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The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 484

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Lol once again rogue leader does it again. I like that “simple” approach that ties in … you know … the previous movies’ explanation/danger of dark side.

EDIT: On paper, it sounds like it is doable and is such a pretty minor tweak that has a better impact on things.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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KumoNin said:

ThisIsCreation said:

I think this is a non issue. It doesn’t change the movie and alot of people wouldn’t give it a second thought

It caught me completely off guard and took me out of it, honestly. To be clear, I think this change is not a bad idea, and I think the soul possession should remain, it’s just that the hangar scene should be modified so that this makes more sense. (If that line is not in the nobody version I don’t care as much tho 😄)

Alright, I may have discovered a line that could replace Kylo’s contradictory line here. Not only is Kylo clearly not interested in becoming a Sith (see TLJ), but he also already knows that killing Palpatine with the dark side is no bueno. So the line “We’ll kill him and take the [Sith] throne” makes absolutely no sense from two different angles.

So here is what I propose: https://youtu.be/rRI1ctiFPh8 (audio WIP)

And here it is in text form: “You don’t need to say anything. You know what you need to do. You know.” offers hand

The only downside of replacing this is that Kylo’s affiliations are kinda left up in the air. At least with the other line it’s made clear he doesn’t give a crap about Palpatine, and just wants the fleet for himself. Ah well, at least it’s still clear that he wants Rey to join him.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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To help with help clear up Kylo’s affiliation and the “killing” question, we could potentially go with something similar to this line change I suggested over on the Rey Nobody thread. (Ignore everything before it since it is Rey Nobody-related)

https://vimeo.com/447063673

Kylo: What Palpatine doesn’t know is that we’re a Dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. Together, nothing will stand in our way.

OR

Kylo: Together, we’ll take the throne.

Though the first option might be better if you don’t want to associate Kylo with the Sith throne. Plus, these lines also might work well for the eventual Rey Nobody version of Ascendant.

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Suffice it to say for the quick moment that my style and this project’s aim is to steer toward these simple, elegant changes rather than more drastic ones.

Sherlock, I 100% want to see your fan edit of TROS(:A) as well, and that ain’t no jive. But I would rather deliver something with Ascendant V2 that can serve as a foundation for such things.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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RogueLeader said:

Kylo: What Palpatine doesn’t know is that we’re a Dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. Together, nothing will stand in our way.

Hmmm. I really like this one. My one concern is that people might recognize it’s sourced from TFA. That’s why I chose this line, because it is exclusive to the video game. Tell me, is there something wrong with mine besides what I already mentioned?

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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That is true. Though it is slightly different, since in TFA he says, “I will let nothing stand in our way.”

I think the inflection of “You don’t have to say anything” doesn’t fit as smoothly with the rest of the dialogue as “Nothing will stand in our way” does. Like, it carries this attitude that the rest of his monologue doesn’t have, if that makes sense. Though just looking at the dialogue I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.

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RogueLeader said:

I think the inflection of “You don’t have to say anything” doesn’t fit as smoothly with the rest of the dialogue as “Nothing will stand in our way” does. Like, it carries this attitude that the rest of his monologue doesn’t have, if that makes sense. Though just looking at the dialogue I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.

Yeah that’s what I was somewhat concerned about. It’s usually hard for me to tell those sorts of things, but I can kinda see what you’re saying. There’s a hint of anger on mine instead of vulnerability, which your line nails.

That said, I do believe this line should be replaced. Preferably with yours. I know Sherlock said something about “oh it’s not worth it because none of it makes sense”, but that’s a kinda pessimistic attitude when it comes to fan editing. Especially since somebody has already expressed how it took them out of the movie (myself included).

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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By the way I also think that Rey striking Finn with lightning is too overkill, she’s supposed to be pushing him away to keep him out of it, but ends up hurling him by pushing with great force, I think that’s enough to show she’s lost control. At that point Rey is supposed to believe she’s doing the righteous thing by fighting Kylo, trying to prove him wrong by refusing to join him, not realizing her frenzied state is proving the opposite until Leia’s sacrifice makes her snap out of it. I think literally electrocuting Finn with a bolt of lightning would be enough to make her snap out of it in a similar manner.

As for Palpatine’s lines, as it stands now he’s already pushing for that deceit that Rey will inherit his power, when he says “only you have the power to help them” he’s saying only she can take over him, inheriting his physical power AND the power of his position: it will give her his power to command the fleet, which would be the quickest way of saving her friends who are currently being shot down by said fleet.

Of course it’s all a lie, as the spirits of all the Sith would overtake her. I do like this concept of “All the Sith”, Palpatine has always been the representation of pure evil, and this explanation actually builds upon his character. It’s interesting to think we never got to see whoever Palpatine truly was before killing Plagueis, as it turns out the Palpatine we saw in the prequels was always a conglomerate of every Sith that was able to overtake his Master. Of course in classic TRoS fashion, this concept contradicts the idea that Rey’s power stems form being Palpatine’s grandaughter, since Palpatine’s power is not genetic or even physical at all, unless his offspring was somehow able to inherit the genes of every spirit in his body, and that’s not even including the mess of making his son a clone. This parental relation is also the reason they need to have everyone call him “Palpatine” instead of Darth Sidious (which Luke called him in TLJ) muddling the concept further. It would make more sense for him to use his Sith name instead of the name of the person that was overtaken by all the Sith.

Kylo’s line about killing Palpatine comes directly after he tells Rey they’re a Dyad in the Force, and he specifically says they will kill him “together”. I think it’s simple to put two and two together and imagine Kylo would think they can defeat Palpatine because they’re a dyad.

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Lol, I’ve thought about that a lot Burbin!

I find the idea of the Sith consciousness really interesting. The implication is that “Palpatine” as we know him is really one of dozens of Sith identities that exist in him, starting with Darth Bane. It is really weird to introduce it, though, when they’re trying to emphasize the power of the Palpatine bloodline. The “All the Sith” thing really deemphasizes the importance of Sheev Palpatine, the man. So why is Rey being Palpatine’s granddaughter that big of a deal? It would almost be better to cut all of that out, and imply it really is just Palpatine, and he somehow found a way to really cheat death. You can’t really change the fact they just call him Palpatine the whole movie.

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Oh man, I absolutely love all of this discussion. 😄

Burbin said:

I’d say the central theme of the film is fighting alone vs standing together:

That’s a really nice way of looking at the film; and that also ties in really well with Ascendant, where we actually see the past Jedi standing with Rey. I’ll be honest, I still see Rey’s struggle as more insulated, with her feeling “separate” from her friends, rather than trying to shield them; which is probably why that line in the finale strikes me as so weird. But yeah, for Finn and Poe, that’s a great way to look at the film. (And that’s something that the new “Galaxy rising up” sequences will also help with here.)

Jar Jar Bricks said:

KumoNin said:

ThisIsCreation said:

I think this is a non issue. It doesn’t change the movie and alot of people wouldn’t give it a second thought

It caught me completely off guard and took me out of it, honestly. To be clear, I think this change is not a bad idea, and I think the soul possession should remain, it’s just that the hangar scene should be modified so that this makes more sense. (If that line is not in the nobody version I don’t care as much tho 😄)

Alright, I may have discovered a line that could replace Kylo’s contradictory line here. Not only is Kylo clearly not interested in becoming a Sith (see TLJ), but he also already knows that killing Palpatine with the dark side is no bueno. So the line “We’ll kill him and take the [Sith] throne” makes absolutely no sense from two different angles.

So here is what I propose: https://youtu.be/rRI1ctiFPh8 (audio WIP)

And here it is in text form: “You don’t need to say anything. You know what you need to do. You know.” offers hand

You know, when you first brought up changing this line, Jar Jar, I said that I couldn’t think of a way they could team up to kill Palpatine, have Kylo know about the possession, and make it all make sense. That seems to have been a lack of imagination on my part. I like the direction you’re taking the line; I like it a lot. On paper, it’s almost like he’s comforting Rey a little there. I do agree that the inflection doesn’t quite match - he sounds a bit like he’s jeering at her - but I’ll be interested to see where you take the line from here!

RogueLeader said:

It would be interesting if you could change some of Palpatine’s lines to make it sound like if Rey kills Palpatine, she will simply take his power. Power she needs to save her friends. (But in reality, Palpatine will just use her as his new host). So, for example, you could give Palpatine new lines like this.

Palpatine: You’re too weak. Only I have the power to save them.

Then later after she agrees, instead of saying “She will take her revenge”, Palpatine could say, “She will take my power”.

Ugh, yes to all of this! RogueLeader, can we just give you a screenwriter credit at this point? That all sounds really great conceptually - it’s basically a more feasible example of what I was looking to do originally: “You don’t have the power to save them. The Light is weak. Darkness will rise.” (And I 100% want to use your Rey Nobody stuff too!)

And Hal, I appreciate your blessing! I hope my edit won’t disappoint when I eventually make it!

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Burbin said:

I’d say the central theme of the film is fighting alone vs standing together:

A friend of mine once said Star Wars isn’t about one person, it’s about one more person, and I’ve never been able to stop thinking about that.

“It’s like rhymetry. They poem.” - Leorge Gucas

The Rise of Skywalker Expanded Edition by Rae Carson: The Faraday Edit, Revenge of the Sith: The Faraday Nudge, ROTS Ultracut: Order 66, The Light Rises, Faraday Junior’s Star Wars

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I am liking this direction … this is very promising and doesn’t seem like a drastic change, that simply helps make things a bit more logical. You know, the opposite direction JJ went for. Lol.

EDIT: The more I keep thinking about it, it seems on paper pretty doable to do with some more fine tuning. I’d like to see a combination or whatever between Rogue’s sample and Jar Jar’s direction on the hanger scene. Since Kylo knows Palps plan … his transfer thing … then why would he want Rey to kill Palps? If his focus is having Rey on his side … isn’t that like the exact opposite of what he wants? If the wording/motivation is changed to her joining Kylo to STOP or FACE Palps together, that seems more in line with what he wants. What will they do together? Im sure he isn’t sure yet, but he just knows he wants the two of them to join together. Heck, maybe the plan would be to overpower Palps and put him into a Force Nursery Home. But jokes aside, since Kylo knows Palp’s endgame … why tell Rey to kill Palps when he knows what would happen?

As well as making Rey’s motivation make more sense. Without Palps revealing his “My spirit will go into you … but don’t worry, you will totally have control since … I’ll be grateful to get out of this decaying body which keeps soiling itself every five minutes and I’ll let you take control. wink” to “You kill me and my POWER will be yours, AKA the Big Dark Side power which you can use to save your friends.” We the audience knows that is not true, but Rey doesn’t know … and it makes it believable she would go through with it.

Man … this makes more sense.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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Don’t won’t to derail any other discussion people want to have, but I wanted to try and logic through the possession stuff. Ironically it is the logic of my own earlier suggestions, but I want to make sure it all makes sense. Which, even if it doesn’t 100% make sense, I guess it still would be on par with the theatrical film.

In regards to this edit, since Palpatine tells Kylo at the beginning that if he kills him that his spirit will pass into Kylo, why wouldn’t Kylo tell Rey that if she tries to kill Palpatine, that he would possess her? Since Palpatine told him that at the beginning, and Kylo knows Rey wants to kill Palpatine, he could use that info to make her believe that only through the power of their Dyad can they truly defeat him. I don’t think this is necessarily a plot hole, but I think it would help strengthen this idea if there is a strong reason why Kylo wouldn’t try this.

I guess it wouldn’t necessarily make a difference though. Even if he told her, she goes to Exegol thinking she will be able to defeat him another way without Kylo. She only acts like she might go through with it once she realizes “killing” him might be the only way to save her friends. Which I guess brings us back to a similar place as the theatrical film, sort of defeating the purpose of moving the “spirit” line to the beginning in the first place.

Originally, the earlier placement of the spirit line was meant to accomplish 3 things:

  1. It gave the audience a better idea of how Palpatine survived when he is first introduced. (Clones + spirit transfer)
  2. It gave Kylo a reason why he simply couldn’t kill Palpatine and take the fleet then and there.
  3. It made it so Palpatine didn’t villain-splain his plan to Rey later in the film. Plus, it creates dramatic irony for the audience, since we would know what would really happen if Rey kills him.

Perhaps that line could be moved back to the end, but the line could be changed to just, “Kill me, and my power will pass into you… You will be Empress, we will be one.”

This would give the line some ambiguity still, something of Palpatine will pass into Rey. Palpatine wants Rey to believe that she will get his power. But the “We will be one” line provides some ambiguity, and makes us (and Rey) wonder how much of Palpatine will still persist if she commits to the act. Also, it removes the “as all the Sith live in me” aspect, which makes things unnecessarily complicated. Let it just be Palpatine.

And for earlier in the film with Kylo, the original lines went like this-

Kylo: You’ll die first.

Palpatine: I have died before. The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

It currently is this-

Palpatine: I have died before. Kill me and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me.

Instead, it could go something like this-

Palpatine: Kill me. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

Palpatine sort of did this already, but Palpatine straight up telling Kylo to kill him is more explicitly reverse psychology. Kylo probably wasn’t expecting that response, and those two lines paired together implies that if he kills him, that some unnatural things might happen. This comes off as more of a threat than him simply saying “I have died before”. Although he is still referring to spirit transfer, like my original suggestion, it isn’t explicitly said. This allows Kylo to believe killing him directly would be a bad idea, but still leave him in the dark as to exactly why.

I also think between Palpatine telling him to become what Vader couldn’t, and that he will rule all the galaxy as the new Emperor, it would be interesting if he were to tell Kylo “My spirit is weak”. Although he is lying to Kylo (or maybe he isn’t?), this gives Kylo a reason why Palpatine is just offering his Empire to Kylo (which he should be extremely suspicious about). He’s basically saying he’s dying, and he wants Kylo to be his successor. I also think it would be helpful to mention the word spirit somewhere, so we know his spirit does play a role in this, and this isn’t just a Palpatine clone or a reanimated corpse. Palpatine’s spirit is in that body.
Later in the film he also says “They don’t have long”, so you could even throw in “I don’t have long” somewhere potentially. Perhaps after, “The Final Order will soon be ready.” These two lines might help give the audience the idea that Palpatine is dying in a way that clone bodies can no longer help him.

While Kylo should still know something is up, I think it helps if Palpatine at least gives Kylo some semblance of a motivation to make him doubt what exactly Palpatine’s plan is. And since the word “spirit” was mentioned earlier in Kylo’s scene, when Palpatine later says “We will be one” we still may achieve that dramatic irony in knowing that it likely means Palpatine’s spirit will pass into Rey, not just his “powers”.

I think this might be a way to give the audience enough information to understand that Palpatine’s spirit will transfer into the one that kills him, but without neither Kylo nor Rey ever being explicitly told that. So, Kylo can’t warn Rey, because he doesn’t know, and Rey is left to believe she will merely inherit Palpatine’s power.

But if someone can think of a good reason Kylo wouldn’t tell Rey, then I guess we could leave everything as-is.

Would love to get some thoughts.

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Wow Rogue. This is very interesting idea and will think about it. I like the less explicit things and it leaves thing not just more ambiguous for Kylo and Rey … but the audience. It is really more in line with Palps who is straight up a manipulator who gives half-truths to make the people confused or THINK they know. It is a good way to still keep some kind of explanation in the beginning (we also still see Palpy clone vats, but not the full picture) to Kylo’s motivation with Rey at the hanger AND Rey’s motivation to “do the deed” at the end.

Out of curiosity, would this concept more or less remove any instances of “kill with revenge/hate that completes the transfer” and leave it more … flexible for Palps? Because leaving it more flexible helps at least, kinda give a reason for Palps to be around after the DSII destruction … it helps simplify it that Palps can transfer around a bit, but we see the limitation with cloning and whatnot.

EDIT: Looking at the PT, it would be a little more connected that Palps did Find a way to survive due to the knowledge he had from Plaguis. To me, it would be more cohesive it is is really Palpy and not the whole “Sith all together” since it would really “play nice” with Plaguis. With the knowledge and time, Palps “mostly broke the code” using whatever he learned from Plaguis and cloning … but the dyad is the final piece and he didn’t know it till the last movie. So in some ways, the whole taking of their dyadness energy was more than just a “Force Bantha” bath, but his goal of preventing him now from dying since the energy he took literally cured his dying body. He can now prevent himself from dying, not others. (like Plaguis was “apparently” able to do)

Of course that last part was just a view you can have, but the first part I would like to see it’s palpy and not all the sith to connect more in line with ROTS and Plaguis.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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Jarbear, the way I explained/understood essence transfer is as follows: essence transfer was a commonly known ability by the Sith, where you have to be killed while defenseless by a target harnessing the dark side for the transfer to succeed. But the form of essence transfer Palpatine learned is extra special, and it was originally discovered by Plagueis. I’d like to refer to it as premeditated essence transfer, where he is capable of expelling his own spirit and sending it into a dormant clone body from just about anywhere. And then obviously the Force ghosts hold his spirit in place at the end, effectively killing him.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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Yeah, I like the “All the Sith” idea a lot, but I felt like it was tacked on and not really explored. It just seems simpler/cleaner if it is clearly just Palpatine. Especially since that’s all they call him the entire film. Just thinking out loud though.

That interpretation is interesting Jar Jar. I don’t think we could get a lot of that across just in the film, though. That there are two different types of spirit transfer or whatever.

I also wish that the whole Dyad term was used or explained earlier in the film, or a previous film.

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Yeah I mostly threw it out there because there seems to be a belief here that essence transfer must involve a defenseless person and anger/vengeance. But clearly that isn’t necessarily true, because Palpatine was able to do it with his clones as he died on the Death Star. Otherwise he wouldn’t still be alive. I don’t give a crap about the “all the Sith live in me” hand-waving. So there is more to the ability than what is shown in the film. That’s just my head canon on it all.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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While I am sure there are books/comics/whatnot that explains that, but that’s not explained in the movies. I admit my viewpoint is more on the strictly with the movies and the audience watching the saga from start to finish without having to go to outside sources to explain things, especially important/major aspects that affect the movies. (That is why I’m also personally not a fan of the sequels since they did not naturally flow from ROTJ like ROTS did to ANH, but this is neither here nor there)

So on my view (Not saying one is right or wrong at all!) it would be wise to keep things pretty self contained to the movies as I could say pretty confidently that the majority of people who watch the movies … just watch the movies. So keeping things just connected to the movies makes more sense to the audience. In ROTS, we have Palps talk about Plaguis and trying to stop death, or at least was “successful” in a way, but not fully (Plus palps did say he’s looking to figure it out in that movie too). So now, we see a connection to that WITH cloning, which was a big deal in the PT. Which may be the reason Palps was into a cloning for not just an army, but to “finish” plagues’ work.

So just in my modest view, having things stay more connected in the movies, even if it is simple explanation or connection, it feels more connected that way. Because in some ways, having to “retcon” or “rewrite” aspects of the previous two sagas feels a bit cheap … or at least “forcing” what happened previously to accommodate the new.

So again, not saying there is “one right way,” but just a view to help keep the movies connected together.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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RogueLeader said:

Don’t won’t to derail any other discussion people want to have, but I wanted to try and logic through the possession stuff. Ironically it is the logic of my own earlier suggestions, but I want to make sure it all makes sense. Which, even if it doesn’t 100% make sense, I guess it still would be on par with the theatrical film.

In regards to this edit, since Palpatine tells Kylo at the beginning that if he kills him that his spirit will pass into Kylo, why wouldn’t Kylo tell Rey that if she tries to kill Palpatine, that he would possess her? Since Palpatine told him that at the beginning, and Kylo knows Rey wants to kill Palpatine, he could use that info to make her believe that only through the power of their Dyad can they truly defeat him. I don’t think this is necessarily a plot hole, but I think it would help strengthen this idea if there is a strong reason why Kylo wouldn’t try this.

I guess it wouldn’t necessarily make a difference though. Even if he told her, she goes to Exegol thinking she will be able to defeat him another way without Kylo. She only acts like she might go through with it once she realizes “killing” him might be the only way to save her friends. Which I guess brings us back to a similar place as the theatrical film, sort of defeating the purpose of moving the “spirit” line to the beginning in the first place.

Originally, the earlier placement of the spirit line was meant to accomplish 3 things:

  1. It gave the audience a better idea of how Palpatine survived when he is first introduced. (Clones + spirit transfer)
  2. It gave Kylo a reason why he simply couldn’t kill Palpatine and take the fleet then and there.
  3. It made it so Palpatine didn’t villain-splain his plan to Rey later in the film. Plus, it creates dramatic irony for the audience, since we would know what would really happen if Rey kills him.

Perhaps that line could be moved back to the end, but the line could be changed to just, “Kill me, and my power will pass into you… You will be Empress, we will be one.”

This would give the line some ambiguity still, something of Palpatine will pass into Rey. Palpatine wants Rey to believe that she will get his power. But the “We will be one” line provides some ambiguity, and makes us (and Rey) wonder how much of Palpatine will still persist if she commits to the act. Also, it removes the “as all the Sith live in me” aspect, which makes things unnecessarily complicated. Let it just be Palpatine.

And for earlier in the film with Kylo, the original lines went like this-

Kylo: You’ll die first.

Palpatine: I have died before. The dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

It currently is this-

Palpatine: I have died before. Kill me and my spirit will pass into you, as all the Sith live in me.

Instead, it could go something like this-

Palpatine: Kill me. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.

Palpatine sort of did this already, but Palpatine straight up telling Kylo to kill him is more explicitly reverse psychology. Kylo probably wasn’t expecting that response, and those two lines paired together implies that if he kills him, that some unnatural things might happen. This comes off as more of a threat than him simply saying “I have died before”. Although he is still referring to spirit transfer, like my original suggestion, it isn’t explicitly said. This allows Kylo to believe killing him directly would be a bad idea, but still leave him in the dark as to exactly why.

I also think between Palpatine telling him to become what Vader couldn’t, and that he will rule all the galaxy as the new Emperor, it would be interesting if he were to tell Kylo “My spirit is weak”. Although he is lying to Kylo (or maybe he isn’t?), this gives Kylo a reason why Palpatine is just offering his Empire to Kylo (which he should be extremely suspicious about). He’s basically saying he’s dying, and he wants Kylo to be his successor. I also think it would be helpful to mention the word spirit somewhere, so we know his spirit does play a role in this, and this isn’t just a Palpatine clone or a reanimated corpse. Palpatine’s spirit is in that body.
Later in the film he also says “They don’t have long”, so you could even throw in “I don’t have long” somewhere potentially. Perhaps after, “The Final Order will soon be ready.” These two lines might help give the audience the idea that Palpatine is dying in a way that clone bodies can no longer help him.

While Kylo should still know something is up, I think it helps if Palpatine at least gives Kylo some semblance of a motivation to make him doubt what exactly Palpatine’s plan is. And since the word “spirit” was mentioned earlier in Kylo’s scene, when Palpatine later says “We will be one” we still may achieve that dramatic irony in knowing that it likely means Palpatine’s spirit will pass into Rey, not just his “powers”.

I think this might be a way to give the audience enough information to understand that Palpatine’s spirit will transfer into the one that kills him, but without neither Kylo nor Rey ever being explicitly told that. So, Kylo can’t warn Rey, because he doesn’t know, and Rey is left to believe she will merely inherit Palpatine’s power.

But if someone can think of a good reason Kylo wouldn’t tell Rey, then I guess we could leave everything as-is.

Would love to get some thoughts.

To convey this idea, I’d personally massage the suggested dialogue slightly into this:

Kylo: You’ll die first.
Palpatine: Then kill me. I have died before. The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many unnatural abilities.

The single missing word is common enough that it could surely be sourced from somewhere. I’ll admit that the final line might end up sounding a bit YouTube Pooped, in which case the unaltered version of the line would still work.

“It’s like rhymetry. They poem.” - Leorge Gucas

The Rise of Skywalker Expanded Edition by Rae Carson: The Faraday Edit, Revenge of the Sith: The Faraday Nudge, ROTS Ultracut: Order 66, The Light Rises, Faraday Junior’s Star Wars

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Oh yeah, that is a good point Jar Jar. It does really make the whole spirit transfer thing kinda complicated.

I honestly believe the early leaks said that the Palpatine we see in the film was originally just meant to be his original body, somehow recovered from the Death Star. It’s dumb, but at least the spirit transfer thing doesn’t have two rules all of the sudden. I also don’t know if spirit transfer was a thing at all in the first version. And as far as I’m aware, it was always his plan to drink their Dyad milkshake before the reshoots. It wasn’t a surprise to Palpatine.

The early version also has Palpatine tell Kylo that he’s dying and has been grooming Kylo as his successor. And he wants Kylo to bring Rey so they can turn her and have them begin a new Sith dynasty. Palpatine is also the one who tells Kylo about the Dyad. Which makes sense, since the theatrical version never explains how Kylo knows about the Dyad. Of course all of it is a ruse to get them to come there together to allow him to drain their life Force.

Anyway, I don’t think any of these dialogue changes would drastically improve the film. At the very least they could nudge the film in a more logical direction. It’s just a matter or figuring it out what’s the most effective change with simple, unobtrusive edits. You can argue the theatrical film potentially makes sense as-is and none of these changes make a difference. I just wish it was less convoluted, which is what I’m trying to figure out.

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Here’s an idea - instead of Kylo being all like “Grrr…I’m a bad guy! I want to kill Palpatine and claim his power! Grrr!” What if we could make him into a kind of anti-hero?

Ideally, Sir Ridley could tweak the title crawl a little bit:

Meanwhile, Supreme Leader Kylo Ren has traveled to Mustafar, chasing whispers of a hidden power that [has been rising in the shadows]…

(So it’s kind of ambiguous to the audience whether he wants to claim that power for himself, or to stop it.)

He finds Palpatine, and he thinks about killing him; but then Palps tells him, “Kill me, and my spirit will pass into you…” So Kylo is like, “Shoot, I can’t kill him yet. I’ll have to play along.” (No matter what, I personally still want to axe the “pathway to many abilities” line. It feels like the Chewie medal - shoehorned into the movie because it’s a meme.)

Later, in the hangar, he confronts Rey: “What Palpatine doesn’t know is we’ve become a dyad in the Force, Rey. Two that are one. We [can defeat] him together, and [stop] the throne fleet.” (So his priority would be stopping Palpatine, rather than ruling in his stead. This also feels like it’s less of a backtrack from TLJ - He goes from a morally grey character who wants “The Sith, the Jedi…Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to,” to someone who teams up with the Sith and plans on ruling the Sith Throne; instead, he would stay as someone who’s just trying to make the galaxy better in his own twisted way, by still trying to progress things forward.) Basically, he thinks that they can contain his spirit if they work together.

By changing it from “We will kill him together” to “We can kill him together,” I think there might be enough nuance to explain why he’s trying to enlist Rey’s help, and why they’d have better odds of being successful if they work together, even if (and likely because) he knows about the possession gobbledygook. Plus, Kylo becomes more multi-faceted as a character, and Rey’s moral conundrum is heightened because, “Well crap, is Kylo Ren actually right?”

Rey doesn’t trust him for shit, of course; so when she goes to Exegol alone - I agree with RogueLeader here - "Kill me, and my [power] will pass into you… You will be Empress, we will be one.” And later “You’re too weak. Only I have the power to save them.”

Oh, and if we really want to focus on Palpatine’s spirit, instead of “all of the Sith Spirits,” could that last line be, “A scavenger girl is no match for the power in me!” “I…am a Jedi”?

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sherlockpotter said:

Here’s an idea - instead of Kylo being all like “Grrr…I’m a bad guy! I want to kill Palpatine and claim his power! Grrr!” What if we could make him into a kind of anti-hero?

For some reason this is always how I saw his character. I never thought he was teaming up with Palpy/Sith for anything. It confused me when people interpreted it that way. Which is why I hate the line “…and take the throne.” He clearly only cares about the fleet in the context of the rest of the movie.

Also, side note, but just about everything you described about Kylo is how I handled things in my novelization.

Tragedy of Vader - A Novelization of The Rise of Skywalker

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I think the “I am all the Sith” line could still work in the context of Palpatine presumably carrying the knowledge of dozens of generations of Sith before him. It doesn’t necessarily have to mean he’s all the Sith in one body.

EDIT: And yeah, I think one of the reasons the original plot was changed was to give Kylo more agency. If Palpatine wants Rey dead, and he can clearly be against Palpatine.

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RogueLeader said:

I think the “I am all the Sith” line could still work in the context of Palpatine presumably carrying the knowledge of dozens of generations of Sith before him. It doesn’t necessarily have to mean he’s all the Sith in one body.

I rather have that be the rational than what the implication is from the movie … it didn’t jive at all with the previous movies. As long as the other lines are removed it keeps that just at ambiguous as Rey saying she is all the jedi … which she clearly isn’t.

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”