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What did the Prequel Trilogy need? — Page 8

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No, the clonetroopers were CG and rubbery.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: auximenies

The Millennium Falcon had more of a personality than anyone in the PT. With each film, we learned about the ship's strengths and weaknesses, we found out who loved it and to what degree, we saw it frustrating those who loved it. It was crucial to the Battle of Yavin, pivotal to the rescue of Luke in ESB, and was once again heroic in the destruction of the ROTJ Death Star.

Nothing in the PT came close to this.

I agree.

The MF was a souped-up hot-rod, that reminded us of a car- and Han Solo reminded us of a guy who would drive a car like that, always boasting (and sometimes exaggerating) about what it could do.

We grew to love it like Han did- who didn't wince when it's dish got clipped off in ROTJ?!


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Originally posted by: Mielr
We grew to love it like Han did- who didn't wince when it's dish got clipped off in ROTJ?!


That was definitely a big-time wince moment.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Exactly. I think the point I was trying to make was that none of the vehicles in the PT had a real relationship with their owners. Not like the Rebel fighters or the MF or the TIEs. Its not so much the dirt as the feeling that they have been used and adjusted over time, reflecting the use that their owners have put them to. There was no evidence of this in the PT, I don't think. Therefore the vehicles that we see make much less impact upon us.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I've taken on board the discussions on the 'Obi-Wan's name' thread. It seems to me that the connection to the samurai and other such traditions, with regards to taking new, significant names when a new level of training or status is achieved, is an excellent quality to integrate into the Jedi Order and, possibly, the Dark Lords of the Sith too.

This would allow for Ben to be Kenobi's birth name and 'Obi-Wan' to be the name he took when he became a Jedi Knight. When he reteats to Tatooine, with the infant Luke, he reverts to his birth name of Ben Kenobi. This is not a clever subterfuge to avoid discovery. It is sufficient that he came to a world so unimportant, in galactic terms. I feel that it is clear, from Vader's line: "I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan", that the Sith felt that the Jedi were no longer able to oppose them, having been decimated and scattered by the purges. They did not feel the need to obsessively pursue every last member of the order. They knew, as the remaining Jedi would have known, that if any of them showed themselves, the Sith and the Empire would come down upon them swiftly.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I've been thinking about Ben and Anakin's training sessions. I like the idea of them getting away from the wars and deciding that the wastes of Tatooine are an ideal place for it. Somewhere isolated where they will not be disturbed. So, Anakin takes Ben to the Lars homestead, from which they will set out. This would be how Owen and Beru meet Ben before bringing Luke to them.

I'm starting to think that, although Anakin and Padme should be the same age, Ben has to be older. He is about the age of a grandfather in ANH, not a father. If Padme, Anakin and Ben are the same age, then Padme would have been in her fifties when she had Luke.

In this case, I think Anakin and Padme have to be approximately thirty years old when Padme has Luke (and his sister), while Ben would be about fifty.

I imagine Ben meeting Anakin when they are about thirty and twenty respectively, thereby allowing time for a friendship to grow between them.

Any thoughts?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Obi-Wan and Anakin going off to Tatooine, eh? Interesting. What about an encounter with a Krayt Dragon?

About their ages, I agree about making Obi-Wan older than Anakin and Padme. Vader would be their age as well, setting up a triangle between those three characters (as opposed to the more obvious route of Anakin-Padme-ObiWan). That all depends on how you want to tackle the non-Anakin Vader being Luke's father, the most intriguing aspect of this project IMO.
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Absolutely. Although I haven't got to the stage of integrating Vader into the story yet.

I'm thinking about starting Episode I after Anakin has become a Jedi Knight. I like the idea of meeting Anakin and Ben when they're already comrades-in-arms and close friends. I feel that it's this stage of their relationship that was most lacking in the depiction in the PT. I'm working out their backstories so that it can be brought up as and when appropriate, really.

What do you think, people?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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So you're suggesting a similar set-up to the scene Bootfit posted? I like that approach, as long as you can work in the necessary backstories (which you've already said is on your mind). It's more effective sometimes to just present something the way you want it to be rather than setting up things to get to that point eventually. In the latter the execution may not be able convey things properly, while if you start out with "this is the way it is," it's more readily accepted.
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Agreed, Commander!

It seems to me that, much like the OOT, the episodes of the saga should all be snapshots of a much bigger story. The opening crawl gets us up to speed with where we are in the overall story and everything else is picked up from the characters as we go. I feel that the expository dialogue in the PT was clumsy and unnatural, something that, for example, Ben's dialogue with Luke in Ben's hut on Tatooine, does not suffer from.

Having a gap of 20 years between episodes 3 and 4 and episodes 6 and 7 and then 3 years between the others at least gives some basic structure to consider when 'mapping' the plot. This may not be exactly how it works out, but it is useful when working out ages of characters, how long things have taken, etc.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Now then, taking up the discussion about 'force ghosts'.

I like to imagine the secret of becoming one with the Force as being one of the ultimate secrets of the Jedi order. This is why it is not known to the Sith Lords. Further, I think that the Jedi Masters would only pass the secret on to the most worthy of Jedi Knights. This is not even known to most Jedi Knights and is certainly completely unknown by the apprentices and those outside of the order.

This is why Vader has no knowledge of the power that Ben is talking about in their duel in ANH.

I completely reject the idea that this secret was only discovered by Qui-Gon Jinn after 1000 generations of Jedi had gone before him. I think that this secret has long been held by the order as its most closely guarded and powerful secret. It means that Jedi live on and communicate with the Jedi still in our world, giving them a far greater connection to the force and their history than any others in the galaxy.

The onslaught of the Sith during the times of the Clone Wars decimated the Jedi. Not just Knights but also apprentices and even Masters. Most of these Jedi died without ever knowing the great secret of becoming one with the Force. The Jedi order was scattered throughout the galaxy.

I imagine Ben's last action, after handing Luke to Owen & Beru Lars and before retreating to the Jundland wastes, was to visit Master Yoda on Dagobah. Ben is now one of the last Jedi and is made a Master, is taught the secret and given the task of watching over Luke and to start training him as a Jedi as soon as possible. This plan is scuppered by Owen's opposition and then by Ben's death at Vader's hands. After this, Ben tells Luke to go to Dagobah so that Yoda can train Luke himself.

I therefore must come to the conclusion that Anakin and Vader will not appear as spirits at any point. Ben and Yoda will and it also gives the opportunity of meeting other Jedi long gone. This would probably be explored during the final episodes, as Luke grows in strength and skill.

Any thoughts?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Your reasoning for the force spirits sounds good to me. I like the "ultimate secret" aspect of it. Perhaps having Anakin appear at some point could be explored, but other than that it seems you've nailed the concept. I would imagine Yoda would inform Obi-Wan of the immortality technique before he goes off to Tatooine though, as once he takes Luke there he's there for good until ANH.

Also, I see you have decided on the trilogy-of-trilogies structure. An excellent choice. I also see you've had some thoughts on the timespan of the saga. When I was plotting out the trilogies I had a dilemma with the time in between episodes 6 and 7. I'd decided on a two-year gap, granting my Episode 6 was ESB, as I didn't want Han to stay frozen in Carbonite for too long a time. I don't know what your thoughts on this are exactly, but don't you think another 20 year gap is a bit long? I mean, between 3 and 4 it makes sense due to the Jedi having to go into hiding, waiting for the twins to come of age, but what would happen in that second 20 year hiatus?

CRAZY IDEA: As I was typing this up, the thought occured to me. There are many stories about people being frozen and revived in their future. What if this scenario played out for Solo, being dethawed 20 years in his future? This would be a great way to bring the audience up to speed on the events of the last two decades, using Han as the excuse for expositional dialogue explaining what's happened since episode 6. Also, this would serve as a way to have Leia grow out of Han and into Luke. Abstract ideas I know, but it's a start. What do you think?
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I do like those ideas. Han would also now be 20 years younger than his friends at the start of episode VII, which would cause no end of frustration and conflict.

As far as the 20 year gap goes, I'm thinking in those terms because I'm thinking I'll use the idea of the Emperor not being defeated until episode IX. However, I'm toying with the idea of Vader still being defeated in episode VI. This has been inspired by considerations of the 'universe-shrinking' many members have been complaining about. I think the cause of this is less the discovery of relationships between the characters and more the fact that the focus of the saga has been narrowed to the story of one person, Anakin Skywalker. SW '77 does not have this narrow view. It is a snapshot from the story of the rebellion against the Empire and the story is not restricted to any one of the people we meet. It is the story of all the characters.

I think this is another reason why Luca$h's PT is less satisfying, that it has been reduced to the story of Anakin Skywalker, that he is "The One" and that everyone else is a supporting character in his story.

This is why the use of the droids appeals to me so much. They are ageless and are the perfect characters to take us through 60 years of history. They provide a constancy against which the transience of the organic lives around them can be highlighted. Their memories are manipulated, which prevents them from becoming too god-like in their knowledge of the overall story. They are thrust into situations in the same way as the audience, which means that we find out things and meet characters as they do.

The time scale I've mentioned is not set in stone, by the way. It's merely a tool to work towards a structure for the saga.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Wow auralofflewaffle, you were right... this IS my kind of discussion!

Anyway, I've already posted my own prequel trilogy ideas in another topic. Since I think this topic's gonna outlast mine, I hope no one minds if I cut n' paste my prequel ideas:

1. The Empire. As I said in the aforementioned topic, in my prequels it would already exist. There would be no "origin of the empire" story (mostly because I thought about it, and realized the one given in the A New Hope novelization works as good as anything).

2. Darth Vader would be in all the prequels. BUT! The Vader in the first two would NOT be Anakin, but rather would be a human who has been turned into a cyborg, made from a highly-skilled bounty huntress (yes, a female Darth Vader). This Vader would be destroyed by the Jedi, only to be replaced in the third movie by an even more advanced Darth Vader who horrifies everyone because he fights like a Jedi and has control over the force! By the end of the movie, Obi-Wan would have figured out who this new Vader is, though he would not explicitly state as much. Which brings me to...

3. Anakin: Instead of a love-story/manipulation plot, Anakin Skywalker would simply be a pupil of Obi-Wan's who ignores the "peace/self defense" side of the Force and falls in love totally with the power aspect of it. In the second movie, Anakin would attempt to single-handedly take on the empire, having delusions of godhood. He'd put up an impressive show--even making Star Destroyers implode (after all, he DOES say "the power to destroy a planet is insignifigant next to the power of the Force") but a more powerful force from an unseen entity would fell him. Then, a voice would be heard commanding an imperial troop to bring him to the Emperor's ship.

4. Recurring characters from the OT: Only Obi-Wan, Anakin/Darth Vader, and maybe R2D2 and C-3PO would reappear. Other OT characters who would realistically exist at this time would never be seen (especially Yoda--remember, his first appearance was supposed to be a surprise too!) and the rest of the cast would be entirely new characters (also, absolutely NONE of them would be holdovers from George Lucas' prequels--no Quigon, no Jar-Jar, no Padme, etc.) My idea of a (sub)plot for the third movie would involve Obi-Wan trying to find a foster home for baby Luke, so he might reappear as well (albeit as a toddler).


Now, I've also had some ideas for a Sequel Trilogy.

The main thrust of it would be that, of course the Rebels won, the Empire is crumbling, the Old Republic is being restored, yada yada.

However the peace is upset by the arrival of these dark beings--nebulous shapeshifters that seem to come from the darkness of space itself. Soon these begin attacking Republic planets and destroying things. What's more is that it seems like they're led by yet another Darth Vader--one with no face (the helmet is just on a smooth ball) and who obviously isn't Anakin (since Anakin has seen the light and all.

It eventually turns out these dark beings are in fact made up of the Dark Side of the Force, and that the new, faceless vader is in fact the former Emperor. "But wait! He's dead!" says the heroes, but it turns out the Emperor (since I'm totally disregarding anything that wasn't specifically stated in the O-OT, I'm not sure I'll keep the "Palpatine" and "Darth Sidious" names) had actually developed the empire, started the war, etc. specifically to keep the forces of Good in the universe busy while he conducts experiments in immortality, and that by the time ROTJ came around he had managed to build a machine--with the guidance of the Force--that would contain his soul (this is the REAL reason he wanted Luke to kill him!), thus the new Darth Vader suit. Eventually the former Emperor becomes so powerful that he can continue living even without the machine.

As for the OT characters: Luke would be training Leia, Han would begin carrying a Lightsaber but probably not become a Jedi (I see no reason Lightsabers should belong only to Jedi), and just for kicks, maybe C-3PO grows a backbone and does some Jedi training so that he can be a better bodyguard for Leia (as well as her personal interpreter!)

And that's as far as I've gotten with that idea. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
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Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?


A bit comic-book-ish.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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I love the way you're thinking outside the box, JamesEightBitStar! Your ideas on the character of Darth Vader and now the Emperor and his dark side minions are genuinely unique! Keep going, dude!

The only thing I will comment on is the idea of Threepio using the Force. My take on it is that only organic beings can use the Force as only living things can become sensitive to it. I would have a tough time expanding that to allow for droids to be trained to use the Force. Of course, if you have a more expansive view of the Force then fair enough. If so, could you give us an idea of how you think of the Force?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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The idea of C-3PO becoming a Jedi was a bit of whimsy on my part. But personally I see little reason a droid--particularly one who is obviously sentient and able to learn--should be restricted from the force.

After all, Darth Vader/Anakin was mostly mechanical and his son acquired a mechanical hand and never once was it stated that these things had any effect on their ability to use the force.
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Before Luca$h's PT, my ideas about the Clone Wars were very different. I'm starting to think it would be good to revive them.

The OOT never gave me the impression that the Stormtroopers were clones. They were just soldiers in armour. My concept of the Clone Wars was that clones of people were created and used as spies and assassins and to spread lies, causing confusion and paranoia. Not thousands and thousands of troops but a smaller flood of clones which caused everyone to start distrusting the person next to them, leading to a disintegration of trust.

This idea can be used as the way the Emperor attacks the Republic from within. With distrust everywhere, the Senate blindly accept his offer of strong leadership and, once elected President (to use the position initially held by him in the prologue of ADF's novelisation of SW '77), he starts to demolish the Republic and erect the Empire one motion at a time.

The Jedi, through their sensitivity to the Force, can sense the clones and tell them apart from the person they have been cloned from. They start to defend the Republic from the clones. Palpatine counters this with a series of "outrages" perpetrated by clones of Jedi and contrives to have the Senate agree to allowing the Lords of the Sith deal with the Jedi "threat". Soon, he is openly declaring the Jedi as being the originators of the clones and that the Jedi were plotting to seize control of the Republic. The Sith begin the systematic "cleansing" of the Jedi Order from the galaxy.

Some initial ideas - any thoughts?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: JamesEightBitStar
The idea of C-3PO becoming a Jedi was a bit of whimsy on my part. But personally I see little reason a droid--particularly one who is obviously sentient and able to learn--should be restricted from the force.
After all, Darth Vader/Anakin was mostly mechanical and his son acquired a mechanical hand and never once was it stated that these things had any effect on their ability to use the force.

I see the distinction as being that , despite their mechanical limbs, Vader and Luke remain essentially organic life forms. Yoda tells us in ESB that life creates the Force. I say that it follows that only life can use it. I see where you're coming from with the sentience argument, but I would still regard sentient droids as not being part of the Force, as organic life is. These are my own opinions, of course!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: Commander Courage
... don't you think another 20 year gap is a bit long? I mean, between 3 and 4 it makes sense due to the Jedi having to go into hiding, waiting for the twins to come of age, but what would happen in that second 20 year hiatus?
I've been considering this from an overall saga point of view. As usual, all comments are welcome!

I'm thinking that the point of the saga is to tell the story of the darkest hour of the galaxy's history and the story of those who fought to liberate it.

Therefore, Episode IX is when the Empire finally falls. Episode I will be when Palpatine declares himself Emperor and the Republic becomes the Empire. The Senate is not dissolved until Episode IV, as we know.

The events of ROTJ, I feel, are not really enough to put an end to the Galactic Empire. For a start, the Emperor will not be defeated until Episode IX now. But the destruction of the Death Star and the defeat of the fleet of Imperial ships present is not sufficient to bring down the whole thing.

I see the 20 years as being the time required for Luke to grow into an experienced Jedi and to start rebuilding the order. I see it as the length of time required to find his sister. I see it as the length of time required by the Rebel Alliance to muster the force needed to defeat the Empire once and for all. I see it as the length of time required to turn the tide of popular opinion, as the ordinary people of the galaxy will have been force-fed Imperial propaganda for more than 50 years by the time Episode VII begins.

It also opens out the saga. The focus is on the overall journey of the galaxy and the characters we meet are incidental to that story. This brings back the epic scale of the saga.

What do we think, people?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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It would take Luke a long time to track down all the scattered Jedi in the galaxy and bring them together to start a new temple. It would take a long time to find new apprentices. It would take a long time to track down his sister, as I intend for no-one but Padme to know her destination when she leaves. These reasons alone make a 20 year gap justified, I think.

Comments welcome, guys!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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One thing I felt the PT needed, and maybe it was already mentioned before, were more individuals on Obi-Wan and Yoda's level. I never understood why everything fell into place so cleanly (i.e. Obi-Wan and Yoda being the only two "good" and known Jedi to survive Order 66). Now, I understood Mace getting his ass handed to them, but what does it say when people like Ki-Adi Mundi and that green-skinned woman on the jungle planet (I don't remember her name) get killed instantly, but Obi-Wan (who gets his lightsaber back and is a fair distance away before being shot at) and Yoda (who also seems to be the only one to sense when the Clone Troopers are about to shoot) survive due to dumb luck? It's more of a personal gripe for me.

Have the Jedi ever heard of taking cover?

(And before you ask, I'm talking about the movies. No EU stuff.)
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I agree with you. The project I'm planning supposes that the Sith, not Stormtroopers, attack the Jedi. Either way, I think one must conclude that Yoda and Ben are not the only Jedi to survive, hence my post just before yours.

In fact, an earlier idea for a novel was following a Jedi marooned on a primitive world around the time that Ben is retiring to Tatooine.
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
I agree with you. The project I'm planning supposes that the Sith, not Stormtroopers, attack the Jedi. Either way, I think one must conclude that Yoda and Ben are not the only Jedi to survive, hence my post just before yours.

In fact, an earlier idea for a novel was following a Jedi marooned on a primitive world around the time that Ben is retiring to Tatooine.


That would be an interesting prospect. I was just frustrated when I saw Obi-Wan and Yoda dispatching a horde of Clone Troopers without even breaking a sweat. I understand that they are the heroes, but if the rest of the Jedi Council is supposed to be on their level, how about they use some common sense? Force push some Clone Troopers, get out of there quickly, anything? Granted, there were a couple of them who were in vehicles and couldn't do much, but someone like Ki-Adi-Mundi stands there in the cold trying to deflect many incoming shots, while he's standing in front of a massive piece of debris he could use for cover. It makes me want to go up to these people and say, "Wake up, McFly!"
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I see the 20 years as being the time required for Luke to grow into an experienced Jedi and to start rebuilding the order. I see it as the length of time required to find his sister. I see it as the length of time required by the Rebel Alliance to muster the force needed to defeat the Empire once and for all. I see it as the length of time required to turn the tide of popular opinion, as the ordinary people of the galaxy will have been force-fed Imperial propaganda for more than 50 years by the time Episode VII begins.

I like this approach and can see the twenty year gap working if handled appropriately.

Luke tracking down his sister: not only her, but finding other Jedi Knights who survived the purge perhaps? Maybe having to fight them to prove his worth, or even kill their leader? Just some more vague ideas for the Sequel Trilogy.

As for the Sith Lords, do you have any ideas on their characters outside of Vader and the Emperor? I'd like for Darth Maul to be featured one way or another, for instance. Would more than just Vader and Palpatine exist after Episode III? I would imagine so. How would they impact the Galactic Civil War?