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What did the Prequel Trilogy need? — Page 6

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I personally didn't feel that the, "and he was good friend" line, first described by Obi-Wan in Star Wars, was ever really evident in the Prequels at all.
Their relationship seemed based on quips, sarcasm and a "don't do it like that, do it like this" or, "I'm much better with a lightsaber than you", kind of approach.
More like a bad marriage of 'inconvenience' than a genuine friendship.

I guess I was expecting more of the Biggs/Luke type friendship, from the way Alec Guiness portrayed Anakin to us originally in Star Wars.
Old Obi was a conniving old bugger though, so he may not have been telling Luke the "whole truth" of how good a pal he was to his dad.

I do agree with D Cracker, that the comradery that should have been there throughout the PT was severely lacking, and the way the
Obi/Anakin was handled for the PT is just one example.





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Just found a good quote in the SW novel:

Luke leaned back in the seat, luxuriating in unaccustomed relaxation as Threepio skillfully directed the powerful landcraft around dunes and rocky outcrops. "You handle a landspeeder pretty well, for a machine," he noted admiringly.
"Thank you, sir," a gratified Threepio responded, his eyes never moving from the landscape ahead. "I was not lying to your uncle when I claimed verstility as my middle name. In fact, on occasion I have been called upon to perform unexpected functions in circumstances which would have appalled my designers."


I have not really addressed a nagging issue with the droids. I would love to keep them in the PT. I don't think we need to see how they meet. I prefer the idea that they are there from well before the beginning of Anakin & Obi-Wan's story and well after the end of Luke & Vader's. I find it a satisfying thought that the droids are much older than any of the other characters (except, perhaps, Yoda) and are unchanging, unlike their organic owners. The droids lead us through the story and we see many events from their perspective. Sometimes they drive the story forward, as in ANH, and sometimes they are caught along by the events around them.

Artoo & Threepio are a solid basis from which to construct the story. They allow us to observe galactic and personal events from an immortal perspective.

Any thoughts?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Have you read Curtis Saxton's essay on droids, the prequels, and continuity? He pretty much agrees that Threepio is very old, knows a lot more than he lets on, but is incapable of relating what he knows due to his protocol programming. Unlike a biological organism with a "real" mind, Threepio's decision-making ability is strictly limited by the constraints of his programming ... and that makes the whole thing kind of a bittersweet sci-fi tragedy. From a certain point of view.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Well I've found, Scruffy, that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view...

That's awesome, thanks for that link! It sounds like just the kind of thing I was trying to express!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: Scruffy
Originally posted by: AJ
I however do not like how they killed Padme'. I always thought they should have put one of her look-a-like handmaidens in the coffen. That is what I would have done, so Padme' could've gone off with Leia.


That's what I think actually happened. She had doubles standing in for her to protect her in the first two movies, and that was a neat trick. If a double (or clone, or mannequin, or something) took her place in the grave -- well, that turns a neat trick into a thematic element carried to a meaningful and logical conclusion. It might not have been the auteur's intention, but sometimes auteur's accidentally make things more complex and interesting than they had intended.


I think this was the worst part (besides Anakin's turn) for me in the entire PT. Padme's death was a completely wasted opportunity. She could've easily died from her injuries, but it had to be "losing the will to live". WTF?! She lost the will to live when she's about to give birth?! Name one woman that wouldn't want to live for her children.

I had thought that instead of using one of her doubles, they just made it look like she died pregnant (I believe she's suppose to look pregnant). That way, Vader and the Emperor don't try to come after the twins. She could have easily survived, had her death faked, and been put into hiding, but it was just another missed opportunity. With her death faked, they could separate the twins and let Leia grow up with her a bit until she gets killed by some other means (spies?). Then Leia's memory would make more sense instead of her "Force connection".
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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I appreciate the link, Scruffy. But this Curtis Saxton guy is coming at this from a totally different angle to me. He goes to herculean lengths to marry up the PT to the SEs and EU. It would be admirable if it wasn't so... sad!

Later, in the safety of Kenobi's hovel, Artoo burst out with excitement (and perhaps recognition) upon sighting Anakin's lightsabre.

Right...

In his early conversations with Luke Skywalker, he evaded discussion of Princess Leia until late after key facts were told in Kenobi's presence. When Obi-Wan began to tell Luke a tale about Anakin and the Jedi, Threepio requested to be shut down, likely to avoid discussion and facing awkward memories about his Maker's tragic fate. Nevertheless the supposedly inert droid was only pretending unconsciousness; as he eavesdropped on the conversation he swayed slightly but visibly. This evasive behaviour was prompted by Threepio's recognition of Anakin's lightsabre.

Uh-huh...

For their part, neither droid could be expected to recognise Kenobi (or Owen Lars) in the Tatooine desert after 19 years of aging.

Er...

Vader didn't meet R2-D2 on Bespin, and he might not have cared enough to address C-3PO there. However the fact that he sent C-3PO's parts to Chewbacca's cell for repair could be interpreted as an act of mercy.


But...

C-3PO ought to have remembered his earlier experiences on Tatooine when he returned in A New Hope, yet he seemed unfamiliar with the Dune Sea. Perhaps he had spent most of his early existence in the comfort of the towns and the Lars farm, avoiding the most desolate areas.


Now, hang on...

Later evidence conclusively disproves the "mind-wipe" theories, at least with regard to C-3PO. During preparations for Luke Skywalker's wedding [Union #1], C-3PO declares that "I first met the groom, Master Luke Skywalker, on Tatooine, the planet of my birth." Therefore he does recall his origins with Anakin and Shmi Skywalker. If he rarely speaks of those times, it is because of indifference, absent-mindedness or strict confidentiality.


You can't...

C-3PO is tactful and secretive, and a bit self-centred. R2-D2 is unintelligible to almost everyone except C-3PO. Both droids are common models, and the human characters they dealt with in the prequel era had been wounded or aged beyond recognition by the time Luke Skywalker's adventures began. These two facts explain all of the would-be discontinuities.


[Sigh]

Okay, Curtis. Very good. Well done.

[Walks away, shaking head]
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Saxton is a published SW author, so of course he has to be familiar with the whole canon. He's also the most rigorous thinker associated with SW. Do you have some comments to make regarding the selections you quoted?
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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I certainly didn't mean to upset you, Scruffy! I love you, man!

I picked those parts because, to me, they seemed the most speculative and strained of his remarks. Seriously, I think the guy just needs to admit to himself that Luca$h just didn't think about integrating with the EU or even the '97 SEs when he made the PT!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Well, Lucas always said that if he wanted to do something different than what the EU said, he was going to do it. At that point, it would be up to the EU authors to make it work. But this guy just seems sad.

I met a guy at a party once that was kind of like this. He was an author that was trying to write prequel stories to some things he'd written himself and he said it was very difficult to do. He used that as evidence to say that Lucas must have had the whole thing planned since there were to many similarities for it to have "just worked out". His biggest example was that in the OT, R2 is almost always with Luke and in the PT, R2 is almost always with Anakin. I tried to explain how that would be quite easy to do in the prequels, but he wouldn't really have it. He was convinced that everything was planned from the beginning because otherwise, it was just to hard to make it all work. This was just after ROTS came out, but I doubt that that changed his mind. I even said "but he's not making it work!". His response was that he was and it did. He even cited 3PO and R2's actions on Tattooine in the first movie as perfect examples of how it was planned from the beginning. Of course, I think those things just happen to fit, but only after ROTS came out and 3PO's memory was erased.
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: lordjedi
Of course, I think those things just happen to fit, but only after ROTS came out and 3PO's memory was erased.

D'y'know what? That bit was going through my mind when I saw Curtis had written:

The most simplistic commentators speculate that the droids' minds were wiped between the wars, but this is a drastic, excessive and unnecessary theory.


D'OH!

He's going to have to come up with a whole new theory now!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Everyone I know was speculating that. It was even a huge, and very viable, theory on TFN. Lucas had pretty much worked himself into a corner and needed a way out. A memory wipe was the perfect solution (and an easy way out ).
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You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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I personally hated the idea of the droids in the PT, but I do know of a way they could have fit where I would have been quite happy with the results. It would have been cool if the droids had been in the PT but never met the major characters. They had their own subplot where they would be able to happen to wander into areas right before or right after the main characters. But they'd never understand each other's motives or even see each other. So the droids could walk into a battle site after the Jedi were done and have their own comments and theories as to what happened. It would become a fun running gag that they'd always just miss the action. Then he could have had the droids in there as an interesting comedic device without having to worry about how it was going to integrate into the existing movies.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
In his early conversations with Luke Skywalker, he evaded discussion of Princess Leia until late after key facts were told in Kenobi's presence. When Obi-Wan began to tell Luke a tale about Anakin and the Jedi, Threepio requested to be shut down, likely to avoid discussion and facing awkward memories about his Maker's tragic fate. Nevertheless the supposedly inert droid was only pretending unconsciousness; as he eavesdropped on the conversation he swayed slightly but visibly. This evasive behaviour was prompted by Threepio's recognition of Anakin's lightsabre.


Uh-huh...


Yeah, I can field this one.

It's a man. Pretending to be a robot. And he's in a suit. And he can't stay perfectly still.

Sometimes the best answer is the easiest answer.
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Originally posted by: crazyrabbits
It's a man. Pretending to be a robot. And he's in a suit. And he can't stay perfectly still.


http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8661/toucheyy4.jpg
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I think that Threepio and Artoo must remain our guides throughout the saga. It's just one more thing that Luca$h got right in '77 that he's now decided he won't maintain. The droids are ageless and their characters are unchanging - the perfect companions through a saga spanning generations of humans.

Memory wipes seem to me to be a perfectly acceptable way of maintaining the integrity of how they behave in ANH. Uncle Owen tells Luke to have it done after he reveals that they have mentioned Obi-Wan. This tells us:

(a) the procedure is standard practice.

(b) it is provided as a service, like for any other kind of machinery.

This allows us to have a little fun with the droids at their expense because, unlike your classic immortals, they are almost entirely at the mercy of their organic masters.

They could have their memories erased at the beginning of Episode I and then again when they are given to Captain Antilles. This means that the droids don't know what we know at the beginning of ANH. I don't think that this would in any way impair their role as companions for us. If we establish that the procedure is standard for droids when changing hands, then Threepio and Artoo would be quite used to it. It gives us a nice mystery as to how many owners the droids have had since being built and leaves us unsure as to just how old they really are. It might be fun to have the droids allude to their most recent owner and their experiences with him or her before their memories are erased in Episode I.

After all, what is the SW experience without Threepio and Artoo?!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Well, in Attack of the Clones, we wouldn't have any crappy pop-culture slang 3PO dialogue. And in Revenge of the Sith, we'd have a lot less R2 rocket hovering, beating up useless super battle droids, and catching them on fire. And I could certainly live without all that. So... yeah.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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But surely you would agree, Mr Tape, that the characterisations of the droids were well wide of the mark. I'd say they were among the very worst of a very, very bad bunch in the PT, wouldn't you?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
I think that Threepio and Artoo must remain our guides throughout the saga. It's just one more thing that Luca$h got right in '77 that he's now decided he won't maintain. The droids are ageless and their characters are unchanging - the perfect companions through a saga spanning generations of humans.

Memory wipes seem to me to be a perfectly acceptable way of maintaining the integrity of how they behave in ANH. Uncle Owen tells Luke to have it done after he reveals that they have mentioned Obi-Wan. This tells us:

(a) the procedure is standard practice.

(b) it is provided as a service, like for any other kind of machinery.

This allows us to have a little fun with the droids at their expense because, unlike your classic immortals, they are almost entirely at the mercy of their organic masters.

They could have their memories erased at the beginning of Episode I and then again when they are given to Captain Antilles. This means that the droids don't know what we know at the beginning of ANH. I don't think that this would in any way impair their role as companions for us. If we establish that the procedure is standard for droids when changing hands, then Threepio and Artoo would be quite used to it. It gives us a nice mystery as to how many owners the droids have had since being built and leaves us unsure as to just how old they really are. It might be fun to have the droids allude to their most recent owner and their experiences with him or her before their memories are erased in Episode I.

After all, what is the SW experience without Threepio and Artoo?!



Except that only Threepio had his memory wiped. Sure, R2 speaks in beeps and whistles, but there's no reason to believe the Empire doesn't have protocol droids and other means of dumping his memory. I can honestly think of no reason why they'd wipe threepio's memory and not R2's. I do agree that it seems to be standard practice whenever droids change hands. For the longest time though, there were rumors floating around the internet that Threepio and Artoo were the only droids known to have never had a memory wipe, which is why they had such interesting personalities. I still think it was just GL's way of working himself out of a hole. Threepio never remembered Tattooine even though he was activated there, so something had to be done to rectify that. In the same context, R2 either really didn't know who the Princess was (which is what I think) or he's trying to keep the secret from Luke (why?). At that point, Luke is Artoo's best hope of getting to Obi-Wan, yet he goes off on his own.

Of course, I think I just missed the entire point of your post. Are you saying the PT would have been better if both droids had their memory wiped? Now that I think I can agree with
F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: crazyrabbits
It's a man. Pretending to be a robot. And he's in a suit. And he can't stay perfectly still.


http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8661/toucheyy4.jpg


I like the cut of your jib.

I'd also like to see the part in ROTS where Artoo got his nifty rocket boosters.

Knowing Lucas, I don't want to give him any ideas, for fear that he may make a CGI'd scene in ESB where Artoo rocket blasts his way out of the Dagobah swamp.
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Originally posted by: crazyrabbits

Knowing Lucas, I don't want to give him any ideas, for fear that he may make a CGI'd scene in ESB where Artoo rocket blasts his way out of the Dagobah swamp.


That could never happen. The warranty on the rockets expired a long time ago, so they had them removed to prevent any malfunctions

F Scale score - 3.3333333333333335

You are disciplined but tolerant; a true American.

Pissing off Rob since August 2007.
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
But surely you would agree, Mr Tape, that the characterisations of the droids were well wide of the mark. I'd say they were among the very worst of a very, very bad bunch in the PT, wouldn't you?


Yeah, that's what I'm saying, and I'd prefer they weren't there at all.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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This is a really great thread guys. I love reading everyones ideas for the prequels that might have been, although it just makes me feel even worse about what we actually got. When I see this kind of stuff it becomes clear to me that, try as they might, fan edits will never give us the Episodes 1, 2, and 3 we deserved. That won't stop us from trying though!

Bootfit: That was an excellent scene, and I hope you expand it into a larger work.

Auraloffalwaffle: You have some great thoughts on how the prequels should been, but I am especially interested in your "SW '77" version of the saga. It would certainly be a unique way of telling the story. Your dilemma on the "I am your father" plotpoint really got me thinking:

Back in 1980, when Vader made this revelation, did everyone necessarily think this meant Darth Vader was in fact Anakin Skywalker (and I know that name was not in the public domain until RotJ, but I'm using it here to make my point better)? Growing up with the knowledge of Vader=Anakin, the thought never crossed my mind, but based on how the facts were presented at that point, would it not have been in the realm of possibility that Vader and Anakin were still two different people, as you suggested, and Vader had impregnated Anakin's wife, resulting in Luke? Of course the entire dynamic of redemption and such in RotJ would have been radically different, but this scenario would have made for a equally if not superior story. Not to mention this totally salvages Obi-Wan's character, as he is being completely truthful about Anakin with Luke in ANH, going with the assumption that he is Luke's proper father. Does anyone think Lucas may have considered going in this direction but decided against it as it would make for a rather dark story? It would be just another example of him selling out in RotJ.

Wow, I'm really excited about this version of the Star Wars saga now! In fact, if you don't write it, I might!
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I am certainly planning to write my PT once I've got all these ideas straightened out. But hey, if you're inspired, why not write one of your own? Go for it!

Okay, so I'm settled on the idea of memory wipes for the droids. But that leaves us with the thorny issue of Obi-Wan's response to them. Does he really not recognise them? Is he being evasive? He doesn't say that he doesn't recognise them, he says that he can't remember ever owning a droid. If he knows that they won't recognise him because they had their minds wiped when they joined the crew of the Tantive IV, then he won't be worried about them giving the game away. But what reason would he have to avoid saying that he knew the droids?

It could just be that he doesn't recognise them. The type of droids which Threepio & Artoo belong to are commonplace machines. But they do have particular personalities. Wouldn't that jog his memory?

If I take the decision to keep the droids as the thread which takes us through the saga, then Obi-Wan will inevitably know them before ANH. This leaves me with having to sort out why he doesn't come out with "Artoo! Threepio! My old friends! How long has it been?"

It's entirely possible to avoid Owen and Beru meeting the droids before ANH. There's no reason why the droids have to be there at any point when Anakin or Obi-Wan are on Tatooine with Anakin's family.

Hmmm...
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Obiwan never struck me as a guy who would have ever been close friends with droids. Any droids. He's just too amazing for that.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Yeah, leaving the droids in is just too complicated and too "universe-shrinking". It's much better that they first enter the story in the original movie.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.