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The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 485

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

sherlockpotter said:

Here’s an idea - instead of Kylo being all like “Grrr…I’m a bad guy! I want to kill Palpatine and claim his power! Grrr!” What if we could make him into a kind of anti-hero?

For some reason this is always how I saw his character. I never thought he was teaming up with Palpy/Sith for anything. It confused me when people interpreted it that way. Which is why I hate the line “…and take the throne.” He clearly only cares about the fleet in the context of the rest of the movie.

Also, side note, but just about everything you described about Kylo is how I handled things in my novelization.

Hey, nice! Yeah, it’s weird - those four words kind of refocus Kylo’s entire motivation more than anything else he says in the film. They could have built from evil guy, to anti-hero, to reformed hero across the three films; but they just made him power-hungry in this one again, and then rushed his actual redemption.

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Personally I find “All the Sith” to be one of the few interesting concepts this film has going for it, and the only thing that justifies Palpatine’s return in this trilogy. Him being a conglomerate of powerful evil spirits makes the idea that he can just come back from the dead more digestible, and having the ultimate final threat be the living manifestation of the Sith being banished by the spirits of the Jedi is atleast enough to give this movie the feeling of a saga wide finale, instead of just being that one old guy from the other movies that has nothing to do with this trilogy being shoehorned in at the last second (I mean he still is, but this explanation at least justifies his inclusion in a more meaningful way).

Losing this aspect of the film would make Palpatine’s return unbearable for me, I’m not being hyperbolic. I don’t mind that it doesn’t gel perfectly with ‘Rey Palpatine’, it’s not really a plot hole, just two ideas that don’t match completely well but don’t necessairly need to.

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 (Edited)

I don’t mind it being there, don’t get me wrong. I like the idea that in his spare time in the Empire Palpatine went around collecting Sith spirits from their tombs and merged them with his own for more power.

But as for that being the sole reason he is able to cheat death? Nah. It’s gotta be something he learned from Plagueis (since we know he was the only Sith able to cheat death), and since we already have the essence transfer concept in the film, why not mix that with clones. So he hops from clone to clone, draining the life out of them to survive.

But that’s just my opinion.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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 (Edited)

I just mean that the sheer power of the Sith spirits makes it more plausible he could survive being thrown down a shaft and blowing up, it’s a revelation that he’s even more powerful than we knew, so we can digest that he could come back after we thought he was defeated.

Also the idea is the spirts of the Sith were transfered to him when he killed Plagueis, it builds on the idea of the Rule of Two and the fact the apprentice is always trying to overtake his Master, revealing that this actually passes down their essence, building up their power through the generations, it’s so unnatural, selfish, and right in line with the Sith. It adds a new layer to the character in the previous movies and it’s in line with the “pure evil” persona Palpatine was always seen as. And as I said it gives a much needed finality to the final film in the saga to have the Jedi banish the Sith once and for all.

When I say it’s the only thing that justifies Palpatine’s return in this trilogy, I mean that the character had no reason to appear, he had absolutely no part in the story that this trilogy had told so far. Making his character “The Sith” at least plays into the broader conflict that spans way back than even the prequels and makes it feel like a deifinive conclusion.

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It definitely works for sure. But the end result would be the same with the whole essence transfer cloning shenanigans (if he went around collecting spirits).

If anything, I would imagine collecting all of those spirits would make it all the harder to find a suitable host to latch on to. And I find that to be poetic justice really, that in his greed to gain more and more power, Palpatine suddenly found out that he contained so much power that no vessel could contain him without suffering.

In fact, that is the canon answer pretty much. His transfer was imperfect to the clone body, and the body itself couldn’t contain all those spirits.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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Seems like the bodily return of Palpatine and Sith spirit transfer is redundant. Palpatine was brought back for marketing, rather than story, reasons.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Yeah the Sith themselves we’re done for in the story, they went out of their way to make Snoke and Kylo not be Sith, only to make this last installment all about Jedi vs Sith again, their idea of “breaking the cycle” was basically to glue it back together first.

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This thread is getting incredibly derailed, but I will say this: George Lucas’ original plan (supposedly) was to have Darth Maul be the big bad of the sequels. Ya know, the Sithy guy that you would think was dead without consuming canon content outside of the saga (sound familiar?) Granted, it was explained better for Maul over Palpatine, but I’d reckon just give it some time. So it sounds like either way history went, a Sith-type character from TPM would have been involved.

That being said, would it have been better if they hadn’t gone out of their way to make Snoke and Kylo specifically not Sith? Perhaps. But at the same time, I really enjoyed having Kylo be uninterested in both the Sith and the Jedi and wanting to make something new. So maybe if Palpatine was built up throughout the trilogy better it would have worked nicely.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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I think the entire first two finished and released chapters of the trilogy are more relevant than Lucas’ original ST ideas when discussing the merits and failings of the third chapter in said trilogy. Palpatine’s return was not setup and doesn’t contribute to anything in the story that was build up through TFA and TLJ, he was not relevant at all and the Sith were intentionally left behind aswell. However their importance in TRoS cannot and should not be downplayed so I’ve been mostly discussing for the best implementation of Palpatine possible in the film, to which I think keeping the “all the Sith” aspect is essential. If anything I think it works to heighten the spirit transfer/clone bodies stuff to show how his body and mind are separate.

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Good arguments. I mean, I personally prefer the Sith collective consciousnesses idea. I’ve suggested ways to emphasize it even more, like having Palpatine’s voice sometimes be layered with multiple echoing voices. Like all the Sith are speaking through him.

It just seems like they barely touched on that idea in the film. Like, taking it out wouldn’t effect the story at all. And no one even talks about it. It’s just that “Palpatine” has returned. Palpatine this. Palpatine that.

It would be an interesting thing for Kylo to explain to Rey. Suddenly, the idea of defeating Palpatine seems that much more challenging, if cheating death if something he/it has done for a thousand years.

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Something tells me it was a half-assed explanation for Palpatine’s survival that they threw in there at the last second (thus why it is never mentioned again really). Then again, there are a lot of those in this movie.

Later when writing the canon material around the movie they realized it was better to go in the cloning/transfer direction. But it was already too late obviously to change stuff in the film.

Man, sometimes I wish this movie got delayed.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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I agree with you. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was an idea that was added during reshoots.

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RogueLeader said:

I’ve suggested ways to emphasize it even more, like having Palpatine’s voice sometimes be layered with multiple echoing voices. Like all the Sith are speaking through him.

Well then. I guess I know what I’m working on next!

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axlanian said:

RogueLeader said:

I’ve suggested ways to emphasize it even more, like having Palpatine’s voice sometimes be layered with multiple echoing voices. Like all the Sith are speaking through him.

Well then. I guess I know what I’m working on next!

YAAS. Whether we cut this plot line or emphasize it, I think either option is better than half-adding it, like it currently feels. I’m interested to see how you approach this idea!

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What bit do you think I should test it on first? I was thinking of doing the part when Rey finally meets Mr. Sheev on Exegol

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I think when he says “We will be one” is a great line to try that effect on.

Or, when he says, “As all the Sith live in me”.

Just some examples though.

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I wonder if there’s a tie-in possibility somehow with that weird voice he used for one scene in ROTS.

Consider me skeptical of this one, but “I’d like to see you try.”

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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 (Edited)

I know there is no one good answer to satisfy anything, since we know Palps was literally put in the movie just for marketing reasons/nostalgia/just cuz/who cares why. I also understand doing the whole transfer thing is what Sith have been doing the WHOLE TIME gives us … somewhat an answer. And yea, you can go that route to help explain all this. Sure. And good points with it.

However I personally would not want to make that implication. If a person was to sit down and do a Star Wars Marathon (Hal’s for sure for the PT!) there is “movie logic” that Palps talks about Plaguis who was basically figuring out reversing death, aka UNLIMITED LIFE WITH UNLIMITED POWER! (hahah) … but at this point didn’t have the secret to unlocking that. We even have Palps talking about figuring it out. So, we have Palps, who as a Sith is all about power … of course he would want to live on forever, would continue that work. So it something “new” by that time. (Remember, by ROTS, there was no force ghosts [till the end of it for Jedi to train on that] or a way to stop death)

Fast forward to the last movie. We see that Palps was indeed working on that, and was somewhat successful. What was one of the ways? Well with changing the Snoke vat to Palpy vats, we see he involved cloning. (That change was such a simple and smart change editors did!) And the whole transferring could have been either him figuring out fully or partially from what Plaguis started.

Personally, I would be ok with keeping the line “The Dark Side is a Pathway…” since it would more so connect to the audience to ROTS … which hey! Palps talked about this topic! So it’s really a line to help the audience connect to that movie.

Again, it isn’t perfect, but having it more of Palpatine doing this and not just “Palpatine wasn’t a person, he was all the Sith in a body! The Sith are no an individual, but a bunch of guys and gals in a body impersonating a person!” kinda takes away from Palpatine. Another instance of “This isn’t the bad guy in the story, it’s this new guy that get’s introduced at the end.”

Again, I want to stress just my view and it isn’t perfect by a stretch since there is no perfect way with Palps, who was pretty much thrown in the last movie “for reasons.” I would like it if it was complimenting the movies/“movie logic” that came before it, not “rewrite” them.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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Ngl I definitely do miss having that Palpatine line because of everything it alludes to. Influence the midichlorians to create life (Force-sensitive clones), cheating death (essence transfer).

The problem is that I also like Kylo knowing that it’s a bad idea to kill Palpatine. That threat of the power he has to possess him should be what stops Kylo from killing him.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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I was always under the impression that when Palpatine says he is all the sith, he was just simply referring to the rule of two. And how the apprentice always defeats the master, leaving just him to be the culmination of all the sith. and being the most powerful sith.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

Ngl I definitely do miss having that Palpatine line because of everything it alludes to. Influence the midichlorians to create life (Force-sensitive clones), cheating death (essence transfer).

The problem is that I also like Kylo knowing that it’s a bad idea to kill Palpatine. That threat of the power he has to possess him should be what stops Kylo from killing him.

Could the lines be swapped?

To Kylo: “I have died before. Kill me and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me.

To Rey: “You want to kill me, that is what I want. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural. You will be Empress. We will be one.”

The Skywalker Saga Viewing Order:
I: C.O.D. | II: T.A.S. | III: L.O.E. AE
IV: Revisited | V: Revisited | VI: Revisited
VII: Restructured | VIII: Rekindled | IX: Ascendant

This is the way.

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Sorry this thread has a whole lot of pages and I’m trying to catch up. I see in the first post that some changes have been made since v1 (like vader’s TIE). Has v2 been released? Or is it still in progress?

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DZ-330 said:

vorpalnonsense said:

Sorry this thread has a whole lot of pages and I’m trying to catch up. I see in the first post that some changes have been made since v1 (like vader’s TIE). Has v2 been released? Or is it still in progress?

Still in progress.

Thank you!