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What did the Prequel Trilogy need? — Page 4

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
About Jar Jar [...] Again, there's nothing particularly good about him, but I can tolerate him in my amusement I guess I could say. Also, I was always sort of impressed in a technical way at how they could make a digital character look almost decent next to everybody and on real movie sets (most notably after seeing how horrible the digital Jabba looked in those scenes with Han Solo in the special edition of Star Wars).


I totally understand this perspective, and it makes very much sense. Also, Lucas has stated something along the lines of what you say pretty explicitly in that he saw the inclusion of a completely digital actor alongside real ones as a technological challenge he wanted to master. I have no problems with any of this at all, and as much as lots of the CGI and SFX look plasticky and unreal, I don't really care about that either. I don't actually hate Jar Jar, but I see him more or less as the personification of the greater problems with the films. In the end, my issue is really with the inappropriate storytelling. I was looking for a light hearted science fiction fantasy fairy tale about the great and epic struggle between good and evil told in such a way that kids and adults, young and old alike, would marvel and rejoice at this great tale, because that's the sort of entertainment the OT was. This is what made and defined Star Wars to me, and to me the PT just doesn't feel like Star Wars, except perhaps for a few and brief moments.
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I like your work, Bootcut! May I say: very Leone? And with a bit of 'Unforgiven' and 'Lawrence Of Arabia' too. Great sense of atmosphere and a very suitable epic feel.

As I have said earlier, I prefer to have Anakin starting from never having even heard of Tatooine, but I readily accept that this is not set in stone by the OOT, it is merely my own preference!

You really gave Obi-Wan & Anakin a real demonstration of friendship, which, as has been said, was entirely lacking from the PT.

Please post more, as & when!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Actually I am one of the many that actually hate Jar Jar with a passion, cause his whole antics showed me that Lucas really didn't have a handle on how these movies should play out.

If you watch TPM, Jar Jar is not funny at all, and he practically ruins every scene, and what bothers me is he ruins what could have been three dramatic scenes.

-When Padme & Anakin first meet, should have been very iconic and should have foreshadowed how everything goes wrong because of these two individuals for the rest of the saga. Instead you get Jar Jar doing slap stick comedy in the backround while fumbling & bumbling into all the tools and objects in the junkyard.

-When they are all at the dinner table at Anakins house and it is a pivotal scene in the movie with good dialogue between Anakin & QuiGon. But through that we get Jar Jar spitting out his tongue, belching, and saying 'scuse me' while QuiGon grabs his tongue.

-The Gungan battle vs The droids starts off so great, but ends with total comedy schtick with Jar Jar jumping up and down with a gun wrapped around his foot killing a couple of droids within seconds, just an awful ending to a great setup.

If you watch The Original SW Lucas knew when it was time for comedy and time for drama. Just watch the ObiWan/Luke talk about Lukes father in ObiWans hutt. Right before it gets to the key conversation in the movie, C3PO says, "If you don't need me anymore sir, I am going to shut off for a while." That is Lucas understanding in 1977 that we don't need to hear annoying C-3PO while Obiwan talks about the force, the lightsaber, and Lukes father being killed by Vader.

The ending of The Original SW as Luke is trying to blow up the death star, it keeps cutting back to Leia and C3PO, but they say nothing, there is no need to hear them talk, just the look of despair on their face makes the drama in the scene so much better.

I often wonder what happened to Lucas from 1977 to 1999, and how he could make such a perfect movie where everything is done right in terms of comedy, drama, and action for the Original SW, and how everything is done totally wrong in terms of comedy, drama, and action in TPM.

TPM is a dud in my view, cause the main characters are QuiGon & Jar Jar, and Padme, and two of them are irrelevant after seeing the PT. That movie is not even a good setup movie.


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If you watch The Original SW Lucas knew when it was time for comedy and time for drama. Just watch the ObiWan/Luke talk about Lukes father in ObiWans hutt. Right before it gets to the key conversation in the movie, C3PO says, "If you don't need me anymore sir, I am going to shut off for a while." That is Lucas understanding in 1977 that we don't need to hear annoying C-3PO while Obiwan talks about the force, the lightsaber, and Lukes father being killed by Vader.


Honestly, even if 3PO hadn't been shut down at that point, I don't think he would have said anything. It's not in his character, especially not in the first movie. He knows he's a servant. He wouldn't start spouting off whiny, prissy chatter at a somber moment, just like he didn't say anything when Luke was grieving over Ben later on. The droids just watched with sadness, and R2 gave a tiny whine. But like I said, especially in the first movie, he wouldn't have gotten in the way. In the sequels, where he got more tinny and whiny... eh, possibly. In the prequels, he probably would have said, "That's whack!" or some other pop culture phrase that's totally out of place.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: CO
If you watch TPM, Jar Jar is not funny at all, and he practically ruins every scene, and what bothers me is he ruins what could have been three dramatic scenes.


Yeah, he definitely ruins the drama and gets in the way a lot, and is perhaps the single greatest element in TPM that makes it lose its Star-Wars feel. But, I can still handle him as a character if I expect nothing from the film other than what it offers. Perhaps that's just me though.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Well, like it's been said, TPM fares much better as a standalone movie than as a part of the Star Wars "saga" (am I the only person who thinks the word "saga" is thrown about like feces lately in regard to Star Wars... also the word "scope," and if you don't believe me, look at the back of the box on all three prequel DVDs). On its own, it's a decent action/adventure, but as a Star Wars movie, it pretty much lacks any thing that can fit it with that universe. For those that say that its connection is through the other two prequels, well, maybe that's true, but that would be the equivalent of third cousins, right? And that's not a very close relation.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: Tiptup
Yeah, he definitely ruins the drama and gets in the way a lot, and is perhaps the single greatest element in TPM that makes it lose its Star-Wars feel. But, I can still handle him as a character if I expect nothing from the film other than what it offers. Perhaps that's just me though.

I think this is correct. Had Lucas decided to market these films as, say, Clone Wars rather than Star Wars with a different logo, no opening crawl or at least a different one and so on, basically something along the lines of the Ewok films, then chances are most people would have had fewer problems with them, since it would have been much easier to just let the new "brand name" establish itself as the story played out over the years. However, when Lucas decided to market the new movies as a direct prelude to the OT, being part of the same story on the same level as the original films, he invariably created a lot of expectations since everyone used the older films a measuring stick for what these new films would and should be like. Of course, marketing the PT under a different name would most likely have generated a lot less interest in the project, and so less money for Lucas, which likely goes a long way to explain why he never seriously considered that option.
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Originally posted by: CO
Actually I am one of the many that actually hate Jar Jar with a passion, cause his whole antics showed me that Lucas really didn't have a handle on how these movies should play out.

I understand this point of view as well, although my feelings for Jar Jar are limited to a sullen contempt as he's just part of the problem. Even with Jar Jar removed from Episode 1 (as most of the fan edits have done), it is just a dull film even though it isn't as annoying anymore. This is also evidenced by the last two prequels, which had very little Jar Jar in them, but still didn't come close to being viable stories. I actually tried to watch AOTC again yesterday, and even though I skipped past the romance scenes, I still had to turn the movie off halfway through. It was just too boring.

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Okay, I just signed up and I know I'm entering the fray quite late, but after looking at your arguments for the original trilogy, then spending a couple of days of watching both, and REALLY watching both(not just enjoying the PT because, hey, its Star Wars, and even at it's worst it's better than My Gay Friends Best Wedding or some other claptrap featuring Hugh Grant or Julia Roberts), I've come up with thoughts, certainly not definitive, on why the PT cannot even be considered in the same context of the original three. Unfortunately its long, so if you need to something marginally important(i.e spending valuable time with loved ones), you want to go ahead and skip this.

1) No trademark lines. This speaks to the dialogue, of course, but one of the most amazing parts of the OT was the classic phrases that invariably you would find ways afterwards to work into your life in an albeit inappropriate, but really satisfying ways. I'm talking about the:

"I have you now."
"All too easy."
"He's no good to me dead."
"Never tell me the odds."
"Luminous beings are we."
"Do or do not. There is no try."
"Yeah, I bet you have."
"Awwwwaggghh." Okay, this is Chewie’s and doesn't really count. But I often scream it during sex. It's okay to feel really bad for my girlfriend right now. The social services people feel the same way.

This is just the VERY tip of the iceberg. There is nothing even close in the OT. Instead we have:

"I killed them all. Even the women and children."
"This is really pod racing."
"Anakin, you’re breaking my heart."
"Only a sith thinks in absolutes." Which is, as we all know, is an ABSOLUTE statement.
"I enjoy making lots of money on shitty taco bell promotions." This last one is McCallum.

No, its not because so much time has past that the first movies were classic. Anyone who was in a elementary school classroom the week after the OT movies came out could attest to that. It's that that someone took the time to make sure the dialogue matched the characters and scope of the plot. That didn’t happen in the OT.

2) There was no point to AOTC. There was no reason to make the movie, there was no reveal, it introduced an enemy that was dispatched in the first five minutes of ROTS, and it reduced the super cool storm troopers, who before were valued elite forces, to a bunch of frickin' clones. We learned that Anakin gets, "angry?" That’s the reason were making this movie? As fans, the tip-off than Anakin gets "angry" should be in the first three movies when his hobby is using force choke on high ranking members of the imperial army. I guess it sold a lot of toys, so that's something.

3) The adversaries were one-offs with no real connection to the plot. Darth Maul was super bad-ass looking, and yes, like every other fanboy I proverbially creamed in my not so proverbially jeans over the double bladed lightsaber. That was awesome. But what wasn't so awesome was how he had three lines, and just died. Then in Ep II, we get this old guy, who we are told (at least in the sourcebooks and novels) is the greatest swordsman in the jedi lore. He is introduced briefly, then dies right away in EpIII. And Grievous? What halfway decent writer introduces a new, unannounced, unreferenced villain in the third ACT? It's not Jabba, who was mentioned in A New Hope and Empire, so when we finally saw him, makes complete sense and his death represents something. I really feel Grievous was just there to sell action figures. Now, if you told me that Grievous was the remains of Maul, well, then we have something. You have precedent, a chance for a big reveal, and a very dramatic fight between an older Obi-Wan and a renewed Maul. Instead You have a CGI stroke-fest.Vader, the emperor, and to a lesser extent, Boba Fett were allowed to develop in front of the audience throughout the series, so their eventual demise said something. These new sith were just a bunch of thugs.

One other thing, which really isn't significant enough to merit a separate point, but you’re here anyway and I'm bored is the age of Obi- Wan. I grew up thinking, and therefore using action figures to recreate, that he was in his mid to late seventies in A New Hope. Using the timeline suggested by the PT, he is in his 50's in A New Hope. Qui-Gon was in his fifties, and he's flipping around, twirling lightsabers and cutting trough droid armies. A New Hope Obi Wan is shuffling around and scurrying away from sandpeople. It makes no sense. My action figure recreations were ruined. Because of this incongruity, I was forced once again to dredge out the action figures and replay the battles with the correct timeline. And yes, due to length of said action figure recreation battles they may have elapsed into my girlfriend's birthday dinner plans. Thanks a lot, Lucas!

Thanks of staying around. Later.Text
"All too easy."
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As fans, the tip-off than Anakin gets "angry" should be in the first three movies when his hobby is using force choke on high ranking members of the imperial army.


I'd just like to point out that Vader never used his Force choke on any member of the Imperial Army. He seemed generally pleased by the performance of the Army. It was the Navy he hated. And the Imperial officer corps seemed to know this. Other than Ozzel, the wardroom officers of the Executor are seen to cringe and stare at Vader -- even the more junior officers eyeball him behind his back. The Army officers treat him with respect and professionalism; look at how confidently the junior officer briefs Lord Vader on the circumstances of Skywalker's capture in RotJ, the ease with which Veers reports to Vader in ESB. Similarly, the pilot officers in ANH interact with Vader like real professionals. Only the Naval officers act like beaten dogs around Lord Vader.

I'm not sure why Vader had such a distaste for the Naval service. There may have been some residual "brown-shoe" antipathy for the boat-drivers. Or he may have spent the RotS-ANH years primarily among the Army, putting down Jedi cultists and insurgents; or among the starfighter forces, providing precision strikes and close-in protection for Imperial dignitaries -- only dealing with the Navy after he had proved himself worthy of the joint command he seems to exercise. Perhaps Naval officers in the Empire were simply ruder and less competent than their Army counterparts. It certainly seems possible that, in the early Imperial military build-up, one could "purchase" a Naval commission easier than an Army commission -- you just have to bring your own ship!
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Wow. Leave it to Scruffy to really clarify all the military subtleties that I never would have noticed.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Originally posted by: JediRocco
1) No trademark lines. This speaks to the dialogue, of course, but one of the most amazing parts of the OT was the classic phrases that invariably you would find ways afterwards to work into your life in an albeit inappropriate, but really satisfying ways. I'm talking about the:

"I have you now."
"All too easy."
"He's no good to me dead."
"Never tell me the odds."
"Luminous beings are we."
"Do or do not. There is no try."
"Yeah, I bet you have."
"Awwwwaggghh." Okay, this is Chewie’s and doesn't really count. But I often scream it during sex. It's okay to feel really bad for my girlfriend right now. The social services people feel the same way.

This is just the VERY tip of the iceberg. There is nothing even close in the OT. Instead we have:

"I killed them all. Even the women and children."
"This is really pod racing."
"Anakin, you’re breaking my heart."
"Only a sith thinks in absolutes." Which is, as we all know, is an ABSOLUTE statement.
"I enjoy making lots of money on shitty taco bell promotions." This last one is McCallum.
Text

The OT films are some of the most quoted films in history, and even Roger Ebert said in his review of AOTC that "I was amazed, at the end of 'Episode II,' to realize that I had not heard one line of quotable, memorable dialogue".

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Heh, you made great points, Jedi Rocco. The original trilogy had great dialogue that any true Star Wars fan will quote for random situations in life. The most memorable PT lines were remembered only because of how terrible they were.

Oh, and I do feel very sorry for your girlfriend.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Thanks for responding. Sorry kept putting OT when I meant PT. And PT when I meant OT. And OPP when I meant Other Prequels Palpatine. I was still feeling the after-effects of my life day celebration the evening before.
"All too easy."
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"I was amazed, at the end of 'Episode II,' to realize that I had not heard one line of quotable, memorable dialogue".

Well I have some personal ones:
"Someday I will stop people from dying"
"Youre asking me to be rational. You know I cannot do that"
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The ones I think are significant in AOTC:

"I love Democracy, I love The Republic..."

"I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe."

"Always a pleasure to meet a Jedi" - I was greeted this by John Rhys-Davies no less, at a con when he saw that I was dressed as Jedi.

"The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is."

"This weapon is your life."
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Originally posted by: generalfrevious
I was being sarcastic

I can't believe nobody has mentioned this one yet:

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Though like the rest of the PT, it's best forgotten.
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Less fanboys.
"Among many things I have to be thankful for are you, the fans. I know that some of you haven't liked every single thing that I've done with the saga, and that you have a strong sense of ownership over all things Star Wars. But take that passion and devotion and channel it into a creative project of your own."
-George Lucas
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I have revised my opinion of Anakin's origins. I apologise to Bootcut, as I said in a previous post that I prefer to have Anakin originating from a different planet to Tatooine and that his home planet is not stated in the OOT. I have since dug up my copy of the ANH script and spotted an omission from my reckonings:

That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals; thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.

Clearly Anakin does come from Tatooine. Mea culpa. I went through the script and picked out lines that I felt were pertinent to any attempts to create a credible PT. I found it a very refreshing exercise, particularly because I discovered that it contained the (still!) excised scene on Tatooine with Biggs. Not bad for a freebie from Empire magazine! My favourite line from that scene:

Your uncle could hold off a whole colony of Sand People with one blaster.

Also, from the scene replaced in the SE between Luke, Biggs and Red Leader (has anyone ever named this character?) before the BOY, Red Leader says:

I met your father once, when I was just a boy. He was a great pilot. You'll do alright. If you've got half of your father's skill, you'll do better than alright.

There is an extended line that I find very valuable in this enterprise, said to Princess Leia by the Rebel Commander that meets them when they arrive at the Massassi Outpost:

When we heard about Alderaan we were afraid that you were... lost along with your father.


Combine this with the recording placed in R2:

General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope!


It suddenly made me think: Leia got over the shock of Alderaan being destroyed, with her adoptive family on it, rather easily, don't you think? Anyway, it means that any true PT would have to show the importance of Bail Organa. He was clearly a military leader of Republican forces in the Clone Wars and is a major player in the Rebel Alliance after the Clone Wars have been lost. Tarkin would obviously want Organa out of the way. Vader reveals to Leia at the start of ANH that the Empire knows she's part of the Rebel Alliance. It's a cinch that they know Bail Organa's in on it too.

This would be one of the reasons why Tarkin proceeds with the destruction of Alderaan. It is a populous world, it was, perhaps, one of the last worlds to hold out against the Empire at the close of the Clone Wars and it is home to an active Rebel leader. What a perfect first victim for the Death Star. What a signal to send to the Rebel Alliance. And, it being an important planet, the news is sure to spread fast. If Dantooine had been destroyed, the news may not have been so sensational. I was lead to consider this line from Tarkin:

Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration.


I had always thought that he was referring to the Alliance when he was talking about making a demonstration, as in the rebels making a demonstration against the Empire. I now consider him to be referring to an effective demonstration of the Death Star.

My favourite quote:

For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic. Before the dark times... before the Empire.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: JediRandy
Less fanboys.

Are there really that many people who truly cherish the PT? Time will tell, but I doubt it. Seeing as it's just over a year since the last movie of the PT was released, I can understand that those films still fascinate a good number of people, as is almost always the case with the latest CGI and SFX productions. I think most of those fans will have moved on in a few years though, and if it wasn't for the fact that the PT has had the same logo as the OT tacked onto it, the brand name which signifies one of the most successful works of art in movie history, it would have more or less forgotten about by now.
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Has any EU writer linked Wedge Antilles to The Antilles family of Alderaan?

I've been looking on Wikipedia for info on the families in Star Wars. Apparently Bail Antilles was the Senator for Alderaan just before Bail Organa and then Leia was the senator after him. Bail Antilles had two children - a son, Raymus, who is Captain Antilles of the blockade runner in ANH, and a daughter, Breha, who marries Bail Organa. They, as we know, become Leia's adoptive family. It would be cool if Wedge was Raymus' son, I think. Bail is said to have three siblings, which all seem to be girls: Celly, Rouge and Tia (who had a child, I think male, called Nial). So, we have one known grandparent, one uncle, three aunts and two cousins in Leia's adoptive family.

As discussed, Cliegg Lars has one son, Owen, and Shmi Skywalker has one son, Anakin. Owen married Beru Whitesun. There are no noted extensions to these families.

According to Wikipedia, Padme's surname is Naberrie, Amidala being the queen's name, which she was given after election. Her parents are Ruwee and Jobal (born Jobal Thule). Both grandmothers are named, Winama Naberrie and Ryoo Thule. Padme is said to have an older sister, Sola, who married Darred Janren and had two daughters, Ryoo and Pooja. Pooja is said to have become senator for Naboo up until the dissolution of the senate by the Emperor just before BY. She became friends with Leia, neither aware they were, in fact, cousins.

If anyone knows of any further members of these families in the EU, then please post them.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Wookieepedia might be a better source than Wikipedia. In any case, Stackpole has pretty much hammered out Wedge and I don't think he's related to George's royals.
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Thanks, Scruffy!

You old son-of-a-gun, you...
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!