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The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 379

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RogueLeader said:

Maybe Snoke did bridge their minds, which inadvertently solidified their bond and made them become a Dyad in the Force. So Snoke/Palpatine’s own machinations led to their undoing once again.

Pretty sure this is what Hal is going for. Although, if it was my trilogy of sequel fan edits I’d go all in on the “they’ve been a dyad for a really long time” approach. It just adds to the overall mysticism of the story (which I like about Star Wars), wherein the force hand-selected the two of them at some point to become a dyad when they didn’t even know each other.

Exsqueeze me.

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 (Edited)

But, like, why would Snoke bother to take credit for bridging their minds then? What does he get out of it? Is he just trying to brag about how powerful his is (when we see him do loads of other powerful things in this very scene anyway)? Does it prevent them from finding out about the Dyad (until Kylo just “knows” in the next film anyway, so whoop dee doo, that was worth it.)?

Plus, I don’t like the idea that both Snoke’s plan and Palpy’s plan only were able to happen because they could exploit this random-ass Dyad connection. That feels lazy. And convenient. (Two terms used to describe any quality story.) At least if Snoke does it, it gives him some agency in the story.

Plot wise, we have an established fact - Snoke bridged their minds. It’s yet another thing that TROS tries to retcon. Does anyone care (no offense, Jar Jar) that the novelization says Rey “downloaded” combat training from Kylo’s brain? When he manually tried to probe her mind anyway? Is this The Matrix? Poe doesn’t have Kylo Ren Combat Training DLC. He was probed too, after all. “Mind downloading” is not established at all in the film. Can’t Rey just be a good fighter of her own accord? Kylo asking about a random girl doesn’t imply some phophecized connection; it implies that there’s a girl in the story.

And what does it matter what Kylo said in lines that were cut from the film? Again, who cares?

And thematically, it serves to make Rey less important as a character. She’s not powerful because of her strength of character, or because of the choices she makes, or because of how she responds to a situation. She’s powerful because she’s a mythical Dyad! Look how special she is, arbitrarily! It could’ve happened to anyone, but it makes Rey special. Why didn’t Poe become a Dyad when Kylo probed his mind? Because he’s not born special. Hey kids, do you want to be important? You’ve gotta be born as a Dyad then. You weren’t? That sucks.

It’s the same reason why I don’t like Rey Palpatine. It makes her special because of what she is, not who she is. At least if she “becomes” a Dyad along the way, that’s mitigated somewhat. If she’s born a Dyad AND a Palpatine, she becomes a double-chosen one. How compelling. Factor that in with undoing yet another Last Jedi ret-con, and that’s the value of making them “become” a Dyad.

(I’m not trying to offend anyone who likes the Dyad concept. I just don’t like ret-cons, and I’m also passionate about Star Wars. Kinda just started typing there and waited to see where I’d end up.)

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

Pretty sure the only reason JJ wrote it that way (“we’re a dyad in the force”) is because of a couple lines from TFA.

  1. Kylo asking his officer “What girl?”, which gives the impression that he is aware of some mysterious girl out there that he keeps having visions/dreams of.

It can be easily interpreted as Kylo Ren being angry that someone is helping get the map away from the First Order and he wants to find her to make sure she doesn’t do anything about this.

  1. Kylo saying “It is you.” in early drafts of film TFA after Rey gets Anakin’s lightsaber. The line still appears in the novelization and is voiced by Adam Driver in the lego game. The line implies once again that he has had visions of her or knows there is some sort of connection between them.

Kylo Ren is saying, “It is you,” in the sense that she was the one who had awakened in the Force.

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RogueLeader said:

It could be along the lines of the theory that Palpatine/Plagueis inadvertently created Anakin/the Chosen One. They thought they could use him, but in the end it was their undoing.

Maybe Snoke did bridge their minds, which inadvertently solidified their bond and made them become a Dyad in the Force. So Snoke/Palpatine’s own machinations led to their undoing once again. I mean, we basically get that theme already since Palpatine indirectly made Rey by having a child of his own.

Maybe

Star Wars: The Last Skywalker Awakens (a sequel trilogy mega-edit)

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RogueLeader said:

It could be along the lines of the theory that Palpatine/Plagueis inadvertently created Anakin/the Chosen One. They thought they could use him, but in the end it was their undoing.

Maybe Snoke did bridge their minds, which inadvertently solidified their bond and made them become a Dyad in the Force. So Snoke/Palpatine’s own machinations led to their undoing once again. I mean, we basically get that theme already since Palpatine indirectly made Rey by having a child of his own.

Yeah, this is basically a kinder, less unhinged version of what I was getting at lol. Snoke bridge “becomes” a Dyad. So things build on the films that have come before.

I’m gonna get an ulcer from this film, guys.

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sherlockpotter said:

It’s the same reason why I don’t like Rey Palpatine. It makes her special because of what she is, not who she is. At least if she “becomes” a Dyad along the way, that’s mitigated somewhat. If she’s born a Dyad AND a Palpatine, she becomes a double-chosen one.

I believe our disagreement here can be figured out by how we view Star Wars.

If you were to take a look at old myths and legends, you would find that most of the time the characters that were written about were special because of what they were, and not necessarily who they were. George Lucas wrote Star Wars while taking inspiration from many of these old myths and legends, and that is why I advocate for elements of the story which might reflect this.

From what I understand, you take Star Wars from a more modern-day storytelling approach. That’s fine. Nothing wrong with it. But I find this other element of Star Wars is what makes it unique compared to most other stories you find today.

Exsqueeze me.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

sherlockpotter said:

It’s the same reason why I don’t like Rey Palpatine. It makes her special because of what she is, not who she is. At least if she “becomes” a Dyad along the way, that’s mitigated somewhat. If she’s born a Dyad AND a Palpatine, she becomes a double-chosen one.

I believe our disagreement here can be figured out by how we view Star Wars.

If you were to take a look at old myths and legends, you would find that most of the time the characters that were written about were special because of what they were, and not necessarily who they were. George Lucas wrote Star Wars while taking inspiration from many of these old myths and legends, and that is why I advocate for elements of the story which might reflect this.

From what I understand, you take Star Wars from a more modern-day storytelling approach. That’s fine. Nothing wrong with it. But I find this other element of Star Wars is what makes it unique compared to most other stories you find today.

Totally fair and valid interpretation. I guess in my mind, Luke was special, Anakin was literally The Chosen One. It’s been done before. So I really dug Rian Johnson’s modern take on self-made heroes, not mythic ones. Let’s shake up the formula a bit. Make it a little more (in my mind) thought-provoking.

But I think that’s why I’m holding out for Rey Nobody, and you’ll probably stick with V2, eh?

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sherlockpotter said:

But, like, why would Snoke bother to take credit for bridging their minds then? What does he get out of it? Is he just trying to brag about how powerful his is (when we see him do loads of other powerful things in this very scene anyway)? Does it prevent them from finding out about the Dyad (until Kylo just “knows” in the next film anyway, so whoop dee doo, that was worth it.)?

Plus, I don’t like the idea that both Snoke’s plan and Palpy’s plan only were able to happen because they could exploit this random-ass Dyad connection. That feels lazy. And convenient. (Two terms used to describe any quality story.) At least it Snoke does it, it gives him some agency in the story.

Plot wise, we have an established fact - Snoke bridged their minds. It’s yet another thing that TROS tries to retcon.

Yep. Retconning their communications to be just a feature of the dyad undermines that reveal; in TLJ, Rey learns the truth, that her entire encounter with Kylo Ren was a trap set up, she was so unprepared she got her ass kicked by Snoke and Kylo had to help her.

And thematically, it serves to make Rey less important as a character. She’s not powerful because of her strength of character, or because of the choices she makes, or because of how she responds to a situation. She’s powerful because she’s a mythical Dyad! Look how special she is, arbitrarily! It could’ve happened to anyone, but it makes Rey special. Why didn’t Poe become a Dyad when Kylo probed his mind? Because he’s not born special. Hey kids, do you want to be important? You’ve gotta be born as a Dyad then. You weren’t? That sucks.

It’s the same reason why I don’t like Rey Palpatine. It makes her special because of what she is, not who she is. At least if she “becomes” a Dyad along the way, that’s mitigated somewhat. If she’s born a Dyad AND a Palpatine, she becomes a double-chosen one. How compelling. Factor that in with undoing yet another Last Jedi ret-con, and that’s the value of making them “become” a Dyad.

Rey being special or otherwise was never the point; one of the most common misconceptions I’ve seen regarding the ST. The point was that Rey needed to overcome her toxic core belief that she is inherently worthless which she’s developed ever since she was abandoned (which she does in TRoS), and the point of the reveal in TLJ wasn’t whether she was nobody or not, the point was that she needed to stop caring about her parents because they were toxic people who thought she was worthless. Her being a Palpatine drives her toxic core belief home, when she stabs Kylo Ren she becomes convinced that, because of her lineage, she’s inherently a bad person who will do no good, she’s destined to become evil the way her grandfather was and no one will give her the value she desperately wants, which Luke refutes by reminding her of how Leia trained her regardless of her bloodline.

EDIT: Removed mention of ST fans.

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sherlockpotter said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

sherlockpotter said:

It’s the same reason why I don’t like Rey Palpatine. It makes her special because of what she is, not who she is. At least if she “becomes” a Dyad along the way, that’s mitigated somewhat. If she’s born a Dyad AND a Palpatine, she becomes a double-chosen one.

I believe our disagreement here can be figured out by how we view Star Wars.

If you were to take a look at old myths and legends, you would find that most of the time the characters that were written about were special because of what they were, and not necessarily who they were. George Lucas wrote Star Wars while taking inspiration from many of these old myths and legends, and that is why I advocate for elements of the story which might reflect this.

From what I understand, you take Star Wars from a more modern-day storytelling approach. That’s fine. Nothing wrong with it. But I find this other element of Star Wars is what makes it unique compared to most other stories you find today.

Totally fair and valid interpretation. I guess in my mind, Luke was special, Anakin was literally The Chosen One. It’s been done before. So I really dug Rian Johnson’s modern take on self-made heroes, not mythic ones. Let’s shake up the formula a bit. Make it a little more (in my mind) thought-provoking.

But I think that’s why I’m holding out for Rey Nobody, and you’ll probably stick with V2, eh?

In my mind, Rian Johnson’s modern take on Star Wars would have been wonderful in its own disconnected trilogy set in the Star Wars universe. But as part of the mythic Skywalker Saga? Meh, I’ll pass. That’s why I appreciate TROS’ attempts at bringing back some strangeness to the saga.

Exsqueeze me.

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It was I who bridged your minds suggested changing that line to “we’ve become a dyad in the force”. I think it would help tie TLJ and TRoS without either undermining the other. The ‘dyad’ concept is left pretty ambiguous, but to me it seems to be analog to Kylo and Rey’s growing relationship (“The life force of your bond” as Palpatine puts it). Even if that’s not the ‘official explanation’, we could lean to that concept and make it so that the ‘dyad’ is something that forms between them, so to speak, sometime during or after TLJ. That way TLJ can keep it’s consistent story, and TRoS can do it’s own thing. And as Hal said it would help explain how Palpatine could be so surprised, if the ‘dyad’ is a new piece on the board.

As for the “what girl?” line in TFA, it never seemed to me like there was anything concretely important about it, it was just Kylo being a pouting teenager. Though it’s open-ended enough that it could be taken at face value or expanded further (much like all of TFA’s ‘mysteries’).

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RogueLeader said:

It could be along the lines of the theory that Palpatine/Plagueis inadvertently created Anakin/the Chosen One. They thought they could use him, but in the end it was their undoing.

The story group has come out and disproved this many times:

https://imgur.com/a/nwqxEzX

Jar Jar Bricks said:
In my mind, Rian Johnson’s modern take on Star Wars would have been wonderful in its own disconnected trilogy set in the Star Wars universe

Good thing he’s getting his own trilogy with a ton of time to work on it! 😄 can’t wait

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Brewzter said:

RogueLeader said:

It could be along the lines of the theory that Palpatine/Plagueis inadvertently created Anakin/the Chosen One. They thought they could use him, but in the end it was their undoing.

The story group has come out and disproved this many times:

https://imgur.com/a/nwqxEzX

Actually, we are taking about an inadvertent creation. I believe the current story is that Plagueis was messing around with midichlorians, and in response it was the force itself which created Anakin. So while they did not directly create him, their actions caused a response which did.

Exsqueeze me.

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Brewzter said:

RogueLeader said:

It could be along the lines of the theory that Palpatine/Plagueis inadvertently created Anakin/the Chosen One. They thought they could use him, but in the end it was their undoing.

The story group has come out and disproved this many times:

https://imgur.com/a/nwqxEzX

I think the whole Chosen One thing is dumb anyway, but the Plagueis novel (I know it isn’t canon) didn’t imply Plagueis or Palpatine made Anakin, but that Plagueis’ experiments with the dark side made the Force create Anakin as a reaction. So it never implied they actually made Anakin, but them toying with the dark side led the Force to counterbalance their growing power, thus creating the Chosen One. That was the comparison I was trying to make, not that Palpatine literally made Anakin.

EDIT: Also, in earlier drafts of ROTS, Palpatine did claim to have created Anakin in a sense. Clearly George considered the idea. I mean, we never get an explanation for Anakin’s virgin birth, and then later Palpatine said his master had the power to create life. This was clearly meant to be connected at one point before George changed his mind. While I’m glad George didn’t include it, I don’t really blame anyone for drawing that conclusion. I mean, who didn’t consider it when Palpatine said the “create life” line?

It’s all really silly regardless.

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I forgot to mention - if placing the word “become” in Kylo’s dyad sentence doesn’t sound natural then I don’t think it’s a good idea to put it in there. I feel like at that point it would cause more harm than good.

Exsqueeze me.

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Random sleepless thought again: As the Acki Acki festival is every 42 years wouldn’t it be better for the puppet show to depict the OT? Maybe having an AT-AT tripping up from the wires which makes the kids laugh? Or maybe combine the two sequences with TLJ, a few pew pews which Luke deflects the bolts while a ship trips up the walker as a more showreal of “Skywalkers” brilliance.

Check out - http://www.youtube.com/moviesremastered

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I see what you’re saying, but I think it could complicate things and detract from the impact of what Luke did in TLJ specifically. Plus, we don’t have a lot of time to
play with either.

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I agree with RogueLeader.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Agreed Rogue.

Also, let’s not taint the OT anymore with the sequels. 😛

“Because you are a PalpaWalker?”

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Yeah, I don’t think changing the dyad line is going to work. Neither instance of Kylo Ren (masked) saying “become” fit the sentence.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Hal 9000 said:

Yeah, I don’t think changing the dyad line is going to work. Neither instance of Kylo Ren (masked) saying “become” fit the sentence.

If splicing lines doesn’t yeld good results, maybe a sound-alike could record part of of the sentence like the “you were right” line?

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Perhaps, if poppasketti feels up to trying it out!

It’s not a huge deal, though.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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I think the “become” line would benefit a lot! If it could be done, it’d be awesome!

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I would like an opinion - does poppa’s added in line feel natural to the rest of you? It’s the “you were right” line.

I only ask because I know what line was changed, and as a result I always am anticipating the subtle differences. Maybe it sounds just fine and I’m imagining it.

I feel like this is an important thing to discuss if we’re going to try the same thing again with another line.

Exsqueeze me.