The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 357

Icecream2448 said:

Yeah, really don’t like any of this trailer music, lol. It’s way too bombastic and “This is awesome because they are winning now!!! Feel excited about what is happening!!!” when that’s not really appropriate. Really takes me out of the movie. It’s trailer music for a reason.

Yup, it removes any and all tension from the scene. The music is so absolutely triumphant while Rey is still struggling, it’s telegraphing how easily she’s about to defeat Palpy.

I feel like the best option, if possible, is to cut references to Rey’s parents being good people in TROS. Rey can want revenge for being orphaned even if her parents weren’t the best, which might even better sell her dark side arc by having her want purely selfish revenge instead of avenging good people. And her brief moment of “my parents were strong, they saved me from you” in the Palpatine confrontation doesn’t really matter since it’s Ben and the Jedi who actually help her, and not her parents’ love. Heck, she takes someone else’s last name in the final scene, so her parents suddenly having significance to her again doesn’t even fit in the context of TROS itself.

Hal 9000 said:

TLJ was surprisingly smooth also, with Snoke again being the weirdest part. It does not seem at all hinted at that he is a cloned vessel, so I prefer to think of him as a Dooku-esque recruit with a history all his own that we don’t see.

I mean, I agree that it isn’t suggested at all that he is a clone vessel. Mostly because that is such an outlandish concept, at least until you see TROS.

Rather, Snoke is very clearly exhibiting very Emperor-like speech, behaviors, and characteristics. Right down to even showing the protagonist the destruction of all of her friends in his window. Until TROS, this could just be perceived as lazy writing. But now, I look back on Snoke in TLJ as it subtly suggesting that he is either very fond of Palpatine, or he IS him (at least in part). Maybe that’s just my view though.

And yeah I also prefer that Rey’s admission remains. If you watch the scene, all she ever admits is that her parents were nobodies. Only THEN does Kylo proceed to elaborate on what he saw about them. Maybe she doesn’t protest what he is saying about them because she seriously doesn’t remember too much about them beyond that.

In TROS she recalls how her parents reassured her that she would be safe on Jaaku. If she recalled that moment in the throne room, she could just perceive it as her bad parents trying to calm her down so that they can leave.

Hal 9000 said:

I don’t plan to remove the blue smoke from poppasketti in any event, no.

Another thing is that Palpatine wanting Rey dead at the start of TROS is consistent with Snoke/Palpatine sincerely ordering her execution. His change of mind is still baffling in any event.

Pretty sure that months ago somebody outlined Palpatine’s plan but here it goes again.

1. Palpatine puts all of his effort into corrupting Ben Solo.
2. Palpatine wants Snoke to have Kylo kill Rey because he is planning on essence transferring into Kylo
3. He had already put a ton of effort into corrupting Kylo, so yet again he tells him to kill Rey.
4. Kylo realigns himself with the light, and Palpatine senses it. His new goal is to corrupt Rey and essence transfer into her.
5. She refuses. Then he discovers he can drain their dyad to restore his full strength.

Also the fact that Rey only exists because Palpatine and the Sith Eternal let Palpatine’s non-Force-sensitive clone have a natural-born child in the hopes that they would be Force-sensitive and a worthy host for Palpatine’s spirit unlike the original non-Force-sensitive clone.

Brewzter said:

Also the fact that Rey only exists because Palpatine and the Sith Eternal let Palpatine’s non-Force-sensitive clone have a natural-born child in the hopes that they would be Force-sensitive and a worthy host for Palpatine’s spirit unlike the original non-Force-sensitive clone.

Yes but clearly he wasn’t relying entirely on that. It was a Plan B. He played most of his hand with Kylo. And who wouldn’t want a piece of that “mighty Skywalker blood” anyway?

In ROTS he says that Anakin would surpass even himself (pre-multilation). So he probably realizes a Skywalker is potentially more powerful than even his own bloodline.

sherlockpotter said:

To be clear, Palpy’s plan for Rey is:

• Order Kylo to kill Rey.
• Anticipate him both trying to mow her down with his ship. But actually not want to kill her after all.

He realizes that Kylo is conflicted, but that isn’t deterring him from hoping for the best with him.

• Secretly lure Rey to him by means of…Ochi’s Dagger?

What? Rey and gang’s adventure to find Exegol was in no way orchestrated by Palpatine. There is no “lure”

• Convince her to kill him by telling her it’s what he wants?

He convinces her to kill him because he claims its the only way to stop her friends from dying.

• Send his guards to try and kill Rey in the throne room as she’s about to kill him anyway

He needs Rey to kill him out of anger and vengeance. Not as a Jedi.

• Try to kill Rey anyway once the guards fail to do so

I believe he was actually intending on torturing them into submission. Possibly kill one in the process which would then result in the other wanting to kill him out of vengeance.

• Resurrect himself…some other way, I guess?

Yes, he found out that the dyad can restore him, so all of his antics were unneeded. He only ever needed the two together.

• Rule over a galaxy that he’s completely destroyed.

Sounds like an authoritarian leader to me alright.

All of this convoluted nonsense could be avoided if his plan can be retooled to “Kill Rey because she is the last great threat to his return.”

Too boring imo

sherlockpotter said:

To be clear, Palpy’s plan for Rey is:

• Order Kylo to kill Rey.
• Anticipate him both trying to mow her down with his ship. But actually not want to kill her after all.
• Secretly lure Rey to him by means of…Ochi’s Dagger?
• Convince her to kill him by telling her it’s what he wants?
• Send his guards to try and kill Rey in the throne room as she’s about to kill him anyway
• Try to kill Rey anyway once the guards fail to do so
• Resurrect himself…some other way, I guess?
• Rule over a galaxy that he’s completely destroyed.

All of this convoluted nonsense could be avoided if his plan can be retooled to “Kill Rey because she is the last great threat to his return.”

I don’t think so?

The plan was, now that Kylo had realized his potential to be a Sith by killing Snoke, to tell Kylo to go kill Rey. If Kylo kills her, then he further deepens himself into the dark side and will eventually kill Palpatine since he killed Snoke. In this scenario, Palpatine just transfers himself into Kylo like he wanted to do with Luke in ROTJ. Palpatine wins.

The alternate plan was the other route: Rey kills Kylo instead. If she did this, she would’ve fallen to the dark side, gone to kill Palpatine to take the throne, and he would’ve transferred into her. Palpatine wins.

However, he didn’t anticipate Leia and Rey helping Ben turn back to the light side, hence why he tells Pryde “The princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plan”. So he has a new plan! Goad Rey into killing him anyway just like he tried with Luke in ROTJ, who was protected/prevented from doing so by Vader.

However, she resists, Ben joins her, so new plan again! He decides to just sap their life Force and kill them. We don’t really know what this was, although it seems to be based on the original Duel of the Fates script in which Tor Valum teaches Kylo how to sap the living Force energy from plants, so maybe he expected to prolong his life with this. But surprise! They’re a dyad, and this power can not only fully rejuvenate him, but amp him up to the most powerful he’s ever been. Final new plan! Sap the dyad energy and kill them both.

I fully understand why people are frustrated with Palpatine in this movie, but I think it’s great how convoluted it is lmao. I think it fits his character perfectly and is very in-line with his numerous convoluted plans in the prequels.

jarbear said:

One thing that kinda blows out any logic is the whole transfer thing. If there is a transfer … then … they turn into Palps AKA All the Sith/Whatever. So in a sense … it’s a take over. Even if it is not his specific consciousness … then it’s the influence of ALL the Sith, so it’s still a “win” for the Sith. Whoever get’s that transfer becomes The Sith Guy TM. So wouldn’t not matter who it is?

If Kylo slices Palps, he takes over Kylo. Now Kylo/Palps/Sith all faces Rey. Whoever wins, The Palpy/Sith All either stays or takes over. The only possible “lose” scenario is if he gets hit by his own lighting? I guess?

One of the reasons I don’t like this concept JJ and crew came up with.

It matters who it is. Of course, this once again relies on Midichlorians, but he needed the person with the most force potential to inherit the Sith spirit.

Furthermore, he needs the person killing him to be doing it out of anger and vengeance. Not as a Jedi.

It also doesn’t hurt to have the killing be more of an indirect method, yes. That would almost guarantee he couldn’t do anything.

Here are a couple quick, low-effort instances where the issue of Rey’s parents might be toned down a tad. Sorry if the visuals are going nuts, not sure what that’s about, but it’s all conceptual anyway.

https://vimeo.com/514071458/e6e79a392a

First, I cut Kylo saying that Rey’s parents chose to be nobodies “to keep her safe.” He instead just says they chose to be nobodies, which is implicit enough of some deeper truth (that he’ll reveal in two seconds anyway and that Rey seems to now remember) that we don’t need the follow-up “because they love you and were good people.” I mean, if Rey’s dad is Palpatine’s son and doesn’t want to be involved, he’d already be trying to pass as a “nobody” even if Rey didn’t exist, right? I think the result is far more ominous, and Rey’s lineage, not the love of her parents, is supposed to be the true “reveal” by the end of this whole sequence anyway.

https://vimeo.com/514071880/6877804297

Second, in the final confrontation, when Palpatine calls Rey’s parents weak, she doesn’t interrupt to imply that they were great people who she admires. Now, after Rey says she won’t give into hate, Palpatine just monologues uninterrupted. If the soundtrack audio with that cut is an issue (I don’t currently have the blu ray’s multiple audio tracks on me to isolate dialog), I think the faux-hopeful music that starts when Rey says “they were strong” could instead start when Rey says “You want me to hate but I won’t,” which would have the same effect.

Some other things that would be nice but I can’t try at the moment:

• If Rey’s parents could not tell her “be brave” and “you’ll be safe” and all that, that would be nice, though it seems hard to cut/rearrange as we need to get a visual of them in that moment. Maybe just mute/distort their voices or something, like it’s a hazy memory? Maybe it’s not even a big deal.
• Kylo actually mentions Rey’s parents being noble twice: the first is the edited clip I posted, but then he does it again later when he says “they sold you to protect you.” I don’t know if it’s possible, but I think a great way to edit this to de-emphasize Rey’s parents would be for Kylo to say “they sold you to hide you.” This means basically the same thing, but can be interpreted by the audience in potentially less loving ways; they hid Rey to try to save themselves, or they hid Rey to fight back Palpatine, or even they hid Rey because they feared her (which isn’t totally incompatible with their tearful goodbye).

Brewzter said:

I fully understand why people are frustrated with Palpatine in this movie, but I think it’s great how convoluted it is lmao. I think it fits his character perfectly and is very in-line with his numerous convoluted plans in the prequels.

Same man. Same.

jarbear said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

jarbear said:

One thing that kinda blows out any logic is the whole transfer thing. If there is a transfer … then … they turn into Palps AKA All the Sith/Whatever. So in a sense … it’s a take over. Even if it is not his specific consciousness … then it’s the influence of ALL the Sith, so it’s still a “win” for the Sith. Whoever get’s that transfer becomes The Sith Guy TM. So wouldn’t not matter who it is?

If Kylo slices Palps, he takes over Kylo. Now Kylo/Palps/Sith all faces Rey. Whoever wins, The Palpy/Sith All either stays or takes over. The only possible “lose” scenario is if he gets hit by his own lighting? I guess?

One of the reasons I don’t like this concept JJ and crew came up with.

It matters who it is. Of course, this once again relies on Midichlorians, but he needed the person with the most force potential to inherit the Sith spirit.

Furthermore, he needs the person killing him to be doing it out of anger and vengeance. Not as a Jedi.

It also doesn’t hurt to have the killing be more of an indirect method, yes. That would almost guarantee he couldn’t do anything.

Lol, although that is their rationale I’m sure … boy it doesn’t make sense. How does motive matter if there is a transfer. What was the motive of whatever Palps first went into after his fall at the DSII? that’s why the whole thing is goofy. Was there a series of Palpy clones, who hated each other, that made a long line from the DSII floating in space with spacesuits that kept slicing each other until the one on a planet or shuttle with the doors open?

Heck, you can use the rationale it wasn’t hate or vengeance for Rey, where the motivation was to save her friends. It was stop him or everyone get’s killed. Heck, you see it on her face of how sad she was and not just some angry vengeful person. It was do this or your friends die. Sith don’t care about people.

You probably won’t respond, but I still feel the need to respond to these arguments.

While Palpatine was falling, he willed his essence to escape his body before he died. He then entered a dormant clone body on Exegol. I know you will hate to hear this, but all this comes from the novelization.

You can make that argument for Rey, sure. But when Palpatine was declaring that transfer ritual, he declares that she is earning her revenge by killing him because he called for her parents to be killed. This is also why it is important that Rey cares about her parents.

sherlockpotter said:

I still don’t buy the justifications for having Kylo kill Rey. If Palpy wanted to possess Kylo, he should have just let Kylo kill him in the prologue (like Kylo intended to anyway). Plus, doesn’t he say something to the effect of “I want to possess my granddaughter?” Maybe not, I’m not sure.

You’re correct that it may have been a better plan for Palpatine to let Kylo kill him, he possesses him, and then he goes and kills Rey. But as Brewzter pointed out, “if Kylo kills her, then he further deepens himself into the dark side.” We don’t know the exact rules of essence transfer, but it’s entirely possible that Palpatine recognized Kylo was not deep enough into the dark side for the process to work. He is a very conflicted character after all.

On another note, I believe I may have found a change that all of us can agree on. The original conversation goes like this:

Rey: I haven’t come to lead the Sith. I’ve come to end them.

Palpatine: As a Jedi?

Rey: Yes.

Palpatine: No, your hatred, your anger, you want to kill me. That is what I want.

I am suggesting that the lines “As a Jedi?” and “Yes.” are removed. This is because it’s essential to differentiate the two ways that Rey was going to kill Palpatine. When Rey says that she wants to kill him as a Jedi, we are more inclined to believe her than what Palpatine claims her intentions truly are. But if she never admits to that until the finale with the force ghosts, it not only is more powerful but it suggests that her original intentions would have actually resulted in Palpatine possessing her.

Most importantly, it makes it more clear why Rey killing Palpatine later is admissible compared to before.

I would like Hal’s opinion on this change I’m suggesting.

sherlockpotter said:

It makes the Light Side/Dark Side dichotomy more apparent, true - that would be a big step up from the J.J. version. But it still doesn’t quite explain why Palpy would order her to be killed when that would ruin his entire plan.

Don’t want to get back into that argument again lol. I just explained his plan, so I will just summarize the answer to your question. Rey was his Plan B to transfer his essence into if Kylo didn’t commit himself fully to the dark side. The test to see if he would go to the dark side is if he killed Rey. Make sense?

EDIT: Realized you might be talking about him backing his crane out and having his guards attack her. In that case, he was concerned that her intentions in killing him truly were pure and Jedi-like, which would result in his actual death.

Jar Jar Bricks said:

sherlockpotter said:

It makes the Light Side/Dark Side dichotomy more apparent, true - that would be a big step up from the J.J. version. But it still doesn’t quite explain why Palpy would order her to be killed when that would ruin his entire plan.

Don’t want to get back into that argument again lol. I just explained his plan, so I will just summarize the answer to your question. Rey was his Plan B to transfer his essence into if Kylo didn’t commit himself fully to the dark side. The test to see if he would go to the dark side is if he killed Rey. Make sense?

EDIT: Realized you might be talking about him backing his crane out and having his guards attack her. In that case, he was concerned that her intentions in killing him truly were pure and Jedi-like.

I think the edit is correct. He was like, oh shit, she’s actually able to kill me without giving into anger, so he just backs off thinking “whatever, my Sovereign Protectors will kill her and then I’ll try again with Ben”