¤ THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK ¤ The "OPTIMUM EDITION" Score Reconstruction, Remixing & Restoration Version 3 (Released) — Page 10

ABC said:

You know, I'm not a specialist of this score and I don't mean to be. I only made the work that was obvious to me had to be done. I'm about to forget this entirely... I leave the final word to the specialists ! ;)

I do think you can call yourself a specialist on this score;) you're the one who has listened and worked with this score a very long time!, so don't be shy;). I love what you're doing, keep up the good work!

Thanks for the heads up guys ! ;)

EyeShotFirst said:

Every time I edit music, the highs are way too high.

 There are many ways to give relief to the highs and it needs sometimes a lot of subtlety. Lifting the highs is not always the good way to make them longer or richer. Paradoxal !

Also sometime you need to cut them more or less to remove what's useless, let's say noise, taking care to keep what makes the richness of the sound. Then you'll be able to measure them more precisely from this new master. However, I only used such a technic with the SW scores. It's like bending a bar of iron in a way, then in an other. But it's really important to catch right away (or to visualize) what makes its true richness. Shiny recordings are treacherous.

Just be aware of what the recording may give, instead of focusing on what you want it to give. It's like living with nature so to speak. ;)

msycamore said:

Your new sample of it sounds sooo goood!

... New sample ? Where have you downloaded such a thing ? In the sample section ?

The only new samples are the 3 new tracks form Disc 1.

I guess that's because you haven't listened to it enough before. Anyway I confirm: the more you listen to it, the more you appreciate it ! ;)

For a little historic of the "Finale/End" Title on my edits:

• V1, V2: 1st edit/remix
• V3: very slight EQ change + balance correction
• V4: Back to V2

So in a way you're right, this old sample is the new version ! :)

---

Just to let you know, the balance correction I made on the RSO tracks have been removed on V4 on:

"the Asteroïd Field", "Yoda's Theme" and "Finale / End Titles".

And kept on:

"The Imperial March", "Finale / End Title" (Film Version, untouched since V3).

... Please tell me about "The Rebels Escape" next time ! :)

ABC said: 

So in a way you're right, this old sample is the new version ! :)

Yeah, I've taken a little break from this score, but now my appetite for this legendary score is starting to come back again;) I will give your three new samples a comment later...

Main Title/The Ice Planet Hoth, as before this track sounds so powerful when you compare it with the SE it's not even funny, great editing and I think you have improved the SE portion so it blends better with the other sources.

The Wampa's Lair, very good! This one is flawless, love your subtle  approach with the LP layers, when looking at your notes, what you have done must be a pain!! 

The Rebels Escape Again, This one really comes to life and gets better dynamic with your equalization and LP layer and I think it shows the most improvement of your new samples, beautifully done with the missing bit of music restored.

Can I ask you why you choose to work with "Jedi Master Revealed" from the SE? to me it sound much better on the Anthology's track "City In The Clouds", one more thing, will you include the 20TH Century Fox fanfare? (John Williams & LSO recorded the new version for this film after all) just curious. Anyway, can't wait to listen to the complete score with your treatment done to it, great job!)

msycamore said:

The Wampa's Lair, very good! This one is flawless, love your subtle  approach with the LP layers, when looking at your notes, what you have done must be a pain!!

Of course I didn't edit the little parts bit per bit. The real pain was that the speed was slightly different on the many edited parts from the LP (second half).

The Rebels Escape Again, This one really comes to life and gets better dynamic with your equalization and LP layer...

And mostly thanks to the channels shifting, believe it or not... The tries with the LP layer helped me a lot finding this out. I' m sure there are many tracks  wich have suffered of that, as with my tries with the Anthology version of "City In The Clouds" wich revealed the hidden horn that was totally unheared before. I made many tries on several cues but though it looked sometimes a little better I droped them being not sure it was right. I only was lucky with this one.

The frequencies are so full of informations due to the resonnance of the recording that they surely missed a bunch of tracks when putting together the many orchestral parts through the multi-track transfers. That explains why the Anthology sounds a bit "muddy" and weack, but in the same time shiny (a way to "improve" the noise and this muddy side)...

... That explains also what the SE has tried: to get rid of this richness, mostly through compression, to make a virtualy precise sound.

Next to those, the RSO multi-track transfers look like a nice bunch in wich accuracy is not always at the rendez-vous, but no attempt through weird processing where made to hide the lacks.

Can I ask you why you choose to work with "Jedi Master Revealed" from the SE? to me it sound much better on the Anthology's track "City In The Clouds"...

"Jedi Master Revealed" looks better on the Anthology at first glance, but after re-EQ of both, seeing what they were made of, the SE was better quality, had more substance and a better depht. Here again the Antho is more "shiny" but it's only a "package", and is also far much noisy than the SE once the highs were cut on both.

 one more thing, will you include the 20TH Century Fox fanfare? (John Williams & LSO recorded the new version for this film after all) just curious.

I recently borrowed the first print of the SE to my brother and so I rode indeed the fanfare has been especially re-recorded by the LSO on ESB... So I guess it should be included. I always skip that track when listening a SW score which has it ! :)

... I can see Mynock Cave didn't strike your ears that much... Wel, well.

ABC said:

msycamore said:

Can I ask you why you choose to work with "Jedi Master Revealed" from the SE? to me it sound much better on the Anthology's track "City In The Clouds"...

"Jedi Master Revealed" looks better on the Anthology at first glance, but after re-EQ of both, seeing what they were made of, the SE was better quality, had more substance and a better depht. Here again the Antho is more "shiny" but it's only a "package", and is also far much noisy than the SE once the highs were cut on both.

 one more thing, will you include the 20TH Century Fox fanfare? (John Williams & LSO recorded the new version for this film after all) just curious.

I recently borrowed the first print of the SE to my brother and so I rode indeed the fanfare has been especially re-recorded by the LSO on ESB... So I guess it should be included. I always skip that track when listening a SW score which has it ! :)

... I can see Mynock Cave didn't strike your ears that much... Wel, well.

Oh, I missed one of your new samples, I was just going through your notes on the first page, I see your reason now behind your choice of Jedi Master Revealed, downloading it right now;) If you include the Fox Fanfare may I suggest the Anthology one (the SE one is missing one second, if I remember correctly and is badly remixed).

Ah. As you seem to be attentive to each detail, you may notice the last RSO part is a little faster than the SE. I should have managed it but I didn't figure out what was the problem right away. Anyway it is fine and CD1 is finished since many weeks... I sweared I won't touch to anything again. The Mynock Cave was perhaps the most difficult edit of all.

If you include the Fox Fanfare may I suggest the Anthology one...

Obviously :) Perhaps will I take directly my "OT salvage" mix.

msycamore,

To end that confusion once for all, I just noticed the Anthology album (CD2) End Title has not the tracked Imperial March bit, but is made of the Alt March beginning of the original album + the film version Alt March...

Crazy !

ABC said:

msycamore,

To end that confusion once for all, I just noticed the Anthology album (CD2) End Title has not the tracked Imperial March bit, but is made of the Alt March beginning of the original album + the film version Alt March...

Crazy !

Yeah, both the film and album version seems to share about 9sec of the concert arrangement.

You have convinced me with the Jedi Master Revealed, its sounds pretty good;) Mynock Cave was one of the few tracks on the SE album I thought sounded quite impressive, a little harch, but it had the original rich and balanced Tomlinson mix. The editing in this one is professionally done and it actually works without the march before the cave but I don't understand your omission later on, can you please explain why you think it's a wrong ad, (maybe you have already) I know you have worked hard on this one and that you are finished with it, I just want to know your reason behind it. Overall very good:) by the way, City In The Clouds v.3 are sounding damn good!! Thank you again for your hard work.

msycamore said:

... can you please explain why you think it's a wrong ad, (maybe you have already) I know you have worked hard on this one and that you are finished with it, I just want to know your reason behind it.

 ABC said:

I won't change my mind about the "Jedi Master Revealed" link with "Mynock Cave" as I edited them. However we can see that from the fanfare I removed to the end of "Mynock Cave" it is one entire cue. Then it is now obvious I'll have to place the entire cue in the bonus tracks. That's ok, you'll be able to appreciate both the new edit with the RSO track wich sounds powerful and the whole SE track wich sounds not bad at all.

The first reason is the sound, indeed I tried to get rid of the harshness of the cue before and each time I tried to low that, the sound was dying (refer to the OE). The only way I found to improve this track was to make it shine (the "Salvage" version). Now I've done another mix for the bonus track of it and as it was better I wondered if it may be edited with the RSO version... After listening both my answer is: no way.

- The real problem with the SE version is that the high frequencies are too short, so lifted with abuse. That's how I see the matter. There are a bunch of good things in the SE, but they are always spoiled being to short and so, virtually extended.  For comparison the "Aboard The Executor" track is incredibly superior to the whole set, you don't have idea. It has quite the same potential than "The Battle in the Snow" from the RSO wich is the best on it considering the thousand ways you can make it sound. I really calmed them down on the OE so rich they were. -

The second and third reasons are that the first rush in "Mynock Cave" breaks the flow (it breaks the surprise of the second rush, what always bothered me), and to finish what I said in my notes: "Jedi Master Revealed" has been obviously composed to match the beginning of "Mynock Cave". Surely a safety from J. Williams who put in reserve a lot of his music on this score to allow re-cuts. This was particularly obvious to me when I worked on the film version edit.

To have it complete in the bonus tracks is the best alternative and believe me, this cue being placed between "Snowspeeders Alt" and "Departure Alt" both re-edited and re-layered with the RSO, doesn't make a so proud figure...

msycamore said:

You have convinced me with the Jedi Master Revealed, its sounds pretty good;) 

... Thanks to the layer wich achieved it. :) 

by the way, City In The Clouds v.3 are sounding damn good!! Thank you again for your hard work.

 I'm glad. "City In The Clouds" v4 sounds as powerful, and is a bit clearer, and is completed with the layers. Anyway, v.4 blows my previous work, what I didn't dare saying when I released v.3 if you remember. ;)

And guess what is the last track I'm currently re-editing ?... The very very first one I made and posted here !!! Lol

ABC said:

...and to finish what I said in my notes: "Jedi Master Revealed" has been obviously composed to match the beginning of "Mynock Cave". Surely a safety from J. Williams who put in reserve a lot of his music on this score to allow re-cuts. This was particularly obvious to me when I worked on the film version edit.

Yes, I never doubted you here, I'm with you on this one, they both blend very good with each other. Both ways are fine to me:)

ABC said:

The first reason is the sound, indeed I tried to get rid of the harshness of the cue before and each time I tried to low that, the sound was dying (refer to the OE). The only way I found to improve this track was to make it shine (the "Salvage" version). Now I've done another mix for the bonus track of it and as it was better I wondered if it may be edited with the RSO version... After listening both my answer is: no way.

The second and third reasons are that the first rush in "Mynock Cave" breaks the flow (it breaks the surprise of the second rush, what always bothered me)

Fair enough, your version of it will be a very good alternative for me, if it doesn't sound to rude;) anyway, thanks for the reply.

ABC said:

- The real problem with the SE version is that the high frequencies are too short, so lifted with abuse. That's how I see the matter. There are a bunch of good things in the SE, but they are always spoiled being to short and so, virtually extended.  For comparison the "Aboard The Executor" track is incredibly superior to the whole set, you don't have idea. It has quite the same potential than "The Battle in the Snow" from the RSO wich is the best on it considering the thousand ways you can make it sound. I really calmed them down on the OE so rich they were.

I agree with you, "Aboard The Executor" is wonderful and really powerful next to the other tracks on that album (one of my favorites, it's sad it isn't in the movie itself). I understand it must be very hard if you have to tone down the great sounding tracks to better match the inferior ones, if you look at this chart of the remixed cues on the SE for example, it's not hard to see why the SE is so inconsistent.

                                         The Empire Strikes Back Remixes

Disc                Track                            Cue Title                                                     Notes

1                     1                     20th Century Fox Fanfare                             Brian Risner remix

1                     2a                   Main Title                                                       Brian Risner remix

1                     2b                   The Ice Planet Hoth                                      Brian Risner remix

1                     3a                   The Wampa's Lair                                         Eric Tomlinson film mix

1                     3b                   Vision of Obi-Wan                                         Eric Tomlinson film mix

1                     3c                   Snow Speeders Take Flight                          Eric Tomlinson film mix

1                     4a                   The Imperial Probe                                       Eric Tomlinson film mix

1                     4b                   Aboard the Executor                                      Eric Tomlinson film mix

1                     5a                   Ion Cannon                                                     Brian Risner remix

1                     5b                   Imperial Walkers                                           Brian Risner remix

1                     5c                   Beneath the AT-AT                                         Brian Risner remix

1                     5d                   Escape in the Millennium Falcon                    Brian Risner remix

1                     6                     The Asteroid Field                                          Brian Risner remix

1                     7                     Arrival on Dagobah                                        Eric Tomlinson film mix

1                     8                     Luke's Nocturnal Visitor                                 Brian Risner remix

1                     9a                   Han Solo and the Princess (Start - 2:22)       Brian Risner remix

1                     9b                   Vader and the Emperor (2:22 - End)             Eric Tomlinson film mix

1                     10a                 Jedi Master Revealed                                     Brian Risner remix

1                     10b                 Mynock Cave                                                  Eric Tomlinson film mix

1                     11a                 The Training of a Jedi Knight                         Brian Risner remix

1                     11b                 The Magic Tree                                               Brian Risner remix

2                     1                     The Imperial March                                        Brian Risner remix

2                     2                     Yoda's Theme                                                 Brian Risner remix

2                     3                     Attacking a Star Destroyer                            Eric Tomlinson film mix

2                     4                     Yoda and the Force                                        Brian Risner remix

2                     5a                   Imperial Starfleet Deployed                          Eric Tomlinson film mix

2                     5b                   City in the Clouds                                            Brian Risner remix

2                     6                     Lando's Palace                                                Brian Risner remix

2                     7                     Betrayal at Bespin                                          Eric Tomlinson film mix

2                     8                     Deal with the Dark Lord                                 Eric Tomlinson film mix

2                     9a                   Carbon Freeze                                                Eric Tomlinson film mix

2                     9b                   Darth Vader's Trap                                         Eric Tomlinson film mix

2                     9c                   Departure of Boba Fett                                   Eric Tomlinson film mix

2                     10                   The Clash of Lightsabers                                Brian Risner remix

2                     11a                 Rescue from Cloud City                                  Eric Tomlinson film mix

2                     11b                 Hyperspace                                                     Brian Risner remix

2                     12a                 The Rebel Fleet                                               Brian Risner remix

2                     12b                 End Title                                                          Brian Risner remix

ABC said:

msycamore said: by the way, City In The Clouds v.3 are sounding damn good!! Thank you again for your hard work.

 I'm glad. "City In The Clouds" v4 sounds as powerful, and is a bit clearer, and is completed with the layers. Anyway, v.4 blows my previous work, what I didn't dare saying when I released v.3 if you remember. ;)

And guess what is the last track I'm currently re-editing ?... The very very first one I made and posted here !!! Lol

 Duel, Main Title perhaps? anyway I'm looking forward to it;)

Burdokva said:

Overall, I think the 2010 sounds just slightly better - more "relaxed", not so noisy and bombastic. There's more depth to the sound, which makes it more clear, even if some sections are slightly fainter than the previous. 2009 has louder overall feel, as if all of the instruments are up front.

Thanks for taking time to give feedback (and to listen) Burdokva. I'm glad you caught what has been intented from v.2 to v.3 !

The livelier tracks sound great, but it's a bit too much for me.

The selection of the tracks has its importance on such a set. Well it' s a heavy score and a bonus track section is hard to endure after the "storytelling" of the entire film.

The C. Gerhardt recordings of "The Asteroid Field" and "Han & Leia" are two concert versions arrangement that we usually don't know about and that we even don't know if they've been performed by the London Symphony in that shape.

Unfortunately I share your appreciation so much that it was enough someone told me that for I remove the 3 C.G. tracks. Let's focus on the London Symphony ;)

... Then, tracks OUT ! :)

I still like them both. There's seem to be new version, however.. maybe I should wait until the actual final, definitive one? :p

 I highly recommend that. What you noticed (the fainter sections on v.3) won't be a problem anymore I think.

msycamore said (About Mynock Cave):

Fair enough, your version of it will be a very good alternative for me, if it doesn't sound to rude;)

 ...? You just have to listen what's after "Jedi Master Revealed" on the sample to find out... This version is definitive (and sounds like "Vader and the Emperor" for an idea).

I understand it must be very hard if you have to tone down the great sounding tracks to better match the inferior ones...

That's not exactly what I meant. The difficulty here is to choose or detect what is to be highlighted or not. The frequencies can be differenciated a lot on "Aboard the Executor" and will still sound natural. There's no corrupted frequencies once the noise from the remastering is removed, on the contrary of almost all the score (any source).

But anyway the contrary is a lot more difficult. I've just spent days and more working on "Carbon Freeze" and "Darth Vader's Trap", even trying accurate layers with the SE to borrow a little of the bass/medium roundness. I believed it worked and was good during a time but unfortunately in the end I observe that if I increased the power and dynamic of the tracks, the depht has decreased. Then after having tried more than ten versions for each track I finally come back to the v.3 final mix for them as they show the more judicious choices.

msycamore said:

... if you look at this chart of the remixed cues on the SE for example, it's not hard to see why the SE is so inconsistent.

Wow !... Nice listing Msycamore ! Where did you get that ?

However I strongly suspect the only Risner mix on "Ion Canon" is the last bit, or let's say the second half. Besides, I couldn't have layered the Anthology on the first part as easily as I did if it was his mix because I notice those ones are too fast (as Mangobyebye noticed some SE tracks where overpitched) ;)

If you layer the Tomlinson mixes from the SE with the the Anthology ones, each infinitesimal bit fits at its place, excepted that you have to check if the frequencies are inverted or not (most of the time they are), and you have to re-edit all the track because of very slight differences in the cuts. (I tried layers for "Attack Position" and "Escape From Bespin" and had to re-edit the SE in 5 or 6 parts... Those cuts are unnoticeable otherwise so much the difference in the sound is slight or null).

...

Ok, Risner made something really weird with those tracks... But he's not the only one responsible of the catastrophic SE:

All the Tomlinson mixes are f**ked up by the processing of the remastering: the equalization, possibly compression and many stereo modifications have brought this set to a painful and poor experience.

As you can read in my notes, the SE track for "Mynock Cave" have each channel isolated from the other: the instruments from the left sound only on the left and the right ones on the right, what the RSO surely doesn't do. If you sit in a concert hall it would be weird that a wall separe the musicians and so you can't hear the instruments sound melting... !!! You probably noticed that in my "Ice Planet" edit besides. EDIT: concerning "Mynock Cave", the statement made here looks to be finally true only for the parts that were missing on the RSO recording... Coincidence ?

Then, if Bryan Risner missed the multitracks mixing, Dan Hersh achieved to slaughter the set with his way to handle digital processing !

Nice team !

ABC, turn on your PM

ABC said:

Ok, Risner made something really weird with those tracks... But he's not the only one responsible of the catastrophic SE:

All the Tomlinson mixes are f**ked up by the processing of the remastering: the equalization, possibly compression and many stereo modifications have brought this set to a painful and poor experience.

As you can read in my notes, the SE track for "Mynock Cave" have each channel isolated from the other: the instruments from the left sound only on the left and the right ones on the right, what the RSO surely doesn't do. If you sit in a concert hall it would be weird that a wall separe the musicians and so you can't hear the instruments sound melting... !!! You probably noticed that in my "Ice Planet" edit besides. EDIT: concerning "Mynock Cave", the statement made here looks to be finally true only for the parts that were missing on the RSO recording... Coincidence ?

Then, if Bryan Risner missed the multitracks mixing, Dan Hersh achieved to slaughter the set with his way to handle digital processing !

Nice team !

Yes, Brian Risner's remixes is not the only problem, I just posted it for a good example for one of the issues with it, I'm not saying that Tomlinson's tracks is free from problems, but his original filmmixes are imo. but you're right, that has nothing to do with how they sound on records. But as you know, Risner remixed the 24-track tapes very badly with instruments located in the opposite direction etc. and many of them can never sound great, no matter what you do with them.

OK... I must give Mynock Cave a listen again, I don't remember that.

Risner remixed the 24-track tapes very badly with instruments located in the opposite direction etc. and many of them can never sound great, no matter what you do with them.

According to the listing you've posted it's funny to notice how much is left from his work on the OE:

• Ice planet bits: about 20 sec
• Jedi Master Revealed (layered!): 2 min
• ... And perhaps the missing bits from Mynock Cave: about 10 sec

... Tomlinson rules by K.O. in the first round !

I'm not saying that Tomlinson's tracks is free from problems, but his original filmmixes are imo.

Do you think he's responsible of both the Sountrack and Film versions? Well, that's something I don't quite well unserstand... (If there's a difference I mean)

What I observe is that...

• the original RSO soundtrack gives a strong relief to some instruments that are unheard or spoiled on the Anthology. (ringing instruments, percussions, flutes etc...) and a completely different touch to the sound... So are they still to be called "Tomlinson mixes" on the Anthology ?
• That the SE uses the exact same mixes from the Anthology for the non-Risner tracks (Lucasfilm politics (?): the sheapest, the best).

But I haven't listened the film mixes too carefuly to compare I must say, excepted perhaps the End Titles, wich sounds quite close to the Anthology track (I mean CD2 version, wich sounds different from the other tracks... ).

Conclusion (imo): the RSO version rules.

WOAH ! Stop the press !!!

msycamore, I was just reading what you sent to me, and it's an unvaluable detailed report on the story of this (these) recordings. Thank you so much !

It confirms everything that I observed and fixed (and I begin to realise how valuable is now my work, mostly on v.4)... But let's stay humble, I should say "managed" rather than "fixed".

The story and the loss of these recordings is incredible. Only, one day perhaps they will spend effort to force Polygram to locate the LP masters and if they're not dead may release something exceptionnal.

Anyway,

That was exactly what I needed, you really rock ! :) :) :)

ABC IS NOW HAVING A BREAK.

ABC said:

msycamore said:

I'm not saying that Tomlinson's tracks is free from problems, but his original filmmixes are imo.

Do you think he's responsible of both the Sountrack and Film versions? Well, that's something I don't quite well unserstand... (If there's a difference I mean)

What I observe is that...

• the original RSO soundtrack gives a strong relief to some instruments that are unheard or spoiled on the Anthology. (ringing instruments, percussions, flutes etc...) and a completely different touch to the sound... So are they still to be called "Tomlinson mixes" on the Anthology ?
• That the SE uses the exact same mixes from the Anthology for the non-Risner tracks ...

Conclusion (imo): the RSO version rules.

 Well, that discussion has become interesting so far, so here are some answers according to the awesome stuff I could read ;) :

The Anthology uses mostly the Tomlinson filmmixes untouched (though they're far from a 1st generation copy). What I thought to be the Anthology signature - the large stereo - is finally Tomlinson signature. This is how he's rendered the sound for the film.

The RSO uses the original master tapes, and John Williams with an assistant deal with the sound in an other way: they narrowed the stereo image, they added compression, reverb, and perhaps some EQ's. Plus, they highlighted some parts of the multi-tracks: that's why we hear some instruments unheard in the other mixes.

The SE (after my own observations) tried on the Tomlinson mixes the same processes that has been done on the RSO, mostly compression and narrowing the stereo... And perhaps reverb. Unfortunately, it is not very well managed. Anyway, the "Tomlinson mixes" are not to be called that much on the SE.

Anyway, my choicse are confirmed once for all. And if the Tomlinson mixes are quite alright for the film with their envelopping stereo, I largely prefer the J. Williams remixes from the high quality RSO recordings as a material for remixing, and as the definitive reference for the best listening experience.

And for what is about compression and reverb, here's surely what I tend to compensate with my EQ as far as I don't use such processes. Always trying to get what is the more natural of course.

Hoping it makes all clear ;)