that himself in 10 minutes before they all flew to Geonosis. There were star destroyers and troop carriers and tanks all ready to go, so either those were built on Kamino as well (unlikely, we don’t see that at all and it’s a huge ocean) or someone in the Republic had them ready to go and kept it secret. There would have to be a pretty decent sized paper trail to investigate, and they just don’t seem to care.

I always thought that everything the clones had were kaminoan built. It’s a huge facility, that I think we certainly don’t see all of. They get their armors and weapons there. I don’t see why I shouldn’t have the perspective the ships were from there too.

Yes I know Yoda says that. It’s like Dooku was doing some goofy reverse psychology thing. “If I tell them everything that’s going on, they won’t believe me and they’ll think the opposite!” And they just fall for it because they’re written as morons. They don’t do anything about the senate.

They said they would keep a close eye on the senate. That doesn’t make it so they’d do anything, especially if nothing particularly happens in the senate for them to do anything about. When something does happen, like Palpatine being given more emergency powers and Palpatine putting Anakin on the council as his representative in the movies, the Jedi do start to do stuff. Like I said, I don’t take real issue with criticizing that we don’t see it, really, but the Jedi do still have some engagement in the situation.

What Han does is completely different from Anakin and apparently you didn’t read what I said. Anakin complains about his personal life, tells her that he’s obsessed with her, leers at her in a way that makes her uncomfortable, says that she’s in his soul tormenting him, etc. It’s weird and no real woman would ever be into that unless she had such an extreme physical attraction that she didn’t care. Maybe that’s all it was. Han is being cocky and brash and aggressive, but he isn’t telling Leia he’s obsessed with her or having dreams about her or putting her on a pedestal. When he’s complaining and yelling he’s teasing her. He impresses her with genuine confidence, competence, and skill. He’s playing the “bad boy” persona, which is a cliche but it’s absolutely true and not just a Hollywood thing. Anakin is the weirdo “nice guy.”

I read it and I think it’s bunk. Han leers, complains about Leia not showing her feelings to him, is fairly pervy. As if that’s not weird. No, I think Han complaining and yelling isn’t teasing her in that scene. He’s depicted as being petty and venting, to me. The teasing part comes later and is where the pervy attitude starts.

All I think you’re using is weak generic concepts, bad boy, nice guy. It means nothing. I criticize the writing of Anakin and Padme’s relationship, but thin, to me, terms like creepy or weird being used suggesting it somehow is worse than Han means nothing to me.

What is a criticism of it, to me, is that Han and Leia I think are stronger written, in structure, because Han and Leia in ANH were more like peers and when we see them in TESB they are heavily implied to have worked together for a time, which I think allows a lot of the heavy lifting of the relationship to already be done. Anakin and Padme don’t get that writing allowance. I can criticize Han and Leia, in that we barely actually explore Leia’s side of this issue and the tension angle is fairly cheap to me, along with Han’s whiny attitude, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s stronger written. I’m just against the thin, to me, complaints about Anakin being called creepy.

Post
#1655173
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong>? - a general discussion thread
Time

daveybjones999 said:

Except that while yes in The Last Jedi there’s an emotional connection between them that you could read as being romantic, but the film ends with Rey literally rejecting him she actually rejects him twice. The last scene of Kylo Ren in the movie is him looking up and seeing Rey in one of their force connection moments, while she stares at him and closes the door. She literally closing the door on there even being a romance between them. It’s Rise of Skywalker that decides, actually no there is romantic connection between them, not Last Jedi. Sure you could argue that Last Jedi is undoing the potential romance between Rey and Finn, but it’s not undoing the antagonistic relationship between Rey and Kylo Ren. The start the movie as foes and end the movie as foes. Sure they make their relationship more complex and hint that there could be something between them, but Rey rejects it and they and the movie as foes.

What you just argued is that the movie wastes an entire film setting up a romance that it then seeks to shirk away from, making it’s own story pointless. That the romance exists at all is what I criticize, not whether or not the end of the movie tries to hide it. It came out of nowhere, was trash written and then Kylo is dumb and a psycho so Rey rejects being with him, being used to sideline Rey in her own story and make her subservient to Kylo’s agency and what he wants and needs for his story. I think that’s just undoing it and then doing it again at best, which I think renders it pointless.

It does undo the antagonism, because it strips away all of Rey’s anger and issues with Kylo and then shrugs at just them still being enemies, because Rey’s not a psycho and Kylo is. That means nothing to them as characters. I think that the romance happened at all was nonsense. There was no point. Them being foes is just Rey being a hero and Kylo being a villain. By shirking away all of Rey’s reasons to hate Kylo, based on her personal experiences with him, in putting them in a romance, the movie strips Rey of all her emotional agency in being against for her personal experiences with him and what he did to her, instead making her against him because he’s the bad guy and she’s the hero, not because of anything he did to her or anyone she cares about.

I think there’s no real complexity to ‘Rey fell for Kylo out of nowhere and she hates him again’.

As far as Kylo goes, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Snoke is an incredibly boring and dull villain with literally nothing to him. Ren is way more interesting of a character given his past and his character motivations. Sure a complex character isn’t necessarily better than a simple character but I think Kylo Ren is the best thing about the entire trilogy and one of only things that’s consistently good through all 3 movies.

I think Kylo has no real past or real motivations in TLJ. The closest thing is Luke went psycho once, so Kylo murdered every single person in his jedi school and joined Snoke. Why does he want to rule the galaxy? Why did he join Snoke? Why does he want power? Who was Kylo before he became a maniac? The movie has nothing. My goodness by the time we reveal that Vader is Luke’s dad in the OT in TESB, we’ve learned more about him as a whole. We get no information about Kylo beyond the vague notion of Kylo being turned by Snoke and having too much Vader in him, and then Luke’s mental breakdown in the tent and then Kylo just a psycho now who wants to assist the first order into blowing up planets, kisses Snoke’s behind and is willing to murder his dad. Why? I dunno. Something something power, something something Vader maybe? For some reason?

Post
#1655158
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong>? - a general discussion thread
Time

daveybjones999 said:

but even if you agree that Last Jedi did abandon what was setup by Force Awakens, at least most of the runtime of the 8th movie isn’t devoted to undoing what the previous movie did. There’s also a lot of things that aren’t properly setup that just happened hear, the film feels more like a series of video game fetch quests instead of a cohesive narrative, and it lazily brings back Palpatine. I actually used to like the movie but the more I rewatched it the more I grew to hate the movie.

I’d disagree, as I think reylo being a romance existing in TLJ alone undoes TFA, which I think set up a straightforward antagonistic relationship and I think TLJ undoes that and undoes the potential relationship dynamic between Finn and Rey in pursuit of it, which was a lot of TFA. I think reylo is a solid amount of that movie. That, plus, just shrugging and going the first order rules the galaxy now. While TFA was open ended on the galaxy, I find it out of nowhere that the first order rule the galaxy.

As far as bringing back Palpatine, well, I think that’s poor writing construction, but also Kylo is a complete black hole of a character and a villain (anything you could do is basically soft rebooting him, which I think both DOTF, if it’s legit, and TROS both do, in different ways), so I don’t care enough. I think Kylo has basically nothing to offer. At least Palpatine is entertaining to me. I’ve had a stance for some time that I’d have preferred if Kylo had just been killed by Snoke. They’re already wrecking the whole family of Skywalkers/Solos, so who cares if that garbage pail of a character Kylo survives. That’d have been actually surprising to me. At least Snoke has gravitas to me.

Post
#1655102
Topic
What do you think of the <strong>Sequel Trilogy</strong>? - a general discussion thread
Time

I think these movies are pretty obnoxiously, surprisingly poor constructed. They’re not even just rip offs of the OT, they’re shoddy to dumb rip offs/remixes of the OT. Only difference is that they lack an overall story and character point to it all to me. TLJ in particular, to me, is removed from even it’s own trilogy in character weight where, boy, does it want to pretend it does things, when it’s more a poor man’s remix of TESB with a twist of ROTJ thrown in at the end. It pretends Kylo is important as a character and a villain, while not giving him anything that makes him either. At least Snoke had gravitas. Kylo has neither importance as a character to the story or importance to the main character in actual writing construction. Atrocious empty black hole of a character, the worst villain in live action Star Wars by a country mile to me. Rey is sidelined in her own movie, made into a stump on a log that mostly just sits there as Luke and Kylo whine about nothing, while she has no real questions or concerns and is only acts out of defense of poor wittle Kylo in a I think somehow worst romance in Star Wars movies mode, which is hilarious when Anakin and Padme exist, but even the PT cleared the bare minimum of romantic engagement between characters to me. reylo alone is worse writing, to me, than any of the PT relationships.

Post
#1654966
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

SparkySywer said:

Not really. Maybe those are the only two scenes where they’re openly conflicting with each other, but in four out of five of the scenes they have together before they’re suddenly making out, Anakin’s being an asshole and pissing her off. I don’t know if that’s what you mean by a “facial feature thing”, but the emotions the actors are expressing convey the intended effect of the scene. Rewatch their first scene together in the movie. It cuts in reaction shots from Padmé, Captain Typho, and Jar Jar (!!) while Obi-Wan is spanking him to communicate to us that Anakin is making the whole room uncomfortable and being a huge dick. The scene uses Jar Jar to tell us to look down on Anakin’s behavior. What does she see in him?

Give me those scenes where he’s actively making her mad and she gets mad. What are they? Because I remember:

Scene where they meet, which isn’t him trying to make her mad, nor does she get mad.

Scene where he back talks Obi, which she doesn’t get mad at.

The you’re making me uncomfortable scene, which even in that scene is just Anakin and her talking until he gives her that look.

Then they exchange a little moment and joke about having R2.

They talk in transport about the Jedi rules. I think Anakin maybe is forward in this scene and she does have a tentative look, but no anger.

Then them walking through Naboo, a fairly amicable scene to me.

Then the scene where he gets mad about her saying he’s not a Jedi.

Then the sand and kiss scene.

Most of those moments between them aren’t angry at all, to me. That’s not even counting the scenes after that, where they talk near the waterfall or the scene and while they’re eating. Even the haunted by the kiss scene isn’t really about anger. Then there’s the tattooine stuff, which is all fairly amicable I think.

Post
#1654955
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

SparkySywer said:

The scene where Anakin’s making Padmé feel uncomfortable, and when she tells him to stop he has a weird smirk into a grimace, is pretty creepy. There are multiple scenes at the beginning of Attack of the Clones too where Anakin’s behavior toward and talking about Padmé piss off Padmé, Obi-Wan, and even Jar Jar, even if they all let him off easy. None of this is unintentional. This is how Anakin is meant to come off in Attack of the Clones, and some of it might make some sense given that he’s a hormonal, emotionally unintelligent teenager. But it’s so constant and so extreme, and he has so few redeeming qualities that it’s really baffling why George Lucas wanted to dedicate an entire movie where Anakin is just unbearable. He only barely shows some maturing during the fight with Count Dooku at the end, but he still has to get his ass bailed out by Yoda.

Like I said, facial feature thing to me. Only Obi-Wan does he make Obi annoyed that much, I think.

In the movie, there’s only 2 moments do they have any conflict (the look makes me uncomfortable moment, and when he gets uppity about her calling him not a Jedi but a padawan) about it, the rest are either amicable or romance based, barring the scene where they butt heads about whether or not they rescue Obi.

I have little issue with Anakin’s conflicting emotional state in this movie, as I prefer him to be someone in turmoil moreso, based on his story in the movie and the trajectory of his character.

Han and Leia’s romance isn’t great either but it’s playing into older Hollywood romance tropes, whereas Anakin being kind of a creep is the intentional read at least at the beginning of the movie.

How is it being hollywood romance tropes make it better, writing wise?

Post
#1654953
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Vladius said:

It’s nostalgia.

You’re basically just making up things here.

The evidence is that Jango Fett was hired to kill Padme and is also the template for the clone army, tries to kill Obi Wan, and goes directly from Kamino to the secret droid factory headquarters on Geonosis. This is brought up to Obi Wan and he very stupidly goes “no there appears to be no motive” and then Yoda says “do not assume anything,” and then they never talk about it again. The idea that a Jedi master goes out of their way to pay for a gigantic army of millions of troops and ships, in secret, for an unknown purpose, without telling anyone, and there’s no further investigation into it is just insane. If anyone in the Republic is involved at all in any capacity, which they would have to be to manage hundreds of star destroyers right away, that’s already a conspiracy. Count Dooku straight up tells them everything about Darth Sidious and they don’t even think it’s worthwhile to check. People put this up to the Jedi’s supposed “hubris” but it’s not hubris, it’s that they’re being written as morons. They don’t do the basic kind of stuff you would see in the first 20 minutes of an episode of a police procedural.

That’s not in the post I responded to. It said seeing the droid army and the clone army in the same day.

And I brought up my criticism about the connection between Dooku and Jango and the Jedi not looking into it further.

Obi-Wan saying there appears to be no motive and Yoda saying to assume nothing happens before geonosis and is about the cloners involvement in the assassination on Padme.

Manage hundreds of star destroyers right away? What does that have to do with anything? Where’s it said anyone is managing star destroyers?

The Jedi outright talk about this, that they don’t trust Dooku’s word, seeing it as a way to creating mistrust and they also agree to keep an eye on the Senate after this. Criticize that we don’t see it much, to me, yeah, but you seem to suggest that it’s not there.

Han is very masculine, Anakin isn’t. He’s being a “scoundrel” but Leia is ultimately into it. He’s getting her to more consciously recognize her latent attraction to him. Anakin starts in the friend zone, and openly lusts, whines, complains, discusses sand, commits mass murder, and then somehow at the end of it Padme is deeply in love with him. The facial expressions are just one part of it.

You basically just said nothing about the Han thing. Han openly lusts, whines, complains. Like I said before, the tuskens are after the mass bulk of the romance has happened. I can see that, but that’s not what nearly all of their romance building is about.

Post
#1654942
Topic
The Kenobi <s>Movie</s> Show (Spoilers)
Time

SomethinSomethinDarkSide said:

I honestly don’t understand how it looked as low budget as it did at times. The first fight between Obi-Wan and Vader in that quarry literally looked like a fan film. Like, how do you get Ewan McGregor back and not give this project all you’ve got? If they could do it for Andor they could have done it for this.

I don’t even think you need Andor level, but it looks fairly cheap and they burned through budget on casting real actors for the Inquisitors when they do nearly nothing. For the story, really, all that functions is the Grand Inquisitor. And then burning budget EVEN MORE on Kumail Nanjiani, whose only there to really be a plot device. How much money did all this cost, for just not doing much?

Also, while we all know that the prequels and the OT don’t line up perfectly, the events of this show take it way too far. Leia having a whole adventure with Obi-Wan as a kid is ridiculous. In ANH she only knows Obi-Wan by name and reputation. She’s really not upset at his death in ANH because she never knew him.

I think there’s a way to make this work. I thank God for the idea, if He wills, that I posted somewhere else in a redo for the Kenobi show, to keep Leia in this adventure, justify why she named her son Ben (because to suggest it fits with this I think doesn’t make sense, as she doesn’t know him as Ben), and still keep Leia from realizing she knows Obi-Wan in ANH: Have her never learn his real name in this show and only know him as Ben the entire time. You can do this fun thing where you retroactively say that when Luke comes in to rescue Leia and says he’s with Ben Kenobi, Leia’s exuberant response is her realizing her dad sent to her get the help of the man who rescued her as a child, that Ben and Obi are the same person. Her not mourning his death can make sense, to me, because she doesn’t mourn her planet’s death in that movie either, so retroactively say she’s entirely emotionally compartmentalizing and is comforting Luke about it as a way to account for it. As for ideas as well, why not instead of fake jedi guy as a helper to Obi, it’s Commander Cody? Working to try and make up his betrayal to Obi?

Post
#1654934
Topic
What do you think of The Prequel Trilogy? A general discussion.
Time

Mocata said:
There’s been a lot of talk for many years now about how the prequels are looked at more fondly thanks to nostalgia. Or how they’re better if you’ve seen things the animated shows.

I don’t agree with that in either way. I think TCW only adds a few things that I think the PT didn’t really need to tell it’s story (like the extended info about the clones, though I think the movies could’ve stood to explore their personalities more), mostly. Otherwise I think it’s genericizes Anakin’s character from a troubled tortured person to a more square jawed jockish hero type akin to Han Solo, which some acclaim over the movies portrayal. Even though I think it’s just a more generic take on Anakin’s attitude at the beginning of ROTS.

As far as nostalgia, I’ve seen adults apparently watch the PT for the first time in present day and like them. Have criticisms, yes, but still like them. I dismiss the nostalgia assumptions on that. I think that’s a recycled Plinkett claim that falls apart under much scrutiny.

Huge parts of the story still make zero sense (the Naboo trade dispute, the mystery of the clone army, the weird creepy romance). The one that’s still the most infuriating is that Obi-wan sees both the clones and the droid plant in the space of like a day, and doesn’t immediately see the conspiracy to create a war. Neither do the Jedi council, they’re all braindead.

I don’t really understand this much. Why would anyone assume that this is a conspiracy to start a war when as far as Obi or the Jedi would have any reason to think they came upon these things by happenstance? What would they see when they have no evidence to conclude it? Especially considering the droid army are just being made and the clones have been being developed for about 10 years. I think there’s room to criticize that the jedi don’t ponder this issue more, considering the connection between Dooku and Jango (though again, they have no evidence that would allow them to conclude specifically a huge amount of stuff there, but I think it’s a flaw that they don’t engage with it), but concluding it must be a conspiracy based on seeing armies I think is a stretch in a way.

I think the romance is weird in a way, but not creepy really. I think this is more a read on Anakin’s facial expressions than anything. I’m a little perplexed. I think Han’s attitude towards Leia is more creepy to me in TESB, and Han’s attitude more childish in how he very pettily reacts to Leia not expressing herself when they have no romantic relationship at that point. Unless the Anakin killing the tuskens is what’s just be referred to here, which, I think has a fair argument, but the bulk of their romance happens before that. And while I think their romance is fairly flawed, I don’t see zero sense.

I also don’t get the Naboo thing not making sense.

Post
#1654929
Topic
Anakin/Vader and mortality
Time

Vladius said:

G&G-Fan said:

Channel72 said:

NFBisms said:

Grand Admiral Thrawn said:

PLEASE, you, and EVERYONE, if you haven’t already, embrace, love and worship the One True Only God YHWH Jehovah, Only One Jesus Christ His Only Begotten Son and Lord and Savior of our souls and the Only One Holy Spirit. God is good. God is love. Jesus is Lord! Jesus IS coming. Your soul depends on it!

I have seen God act in my life. He saved my soul, changed my heart, changed my mind, helped people through me, took care of people in my life, people I hurt before I found God. God is the only reason I was able to reconcile with my dad before he died.

God worked through Jesus Christ to save our souls. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. Be baptized in The Holy Spirit, and if He wills, water as well. Repent of your sins, accept God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit into your heart, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, that all who believe on Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father Jehovah God but through Him.

Not long after I got saved I prayed to God for help understanding the Holy Bible, and that same day someone knocked on my door asking me if I wanted to understand the Bible. I have had times where I was thinking about Holy Bible quotes and have stumbled across them flipping through The Holy Bible at random the same/next day and prayed to God for His joy to grant me comfort in hard times and felt it blessed upon me, and God’s blessings of peace that have taken away a lot of my anger. God is here for you if you let Him guide you.

The Holy Bible says, “love thy enemy”, “turn the other cheek”, “If your enemy is hungry, feed him”, “if he is thirsty, give him a drink”, “pray for those who persecute you”, “do not repay evil for evil”.

LORD willing, all humans may commit sin of almost every kind (gay, straight), and that’s wrong, and all humans sin, as God tells us through the The Holy Bible, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” The Holy Bible also says, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”, “Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.” and, “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."