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What did the Prequel Trilogy need? — Page 13

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I always thought that Lucas could have played the PT as a real backstory, narrated by Luke Skywalker (Mark Hammil) as he tells the events of the PT to his son post ROTJ.

The problem with the PT is it just doesn't work in order 1-6 for so many reasons. The focus on Anakin for the first three movies is gone by Episode IV. The special effects are SOOO different in both trilogies, and the whole tone of each trilogy doesn't jive as one continuous story.

Lucas could have changed the sequence with the Episode #'s this way:

Episode I - Star Wars
Episode II - The Empire Strikes Back
Episode III- Return of the Jedi
Episode IV - The Phantom Menace
Episode V - Attack of the Clones
Episode VI- Revenge of the Sith

Lucas could start TPM with Luke talking to his son some 20 years after ROTJ as an 'Obiwan' type role. It could flashback to him throughout the trilogy as he explains certain key plot points that Lucas is trying to convey, such as why Anakin chose to be Darth Vader. How fuckin cool would it have been for Mark Hammill to say, "And now this is the point where your grandfather was lost to the darkside!"

The different look with the new CG wouldn't be a problem to the older/newer viewer because it is essentially a backstory, not a linear story, so you can see how the Special Effects in the series progressed from 1977-2005. By telling as a backstory rather then a retelling of a linear story, Lucas wouldn't have been constricted of tying everyones fate up in ROTS with the last ten minutes.

The reason he had Padme die was so the story 1-6 would flow better, but as a backstory she could have taken Leia to Alderran and it could have ended there cause Luke is just telling what happened to her. Lucas wouldn't have needed to throw in the deathstar being shown and all that other bullshit cause he could have told just what needed to be told to flesh out the OT story, rather then do all these mirror tieins of both trilogies.

The PT should have fleshed out the OT and give it more depth the same way ESB/ROTJ fleshed out the story of Star Wars from 1977. It shouldn't have twisted the frickin story around so the OT is looked upon as different then the way we saw it before the PT!!!!! To me SW '77 is the first story that is told and the only story that is truly needed for any SW fan, cause it is the most basic, macro story of the 6 that really tells the overall story of all the characters involved in both trilogies, without getting too involved in any ONE character. The rest of the 5 movies are just more info about what we all wanted to know from the 1977 movie, and that is why Lucas should have told the PT that way. Instead we have this linear story that is so jarring, that you want to throw away the whole trilogy, and that is a real shame.
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I really think it's more interesting to keep the reveal of Palpatine for ROTJ. I think the saga, being approached as the story of the rise and fall of the Empire, can afford to strip away the layers slowly. By the end of the PT, we can be in no doubt as to the Sith's involvement with the Empire, but the fact that Palpatine himself is a Sith Master need not be known until ROTJ. I like the idea of Vader disappearing while still Ben's apprentice and then returning as a Sith Lord, leaving us still wondering about the levels to which the corruption reaches and how much it will take to bring it down.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I like the idea of Vader disappearing while still Ben's apprentice and then returning as a Sith Lord


I actually would've liked to see anakin & ben be great friends who slowly grow apart as their beleifs & ideals about the situation of the galaxy diverge over time. While palpatine would be a key influence in anakin's turn, i think it would've worked really well to actually have the official "turn" be in a final heated arguement with obiwan that devolves into the duel at the top of a volcano. Then, he wouldn't actually become darth vader until he's encased in the suit after being rescued by the emperor. This would also seal his loyalties b/c obiwan would have left him for dead right after the fight that sealed the deal of his turn, while papls came to his rescue. It would also mean he wouldn't kneel before the emperor in some confused, awkward moment, but with total loyalty. That would actually make a cool "chrisening" scene. Right after he's been rescued, the first thing we see him do in his new body armor, would be kneel before his new master & pledge his allegiance. You could really make it a chrisening by having him named Darth Vader in that scene.
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Those are some good ideas, canofhumdingers!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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"I felt a great disturbance in the Force. As if millions of voices cried out in terror... and were suddenly silenced."

Ben feels this event both physically and mentally - with his whole self - by way of the Force. It causes him pain.

This leads me to consider the effect on a Jedi of widespread war, as at the time of the Clone Wars. It would present a constant barrage of emotions and sensations from all sides.

It also leads me to consider how a Jedi would be affected by the taking of a life. If a Jedi strikes a living opponent (i.e. not a droid) down in battle, wouldn't that provide the same sensation? Perhaps not as overwhelming but possibly sharper due to being at the centre of the disturbance.

Jedi only use the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack. Perhaps it's not just a principle. Perhaps it is also because the consequences are felt by the Jedi through the Force. Fear, pain, anger can all be felt, they are experienced through the Force.

Any thoughts, people?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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That's how I always felt about Ben's reaction. That life is precious, but I don't think that taking of a life (in the interest of good) should in anyway inhibit a Jedi from action. I know that's not what you're saying, but that's what that could lead to. Jedi, for me, are made for action and shouldn't be resorted to a complete 'do nothing' just because he feels pain everytime he strikes an enemy down. I think Ben only felt that pain because it was a massive number of people, but when it's just one or two at time, it shouldn't be extreme. If it's a loved one, and it has more emotional impact, then maybe it'd be more sharper, which is why an emotional connection would be discouraged?

Although, I really wish that hadn't been established in the PT, that making connections should be discouraged. Really didn't work for me.
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Originally posted by: Dug
That's how I always felt about Ben's reaction. That life is precious, but I don't think that taking of a life (in the interest of good) should in anyway inhibit a Jedi from action. I know that's not what you're saying, but that's what that could lead to. Jedi, for me, are made for action and shouldn't be resorted to a complete 'do nothing' just because he feels pain everytime he strikes an enemy down. I think Ben only felt that pain because it was a massive number of people, but when it's just one or two at time, it shouldn't be extreme. If it's a loved one, and it has more emotional impact, then maybe it'd be more sharper, which is why an emotional connection would be discouraged?

Although, I really wish that hadn't been established in the PT, that making connections should be discouraged. Really didn't work for me.


I also tend to believe that Jedi's put theirselves in the right "mindset" for battle. Putting themselves in a mindset that would tend to "turn off" or soften their emotional connection to the force in regards to others.

If the Jedi is not on his guard and all of a sudden a planet explodes, yeah I can see it.
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Originally posted by: Dug
... I don't think that taking of a life (in the interest of good) should in anyway inhibit a Jedi from action. I know that's not what you're saying, but that's what that could lead to.
This is true. It leads me to think that maybe it could be an interesting factor to introduce into Vader's training. If Ben started training him at about the same age as Luke in ESB and he couldn't handle it. With the wars going on all around him, maybe he couldn't stand it. Maybe he struggled to control his emotions. Maybe it lead him to desire the end of conflict at any cost.

Any thoughts on that?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I have a thought. If wars and such do cause strife for a Jedi, it would be a good incentive for them to prevent it, which makes me wish the Jedi were a little more proactive in the PT rather than sit on their asses until everything falls around their ears. Interesting thoughts, Aural.
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Originally posted by: Wookie Wedgie
... which makes me wish the Jedi were a little more proactive in the PT rather than sit on their asses until everything falls around their ears.
Too true, sir, too true!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Well, long time, no post!

Haven't really thought too much about this for a while but coming back to it now.

Re. universe-shrinking: maybe each episode should involve characters totally unrelated or partially related to the characters in the other episodes? Move the whole idea away from '...from the adventures of Luke Skywalker'?
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: CO
I always thought that Lucas could have played the PT as a real backstory, narrated by Luke Skywalker (Mark Hammil) as he tells the events of the PT to his son post ROTJ.

The problem with the PT is it just doesn't work in order 1-6 for so many reasons. The focus on Anakin for the first three movies is gone by Episode IV. The special effects are SOOO different in both trilogies, and the whole tone of each trilogy doesn't jive as one continuous story.

Lucas could start TPM with Luke talking to his son some 20 years after ROTJ as an 'Obiwan' type role. It could flashback to him throughout the trilogy as he explains certain key plot points that Lucas is trying to convey, such as why Anakin chose to be Darth Vader. How fuckin cool would it have been for Mark Hammill to say, "And now this is the point where your grandfather was lost to the darkside!"


I agree, and I think that would have been a good idea- having Mark Hamill being part of it again. Mark Hamill said years ago that he had agreed to appear in one of the prequels, if GL decided to make all nine of them, and he said that he would probably appear on another plane of existance (in ghost form, I gather) in episodes 7-9. But, if he had appeared as you suggested, that would have kept the order of the movies with SW as the first and ROTS as the last, which I agree works better.

I'm sure MH would have loved being asked to participate. I get the feeling now that he's a bit miffed at GL for various reasons, as he seems to be distancing himself from all things SW recently.

I also still think that a great opportunity was missed to deepen the relationship between Anakin, Ben & Padme, by not having Anakin and Ben both in love with Padme. If Padme had chosen Anakin over Ben, she would have more dramatically chosen the path that leads to her death. It would also explain more deeply the affection Ben had for Luke and Leia, being Padme's children.

But then, there were so many missed opportunities with the PT. Too many to count really.



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Maybe the PT could follow much more recent events. The struggles of the Rebellion against the Empire. Nothing from the pre-Empire period. Forget about it being a backstory of Anakin or Obi-Wan or Luke. It would work really well with Star Wars '77 if episode IV is still the first time we meet Luke, Ben, Owen, Beru, etc.

Hey, I think this idea is a goer! Up until now, I was playing with 30 year gaps between the trilogies but what if the 9 episodes play out over a much shorter time span? Throw out the trilogy of trilogies? Nine episodes following the Rebel Alliance up until the overthrow of Palpatine. Leave the Clone Wars, the Old Republic, the Jedi all glorious mysteries, as they were in 1977!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: Luke_Skywalker77
Full-on penetration.
Yeah, I'd watch it again if it had that.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Maybe the PT could follow much more recent events. The struggles of the Rebellion against the Empire. Nothing from the pre-Empire period. Forget about it being a backstory of Anakin or Obi-Wan or Luke. It would work really well with Star Wars '77 if episode IV is still the first time we meet Luke, Ben, Owen, Beru, etc.

Hey, I think this idea is a goer! Up until now, I was playing with 30 year gaps between the trilogies but what if the 9 episodes play out over a much shorter time span? Throw out the trilogy of trilogies? Nine episodes following the Rebel Alliance up until the overthrow of Palpatine. Leave the Clone Wars, the Old Republic, the Jedi all glorious mysteries, as they were in 1977!


That sounds cool, and would allow the readers to get to know the characters and the rebellion better, because the story would have more time to develop them.


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Thanks, Marvolo!

I was struck when reading ADF's Star Wars novelisation that characters like Red Leader and Gold Five (okay, so the colours and numbers are different in the book) are clearly veteran pilots and mainstays of the Alliance's teams of fighter pilots. I would love to see more of them. Biggs and Wedge could be introduced in earlier episodes and characters like Mon Mothma, General Nadine, Admiral Ackbar and General Rieekan could all crop up. Also Bail Organa could be seen and Episode III could see him giving his young daughter her first assignment for the Alliance!

As I've said previously, I like the idea of Leia stepping into her father's shoes as one of the leaders of the Alliance following his death on Alderaan and BY. I imagine the other leaders being concerned by her youth and inexperience and send her to Hoth with Rieekan to see how she does. This leads to her desperation to impress with her leadership skills and her bitter disappointment when the base is discovered, attacked & lost. I think this is why Leia is so angry in ESB. It doesn't help that she's stuck on a small freighter on the run from the Imperial Starfleet with a wookie, a camp, shrill droid and a scoundrel that she finds irresistable, despite herself.

It occurs to me that it may be Bail Organa who is most convinced that the Return Of The Jedi is necessary to the Alliance's cause. He could be the one who tries to trace the last remnants of the order and discovers that his old ally, Obi-Wan Kenobi is holed up on Tatooine. Maybe the rest of the Alliance's leaders are less convinced that (a) there are any Jedi left anyway and (b) they would be any great help. Maybe they think Bail is obsessing over something peripheral when there are greater tasks to be addressed.

Little do any of them know that Obi-Wan is watching over a very special farm-boy on Tatooine who just happens to be the son of the legendary Anakin Skywalker....
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I ahve always like the idea of Vader and Anikan in fact being two different people. Maybe the big revolation could be something like this:


"Obi-Wan is staggering at the edge of a railing having been beaten back by the powerful Vader. He looks into the eyes of the black Sith warrior's mask and solemly says " What have you become? You were once Anikan Skywalker, the proud and courageous Jedi. You were once my friend. Please come back to the light." Vader leans in and runs him through with his crimson blade, and quietly states in a mocking tone.
"You fool, I destroyed your apprentice. I offered him mercy if he would but join me. He said no, so I took the power and life he would not use." Obi-wan stares at Vader not knowing how to react. All he thought he knew was a lie. Vader was not Anikan, who could be turned back to the light and over throw the emperor, he was just a monster. A monster who could not be stopped. Unless, unless, yes he could do it, but where to find him? Only the force knew. So trusting the force Obi-Wan smiled, and slowly said. You may not fall by my swored Vader, but you will fall by a sword stronger than evn you or your masters. You will stare into the eyes of the very force you have for so long tried to crush. The light always wins. And with that Obi-Wan lets the life leave his body and he plungs over the railing and into oblivian.

Obviously it needs some work but it is just an idea.


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I see where you're going with that. I, too, like the idea of returning to Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker being seperate people. I like the way you incorporated Obi-Wan being convinced that they were one and the same, as well. Nicely done...
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
I see where you're going with that. I, too, like the idea of returning to Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker being seperate people. I like the way you incorporated Obi-Wan being convinced that they were one and the same, as well. Nicely done...


How do you explain Luke's ability to turn him back if he's not Anakin Skywalker? I would have been interested for Lucas to go down this path, but it seems to me no way to do it in light of the OT. This was something that was already set in stone before the PT was a dollar sign in McCallum's eyes.
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It would require tweaking ESB and ROTJ to fit. The idea is that a new 9 episode saga is created around Star Wars '77 alone.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: kmcherry
Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
I see where you're going with that. I, too, like the idea of returning to Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker being seperate people. I like the way you incorporated Obi-Wan being convinced that they were one and the same, as well. Nicely done...


How do you explain Luke's ability to turn him back if he's not Anakin Skywalker? I would have been interested for Lucas to go down this path, but it seems to me no way to do it in light of the OT. This was something that was already set in stone before the PT was a dollar sign in McCallum's eyes.


But as auraloffalwaffle said above in Star Wars '77 Vader had no connection with Anikan. So Luke would not need to turn Vader back to the light side. Maybe Anikan's force ghost could help defend Luke against the emperor like Obi-Wan did in the early ROTJ scripts. Or how about the Emperor has no force powers? He is just a strong powerful political figure who has used the sith to rise to power. The emperor was never even shown having any connections until he lit Luke's world with his lightnning. Plus, this would strengthen the idea that he uses whoever and whatever he can to get what he wants. Also, can the Jedi be returned to their mystical warrior selves and away from the super heroes they are in the PT? Jedi should not need a ligtsaber as they become more powerful withe force, because they become more passive and defensive and less aggressive and offensive.


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Originally posted by: Marvolo
Also, can the Jedi be returned to their mystical warrior selves and away from the super heroes they are in the PT? Jedi should not need a ligtsaber as they become more powerful withe force, because they become more passive and defensive and less aggressive and offensive.
I'm with you 100% on this! That's what made the Emperor so much more dangerous than Vader at the end of ROTJ. He could floor Luke without going anywhere near him and he hardly broke a sweat!

I'd like to extend the saga to 9 episodes, so that Palpatine is not defeated in ROTJ and lasts until episode 9. Over the final three episodes I would like to see Luke seek out the last few Jedi in the galaxy and found a new secret temple to start rebuilding the Jedi order. Episode 9 would see the showdown between Palpatine and the last of the Sith and the new Jedi Order. Bail Organa is vindicated, as the Jedi are the decisive factor in overthrowing Palpatine and his regime.

I had an idea that the spirits of past Jedi (I don't hold with it being something that started only a few years ago with Qui-Gon, as Luca$h's PT has it) join with the new Jedi Order in defeating the Sith. The way I imagine it, the spirits are something the Sith don't know about and this unforseen power tips the balance against the Sith.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle
Originally posted by: Marvolo
Also, can the Jedi be returned to their mystical warrior selves and away from the super heroes they are in the PT? Jedi should not need a ligtsaber as they become more powerful withe force, because they become more passive and defensive and less aggressive and offensive.
I'm with you 100% on this! That's what made the Emperor so much more dangerous than Vader at the end of ROTJ. He could floor Luke without going anywhere near him and he hardly broke a sweat!

I'd like to extend the saga to 9 episodes, so that Palpatine is not defeated in ROTJ and lasts until episode 9. Over the final three episodes I would like to see Luke seek out the last few Jedi in the galaxy and found a new secret temple to start rebuilding the Jedi order. Episode 9 would see the showdown between Palpatine and the last of the Sith and the new Jedi Order. Bail Organa is vindicated, as the Jedi are the decisive factor in overthrowing Palpatine and his regime.

I had an idea that the spirits of past Jedi (I don't hold with it being something that started only a few years ago with Qui-Gon, as Luca$h's PT has it) join with the new Jedi Order in defeating the Sith. The way I imagine it, the spirits are something the Sith don't know about and this unforseen power tips the balance against the Sith.


About the Jedi Spirit tipping the balance, it could be like in Return of the King, just as the orcs are about to win the battle of Minas Tirith the army of the dead shows up and kick the orcs butts. Except this would be between the Jedi and Sith.

The sith have beaten the Jedi back and only a few remain. They are all lined up against their enemies ready to face their deaths proud and honorable in true Jedi fashion, and the emperor stairs on with a mad gleam on his face. He thinks he has finally won. He says mockingly
"It would appear, my foolish Jedi, that the light does not always win." He begins to laugh, and then all the Jedi spirits from ages past and recent appear standing at attention. The emperor's laugh stops, the Sith's courage waver, and the Jedi defeat them and the emperor.


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" it could be like in Return of the King, just as the orcs are about to win the battle of Minas Tirith the army of the dead shows up and kick the orcs butts."

That sucked in Lord of the Rings, and it'd suck in Star Wars.
VADER: Let me look on you with my own eyes...

LUKE: Dad, where are your eyebrows?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO_S6UgkQk0