Sign In

kk650's Regraded Raiders of the Lost Ark (blanket yellow tint removed from blu-ray) — Page 2

Author
Time

Hi kk650,

I’m new to this site. Where Can I get the links to your awesome regrades

Author
Time

kk650 said:

That is definately better than the previous colour matching attempt but it is not indistuinguishable in terms of colour/image dynamics, the picture on the left looks fine but the picture on the right still looks unnatural in terms of fleshtones, Indiana’s eyes in particular look very bad on the right and not at all like the picture on the left. The only thing worse than getting the fleshtones looking unnatural is having the eyes looking unnatural.

I’ve always found what your colour matching tool can do very impressive but unless it can match the colours and image dynamics 100%, there is a margin of error of the algorithm making up colours/changing image dynamics that I personally would not be able to tolerate. If I were to create a release using that tool, I would never release it unless it was 100% accurate or the difference was so negligable that I could not tell the difference looking with my own eyes on my 30 inch monitor.

I just heard about this little difference of opinion and wanted to see what it was about. I can understand most of the posts, but this one was really off the wall. I’ve sat for the last 5 minutes trying to find some aspect of the two images that was different in terms of color. I can’t see a single difference.

I have to agree with DrDre on this one. Your correction is too blue. Yes, your fleshtones look great, but at the cost of the rest of the image. This has been very indicative of a lot of the corrections I’ve seen on around here. I’ve even had discussions with DrDre when some of his color corrections have seemed to favor yellow unnecessarily. It is easy, especially when you are faced with a color issue that you can clearly see and are trying to fix, to take it too far the other way. I don’t like the Despecialized Edition because I think Harmy overcorrected to remove the magenta tint in ANH. I’ve found many of my own corrections attempts to have gone too far yellow or blue when trying to fix the skin tones and other colors of ANH.

I’ve spent a lot of time, long before attempting color corrections on films, trying to restore old photos that have turned yellow or pink with age. The yellow ones are a case where the finishing coating has turned yellow with age, tinting the entire picture. I found, much to my dismay, that you can’t just pull the yellow and get a good result. The yellow tint obscures some of the natural yellow and removing it removes the natural yellow. So by removing all of the yellow tint, you have likely removed some natural yellow, particularly from the lighter areas.

Probably the most useful thing I have studied to try to teach myself color correction on films has been to study real life. I was as intent as many about making ANH yellow until I was in a meeting one day and actually looked at the faces across the table. I found that they were pinker than my mind had thought and their skin tones varied considerably. So don’t take anyone’s word, but take the time to go out and look at things in the real world. Find some white buildings in the sun and see what they look like. Look at people in a large hall, a classroom. Get a feel for the colors. Don’t let a feeling of yellow dictate how you remove the yellow. Find a way to remove it and have the result feel natural. Colors have to be adjusted carefully or you can easily have something that looks bad. And it might not look bad to you at first, but live with it and look at it critically. That is why we post screen shots - to get feedback as to how others feel it looks. When you have more than one person making the same observation, you might want to take another look at how you got your result, and how you can get the fix you want and make it better.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Everybody is welcome to their opinion. Just because you and DrDre agree on something doesn’t make it fact.

I can see the difference between the original 35mm image and the colour matched shot, the fact that you and DrDre cannot tells me that either your monitor is not as sensitive to differences in colour/image dynamics as mine or you simply don’t have the experience I do colour grading. I have created over 200 releases and with each release I have learnt something new. That experience adds up and gives you insight that others less experienced may not have. There is a big difference between analysing single frames out of context and actually regrading a whole film so it looks good the whole way through.

When you remove a blanket tint of course shot by shot colour inconsistencies will increase, because the blanket tints were added in part to hide said inconsistencies, but targeting single frames you don’t like because they are not completely colour balanced and arguing the whole release needs to be redone is silly, a whole film is never going to have every shot completely colour balanced so the sky always has the same colour in every shot, consecutive shots are often shot at different times with different lighting conditions and therefore sunlight and skies changing colours between consecutive shots. That is just a logistical reality to shooting a film. That is why it is more important to regrade films by watching said film in motion, rather than regrading from screencaps, that way you can see the bigger picture and get a much better idea of colours and especially the image dynamics in motion.

Like I said to DrDre, watch the actual release in motion rather than judging from single frames and perhaps your opinion may change. I am very happy with how this release looks in motion and I have no plans to change it in the near future. If you or DrDre want to discuss further with me how Raiders of the Lost Ark looks best, create your own releases and then we can compare how each of our releases looks in motion and have a very interesting discussion.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I’ve watched the release, and the magenta color cast is equally obvious in motion as it is in the frames themselves. It permiates every frame. It’s baffling to me how your “experienced” eye can somehow detect negligeable color differences in my frame, yet be blind to an obvious color balancing issue in your own release. This is the last I will say on the subject, since it is obvious I’m wasting my time here.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

DrDre, I have already told you that is what the film looks like with all the blanket yellow tint removed. Remember what I said before about not shooting the messenger? Take up your complaints with Paramount Pictures, the studio that released the blu-ray.

I’m an innocent party here, the purpose of this release is to make the Raiders of the Lost Ark blu-ray look as appealing as possible, not recreate the colour schemes of the WOWOW or 35mm LPP release which are very different to the blu-ray both in terms of colour and image dynamics.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

kk650 said:

DrDre, I have already told you that is what the film looks like with all the blanket yellow tint removed. Remember what I said before about not shooting the messenger? Take up your complaints with Paramount Pictures, the studio that released the blu-ray, i’m an innocent party here.

No, your methodology is flawed (in this instance). When clouds are pink something is amiss. The same scan of the negative was used for the 2011 master, which was created a year before the bluray release. It does not have a blanket yellow tint, magenta tint or any other blanket color cast. I can’t believe you would blame the professionals with a ton more experience than you or I, rather than your own process. Any release that does not have extremely severe color degrading can be balanced, or matched to a balanced release, as I’ve amply demonstrated in the color matching, and color balancing threads.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Agree to disagree DrDre.

I can see the blanket yellow tint on the blu-ray clearly and removed all of it. You can’t see it and that’s fine. I’m not going to try to convince you of something you can’t see for yourself.

This is the last thing i’ll be saying on this matter until you create your own release and we can compare the two releases in motion. Then we can discuss this further if you wish.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

kk650 said:

Agree to disagree DrDre.

I can see the blanket yellow tint on the blu-ray clearly and removed all of it. You can’t see it and that’s fine. I’m not going to try to convince you of something you can’t see for yourself.

This is the last thing i’ll be saying on this matter until you create your own release and we can compare the two releases in motion. Then we can discuss further if you wish.

Fine, you don’t need to convince me, as color balance is actually fairly well defined mathematically, as are blanket tints. If you had read the scientific papers on the subject like I have, you might know this. I like to use objective measures for balance, as your eyes can decieve you.

Anyway, agree to disagree. I generally like your work, and I see no reason to start a feud on the basis of a single release.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Clearly the only way to settle this issue is for both DrDre and KK650 to do a new regrade of the movie that needs it most, The Fellowship of the Ring BD EE, from scratch. He who removes the green tint and restores this film to its genuine beautiful colour palette will be the true King of The Regrade.

So say we all.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Nick66 said:

Clearly the only way to settle this issue is for both DrDre and KK650 to do a new regrade of the movie that needs it most, The Fellowship of the Ring BD EE, from scratch. He who removes the green tint and restores this film to its genuine beautiful colour palette will be the true King of The Regrade.

So say we all.

haha I would be up for that! Fellowship of the Ring is my favourite fantasy film of all time and in my top three films of all time.

That was a really tough regrade though, both in terms of colour and image dynamics, wouldn’t want to have to start on that one from scratch.

So say we all. 😉

(Man, that was such a good series, there’s been nothing like it since IMHO)

Author
Time

kk650 said:

Nick66 said:

Clearly the only way to settle this issue is for both DrDre and KK650 to do a new regrade of the movie that needs it most, The Fellowship of the Ring BD EE, from scratch. He who removes the green tint and restores this film to its genuine beautiful colour palette will be the true King of The Regrade.

So say we all.

haha I would be up for that! Fellowship of the Ring is my favourite fantasy film of all time and in my top three films of all time.

That was a really tough regrade though, both in terms of colour and image dynamics, wouldn’t want to have to start on that one from scratch.

So say we all. 😉

(Man, that was such a good series, there’s been nothing like it since IMHO)

OK, you don’t need to start from scratch. Just an upgrade to the work you’ve already done would be nice. 😉

Author
Time

500 Quatloos on the newcomer!!!

KK650…WHAT SAY YOU?

WHAT SAY YOU!!!

Author
Time

Nick66 said:

500 Quatloos on the newcomer!!!

KK650…WHAT SAY YOU?

WHAT SAY YOU!!!

I SAY GAME ON! 😄

Author
Time

kk650 said:

Everybody is welcome to their opinion. Just because you and DrDre agree on something doesn’t make it fact.

I can see the difference between the original 35mm image and the colour matched shot, the fact that you and DrDre cannot tells me that either your monitor is not as sensitive to differences in colour/image dynamics as mine or you simply don’t have the experience I do colour grading. I have created over 200 releases and with each release I have learnt something new. That experience adds up and gives you insight that others less experienced may not have. There is a big difference between analysing single frames out of context and actually regrading a whole film so it looks good the whole way through.

When you remove a blanket tint of course shot by shot colour inconsistencies will increase, because the blanket tints were added in part to hide said inconsistencies, but targeting single frames you don’t like because they are not completely colour balanced and arguing the whole release needs to be redone is silly, a whole film is never going to have every shot completely colour balanced so the sky always has the same colour in every shot, consecutive shots are often shot at different times with different lighting conditions and therefore sunlight and skies changing colours between consecutive shots. That is just a logistical reality to shooting a film. That is why it is more important to regrade films by watching said film in motion, rather than regrading from screencaps, that way you can see the bigger picture and get a much better idea of colours and especially the image dynamics in motion.

Like I said to DrDre, watch the actual release in motion rather than judging from single frames and perhaps your opinion may change. I am very happy with how this release looks in motion and I have no plans to change it in the near future. If you or DrDre want to discuss further with me how Raiders of the Lost Ark looks best, create your own releases and then we can compare how each of our releases looks in motion and have a very interesting discussion.

I do agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but on several points you are finding fault where there is none. DrDre’s matching of the BR to the 35 mm did produce very tiny differences. But when I examined it in detail, the eyes turned out lighter and more blue - the very direction you say it needs to go. Eyes are a very subjective thing. Human vision is not driven by exact colors, but by perceived colors. Your brain can falsely identify two different colors as the same and two identical colors as different depending on how they are viewed. Going back to the pixel RBG data is the most reliable for determining if you have overdone a color correction. I have been correcting photos for more than 20 years and it is so easy to take a correction too far. Neither DrDre or myself is saying that the original isn’t too yellow, but we are both saying that how you removed the yellow did not work… not in this case. The results are not up to your normal standards. I’ve seen your work and on this occasion, there has just been something off. Believe it or not, we are trying to help you. I do tend you lean too far toward blues, but this is the first time that I have felt it went too far. The walls of the buildings was the shot that jumped out at me the most. The pink of the walls does not look natural. The warmth of the blu-ray would be preferable. Whatever you did to remove the blanket yellow damaged the highlights. Perhaps it is because it was applied differently that other projects you have worked on. The damage may be there from the addition of the yellow and taking it out reveals it. Rather than leave it damaged, tweaking the yellow removal process would produce much more appealing results.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I would accept the challenge, but my time is limited and I’m trying to work on Star Wars (I am starting over on the BR color correcting project). I’ve considered tackling FOTR myself, but my method would involve utilizing the theatrical cut BR and the EE DVD to restore the colors rather than color correcting all of the EE BR itself. I am also shy of hard drive space.

Author
Time

Hey KK650, just checked out Raiders Regraded. I loved it. I was wondering have you given thought to do a regrade treatment to Temple and Crusade??? It would be cool to see. Can’t wait for your other regrades.

All my life as I looked away to the future, to the horizon. Never in my mind did I know where I was, what I was doing.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I just want to see a regrade which sticks as close to the original intention with the filmmakers the literal first time the completed 35mm film was shown. Maybe the WoWoW or whatever release and that IBTech no fade print? Similar to how awesome the remasters for Lawrence of Arabia, My Fair Lady, and Spartacus have been. Match the 35mm as close as possible.
Still keeping the legit Blu-ray disc set, the DVD release set with different special features, those other customs, and yup. Still heavily prefer Indiana Jones over Star Wars.

To me, the DrDre version more closely recreates the cinematic feeling and the kk650 is more adjusted including the extremely unneeded DNR. I really hate DNR and heavily prefer film grain all the time.

Temple of Doom and The Last Crusade Blu-ray disc releases should be fine. Excellent film grain too.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

ZaneFlare92 said:

Hey KK650, just checked out Raiders Regraded. I loved it. I was wondering have you given thought to do a regrade treatment to Temple and Crusade??? It would be cool to see. Can’t wait for your other regrades.

Very glad to hear that 😃

I have given thought to taking on Temple and Crusade. I don’t think the difference would be as dramatic as with Raiders of the Lost Ark but from the screencaps i’ve seen, the margin for improvement is definately enough to make it worthwhile IMHO.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

RayRogers said:
To me, the DrDre version more closely recreates the cinematic feeling and the kk650 is more adjusted including the extremely unneeded DNR. I really hate DNR and heavily prefer film grain all the time.

No DNR was added to my release. The main source of my regrade was the 4k remastered blu-ray of Raiders of the Lost Ark, the highest quality official release out there. The WOWOW hd transport stream doesn’t really compare IMHO, the 4k release looks like film while the WOWOW release looks very artificial/digital. The situation is very similar to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly Mondo 4k remastered release that looks far more filmic and beautiful to me compared to the very digital looking Mondo release.

As for DrDre’s Raiders of the Lost Ark release, as far as i’m aware that doesn’t exist yet, all i’ve seen are screencaps for a potential future release here on originaltrilogy.com

Author
Time
 (Edited)

kk650 said:

RayRogers said:
To me, the DrDre version more closely recreates the cinematic feeling and the kk650 is more adjusted including the extremely unneeded DNR. I really hate DNR and heavily prefer film grain all the time.

No DNR was added to my release. The main source of my regrade was the 4k remastered blu-ray of Raiders of the Lost Ark, the highest quality official release out there. The WOWOW hd transport stream doesn’t really compare IMHO, the 4k release looks like film while the WOWOW release looks very artificial/digital. The situation is very similar to The Good, the Bad and the Ugly Mondo 4k remastered release that looks far more filmic and beautiful to me compared to the very digital looking Mondo release.

I don’t agree, that this is actually the case. The WOWOW suffers from more digital artifacts due to the compression of the HDTV stream, but is actually based on a 4K master created by the same company who did Temple of Doom and Last Crusade, all of which were done in 2011 for the 30th anniversary of ROTLA. The main difference between those two masters (aside from color, and some digital changes) is, that the official bluray release has much heavier DNR, compared to the WOWOW. A frame by frame comparison shows very clearly that a lot of detail has been scrubbed away.

I once matched both the bluray and the WOWOW to the 2003 DVD, and the difference is quite obvious:

WOWOW:

Bluray:

DVD:

WOWOW matched to DVD:

Bluray matched to DVD:

You just have to look at Indy’s clothes, the water, and the smoke to see, that a lot of detail is missing, and heavy DNR was applied to the bluray. Even the DVD has more detail in the water, and there are many shots that are worse. Now, obviously some will prefer the heavy DNR, or are bothered by the compression artifacts in the WOWOW, but I do not agree that it is more film like, as the 35mm scan in many instances actually has more detail than either the WOWOW or the bluray, since even the WOWOW has loss of detail due to DNR.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I don’t know, I’ve got both and the 4k remastered blu-ray in motion looks much more filmlike to my eyes than the WOWOW release.

Sure, there might be some places where the 4k remastered blu-ray is softer than the WOWOW release but I’m sure there are places where the WOWOW release is softer than the 4k remastered blu-ray. In terms of how the two transfers feel when you’re watching them in motion, its night and day, the 4k remastered blu-ray feels like film while the WOWOW feels digital.

I personally dislike the colours of the WOWOW release as well, in particular the fleshtones, but of course everybody will have their own preference about that. I think warmer colours work better for this film.

In terms of which version to use as the source for a release between the WOWOW and 4k remastered blu-ray, regardless of what colour choices you plan to make, I think its a nobrainer, it has to be 4k remastered blu-ray, in motion it just looks more like film.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

kk650 said:

I don’t know, I’ve got both and the 4k remastered blu-ray in motion looks much more filmlike to my eyes than the WOWOW release.

Well, that’s personal preference of course, as I feel the WOWOW looks more film like, since it has more negative grain, and I feel the bluray has that plastic look consistent with heavy DNR.

Sure, there might be some places where the 4k remastered blu-ray is softer than the WOWOW release but I’m sure there are places where the WOWOW release is softer than the 4k remastered blu-ray. In terms of how the two transfers feel when you’re watching them in motion, its night and day, the 4k remastered blu-ray feels like film while the WOWOW feels digital.

Having compared a large number of frames for both releases, I haven’t come across a shot where the WOWOW is softer, yet. Here’s another example, where I matched both the WOWOW and the bluray to the DVD.

WOWOW matched to DVD:

Bluray matched to DVD:

However, like you said, it’s a matter of preference.

Author
Time

Out of curiosity, are any of you using monitors calibrated via 3DLUT in a light controlled room? If so, what are you monitoring your video feeds with and how do you know what you’re looking at is accurate?

Also, with regards to the Blu vs the HDTV cap: from what I can see on caps-a-holic, it doesn’t seem that the Blu-Ray capture is generally lacking in detail (barring some shots) insomuch as it simply has had the grain removed and the contrast lessened (contrast effects perceived “detail”). Additionally, the HDTV capture’s grain is larger and has horrid compression artifacts. I’d wager that, if the blu was re-grained and regraded properly, it’d look better than the HDTV capture or print-scan.