Connor MacLeod

The one thing I absolutely loathe the most about the onslaught of prequel revisionism is that it’s all in spite of the sequel trilogy which I find to be entirely hypocritical. They say “The sequels had awful world building,” while turning a blind eye to the dozens upon dozens of idiotic artistic choices Lucas made in the prequels that were either insanely contrived or outright contradictory to the original trilogy. They say the sequels have bad world building but Anakin building c3po, knowing R2 is fine. Kenobi knowing R2 and C3po is fine. Qui gong’s existence, contradicting what Kenobi recollects in ROTJ is fine, Yoda knowing R2 is fine, explaining how force ghost exists in the most haphazard way is fine. Midichlorians are fine. And the list goes on and on. All these idiotic narrative choices ruin the suspension of disbelief, which to me is awful world building because it makes it feel like a silly cartoon.

Also the whole “the sequels suck because they made it up as they went along, there was no plan!” complaint is more hypocrisy LOL. Yes, it was made up… just like the original and prequel trilogies! Look at all the ridiculous retcons from the prequels! Look at Leia being Luke’s sister! It’s arguably just as jarring as the subversions in LJ or Rey now being a palpatine in ROS. “Making it up as we go along” and retconning is a Star Wars tradition!

But the thing i find most insufferable is how prequel fans have been calling these films “masterpieces,” which is just pure insanity. It is fine to like these movies in a schlock popcorn movie sort of way. I like schlock. I like Transformers 1 and 2. I like the Underworld films. But I will never pretend that they are masterpieces. That’s just ridiculous. I don’t think these clowns even understand the implications of calling the prequels masterpieces. A masterpiece is like Lawrence of Arabia, Ben Hur, Blade Runner, The Good Bad and Ugly. I deal with this by trying to explain the absolute pitfalls in film making that the prequels are guilty of. I try to educate. Especially on the complete lack of blocking, staging, business for actors, and mediocre camera set ups in the prequels. But 99% of the time it’s like talking to an ignorant child that refuses to listen. So I just let them make fools of themselves with a warning: “I advise not to call these films masterpieces out loud in front of serious film buffs. You likely will get laughed out the room or be highly thought of as a fool in the minds of everyone and avoided.” Again, I have no problem with people liking the movies. I enjoy ROTS in a summer popcorn blockbuster movie sort of way. But in no way would I consider it high art.

DarthSmaul said:

Connor MacLeod said:

The irony to me is that Lucas always wants to fix the original trilogy but thinks the prequels are perfect. 😂 hahaha! Lucas, please “fix” Attack of the Clones! The CGI and cinematography are absolutely dreadful and it looks ridiculously fake. If you’re going to fix anything fix the prequels! I swear Lucas lost his mind sometime around the mid 90’s, possibly after Jurassic Park came out.

Technically he did “fix” the prequels like 4 times (2001, 2004, 2011, 2012/19). There’s also some minor fixes between the digital and 35mm versions of AOTC which premiered the same year, similar to the 35mm/70mm versions of ESB.

I am aware he made changes but he didn’t “fix” anything for me with AOTC, except maybe adding the voice of Anakins mom screaming during his dream. What a technically dreadful film, never mind the acting and story, this movie looks horrendous. The CGI backgrounds for many scenes should be redone and the color timing especially. TPM has a better Yoda but Lucas added 3 more boring minutes which makes the theatrical superior in my opinion

I think the folks at Red Letter Media are comedic geniuses and absolutely hilarious.

However, as far as real film criticism goes these guys are incredibly inconsistent to the point where I dismiss the intended “true criticisms” as nonsense and can’t take them seriously whatsoever. For instance, they hate Rogue One but loved Force Awakens which is just baffling to me. They hate the prequels but loved The Acolyte and liked Kenobi (another absurdity).

And even outside of Star Wars I find some of their opinions to be ridiculous. I remember reading on their Facebook page that they thought the original Alien was boring. That’s when I completely dismissed that channel as far as film criticism goes. RLM are just a bunch of clowns to me, so i will oblige them and laugh. I view these guys as comedians and don’t take their criticism seriously whatsoever. Sometimes I think these guys don’t even know what they like and just try to be contrarian on purpose for laughs and to be controversial. I absolutely love their Nerd Crew videos. And all the people that think their humor has “aged poorly” or is “sexism” are why comedy is dead today. None of you would be saying that if the genders were reversed and they were women making fun of male stereotypes. Instead it would be “empowering.”

Dagenspear said:

Connor MacLeod said:

But 7 and 8 absolutely destroy 1 and 2. And 8 has a handful of moments that feel very original trilogy to me. However Episode 9 is an honorary prequel and awful. A total train wreck on par with episode 2.

How does does “feel” like something? How does that make that movie better?

Considering I think 7 and 8 have little to no story, character weight overall or narrative point, then I don’t think they are better constructed in that way.

Jar Jar and Anakin and Padme in Episode 2 are far more insufferable that Holdo and Rose. Rose and Holdo are not good characters because they are boring and logistically Holdo’s story is absurd but at least they are bearable as far as being able to sit through the scenes without cringing.

Reylo alone I think is worse written than any character or relationship dynamic in the PT. That the ST, to me, couldn’t even clear the low bar that is Anakin and Padme’s romance in relationship building I find to be hilarious.

I find it hilarious how hypocritical prequel fans are with their criticism of these films. Such as “they made it up as they went along and they had no plan!” LOL Just like George Lucas with Return of the Jedi and that ridiculously contrived nonsense involving Leia being Lukes sister. And also the whole world building criticism. LOL As if making Anakin C-3PO’s creator and R2 knowing everyone and contradicting the OT with retconning nonsense like Qui gong discovering Anakin is good world building. Good world building is new droids (bb8) and new aliens. But most importantly 7 and 8 don’t ruin Vader!

Did you cite a plot point in ROTJ and try to compare it to an entire story and character and structure just happening at random per movie?

But I feel like this is a strawman argument as well, as if it not being planned out is the only criticism of these movies. Among also the idea I think, to me, seeming to use a single dude with a couple friends on a type writer or whatever in the 70’s/80’s, to excuse the lackings of a modern times multi-billion dollar corporation.

And then you compare connecting characters and inventing new ones as worldbuilding issues, as if that’s comparable to the vacant hole of any story and world within the ST? Do you think that the PT having flawed, if not very flawed, writing issues is even remotely the same for everyone with the criticisms about the ST?

So, you agree that the PT had better worldbuilding? As it had new droids, new worlds (new looking worlds), new stories, new villains (not just rip offs of the OT villains), new weapons and new aliens. Far more than the ST had I think.

No, the ST, to those that think this, just ruined Luke and Han and gave Leia nothing to do and ran the entire family into the ground with Han and Leia’s awful son Kylo, undoing their victory over the empire by making a new empire come in and destroy the new republic and take over the entire galaxy in about a week or whatever. But making Vader, a genocidal dictatorial madman, whatever you see as ruining him, is the problem?

It as also great to have movies that were character driven and actually had drama. Episode 1 had no drama at all and Episode 2 barely. They felt like wookiepedia articles. In 7 and 8 we have some great scenes with character moments and acting. Episode 3 was the only prequel with real drama

Like I said above, referring to anything that involved Kylo in any of these movies, Luke in them, or reylo specifically in TLJ/Rey’s writing in that movie as character based, I think especially Kylo is an empty black hole of a character (Dooku in his minor screentime I think has more charisma, pathos, motivation and goals and impact than Kylo does in his entire trilogy, where I think he has no value, nor connection of any meaning to any of the new main characters/narrative, rendering him meaningless as a character and a story point), and reylo, to me, is worse done than Anakin/Padme. Even the one thing Kylo actually does in these movies that have any real narrative weight, killing Snoke, I think has no value because Kylo is an empty character and basically has nothing that meaningfully, to me, distinctiveness him from Snoke, beyond Snoke having more screen presence.

Padme, Anakin, Shmi, Qui-Gon’s struggle with the council, the drama in the Senate… how was there no drama in episode 1?

For episode 2, Anakin and Obi’s issues, Anakin and Padme’s drama, Anakin’s feelings about his mother and her death, the manipulation of the Senate.

And let’s not forgot all the nonsense about Rey being over powered. Luke destroyed the deathstar on his first official mission, knew how to use force telekinesis with no real training, take out an AT AT with a lightsaber with no real training (outside of that 1 scene with the ball in original sw) etc. so Rey being able to know how to use force suggestion after mind reading Kylo is not far fetched nor is her nearly defeating an injured Kylo and flying the falcon impeccably. She also got her ass knocked out by Kylo slamming her into a tree. I will concede in 9 she is a total Mary sure and ridiculously overpowered

Luke fired a weapon and pulled something to him, with only a little training from Obi. How is cutting a stationary object a showcase of any measure of skill in force use though? You’re gonna compare that to Rey using telekenis, doing a mind trick and such, without any training that we see, as well as beating a, as far as we see, far more trained dark sider (Kylo was down) when Rey was injured as well after having been thrown into a tree, which you admit (if Kylo being injured suggests a caveat to her victory, then why doesn’t her being knocked out add a conflicting narrative with said victory)? I don’t think anywhere in any of the movies do they ever develop that Rey got her skills from reading Kylo’s mind, even if that weren’t also, to me, such an easy, hand wave excuse to not have to train her at all.

Of course you claim that about 9, when that’s the only movie where she’s actually had any training.

Yawn. I’m not reading your nonsense. I’m not here to debate. I like what I like. You like what you like.

The irony to me is that Lucas always wants to fix the original trilogy but thinks the prequels are perfect. 😂 hahaha! Lucas, please “fix” Attack of the Clones! The CGI and cinematography are absolutely dreadful and it looks ridiculously fake. If you’re going to fix anything fix the prequels! I swear Lucas lost his mind sometime around the mid 90’s, possibly after Jurassic Park came out.

What do I think of the sequel trilogy?

I think Episodes 7 and 8 are well crafted films and tell a decent story about a girl who accepts herself (Rey), a lost soul who ultimately ends up being his own undoing (Kylo) and is the final act in the King Arthur mythology (Luke vs Kylo = Arthur vs Mordred) and have a good message about how the real essence of the Jedi and force is non violence (Luke sacrifice and defeat of Kylo without striking a single blow). The Last Jedi has one of my favorite quotes “To say that if the Jedi die that the light dies is vanity…”

It was both jarring and refreshing to see competent modern film making in Star Wars after the prequel trilogy. However I think Revenge of the Sith is better than all the sequels simply because of the character focus on Kenobi and Anakin which is without a doubt extremely interesting. But 7 and 8 absolutely destroy 1 and 2. And 8 has a handful of moments that feel very original trilogy to me. However Episode 9 is an honorary prequel and awful. A total train wreck on par with episode 2.

Jar Jar and Anakin and Padme in Episode 2 are far more insufferable that Holdo and Rose. Rose and Holdo are not good characters because they are boring and logistically Holdo’s story is absurd but at least they are bearable as far as being able to sit through the scenes without cringing.

I think Episode 8 is a good “ending” and I like to think Leia and force ghost Luke teach Rey and Finn how to be Jedi and Kylo destroys himself because of his guilt for killing his father. The conflict ends in a stale mate with both sides barely existing.

I find it hilarious how hypocritical prequel fans are with their criticism of these films. Such as “they made it up as they went along and they had no plan!” LOL Just like George Lucas with Return of the Jedi and that ridiculously contrived nonsense involving Leia being Lukes sister. And also the whole world building criticism. LOL As if making Anakin C-3PO’s creator and R2 knowing everyone and contradicting the OT with retconning nonsense like Qui gong discovering Anakin is good world building. Good world building is new droids (bb8) and new aliens. But most importantly 7 and 8 don’t ruin Vader!

It as also great to have movies that were character driven and actually had drama. Episode 1 had no drama at all and Episode 2 barely. They felt like wookiepedia articles. In 7 and 8 we have some great scenes with character moments and acting. Episode 3 was the only prequel with real drama

And let’s not forgot all the nonsense about Rey being over powered. Luke destroyed the deathstar on his first official mission, knew how to use force telekinesis with no real training, take out an AT AT with a lightsaber with no real training (outside of that 1 scene with the ball in original sw) etc. so Rey being able to know how to use force suggestion after mind reading Kylo is not far fetched nor is her nearly defeating an injured Kylo and flying the falcon impeccably. She also got her ass knocked out by Kylo slamming her into a tree. I will concede in 9 she is a total Mary sure and ridiculously overpowered

Is it as good as some of the EU material? NO WAY. But it has its moments and I can enjoy them as “what if” stories.

Disney Star Wars is an objective failure, it can be measured and quantified: 2 box office bombs (Solo, Mando & Groku) and no toy line for Episode 9. These 3 things illustrate that Star Wars is no longer special within the zeitgeist. If you had told me 15 years ago that Star Wars would have box office bombs and that there wouldn’t be a toy line for the last episode in the Skywalker Saga,I would’ve laughed in your face, but here we are. Regardless of how you feel about the prequel era; things still felt special. Disney is over saturated assembly line movie making and television production. Rogue One and the early Mando stuff was great but NO, I wish Lucas never sold to Disney. It will never have that special feeling ever again.

But that would go against the long tradition of Lucasfilm forcing you to double dip and buy the same content three or four times! For example, if you want all the bonus content for the OT you have to pick up the 2004 DVD box set for that bonus disc, then pick up the 2011 Complete Saga box set for the deleted scenes disc and documentaries disc, then the 2020 Disney 4K releases of each film for the new bonus content, etc. etc. Not to mention the From Star Wars to Jedi documentary that is stuck on VHS

Anakin Starkiller said:

Inspired by this article. Relevant but far more radical video.

So here’s the situation: Lucasfilm has reached to you after being thoroughly impressed by the career film directing you definitely had. Their request? Remake all nine episodes of Star Wars.

Now of course that sounds insane. Blasphemy, surely! And yeah, to an extent, remakes would be redundant. The films have problems, but remaking them might be overkill…or would it be? You decide.

Anyway, you have to chance to take films made by three vastly different teams with different levels of technology where the only consistent part of the story is how much they’re making up as they go along. Thus, a version that’s all planned from the start could look very different.

I’m sure Palpatine wouldn’t appear to be killed in RotJ, and we’d probably only have one Death Star. The OT as a whole would obviously look much more modern. The aesthetic of the Galaxy would probably more consistent, with each trilogy seeming equally different as opposed to the ST being a spitshined OT while the PT does its own thing. Of course, I’d cut Leia being Luke’s sister, but I realize that’s a hot take. Cutting Rey being Palpatine, though, is not.

My reaction: this would be the worse creative decision in the history of filmmaking

I disagree with all these “suggestions.” Those will also fail to bring audiences in like in the Lucas era. Again, what made Star Wars special was INNOVATION. Lucas pushed for it. Relentlessly. None of these fools at Lucasfilm have the courage or imagination to push for innovation, both imaginatively and technologically. Plus no one has a story to tell. It’s mostly just play it safe rubbish.

A sadly overlooked filmmaker and the “other Lucas” that was instrumental to making the OT that deserves more recognition. RIP

Star Wars A+
Empire Strikes Back A+
Return of the Jedi B+
Revenge of the Sith B-
Phantom Menace C
Attack of the Clones F

Thank God it wasn’t 4 hours. Hilarious that fans think this extra footage could possibly be more character development when it’s likely just more gratuitous action scenes and garbage exemplifying Lucas’ self indulgence

Tobar said:

I think Tartakovsky’s mini-series is the perfect 2.5. It covers the start of the war, Anakin’s knighthood, his struggle with the darkside and leads directly into ROTS.

You took the words out my mouth.

JadedSkywalker said:

I almost wanted to see it when I heard Phil Tipett was involved. Favreau is a talented guy at what he does. Filoni is the one who seems out of his depth. directing cartoons is not the same thing as production of live action. And he really hasn’t directed a movie yet except for the Clone Wars animated. Filoni plans for the future of SW seems to be stay the course. They have no concrete plans.

Mandoverse wore its welcome out years ago. And how much Ahsoka and Filoniverse can people stomach. Well you’ll get another season of that at least.

Starfighter seems to be the only silver lining of any future project. Since they aren’t going to do anymore Star Wars Visions beyond the 9th Jedi spinoff. It will be all Filoni Star Wars all the time unless the Kinberg trilogy or that Rey movie happens.

A Filoni Heir to the Empire movie would have been positively received years ago. Star Wars interest is at an ebb going into 2027 a banner year for the franchise if there ever was one in recent memory.

The Original Star Wars remaster that at least is real Star Wars. and maybe Starfighter and Ahsoka will be good, or at least worthy of a smile and a chuckle. Not conquering the world of cinema like Star Wars used to do. fine make stuff people like and they will return.

There is no redoing the Disney trilogy or reversing the sentiment either own it or don’t. Or are they just going to continue tiptoe around it with nostalgia pieces and deepfake here and there, jumping around the timeline. It’s kind of pathetic. Make episodes 10 11 and 12.

The Han Solo movie wasn’t good but was better than most of the Disney plus shows, what does that say about this franchise. from movie juggernaut to middling streaming tv. If not for Andor I’d say Star Wars on tv was a net negative. if you remove all the cartoon shows people love to various degrees. Trying to Marvelize SW was the biggest mistake. biggest failure of all is their all one canon. comics, novels, games. films, tv. they retcon at will. they have no consistent plan or continuity. The story group why does that even exist? If directors can do whatever they please.

THIS.

Honestly I got nothing against this film but I likely will never see this movie, simply Because I don’t care anymore. Book of Boba Fett ruined the Mandalorian series for me. Season two had a beautiful ending. Never saw season 3. Never will. It’s sad. I was that guy who used to be so excited for Star Wars now I have nothing but apathy. For me this franchise is done. It died when Luke died in Last Jedi. He was the heart and soul. Any good stuff like Andor is only going to compliment the main course which is Lucas’ films. And I say that as someone who is critical of the prequels. But even the prequels were interesting and had some magical novel ideas despite many being executed poorly. Disney SW biggest crime is that it’s boring. I miss Lucas’ imagination, the unique designs he approves and encourages of his crew and his action sequences. I really miss his action sequences. Also that creative push to do something that has never been done before was integral and now it’s gone

I say Star Wars 1977 or The Original Star Wars. Rarely do I say A New Hope, a title I never cared for honestly

I heard in the original theatrical version that the noooooooooo that Vader says is way longer. I would like to see that. Does anyone have a link?

“Somehow Palpatine returned” never bothered me because they literally say right after that “dark science, cloning… secrets only the Sith knew” which literally means that Palpatine is a clone. I honestly don’t know what the big deal is. and no, I don’t like this movie.

I have a love/hate relationship with PM. I love Qui Gong, Duel of Fates, Maul, Pod Race, Queen Amidala and even the politics but I absolutely hate how you have to be 2 years old to be a Jedi (more than Jar Jar, who is awful of course). And the unnecessary exposition drags the film down. Do we really need to be introduced to all the pod racers? Do we really need to see the ships landing every where and taking up minutes of screen Time? do we really need to see aliens selling popcorn in the stands during the Pod race? And the staging and blocking was nonexistent, which made the film lack energy and rhythm at times. And the jar jar gags were too much. The retconning of Qui Gong, not Kenobi, finding Anakin is total nonsense. Same with Anakin building c3p0. And R2 knowing everyone literally

AOTC is completely awful. The only good thing was Christopher Lee as Dooku and Jango. Watching Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman as the “heroes” was like watching Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez in a cheap Disney Channel sci fi movie. Barf! And I hate how the Jedi are depicted in this film entirely. And the digital compositing and CGI were just awful in some scenes. It’s easily in My top five worst looking films I’ve ever seen. Maybe even top three. I can’t believe Lucas will go back and tamper and “fix” the original trilogy, but looks at the Jedi temple scene with mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi walking and think that looks OK. if anything needs fixing it scenes like this in attack of the clones.smh

Revenge of the Sith is a decent film with emotion. It’s the only film in the trilogy with actual drama.I enjoyed the tone of the movie and the rhythm and pacing, even though Anakin turn feels rushed but I don’t expect Star Wars to give me epic character development like the Godfather. I thought Hayden Christensen‘s acting was decent given what he had to work with. Ian was also great as the emperor . However, some of the CGI is aging badly and will continue to do so every year that passes by. the fight between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin on Mustafar gets more and more absurd because it’s over the top and self indulgent and looks awful in some places, namely, when the facility collapses they’re doing the swinging and hover board thing. Also grievous versus Obi-Wan Kenobi does nothing for me. It’s just McGregor swinging a Lightsaber at a green screen. Nevertheless, I love seeing Anakin get his limbs chopped off and burn to a crisp. As a kid, I always fantasized about how that would be, and when I finally saw it on the big screen, it was amazing.

Yes. clone wars multimedia project > clone wars CGI cartoon, easily.

JadedSkywalker said:

Darth Maul Shadow Hunter. I read that novel. Michael Reaves. That and the comic book Darth Maul that came out back then I did enjoy. the comic was in 2000, the novel in 2001. Comic was written by Ron Marz. Artist was Jan Duursema.

Yup. That was a good one. Disney dropped a great Darth Maul prequel comic where he has to team up with Aura Sing and Bane and kill a Jedi. It was great and I rarely read Disney canon stuff

I agree Dark Horse is the best. The Aliens comics were mind blowing. I know you’re not a big fan of the prequels but those Republic/Clone Wars comics are the best version of Lucas’ clone wars hands down. Way better than the movies and tv shows

Dagenspear said:

Why does it matter to you even if they were sexless? What’s wrong with that?

LOL!😂 If you can’t see what is wrong with that I got nothing to say to you bro

I like the ROTJ SE 97 ending because it had the new celebration with Shaw as Anakin, not Hayden. Now this version is stuck on laserdisc, lost to time. Sad.

At the end of the day, for me, both these trilogies kind of measure up the same. Each trilogy only really has one decent or somewhat competent movie. Revenge of the Sith for the prequels and TLJ for the sequels.