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Unpopular Opinion Thread — Page 11

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 (Edited)

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

I like you too. I definitely plan to keep checking back and posting regularly. It’s good to talk this stuff out with people in a place that doesn’t feel like an echo chamber.

That’s really interesting to know about the 2001 books. I had never heard before about him saying that. That’s a great way to explore alternative stories branching from a single point of origin, and I would love to see Star Wars do something similar to that. I like to view the unaltered OT as existing in its own bubble of canon, while the Special Editions and the Prequels and Sequels are all off in a different timeline, essentially.

SW77 is partly my favorite because of how well it stands on its own. The franchise could have ended after one movie and it would still be considered one of the great science fantasy classics.

The issue I have with the ST is that they got the original staring actors back. It makes it tough to see them like that, you know? The PT did not have them so it is easier to dismiss.

Yeah, I know what you mean. They really wanted to give the ST this outward sense of legitimacy by bringing everybody back. It felt like the old gang was coming back together. Lucasfilm had one chance to reunite them and give them a worthy sendoff. They couldn’t afford to just “wing it” with the plot or settle for a mediocre story. If you’re going to continue the stories of those beloved characters post-RotJ, it had better be respectful to those characters, and it had better be worth people’s time. And I don’t think it was.

Michael Arndt struggled with the TFA script because it kept morphing into being about Luke! Disney did not want that - there was almost certainly a mandate to introduce new characters (especially a female protagonist) that younger people could “identify” with.

This is a classic case of a corporation underestimating it’s audience. You really think that a trailer featuring Luke, Han, Leia (even old) kicking ass and taking names would make younger people not want to see a NEW Star Wars? Luke Skywalker is cool because he has a lightsaber. Toy sales reflect this; the kids don’t want Rey and Finn toys.

The way I see it, if you write new characters that are compelling enough, then you wouldn’t have to worry about the OT characters overshadowing them. If the OT heroes keep having the spotlight gravitate back towards them in your script, then maybe that’s a sign you need to improve your new characters. It’s not that hard to have the audience care about new people while still getting a thrill out of seeing the old cast back in action. Just have Luke be a Dumbledore or Gandalf-like figure to a new generation of Jedi. It’s not that hard.

Author
Time

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

I like you too. I definitely plan to keep checking back and posting regularly. It’s good to talk this stuff out with people in a place that doesn’t feel like an echo chamber.

That’s really interesting to know about the 2001 books. I had never heard before about him saying that. That’s a great way to explore alternative stories branching from a single point of origin, and I would love to see Star Wars do something similar to that. I like to view the unaltered OT as existing in its own bubble of canon, while the Special Editions and the Prequels and Sequels are all off in a different timeline, essentially.

SW77 is partly my favorite because of how well it stands on its own. The franchise could have ended after one movie and it would still be considered one of the great science fantasy classics.

The issue I have with the ST is that they got the original staring actors back. It makes it tough to see them like that, you know? The PT did not have them so it is easier to dismiss.

Yeah, I know what you mean. They really wanted to give the ST this outward sense of legitimacy by bringing everybody back. It felt like the old gang was coming back together. Lucasfilm had one chance to reunite them and give them a worthy sendoff. They couldn’t afford to just “wing it” with the plot or settle for a mediocre story. If you’re going to continue the stories of those beloved characters post-RotJ, it had better be respectful to those characters, and it had better be worth people’s time. And I don’t think it was.

Michael Arndt struggled with the TFA script because it kept morphing into being about Luke! Disney did not want that - there was almost certainly a mandate to introduce new characters (especially a female protagonist) that younger people could “identify” with.

This is a classic case of a corporation underestimating it’s audience. You really think that a trailer featuring Luke, Han, Leia (even old) kicking ass and taking names would make younger people not want to see a NEW Star Wars? Luke Skywalker is cool because he has a lightsaber. Toy sales reflect this; the kids don’t want Rey and Finn toys.

The way I see it, if you write new characters that are compelling enough, then you wouldn’t have to worry about the OT characters overshadowing them. If the OT heroes keep having the spotlight gravitate back towards them in your script, then maybe that’s a sign you need to improve your new characters. It’s not that hard to have the audience care about new people while still getting a thrill out of seeing the old cast back in action. Just have Luke be a Dumbledore or Gandalf-like figure to a new generation of Jedi. It’s not that hard.

Agreed. Instead they just settled on rehashing the OT with Rey as Luke. So who cares? Been there. Done that. Now your main protagonist is the least interesting character. Oops.

Having Finn as the protagonist would have been much more interesting.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

Author
Time

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

I like you too. I definitely plan to keep checking back and posting regularly. It’s good to talk this stuff out with people in a place that doesn’t feel like an echo chamber.

That’s really interesting to know about the 2001 books. I had never heard before about him saying that. That’s a great way to explore alternative stories branching from a single point of origin, and I would love to see Star Wars do something similar to that. I like to view the unaltered OT as existing in its own bubble of canon, while the Special Editions and the Prequels and Sequels are all off in a different timeline, essentially.

SW77 is partly my favorite because of how well it stands on its own. The franchise could have ended after one movie and it would still be considered one of the great science fantasy classics.

The issue I have with the ST is that they got the original staring actors back. It makes it tough to see them like that, you know? The PT did not have them so it is easier to dismiss.

Yeah, I know what you mean. They really wanted to give the ST this outward sense of legitimacy by bringing everybody back. It felt like the old gang was coming back together. Lucasfilm had one chance to reunite them and give them a worthy sendoff. They couldn’t afford to just “wing it” with the plot or settle for a mediocre story. If you’re going to continue the stories of those beloved characters post-RotJ, it had better be respectful to those characters, and it had better be worth people’s time. And I don’t think it was.

Michael Arndt struggled with the TFA script because it kept morphing into being about Luke! Disney did not want that - there was almost certainly a mandate to introduce new characters (especially a female protagonist) that younger people could “identify” with.

This is a classic case of a corporation underestimating it’s audience. You really think that a trailer featuring Luke, Han, Leia (even old) kicking ass and taking names would make younger people not want to see a NEW Star Wars? Luke Skywalker is cool because he has a lightsaber. Toy sales reflect this; the kids don’t want Rey and Finn toys.

The way I see it, if you write new characters that are compelling enough, then you wouldn’t have to worry about the OT characters overshadowing them. If the OT heroes keep having the spotlight gravitate back towards them in your script, then maybe that’s a sign you need to improve your new characters. It’s not that hard to have the audience care about new people while still getting a thrill out of seeing the old cast back in action. Just have Luke be a Dumbledore or Gandalf-like figure to a new generation of Jedi. It’s not that hard.

Agreed. Instead they just settled on rehashing the OT with Rey as Luke. So who cares? Been there. Done that. Now your main protagonist is the least interesting character. Oops.

Having Finn as the protagonist would have been much more interesting.

Absolutely. Finn was by far my favorite character in TFA. It’s a shame what they did to John Boyega. His character had so much potential. Plus, who better to fit the message of “Heroes can come from anywhere” than a former Stormtrooper?

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imperialscum said:

SparkySywer said:

JadedSkywalker said:

Its his story and its in no way collaborative. The stories are his and very personal.

Star Wars is my go to example I use when I want to talk about how movies are a collaborative art form, because of how much the Original Trilogy is not just George Lucas’s work.

The other people who worked on the OT didn’t just help Lucas realize his vision, they created part of the vision themselves. It’s not just that Star Wars would have failed without them, Star Wars just wouldn’t have been Star Wars without Ralph McQuarrie, or Marcia Lucas, or Gary Kurtz, I could keep going.

Hell, if you look at what happened behind the scenes of the Empire Strikes Back, it’s clearly not just George Lucas’s movie. While Lucas was working on Raiders of the Lost Ark, Irvin Kershner shot the movie in such a way that Kershner’s vision would be the most prevailing in the final cut. Often there was only one or two (usable) takes, and when there were more, there was not that much variation in them. Lucas was essentially unable to make his own movie out of ESB.

This is also why Richard Marquand was hired for RotJ. Marquand was a weaker, much less experienced director, but he wouldn’t have the balls to do what Kershner did. He also micromanaged a lot more with RotJ, as opposed to Empire, where he rarely even showed up on set.

The only way you can look at Empire and say it wasn’t a collaborative project, is if you’re being cheeky and making some comment on how adversarial Kershner and Lucas’s relationship got toward the end.

This is ultimately why I like new Star Wars much better than the prequels. The prequels are what happens when you take everyone but Lucas out of Star Wars. John Williams is the only person (besides Lucas) I can think of off the top of my head who was there for both the OT and PT, but even his input was severely neutered, especially in 2 and 3, although that’s a long story all on its own.

For better or worse, Star Wars is being made by the fans now. The fans may have wildly different ideas of what Star Wars is, they might even have downright dumb ideas of what Star Wars is, but they have a more holistic view of what Star Wars is.

You should probably read what you actually quoted before you reply.

I did read it smile 😃

Death of the Author

Author
Time

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

I like you too. I definitely plan to keep checking back and posting regularly. It’s good to talk this stuff out with people in a place that doesn’t feel like an echo chamber.

That’s really interesting to know about the 2001 books. I had never heard before about him saying that. That’s a great way to explore alternative stories branching from a single point of origin, and I would love to see Star Wars do something similar to that. I like to view the unaltered OT as existing in its own bubble of canon, while the Special Editions and the Prequels and Sequels are all off in a different timeline, essentially.

SW77 is partly my favorite because of how well it stands on its own. The franchise could have ended after one movie and it would still be considered one of the great science fantasy classics.

The issue I have with the ST is that they got the original staring actors back. It makes it tough to see them like that, you know? The PT did not have them so it is easier to dismiss.

Yeah, I know what you mean. They really wanted to give the ST this outward sense of legitimacy by bringing everybody back. It felt like the old gang was coming back together. Lucasfilm had one chance to reunite them and give them a worthy sendoff. They couldn’t afford to just “wing it” with the plot or settle for a mediocre story. If you’re going to continue the stories of those beloved characters post-RotJ, it had better be respectful to those characters, and it had better be worth people’s time. And I don’t think it was.

Michael Arndt struggled with the TFA script because it kept morphing into being about Luke! Disney did not want that - there was almost certainly a mandate to introduce new characters (especially a female protagonist) that younger people could “identify” with.

This is a classic case of a corporation underestimating it’s audience. You really think that a trailer featuring Luke, Han, Leia (even old) kicking ass and taking names would make younger people not want to see a NEW Star Wars? Luke Skywalker is cool because he has a lightsaber. Toy sales reflect this; the kids don’t want Rey and Finn toys.

The way I see it, if you write new characters that are compelling enough, then you wouldn’t have to worry about the OT characters overshadowing them. If the OT heroes keep having the spotlight gravitate back towards them in your script, then maybe that’s a sign you need to improve your new characters. It’s not that hard to have the audience care about new people while still getting a thrill out of seeing the old cast back in action. Just have Luke be a Dumbledore or Gandalf-like figure to a new generation of Jedi. It’s not that hard.

Agreed. Instead they just settled on rehashing the OT with Rey as Luke. So who cares? Been there. Done that. Now your main protagonist is the least interesting character. Oops.

Having Finn as the protagonist would have been much more interesting.

Absolutely. Finn was by far my favorite character in TFA. It’s a shame what they did to John Boyega. His character had so much potential. Plus, who better to fit the message of “Heroes can come from anywhere” than a former Stormtrooper?

What happened to Boyega?

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

Author
Time

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

I like you too. I definitely plan to keep checking back and posting regularly. It’s good to talk this stuff out with people in a place that doesn’t feel like an echo chamber.

That’s really interesting to know about the 2001 books. I had never heard before about him saying that. That’s a great way to explore alternative stories branching from a single point of origin, and I would love to see Star Wars do something similar to that. I like to view the unaltered OT as existing in its own bubble of canon, while the Special Editions and the Prequels and Sequels are all off in a different timeline, essentially.

SW77 is partly my favorite because of how well it stands on its own. The franchise could have ended after one movie and it would still be considered one of the great science fantasy classics.

The issue I have with the ST is that they got the original staring actors back. It makes it tough to see them like that, you know? The PT did not have them so it is easier to dismiss.

Yeah, I know what you mean. They really wanted to give the ST this outward sense of legitimacy by bringing everybody back. It felt like the old gang was coming back together. Lucasfilm had one chance to reunite them and give them a worthy sendoff. They couldn’t afford to just “wing it” with the plot or settle for a mediocre story. If you’re going to continue the stories of those beloved characters post-RotJ, it had better be respectful to those characters, and it had better be worth people’s time. And I don’t think it was.

Michael Arndt struggled with the TFA script because it kept morphing into being about Luke! Disney did not want that - there was almost certainly a mandate to introduce new characters (especially a female protagonist) that younger people could “identify” with.

This is a classic case of a corporation underestimating it’s audience. You really think that a trailer featuring Luke, Han, Leia (even old) kicking ass and taking names would make younger people not want to see a NEW Star Wars? Luke Skywalker is cool because he has a lightsaber. Toy sales reflect this; the kids don’t want Rey and Finn toys.

The way I see it, if you write new characters that are compelling enough, then you wouldn’t have to worry about the OT characters overshadowing them. If the OT heroes keep having the spotlight gravitate back towards them in your script, then maybe that’s a sign you need to improve your new characters. It’s not that hard to have the audience care about new people while still getting a thrill out of seeing the old cast back in action. Just have Luke be a Dumbledore or Gandalf-like figure to a new generation of Jedi. It’s not that hard.

Agreed. Instead they just settled on rehashing the OT with Rey as Luke. So who cares? Been there. Done that. Now your main protagonist is the least interesting character. Oops.

Having Finn as the protagonist would have been much more interesting.

Absolutely. Finn was by far my favorite character in TFA. It’s a shame what they did to John Boyega. His character had so much potential. Plus, who better to fit the message of “Heroes can come from anywhere” than a former Stormtrooper?

What happened to Boyega?

I just mean the way they deliberately sidelined his character, in later drafts of TFA as well as in the next two sequels, after JJ initially cast him to be the male lead. There’s a great video that goes into detail about it by this guy called Okiro. The video’s called “Finn, the Lost Protagonist.”

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Time

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

I like you too. I definitely plan to keep checking back and posting regularly. It’s good to talk this stuff out with people in a place that doesn’t feel like an echo chamber.

That’s really interesting to know about the 2001 books. I had never heard before about him saying that. That’s a great way to explore alternative stories branching from a single point of origin, and I would love to see Star Wars do something similar to that. I like to view the unaltered OT as existing in its own bubble of canon, while the Special Editions and the Prequels and Sequels are all off in a different timeline, essentially.

SW77 is partly my favorite because of how well it stands on its own. The franchise could have ended after one movie and it would still be considered one of the great science fantasy classics.

The issue I have with the ST is that they got the original staring actors back. It makes it tough to see them like that, you know? The PT did not have them so it is easier to dismiss.

Yeah, I know what you mean. They really wanted to give the ST this outward sense of legitimacy by bringing everybody back. It felt like the old gang was coming back together. Lucasfilm had one chance to reunite them and give them a worthy sendoff. They couldn’t afford to just “wing it” with the plot or settle for a mediocre story. If you’re going to continue the stories of those beloved characters post-RotJ, it had better be respectful to those characters, and it had better be worth people’s time. And I don’t think it was.

Michael Arndt struggled with the TFA script because it kept morphing into being about Luke! Disney did not want that - there was almost certainly a mandate to introduce new characters (especially a female protagonist) that younger people could “identify” with.

This is a classic case of a corporation underestimating it’s audience. You really think that a trailer featuring Luke, Han, Leia (even old) kicking ass and taking names would make younger people not want to see a NEW Star Wars? Luke Skywalker is cool because he has a lightsaber. Toy sales reflect this; the kids don’t want Rey and Finn toys.

The way I see it, if you write new characters that are compelling enough, then you wouldn’t have to worry about the OT characters overshadowing them. If the OT heroes keep having the spotlight gravitate back towards them in your script, then maybe that’s a sign you need to improve your new characters. It’s not that hard to have the audience care about new people while still getting a thrill out of seeing the old cast back in action. Just have Luke be a Dumbledore or Gandalf-like figure to a new generation of Jedi. It’s not that hard.

Agreed. Instead they just settled on rehashing the OT with Rey as Luke. So who cares? Been there. Done that. Now your main protagonist is the least interesting character. Oops.

Having Finn as the protagonist would have been much more interesting.

Absolutely. Finn was by far my favorite character in TFA. It’s a shame what they did to John Boyega. His character had so much potential. Plus, who better to fit the message of “Heroes can come from anywhere” than a former Stormtrooper?

What happened to Boyega?

I just mean the way they deliberately sidelined his character, in later drafts of TFA as well as in the next two sequels, after JJ initially cast him to be the male lead. There’s a great video that goes into detail about it by this guy called Okiro. The video’s called “Finn, the Lost Protagonist.”

Yeah, he certainly seemed to be poised as Rey’s love interest at the end of TFA. Then they just dropped that whole angle in TLJ and tried to (sort of) put it back in ROS…but not really

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Time
 (Edited)

Also, I find it really messed up that TLJ has Rey falling for the man who just put her best friend in a coma and slashed his spine. As far as Rey knows, Finn might still be in that coma, and she’s getting cozy with his attacker and lifelong oppressor without ever even bringing that up.

I’ll have to stop for now, but it was good talking with you.

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That was Rey being the new Luke, being the only one who thought Kylo could be redeemed.

Like Luke was the only one who believed Anakin could return from the darkside.

Rey was right by the way they won the war because Ben Solo was redeemed. He saved her from dying and traded his own life.

I guess you could complain they just recycled episodes IV-VI and the Disney movies offered nothing new.

Ben turning to the light restored the Balance.

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 (Edited)

JadedSkywalker said:

That was Rey being the new Luke, being the only one who thought Kylo could be redeemed.

Like Luke was the only one who believed Anakin could return from the darkside.

Rey was right by the way they won the war because Ben Solo was redeemed. He saved her from dying and traded his own life.

I guess you could complain they just recycled episodes IV-VI and the Disney movies offered nothing new.

Ben turning to the light restored the Balance.

Except Rey has only known Kylo for a few days. Vader was Luke’s father, and Luke knew Vader had once been that great Jedi and friend Obi-Wan told him about. Rey and Kylo have basically only just met, and the fact that her feelings toward him go from seething hatred to seemingly having feelings for him to the point that she’s willing to basically ship herself in a box to the First Order flagship to try to redeem some awful man she recently met is stretching my belief.

Simply, Rey is not Luke, despite the films treating her like she is, and I honestly think it’s a reductive treatment of her character. She has a different personality, different goals, and different relationships. Given the circumstances, Luke’s behavior towards Vader in RotJ is believable. Rey’s behavior towards Kylo is not.

Also, the fact that Luke saw no hope for redemption in his nephew, despite Kylo being much more openly conflicted than Vader, is not something I can believe. Neither is Luke trolling his nephew and deliberately trying to get a rise out of him rather than earnestly trying to talk him down.

I should stop.

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Servii said:

Simply, Rey is not Luke, despite the films treating her like she is, and I honestly think it’s a reductive treatment of her character. She has a different personality, different goals, and different relationships.

Evening Servii.

Luke is the farmboy from Kansas, raised with the good simple virtues of the farmer. Rey is a scavenger in a much more harsh “dog eat dog” world. The obvious way to make Rey different is to show her as a much more hardened, cynical character as a result (more Han, less Luke). Disney probably worried this portrayal would not make her likable. It didn’t hurt to make Tony Stark a bit of an asshole in Iron Man…but I digress.

The point is Rey should have been far more tempted to the Dark Side then Luke because of the environment she was raised in. Come to think of it, in SW77, Luke is pretty much a golden boy. We never get a sense that he could ever be “seduced” by the darkside. We are told in the later films of the dangers, but I honestly never felt there was real tension in ESB or ROTJ that Luke would turn evil, at least until Vader threatened Leia right at the end of the Trilogy.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

Author
Time
 (Edited)

How’s it going, theprequelsrule.

In a way, Luke is like the Clark Kent of Star Wars. He’s a paragon of virtue with a humble upbringing. Rey definitely had the potential to be a darker, more interesting character, since her backstory gave her basically the perfect recipe for the Dark Side. Someone with incredible Force potential and unwieldy power, abandoned by her parents, having no friends or family to fall back on, stuck on an impoverished planet all but abandoned by the Republic. She’s worse off than even Anakin was. Both Rey and Finn have troubled backstories that should drastically shape their personalities and worldviews, but they just act ordinary.

As for Luke’s risk of turning, I’d keep in mind that the criteria for falling to the Dark Side in the OT seemed much quicker and easier than it was in the prequels. According to Palpatine, all it would have taken for Luke to fall was just one act of murder, even killing someone who deserved to die, and the Dark would have consumed him. (So going by the OT’s rules, Anakin should have turned right after he murdered a whole village.) Being a Force user seemed like a much more difficult balancing act that an emotional young man like Luke could easily fail at.

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 (Edited)

Servii said:

How’s it going, theprequelsrule.

In a way, Luke is like the Clark Kent of Star Wars. He’s a paragon of virtue with a humble upbringing. Rey definitely had the potential to be a darker, more interesting character, since her backstory gave her basically the perfect recipe for the Dark Side. Someone with incredible Force potential and unwieldy power, abandoned by her parents, having no friends or family to fall back on, stuck on an impoverished planet all but abandoned by the Republic. She’s worse off than even Anakin was. Both Rey and Finn have troubled backstories that should drastically shape their personalities and worldviews, but they just act ordinary.

As for Luke’s risk of turning, I’d keep in mind that the criteria for falling to the Dark Side in the OT seemed much quicker and easier than it was in the prequels. According to Palpatine, all it would have taken for Luke to fall was just one act of murder, even killing someone who deserved to die, and the Dark would have consumed him. (So going by the OT’s rules, Anakin should have turned right after he murdered a whole village.) Being a Force user seemed like a much more difficult balancing act that an emotional young man like Luke could easily fail at.

Its going okay Servii! The point I was trying to make is that although we are told about how seductive the Darkside is, we are never really shown it. So it is sort of a failure, for me at least, to set up some sort of tension that Luke might become a bad guy. I never felt that way, even once, about Luke. The prequels could have shown us this - so that younger people who maybe saw the PT first would have the same worry about Luke. Am I being clear about what I mean?

I like your comparison of Luke with Clark Kent. Never made that connection before

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

Author
Time
 (Edited)

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

How’s it going, theprequelsrule.

In a way, Luke is like the Clark Kent of Star Wars. He’s a paragon of virtue with a humble upbringing. Rey definitely had the potential to be a darker, more interesting character, since her backstory gave her basically the perfect recipe for the Dark Side. Someone with incredible Force potential and unwieldy power, abandoned by her parents, having no friends or family to fall back on, stuck on an impoverished planet all but abandoned by the Republic. She’s worse off than even Anakin was. Both Rey and Finn have troubled backstories that should drastically shape their personalities and worldviews, but they just act ordinary.

As for Luke’s risk of turning, I’d keep in mind that the criteria for falling to the Dark Side in the OT seemed much quicker and easier than it was in the prequels. According to Palpatine, all it would have taken for Luke to fall was just one act of murder, even killing someone who deserved to die, and the Dark would have consumed him. (So going by the OT’s rules, Anakin should have turned right after he murdered a whole village.) Being a Force user seemed like a much more difficult balancing act that an emotional young man like Luke could easily fail at.

Its going okay Servii! The point I was trying to make is that although we are told about how seductive the Darkside is, we are never really shown it. So it is sort of a failure, for me at least, to set up some sort of tension that Luke might become a bad guy. I never felt that way, even once, about Luke. The prequels could have shown us this - so that younger people who maybe saw the PT first would have the same worry about Luke. Am I being clear about what I mean?

Yeah, I get what you mean. Watching RotJ as a kid, I did genuinely feel scared that Luke might turn because of what Palpatine was saying to him, but watching as an adult, he really seems like the least likely character to actually fall. The only thing he has going against him are his attachments to his friends, but besides maybe his choking Jabba’s guards, there’s no real dark streak to him. He was always upstanding. And I love Luke for that, but it makes the danger of him falling more difficult to take seriously. That, and we really never got to see the Dark side’s corruption at work in any major way.

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 (Edited)

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

How’s it going, theprequelsrule.

In a way, Luke is like the Clark Kent of Star Wars. He’s a paragon of virtue with a humble upbringing. Rey definitely had the potential to be a darker, more interesting character, since her backstory gave her basically the perfect recipe for the Dark Side. Someone with incredible Force potential and unwieldy power, abandoned by her parents, having no friends or family to fall back on, stuck on an impoverished planet all but abandoned by the Republic. She’s worse off than even Anakin was. Both Rey and Finn have troubled backstories that should drastically shape their personalities and worldviews, but they just act ordinary.

As for Luke’s risk of turning, I’d keep in mind that the criteria for falling to the Dark Side in the OT seemed much quicker and easier than it was in the prequels. According to Palpatine, all it would have taken for Luke to fall was just one act of murder, even killing someone who deserved to die, and the Dark would have consumed him. (So going by the OT’s rules, Anakin should have turned right after he murdered a whole village.) Being a Force user seemed like a much more difficult balancing act that an emotional young man like Luke could easily fail at.

Its going okay Servii! The point I was trying to make is that although we are told about how seductive the Darkside is, we are never really shown it. So it is sort of a failure, for me at least, to set up some sort of tension that Luke might become a bad guy. I never felt that way, even once, about Luke. The prequels could have shown us this - so that younger people who maybe saw the PT first would have the same worry about Luke. Am I being clear about what I mean?

Yeah, I get what you mean. Watching RotJ as a kid, I did genuinely feel scared that Luke might turn because of what Palpatine was saying to him, but watching as an adult, he really seems like the least likely character to actually fall. The only thing he has going against him are his attachments to his friends, but besides maybe his choking Jabba’s guards, there’s no real dark streak to him. He was always upstanding. And I love Luke for that, but it makes the danger of him falling more difficult to take seriously. That, and we really never got to see the Dark side’s corruption at work in any major way.

I always thought “Force Choke” was a neutral battle technique - like using a lightsaber, or “Force Push”. It was only in the 90s that it became a “darkside power”. Timothy Zahn did this I believe - and he also put the “Jedi Mind Trick” into the darkside arsenal too! The video games, and obviously the ST, made that one a neutral power again

Nerdgasm!!!

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Yeah, I suppose it could have just been a quick way to quietly subdue the guards. Perhaps there was no intent there to hint at the Dark Side for Luke. It’s just a moment that made me raise an eyebrow a bit.

It’s weird to have Mind Tricks as a Dark Side power, though. I figured the Dark Side equivalent of it would be something like the Imperius curse from Harry Potter: invading someone’s mind and taking away their free will completely.

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I mean Luke did pull a gun on Jabba and then say ‘this is the last mistake you’ll ever make’. It’s brief but there’s enough darkness for the spirit of the story as a whole.

Yub Nub for life

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The early marketing kind of implied that Luke might go to the dark side , first, in the title ,Revenge Of The Jedi ,before it was changed , then in the first trailers where we see him all dressed in black , like Vader . Plus one of those trailers had a shot of Luke and Vader side by side in the elevator .You could not see any binders on Luke’s hands in that shot . And at that point , it was not confirmed that Vader was his father . As a kid in 1980 , I didn’t believe it and thought Vader was lying .The truth came as a shock to me , but the blow was lessened due to a friend of mine letting me read his Marvel Super Special adaptation of Return Of The Jedi ,which actually came out a few weeks before the movie .

https://screamsinthevoid.deviantart.com/

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theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

Simply, Rey is not Luke, despite the films treating her like she is, and I honestly think it’s a reductive treatment of her character. She has a different personality, different goals, and different relationships.

The point is Rey should have been far more tempted to the Dark Side then Luke because of the environment she was raised in.

I disagree with the notion that people raised in bad environments are led into having questionable morals, and I really like that in the ST (or at least, TFA and TLJ), Rey was screwed over by the world, had parents who abandoned her, and lived a shitty life, but still had a moral compass that pointed north. Kylo had it made, and had parents who loved him, but he still turned to the dark side.

Death of the Author

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Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

theprequelsrule said:

Servii said:

I like you too. I definitely plan to keep checking back and posting regularly. It’s good to talk this stuff out with people in a place that doesn’t feel like an echo chamber.

That’s really interesting to know about the 2001 books. I had never heard before about him saying that. That’s a great way to explore alternative stories branching from a single point of origin, and I would love to see Star Wars do something similar to that. I like to view the unaltered OT as existing in its own bubble of canon, while the Special Editions and the Prequels and Sequels are all off in a different timeline, essentially.

SW77 is partly my favorite because of how well it stands on its own. The franchise could have ended after one movie and it would still be considered one of the great science fantasy classics.

The issue I have with the ST is that they got the original staring actors back. It makes it tough to see them like that, you know? The PT did not have them so it is easier to dismiss.

Yeah, I know what you mean. They really wanted to give the ST this outward sense of legitimacy by bringing everybody back. It felt like the old gang was coming back together. Lucasfilm had one chance to reunite them and give them a worthy sendoff. They couldn’t afford to just “wing it” with the plot or settle for a mediocre story. If you’re going to continue the stories of those beloved characters post-RotJ, it had better be respectful to those characters, and it had better be worth people’s time. And I don’t think it was.

Michael Arndt struggled with the TFA script because it kept morphing into being about Luke! Disney did not want that - there was almost certainly a mandate to introduce new characters (especially a female protagonist) that younger people could “identify” with.

This is a classic case of a corporation underestimating it’s audience. You really think that a trailer featuring Luke, Han, Leia (even old) kicking ass and taking names would make younger people not want to see a NEW Star Wars? Luke Skywalker is cool because he has a lightsaber. Toy sales reflect this; the kids don’t want Rey and Finn toys.

The way I see it, if you write new characters that are compelling enough, then you wouldn’t have to worry about the OT characters overshadowing them. If the OT heroes keep having the spotlight gravitate back towards them in your script, then maybe that’s a sign you need to improve your new characters. It’s not that hard to have the audience care about new people while still getting a thrill out of seeing the old cast back in action. Just have Luke be a Dumbledore or Gandalf-like figure to a new generation of Jedi. It’s not that hard.

Agreed. Instead they just settled on rehashing the OT with Rey as Luke. So who cares? Been there. Done that. Now your main protagonist is the least interesting character. Oops.

Having Finn as the protagonist would have been much more interesting.

Absolutely. Finn was by far my favorite character in TFA. It’s a shame what they did to John Boyega. His character had so much potential. Plus, who better to fit the message of “Heroes can come from anywhere” than a former Stormtrooper?

What happened to Boyega?

I just mean the way they deliberately sidelined his character, in later drafts of TFA as well as in the next two sequels, after JJ initially cast him to be the male lead. There’s a great video that goes into detail about it by this guy called Okiro. The video’s called “Finn, the Lost Protagonist.”

Yeah as I’ve said elsewhere on here before, I think they shoulda stuck to the plan of killing Poe early on in TFA, so that Finn could have more room to breathe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Budu1ux09Rs

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fmalover said:

I suggest a little experiment.

Try watching TLJ after watching the OT, and you’ll find it works pretty well as a coda to the saga.

I’ve posted previously that if it were up to me, I would have started the ST with TLJ or at the very least a movie that bears a strong resemblance to it.

I’ve thought about this as well. Each ST film seems to work best when they’re each viewed as a self-contained coda to the OT (rather than a trilogy themselves), and TLJ especially best fits this angle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Budu1ux09Rs

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I’ve watched opinions on the prequels improve over time. I’ve already seen opinions of TFA and TLJ improve. I feel confident opinions on TRoS will improve as well. In a few years, there will be balance in the Force. Then people can start hating on what comes next. I’ll just continue to enjoy myself all the way.

I’m fortunate to be among the generation to have grown up with Star Wars from the beginning. I can’t tell you how happy that has made me. I love Star Wars. I can love my originals and still embrace the new with no problem. That wasn’t always true, but it’s a mindset worth working toward in my opinion.

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The planet celebration montage added in the RotJ Special Edition is stupid and doesn’t make sense. It wraps up the story too neatly to the point of being unrealistic, while the original version is more open-ended. Palpatine is defeated, but that doesn’t necessarily mean the Empire is. And I always liked the EU version of events where the Empire falls apart due to infighting, but still exists in a fragmented, diminished form in later stories, being just one of many factions at work in the galaxy. That feels like a more realistic progression than that whole “Operation Cinder” business ending the Galactic Civil War within just a single year.

General Grievous is ridiculous. He should have never been brought over to live action.

Characters need to stay dead more often in Star Wars.

The added Cloud City windows trigger my OCD because of how they disappear between shots. They’re not worth existing if they create more continuity errors than the film originally had.