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The Rise of Skywalker: Ascendant (Released) — Page 353

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The Force did not whill their relationship to be as strong as a dyad. We’re just working with what we have here, lol.

The best ice cream is Cloud City ice cream!

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Boy, what a lot of discussion that’s taken place since I popped in last!

I guess it’s probably better to leave this alone as it is, more or less. I do wonder, Burbin, if it would prove doable to change that line as you propose. “We’ve become a dyad in the Force.” It’s a subtle thing, but would help the audience get what is happening in a way that fits in with the other pieces.

I remember wondering how that worked since they are different ages, it couldn’t be something intrinsic. I know Kylo says “become” in his first scene in TFA. Might be worth at least trying.

Snoke sure seemed to be a mere meat puppet in a cursory reading of TROS, IMHO. He’s every voice in Kylo’s head and essentially just Palpatine with a paper mask. And if that’s so, it makes little sense that Snoke seemed acutely aware of Rey and Kylo’s connection and Palpatine seems surprised by their dyad-ness. Unless the dyad thing was just like, “Oh, well I didn’t know it was THAT far.”

All this is why TROS initially made me feel like Doc Brown at the start of Back to the Future III.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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TFA: Restructured V1:

TFA: Restructured V2:

TLJ: Legendary:

TROS: Ascendant:

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Palpy/Snoke just didn’t realize it was leading towards a dyad. One hasn’t been seen in generations. I dunno.

The best ice cream is Cloud City ice cream!

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Yeah at this point I’m fairly certain the dyad budded during the interrogation scene of TFA. I seem to recall people freaking out because Rey “downloaded” Kylo’s training in the novelization of that scene. From that point, it’s up to debate whether Snoke should be the one to enhance it further, or if it should evolve on its own naturally (which is what I prefer).

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“There’s that word again, ‘dyad’…”

The best ice cream is Cloud City ice cream!

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Hal 9000 said:

I do wonder, Burbin, if it would prove doable to change that line as you propose. “We’ve become a dyad in the Force.”

I like this if possible.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

Yeah at this point I’m fairly certain the dyad budded during the interrogation scene of TFA. I seem to recall people freaking out because Rey “downloaded” Kylo’s training in the novelization of that scene. From that point, it’s up to debate whether Snoke should be the one to enhance it further, or if it should evolve on its own naturally (which is what I prefer).

The whole Dyad thing was JJ’s way to kinda fix that whole “download thing” as well as "light and dark meets up (power wise) from TLJ (just my opinion since that’s just an added bonus to me).

So I don’t disagree with you the whole Dyad thing is meant to be “there the whole time” but it gets confusing with Snoke’s “Mind Bridge” since we the audience see the “Dyadness antics” are shown after what Snoke “apparently does.” (Able to communicate visually, water droplets, etc."

I try to put myself in the seat of your “average” person watching the movie. Regardless of rationale or using “outside sources” (AKA books, etc.) to explain things isn’t really fair for the majority of the viewers. There is rationale that can be implied, IE Snoke didn’t know the full extent of the “dyad” stuff, even if he was an IMPLIED meat puppet / Palps then wouldn’t know … but it is still confusing and gives off the Plot Hole Vibe.

So TL:DR, taking out the every voice line removes any doubt of conflict on what has happened before. Still can keep the “I made Snoke” since it is still fairly ambiguous, especially with the Snoke Vats being turned into Palpy Vats.

Do NOT self-destruct!

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

Honestly, it sounds to me like people on here have two different approaches to fixing this film:

  1. Make TROS become more in line with what TLJ set up.
  2. Make TLJ become more in line with what TROS settles, and fix a couple issues with TROS here and there.

Hmm, I wonder which one we should change? The critically acclaimed, thoughtful sequel that questions deeply-held assumptions about the Star Wars universe and pushes the franchise into exciting new directions? Or the frantic, pandering mess that goes out of it’s way to retcon anything remotely interesting in the previous film and wraps up this 9-movie saga with a whimper?

Obviously I’m being snarky but I’m starting to think the best sequel trilogy is actually a sequel duology. Ben’s arc is the only thing that even comes close to working for me in TROS and that’s only because of Adam Driver’s stellar performance. Hal and DominicCobb have both done a lot to make this movie more enjoyable, but to (mis)quote Count Dooku “The movie cannot be fixed. It’s time to start over.”

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

…because Rey “downloaded” Kylo’s training in the novelization of [the interrogation] scene…

She freaking what now?

Please, let’s not make the novels mandatory reading for this trilogy. According to strictly the films, Rey and Kylo’s connection didn’t begin until TLJ; I feel we should keep it that way. The films should be able to stand on their own. (And I’m sure once Hal is done, they will be able to do just that!)

And I can absolutely get behind Burbin’s change of “We’ve become a Dyad in the Force.” The Dyad fans are happy, and it doesn’t make her “born” special. That’s a great idea!

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Hal 9000 said:

Snoke sure seemed to be a mere meat puppet in a cursory reading of TROS, IMHO. He’s every voice in Kylo’s head and essentially just Palpatine with a paper mask. And if that’s so, it makes little sense that Snoke seemed acutely aware of Rey and Kylo’s connection and Palpatine seems surprised by their dyad-ness. Unless the dyad thing was just like, “Oh, well I didn’t know it was THAT far.”

All this is why TROS initially made me feel like Doc Brown at the start of Back to the Future III.

Lol Hal, I know what you mean!

Also, despite the enormous amount of discourse lately, we’re all here because we believe that what you’ve done is way better than the original film. So thank you!

(If doing these edits doesn’t kill you, surely the frenzied debates will.)

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Oh boy, I didn’t mean to trigger people by referencing the novelization. All I’m saying is that it is physically impossible for Snoke to have kickstarted the entire dyad because according to Kylo, the effort of such projection would kill. I pointed out that portion of the novelization only because I was considering when the dyad could have truly begun, and then Snoke simply helped it grow. Of course, I don’t believe that Snoke should have anything to do with their dyad because it creates too many questions for the viewer with the strange relationship between him and Palpatine.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

It’s still clearly something that you would have to be born with. Otherwise, why wouldn’t the brotherly bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan be considered a dyad? Or between any Jedi/Sith pairing in general?

EDIT: Already know what your response is. Yes, Snoke bridging minds might cause the dyad to form, but then why hasn’t that been done before? It’s just a massive plot hole across the saga. Furthermore, Kylo says that the effort to project like that would kill. If it kills Luke, then why doesn’t it kill Snoke? This suggests that he is utilizing something that has always been present.

It can just be explained away as the ‘dyad’ being a rare occurrence in the Force, “unseen for generations”. Doesn’t mean other people’s bonds aren’t as strong, just that something about Kylo and Rey and their relationship ‘triggers’ a dyad to form between them. It’s not necessarily just Snoke’s meddling that forms the dyad, though it unmistakingly makes their relationship grow. In that way you could say the ‘dyad’ begins to form from the moment they meet. I don’t think it’s a plot hole to introduce new Force concepts, the Force shouldn’t be limited to what we’ve seen before. Snoke’s mind bridge and Luke’s Force projection were two different things, and in that sense the dyad is it’s own new concept aswell.

Hal 9000 said:

Snoke sure seemed to be a mere meat puppet in a cursory reading of TROS, IMHO. He’s every voice in Kylo’s head and essentially just Palpatine with a paper mask. And if that’s so, it makes little sense that Snoke seemed acutely aware of Rey and Kylo’s connection and Palpatine seems surprised by their dyad-ness. Unless the dyad thing was just like, “Oh, well I didn’t know it was THAT far.”

That’s why I feel it’d be better to avoid such confusions and let them be two distinct characters.

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Octorox said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

Honestly, it sounds to me like people on here have two different approaches to fixing this film:

  1. Make TROS become more in line with what TLJ set up.
  2. Make TLJ become more in line with what TROS settles, and fix a couple issues with TROS here and there.

Hmm, I wonder which one we should change? The critically acclaimed, thoughtful sequel that questions deeply-held assumptions about the Star Wars universe and pushes the franchise into exciting new directions? Or the frantic, pandering mess that goes out of it’s way to retcon anything remotely interesting in the previous film and wraps up this 9-movie saga with a whimper?

Obviously I’m being snarky but I’m starting to think the best sequel trilogy is actually a sequel duology. Ben’s arc is the only thing that even comes close to working for me in TROS and that’s only because of Adam Driver’s stellar performance. Hal and DominicCobb have both done a lot to make this movie more enjoyable, but to (mis)quote Count Dooku “The movie cannot be fixed. It’s time to start over.”

I mean, yeah, I’ll admit I’m pretty weird and in a very small minority for enjoying a decent amount of what TROS does. But I’m also pretty sure the Ascendant project was never about making a mini-film or a duology. I think what I’m trying to say here is that all of the radical changes people have been suggesting today really don’t belong here until we do a Rey nobody edit. A separate project thread, perhaps one for a duology, would be nice for these ideas as well.

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Jar Jar Bricks said:

it is physically impossible for Snoke to have kickstarted the entire dyad because according to Kylo, the effort of such projection would kill

Are you referring to when he tells Rey the effort would kill her? In the theater when Snoke revealed he did it, and when Luke later died, my assumption (and I’m sure the writer’s intent given the Dyad didn’t exist yet) was simply that projecting your image into reality for all to see is far more of a strain than a mental link between two people created by a third person. Snoke was using triple the “processing power” for his feat that Luke was, having not only his own mind at his disposal but also Kylo’s (because he’s been in his head for years) and Rey’s (possibly because Rey and Kylo were in each other’s heads in TFA).

There’s also the possibility that Snoke himself was just more powerful than Rey or Luke, and that he can effortlessly do things they can’t. But I know implying that anyone could possibly be stronger than Master Luke is a sore spot for certain fans.

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Neerb said:

Jar Jar Bricks said:

it is physically impossible for Snoke to have kickstarted the entire dyad because according to Kylo, the effort of such projection would kill

Are you referring to when he tells Rey the effort would kill her? In the theater when Snoke revealed he did it, and when Luke later died, my assumption (and I’m sure the writer’s intent given the Dyad didn’t exist yet) was simply that projecting your image into reality for all to see is far more of a strain than a mental link between two people created by a third person. Snoke was using triple the “processing power” for his feat that Luke was, having not only his own mind at his disposal but also Kylo’s (because he’s been in his head for years) and Rey’s (possibly because Rey and Kylo were in each other’s heads in TFA).

The problem is that you have to rely on assumptions in order to come up with all of that. IMO, removing that one line fixes so many problems. Snoke only admits to “stoking Ren’s conflicted soul” and knowing that he would somehow eventually get in contact with Rey so she would come to him. This way, the audience doesn’t wonder how Snoke was powerful enough to pull off such a feat, and they also don’t later become confused by Palpatine’s surprise regarding the dyad. The only thing the audience is wondering is how Kylo and Rey are able to communicate across the galaxy, which would be explained in the next film.

https://youtu.be/ikD6D9-OU1g

Of course this isn’t a TLJ edit thread so I probably shouldn’t even be sharing this. However, it is still really tied up with this movie so I feel it is necessary.

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The problem is that you have to rely on assumptions in order to come up with all of that.

For the “processing power” explanation sure, but for the pure power explanation it’s a straightforward inference from watching the movie. Kylo says to Rey “the strain would kill you,” but Snoke is clearly shown to be far stronger than Rey in their throne room encounter, and when Snoke explains in that scene that he’s been in Kylo’s mind for some time, that’s a payoff/callback to what Luke said about the night he read Ben’s thoughts, so there’s a really easy implicit answer in that Snoke is strong enough to do the thing Rey can’t and has the connection to Kylo needed to do it. The only way it becomes a “problem” is if, when Luke dies, the angry fan boy in the audience says “but Snoke couldn’t possibly be stronger than Luke,” and that is a baseless assumption.

This way, the audience doesn’t wonder how Snoke was powerful enough to pull off such a feat

This is not a problem with the movie itself. The audience doesn’t need to know how Snoke was powerful enough. It is implied in TFA and earlier in TLJ that Snoke is powerful simply as an established fact about his character, and so the reveal that he was the one doing the thing that only a very powerful person could do is a logical conclusion to the mystery.

The only thing the audience is wondering is how Kylo and Rey are able to communicate across the galaxy

Ending TLJ with no explanation for this mysterious phenomenon that the characters themselves call attention to as a mystery is a far bigger problem, as it leaves TLJ’s own story unfinished. It’s especially bad since TROS doesn’t actually answer the question; at no point in TROS is it explained how Kylo and Rey became linked, they just pointlessly and confusingly give the phenomenon a proper noun.

Ultimately I think the dyad is so poorly explained and frankly unimportant of a concept in TROS, and the mind-link in TLJ works well enough on its own, that editing TROS to fit in with TLJ makes far more sense than editing TLJ to fit with TROS, if the edit is even really necessary.

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FWIW, I think that both lines in question should stay as they are.

“It was I who bridged your minds.”
Snoke bridging their minds could honestly be a jump start of something that was going to happen anyways or a lie. And either is a fine enough explanation.

“I have been every voice you have ever heard inside your head.”
Palpatine has been manipulating Ben Solo from Exegol through Snoke (either as a meat puppet or a servant and it doesn’t matter which) and through the legacy of Vader. Either through Vader’s voice or visions from the helmet or simply through the history that’s there. “It has been I who has manipulated you through my influence with Snoke and Vader.”

TPM ROTJ ESB TFA TLJ TROS ROTS ANH SOLO RO ATOC
TFA:R https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/TFA-A-Gentle-Restructure-Released/id/50117
TLJ:R https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Last-Jedi-Rekindled-Released-V3-UPDATE/id/61939
TROS:A https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/The-Rise-of-Skywalker-Ascendant-WIP/id/71835/page/1

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Neerb said:

Ending TLJ with no explanation for this mysterious phenomenon that the characters themselves call attention to as a mystery is a far bigger problem, as it leaves TLJ’s own story unfinished. It’s especially bad since TROS doesn’t actually answer the question; at no point in TROS is it explained how Kylo and Rey became linked, they just pointlessly and confusingly give the phenomenon a proper noun.

The thing about Star Wars is that the movies are supposed to tell one story through the entire trilogy. Of course the sequel trilogy miserably fails at doing this. But my point is that leaving something up to interpretation at the end of one particular film is not as big of an issue as you say it is since it is one story across three movies.

As for TROS not answering the phenomena, I think that’s kind of the point. I like the dyad concept because of its mystical and unexplainable aspect. It’s like the Force knew that allowing a dyad between these two individuals was going to result in bringing balance back.

“The Force works in mysterious ways”

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I just don’t get how going out of our way to make TLJ worse, without improving TROS at all, makes any sense. It’s competely kneecapping the narrative core of a story, the big twist reveal at the film’s climax, just to make some completely unnecessary unexplained lore mumbo jumbo the tiniest bit more palatable.

It’s like the Force knew that allowing a dyad between these two individuals was going to result in bringing balance back.

That’s just as big of an out-of-movie assumption as anything else that’s been brought up. It takes no more effort to assume that Palps wasn’t literally controlling Snoke as a meat puppet and that the voices line was more about how he’s influenced Kylo’s life, or that Snoke bridging their minds was only the first step in forming the dyad and that Palpatine knowing they can Skype isn’t the same as Palpatine knowing he can eat their souls.

Frankly a lot of this stuff can come down to Occam’s Razor on the audience’s part. If Snoke bridging their minds and Palpatine not knowing they’re a dyad are both established fact, which they are, then the logical conclusion an audience member must come to is that either Palpatine didn’t have 1:1 control over Snoke or that a “dyad” has a deeper aspect to it than just the mind link.

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I hate to respond with something that may sound terse, because this is some good and insightful discussion on the finer points.

If I still had TLJ in front of me I imagine I may remove the line about Snoke bridging their minds, but I’ll just keep it in mind in case anything else ever compels me to revisit it again.

But I probably will leave the relevant TROS lines alone.

Well done. I will disengage self-destruct initiative.

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Neerb said:

I just don’t get how going out of our way to make TLJ worse, without improving TROS at all, makes any sense. It’s competely kneecapping the narrative core of a story, the big twist reveal at the film’s climax, just to make some completely unnecessary unexplained lore mumbo jumbo the tiniest bit more palatable.

There is still a twist there. The twist is that Snoke admits he was the one making Kylo seem redeemable. So Rey fell for a trap.

That’s just as big of an out-of-movie assumption as anything else that’s been brought up. It takes no more effort to assume that Palps wasn’t literally controlling Snoke as a meat puppet and that the voices line was more about how he’s influenced Kylo’s life, or that Snoke bridging their minds was only the first step in forming the dyad and that Palpatine knowing they can Skype isn’t the same as Palpatine knowing he can eat their souls.

There is no explanation given for how Anakin Skywalker becomes the “Chosen One” and gets all of his midichlorians. Of course, in Hal’s edits there are no midichlorians, but the whole Chosen One shtick still stands. These sorts of things that involve a strange aspect of the Force do not necessarily need to be given an explanation like “Snoke did it”.

It’s why George Lucas opted to not have Palpatine admit that he was involved in the conception of Anakin (which was in the original script if you didn’t know). It doesn’t need to be explained.

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If it’s okay to have vague mystical concepts with no explanation, then what’s wrong with leaving it as-is and the “dyad” referring to something more than the mind-bridging? Not everything needs a “Snoke did it” explanation, but “Snoke did it” is the explanation for the mind bridging, so the dyad must be something deeper than just mind-linking if you’re assuming Palpatine knew everything Snoke knew. Heck, Luke projected himself too, so why wouldn’t Luke be a “dyad” with everyone on Crait? He also saw Kylo in the hut, so were Luke, Kylo, and Rey a three-way dyad?

The dyad concept is not being improved by making TLJ’s story worse, because TROS still never tells us exactly what a dyad is. Undermining TLJ based on assumptions about what a dyad might be, assumptions which are logically incorrect anyway given what has been established in canon, just doesn’t sound worth the damage it does.

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Kylo appeared in front of Luke because the dyad includes the ability of material exchange also demonstrated in TROS. If anything, that should be enough to prove that whatever “Snoke did” included material exchange, which is quite frankly just ridiculous. So obviously there is more to the story.

Also, you seem to be ignoring my point that there is still a twist revealed by Snoke: he orchestrated Kylo appearing vulnerable in order to lure Rey in. The mind link is not necessary for that twist to work. Nothing is being undermined.

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Kylo appeared in front of Luke because the dyad includes the ability of material exchange

So when Luke appeared in front of everyone on Crait, that was because of a dyad? The dyad as a concept didn’t exist when TLJ was written, yet water splashed on Kylo’s face in one of his conversations with Rey. I’m just not getting how the word “dyad,” with no further elaboration at all in TROS, explains anything that TLJ didn’t already. The only reason “Snoke did it” sounds implausible to you but “a dyad did it” doesn’t is because of your own assumptions about Snoke that TLJ as-written frankly doesn’t seem to support.

he orchestrated Kylo appearing vulnerable in order to lure Rey in

I’m not sure how that could in any way be credited to Snoke if, in your version, he had nothing to do with the mind-bridging. What exactly was he “orchestrating” and how?

Kylo seemed vulnerable to Rey because of the conversations they had, and they continue to have those conversations after Snoke dies. Are you implying that Kylo is acting out of character throughout the first half the movie because Snoke is mind controlling him?

This all just seems like a lot of hoops to jump through when the easiest and least-damaging options would be:

  1. Let the audience assume that Palpatine doesn’t 1:1 control Snoke and/or the dyad isn’t purely the mental connection, which is what the theatrical versions of the movies do and what Hal plans to do.
    or
  2. Tweak the “voices” line in TROS to completely remove Palpatine 1:1 controlling Snoke as possible assumption.

I’d personally like to remove the word “dyad” from TROS entirely if it’s such a big problem for too many people. Just cut Kylo’s lines in the hangar, then in the soul-sucking scene just have Palpatine do it intentionally and not pause with surprise. But that might be too dramatic for Hal’s cut.