Original Trilogy Edits - some changes are justified

SparkySywer said:

HarrisHolt said:

Like when they knocked down some walls in the Cloud City.

I feel very strongly about this.

Irvin Kershner chose to make it so the sets got more and more constricted and claustrophobic as the Empire closes in on the Rebels, to give the audience that same feeling of claustrophobia. Then George Lucas comes in and adds these CGI windows that don’t even look right, and mucks it all up.

For someone who moans about original visions so much, it’s pretty ironic that he disrespects Kershner’s original vision.

The discourse around this change can get so weird, too. It’s as if people think the lack of windows was an accident or something. Someone even told me once that there wasn’t any windows because of a technological limitation making ESB. They do realize there have been windows in movies since 1895, right? Hell, the unaltered cut of ESB had windows, just less of them.

Yes, there have been windows in movies from the very beginning, just no windows showing a sprawling city in the clouds that couldn’t possibly exist in real life. The original concept art shows windows everywhere on Cloud City, they just could only have very simple tiny windows with 1980 effects technology. It’s a matter of technical limitations, not any attempt to create a “claustrophobic feeling”. That’s the reason why the Cloud City windows are some of my favorite changes, even if they are applied inconsistently.

HarrisHolt said:

I know a lot of hardcore fans of the original Star Wars are very picky on it being the same way it was when it was released, and I completely understand, but some edits are completely justified. Like when they knocked down some walls in the Cloud City. Or when they replaced that horrible Palpatine character with the well known Ian McDiarmid Palpatine. Or when they fixed the lightsaber shots in the original movie to replace the original reflective material shots which didn’t always work in some shots. Just FYI, I am not dissing the original edits, I am just stating my opinion.

I think this type of argument usually misses the big Max Rebo in the room. That likely nobody would care how many changes George makes, SE releases made available, or how many changing reasons or lies he comes up with to justify further changes to previous changes; it is suppressing the original cuts that is the main issue.

Having the original cuts be released alongside whatever Special Edition cut George wanted to release every few years and there probably wouldn’t be much of a problem; in the best possible quality and QA, of course.

Film history preserved. In the latest home format available over time, alongside George’s latest SE version. Everyone happy.

Or simply release every version: the original cuts, the 1997SE, 2004SE, 2011SE, 2019SE. Every fan would be happy with that too, and the $$$ for Lucasfilm would be rolling in. Through physical media sales, or Disney+ subscriptions.

That is good news for Cinderella. Maybe Lucasfilm should hand it out to a number of companies to see which can do the best restoration job for the unaltered OT? Disney included? Or just give it to Disney to do, they could do with the good publicity and the reportedly the money too!

I was wrong with what I said in my previous post above. Something was bugging me about it but I couldn’t remember what it was, and then it finally came around back to me.

People shouldn’t be able to alter others films. Only the director should be able to do that. According to George Lucas himself!
 

From category “39. Who made the Original Trilogy films…? Whose are they to alter…?” of oojason’s thread:

George Lucas: Star Wars Creator, Unreliable Narrator & Time Travelling Revisionist…
 

'An abridged screenshot from JW Rinzler’s ‘The Making Of Episode III’ book; a quoted conversation between Frank Oz and George Lucas…

^ George Lucas: “Seriously, that’s why I’m a member of the Film Foundation (filmmakers for film preservation). A director should be able to change his films - but nobody else.”

At the time of above conversation George Lucas had already made changes to directors Irvin Kershner’s ‘Empire Strikes Back’, and Richard Marquand’s ‘Return Of The Jedi’ - and would also make go on to make further additional changes to both films.

Neither the Empire Strikes Back or Return Of The Jedi are available as their respective directors intended, or indeed made, on a modern and quality digital format.’

There’s more information in that category talking about whose films they are: ESB being Kershner’s, ROTJ being Marquand’s.

So that’s a big “no” on the claim that “some changes are justified”.

JadedSkywalker said:

I know Lucasfilm usually does their own in house stuff, but they should have the people who restored Cinderella restore the OT theatrical cuts. Hand it off to Disney. For the first time that movie looks like film again in 4K. They should do that as little DNR as possible, and include the original audio. Just remove the garbage mattes but no other fixes.

That would be cool to see.

It also seemed that Lucasfilm may have their own OT theatrical cut scan, going on what some people say who watched the recent Icons Unearthed documentary. A small number of scenes appeared in their pre-1997 format in that doc. You have to wonder, or hope, that Lucasfilm or Disney have a scan ready for release. Or at least for internal use, and for highlighting that original theatrical work.

SparkySywer said:

HarrisHolt said:

Like when they knocked down some walls in the Cloud City.

I feel very strongly about this.

Irvin Kershner chose to make it so the sets got more and more constricted and claustrophobic as the Empire closes in on the Rebels, to give the audience that same feeling of claustrophobia. Then George Lucas comes in and adds these CGI windows that don’t even look right, and mucks it all up.

For someone who moans about original visions so much, it’s pretty ironic that he disrespects Kershner’s original vision.

The discourse around this change can get so weird, too. It’s as if people think the lack of windows was an accident or something. Someone even told me once that there wasn’t any windows because of a technological limitation making ESB. They do realize there have been windows in movies since 1895, right? Hell, the unaltered cut of ESB had windows, just less of them.

For budget or time constraints, especially VFX shots, I can see why they went with significantly fewer windows on set over the original concept designs for Cloud City. Yet I do think there is the claustrophobic element to it as well, this was meant to be a prison for life for Leia and Chewbacca to spend out their days, so I understand wanting that limited small window or windowless feeling to it.

I think Kershner briefly talked about this in one of the commentaries, maybe the laserdisc commentary for Empire? I’d have to check to be certain.

They are also meant to be ill at ease at Cloud City, something is meant to “feel off” about the place, unsettling even, which is obviously revealed later.
 

Edit. I had a listen to the Empire laserdisc commentary but couldn’t find Kershner talking about it. So I’ve probably mixed it up with something else, or it is a false memory.

HarrisHolt said:

I know a lot of hardcore fans of the original Star Wars are very picky on it being the same way it was when it was released, and I completely understand, but some edits are completely justified. Like when they knocked down some walls in the Cloud City. Or when they replaced that horrible Palpatine character with the well known Ian McDiarmid Palpatine. Or when they fixed the lightsaber shots in the original movie to replace the original reflective material shots which didn’t always work in some shots. Just FYI, I am not dissing the original edits, I am just stating my opinion.

Picky? They just want to see the original cuts in the best possible quality and format they can.

That George Lucas made more and more changes, and does not even release some of the Special Editions on HD, or UHD, is the problem.

Or that George Lucas made changes to other directors’ movies, despite the quotes from George posted above, and the directors’ original cuts are not available on HD or UHD either.

If George made available all of the different cuts of the films it would not be a such a problem.

Why not give fans the option to watch the cuts of the films they grew up with? Or for fans to be able to see the various other cuts that others got to watch and experience?