logo Sign In

ANDOR - Disney+ Series - A General Discussion Thread — Page 15

Author
Time

Ice said:

I love how

Mothma uses her knowledge of her driver’s role to set up her husband as the fall guy and get the ISB suspicions off of herself

That was so well done, just like the rest of the final episode.

I thought for much of the week this episode may disappoint in some way, that it would be too difficult to end the season on such a high note, because of the amazing standards of what has come before, but they nailed it, the whole episode.

Now we have a long wait for season 2. But I hope the other Star Wars series coming soon are near the qualities and standards of this one.

The Imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort. It breaks, it leaks. Authority is brittle. Oppression is the mask of fear.

Author
Time

Well, my previous post was premature, but mostly right on. I feel much of this season was wasted. It largely circled back to where it started, at least for Cass.

That said, this final episode was fantastic. I have loved the episodes on Ferrix. The rest has felt like interesting deleted scenes. Mon Mothma’s story has taken up a lot of the time. Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

So the season ended on a high note. Love the hologram speech.

Author
Time

yotsuya said:

Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

What the hell are you talking about?

Author
Time
 (Edited)

A small thing about this show that is actually such a big thing, is just how many parts there are. The breadth and scope of this thing is unrivaled in television on a logistical level. So many characters that won’t appear outside their respective arcs/settings, with no spoken name, get full beats in the storytelling and even written lines. It’s kind of insane when you think about it.

Shows are usually broken down between Series Regulars, Recurring Cast, and Guest Stars. The narrative structure necessitated by that is pretty consistent and easy to notice. A main ensemble will be relatively small, have some background constants, and will occasionally cross paths with a temporary presence for an episode or a few at a time. Even shows as big as GoT will often relegate the [collective] whims of ruled subjects (of which there are probably thousands in-story) to dialogue between main characters about them, or extras as set dressing - acting out a mob, attending an event, a large battle, etc. But they lack individual agency and are a homogenous whole outside recurring/guests as their ambassadors.

It’s almost subtle, but there are so many bit parts in Andor. Narkina 5’s prisoners, the troops in the garrison at Aldhani, the community on Ferrix. It communicates so much depth in the world here not just because Production Design Good™, but because the space is so filled with characters, not just extras. It’s a show full of Glup Shittos actually getting moments.

This wouldn’t be out of place in a two hour movie, but this is TV

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

It largely circled back to where it started, at least for Cass.

Not at all! Cassian has undergone a tremendous conversion. Whereas he went with Luthen out of desperation and took part in the Aldahni mission for money, now he’s preparing for action by listening to Nevik’s manifesto and joining Luthen willingly, dissatisfied with any life but one of full commitment to the cause. He is a changed man.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

Author
Time

I absolutely loved this series. This is probably the best thing they’ve done with the franchise since the original trilogy.

Author
Time

timdiggerm said:

yotsuya said:

It largely circled back to where it started, at least for Cass.

Not at all! Cassian has undergone a tremendous conversion. Whereas he went with Luthen out of desperation and took part in the Aldahni mission for money, now he’s preparing for action by listening to Nevik’s manifesto and joining Luthen willingly, dissatisfied with any life but one of full commitment to the cause. He is a changed man.

Nerdist: I want to start with the final scene of the season. What brought Cassian to Luthen’s ship?

Tony Gilroy: For what he says—to make the oath. For clarity, for closure, as we say, right? If everybody is out hunting you, do you want to live like that? Plus he’s made his peace. I think he’s absolutely legit. I think everything they’re saying at the end there is completely legit. He really means it, Like, “Man, I can’t take it.” He doesn’t really have much left to live for, does he, if he doesn’t go that way? What’s the point? And he doesn’t want to run anymore. He wants to be inside himself. To be outside yourself and be wrong with yourself and realize it? He means that, “Kill me or take me.”

Do you think he expected Luthen to kill him?

Gilroy: I don’t think he knows. I think he’s hoping. But I don’t think he went there to try and game [the situation]. I think it’s legit. I know that’s how Diego played it. It’s a legit question.

You referred to the series before it started as “the education” of Cassian Andor.

Gilroy: This season, yeah.

So what are the most meaningful lessons he learned during the season? And which ones still await him?

Gilroy: To piggyback and go backwards, as I said, when you’re outside yourself… the guy you meet is not right with himself at all. He’s utterly disillusioned. He’s completely self-interested. And he’s lying for things that aren’t even really worth it. He has a temper he can’t control. He has impulse control that he can’t control. You take that guy and then you give him the worst day of his life, he’s becoming right with himself over the course of this long odyssey.

So you want to see him wake up. And you want to see him learn. And you want to see him radicalized without having a shopping list where, “Oh, this is this week’s lesson of the week.” You want to make sure that along the way you tick all the boxes. “Oh my God, look what the Empire is doing here. Look what it’s doing here and how this place is being ruined. Look how these people are being oppressed and look what’s happening to me.” And, “Oh my God, here’s someone who comes along and puts a dialectical spin on it with the manifesto.” And, “Here’s people who’ve been affected by it. I thought I had it bad? What happened to Cinta’s family when storm troopers slaughtered them? And why is Sergeant Gorn doing it? Why is he turning?”

Everybody has a different reason. As Vel says on the way up the hill, “Everybody has their own rebellion.” And all the variations of what that means, and all those motivations, are going to become the colors of his holistic coming together. So by the end of it, he’s right with himself. He’s where he needs to be. “I’m going to do this one thing.” And going forward, what do you do with that? How do you become a leader? How do you survive? And how is everyone going to survive scaling up and getting to Yavin and Rebel Alliance? If paranoia and secrecy are your product, Luthen Rael has been building a startup company in his garage, and when he does Aldhani, it’s like he opens the garage door. As Kleya says, “We’re going to go loud.” And Denise Gough (Deadra) says, “It’s not a robbery, it’s an announcement.”

That difficulty going forward for Luthen—and then for everybody else the same thing—is if everything you’re doing is based on secrecy, how do you collaborate with people? How do you join up? What happens to the original gangsters and what happens to the outliers and what happens to the people who really sacrificed? And so that’ll be the issues going forward.

Source

Forum Moderator
Author
Time

Loved the season finale for all of the reasons mentioned and I don’t need to add to it.

But I came here to say, did anyone notice there was a post-credit scene? I almost shut it off but decided I wanted to listen to the music while I thought about the ending, and then suddenly…

Author
Time

RogueLeader said:

I get the what Octorox is feeling about Andor missing the escapism of Star Wars and Empire. The way I see it, I guess a more in universe perspective, but I kind of associate the fairy tale and space opera aspects of Star Wars with the Jedi and the Force. The Force is magic, and Jedi are wizards. During these dark times, the magic is dead and the wizards are all gone. It is bleak because that spirituality, faith, and hope has been snuffed out. While it might not have a great ring to it, this is why I think A New Hope works well as a subtitle for the original Star Wars film. With Obi-Wan and Luke, the mysticism is returning and the universe comes into form as a space fantasy.

For me, that is how I feel like you can have a more grounded show like Andor, as well as a fairy tale like the Original Trilogy, and they can coexist fairly well.

And to me, it adds weight to the importance of the Jedi, and they’re importance as a symbol of individuals who can make the impossible happen. Clearly we see this best exemplified with Luke Skywalker in the OT and ST.

I think you’re referring to me, and I never said I don’t think any of those things. I definitely do and tried to make that clear in my previous post - Andor is the thing in Star Wars I’ve been the most excited about in a while, and I’m in love with it. The thing for me is that, again, I just think Star Wars and Empire are better, and with recency bias + the way this is possibly the most mature storytellig in SW ever, it’s easy to jump out and say that this is actually better than those two movies, and I think it’s tremendously unfair to them, because while Andor is very, very excellent TV, they’re two of the best movies ever made, and I still don’t think it quite compares. The escapism bit was just me defending the more lighthearted nature of those movies in light of how much more serious we can go with the setting as shown here. Anyway…

Awesome show, loved everything, really absolutely every single thing… I think the only thing that got close to even remotely bothering me was Bix saying “caf” in that first or second episode, lol. Something out of 90s EU, which should’ve remained 90s EU.

Author
Time

Loved the finale. Personal favorite scene was Dedra being dragged through the street by rebels and her hyperventilating freak-out after she’s rescued. Clearly not a combat experienced field agent.

I watched through to the post-credits. Very cool to see, but very expected. I figured that was the case a few episodes earlier when we saw the insane volume of identical pieces.

Genevieve O’Reilly continues to absolutely bring it as an actress and as a character. Outstanding work.

A much stronger episode than the two or three preceding it.

Forum Moderator
Author
Time

timdiggerm said:

yotsuya said:

It largely circled back to where it started, at least for Cass.

Not at all! Cassian has undergone a tremendous conversion. Whereas he went with Luthen out of desperation and took part in the Aldahni mission for money, now he’s preparing for action by listening to Nevik’s manifesto and joining Luthen willingly, dissatisfied with any life but one of full commitment to the cause. He is a changed man.

He’s change by the events of the last episode more than all the rest of the season. That is my issue. Nevik’s manifesto is far too similar to his mother’s speech.

Author
Time

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

What the hell are you talking about?

The political stuff on Coruscant. None of it adds to Cassian’s journey.

Author
Time

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

What the hell are you talking about?

The political stuff on Coruscant. None of it adds to Cassian’s journey.

None of it was cut from ROTS though.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but this is baffling to me. Mon Mothma’s storyline intersected with several other characters, including Luthen, Vel and the ISB. It is clearly meant to collide with Andor’s journey in the second season.

Author
Time

yotsuya said:

timdiggerm said:

yotsuya said:

It largely circled back to where it started, at least for Cass.

Not at all! Cassian has undergone a tremendous conversion. Whereas he went with Luthen out of desperation and took part in the Aldahni mission for money, now he’s preparing for action by listening to Nevik’s manifesto and joining Luthen willingly, dissatisfied with any life but one of full commitment to the cause. He is a changed man.

He’s change by the events of the last episode more than all the rest of the season. That is my issue. Nevik’s manifesto is far too similar to his mother’s speech.

I actually don’t think the last episode changed him at all. If anything, he went into the last episode a certain way and ended it just verbalizing that to Luthen. You’re exactly right about the manifesto vs Maarva’s speech. But Maarva’s speech wasn’t for him, he didn’t need to hear it anymore; esp. since she pretty much said all of that to him herself in episode 7.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

Author
Time

NFBisms said:

yotsuya said:

timdiggerm said:

yotsuya said:

It largely circled back to where it started, at least for Cass.

Not at all! Cassian has undergone a tremendous conversion. Whereas he went with Luthen out of desperation and took part in the Aldahni mission for money, now he’s preparing for action by listening to Nevik’s manifesto and joining Luthen willingly, dissatisfied with any life but one of full commitment to the cause. He is a changed man.

He’s change by the events of the last episode more than all the rest of the season. That is my issue. Nevik’s manifesto is far too similar to his mother’s speech.

I actually don’t think the last episode changed him at all. If anything, he went into the last episode a certain way and ended it just verbalizing that to Luthen. You’re exactly right about the manifesto vs Maarva’s speech. But Maarva’s speech wasn’t for him, he didn’t need to hear it anymore; esp. since she pretty much said all of that to him herself in episode 7.

Exactly right. The last episode showed us the change that’s been happening in Cass over the course of the season, and the funeral showed us that he’s far from unique in being changed by experiencing the Empire’s oppression.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

Author
Time

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

What the hell are you talking about?

The political stuff on Coruscant. None of it adds to Cassian’s journey.

None of it was cut from ROTS though.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but this is baffling to me. Mon Mothma’s storyline intersected with several other characters, including Luthen, Vel and the ISB. It is clearly meant to collide with Andor’s journey in the second season.

You haven’t watched the ROTS deleted scenes recently, have you.

We know her story intersects. That’s not the point. It is relevance and interest. I think they could have trimmed out a lot and had fewer episodes and told a better story. Same mistakes as The Book of Boba Fett in many ways.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

What the hell are you talking about?

The political stuff on Coruscant. None of it adds to Cassian’s journey.

None of it was cut from ROTS though.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but this is baffling to me. Mon Mothma’s storyline intersected with several other characters, including Luthen, Vel and the ISB. It is clearly meant to collide with Andor’s journey in the second season.

You haven’t watched the ROTS deleted scenes recently, have you.

Of course I have. But if you mean to suggest those were cut because of Genevieve O’Reilly’s performance, then that’s both asinine and factually wrong. And apart from being set on Coruscant, those scenes have very little in common with what’s in Andor.

Author
Time

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Wexter said:

yotsuya said:

Nice background, but we can see why those scenes were cut from ROTS.

What the hell are you talking about?

The political stuff on Coruscant. None of it adds to Cassian’s journey.

None of it was cut from ROTS though.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, but this is baffling to me. Mon Mothma’s storyline intersected with several other characters, including Luthen, Vel and the ISB. It is clearly meant to collide with Andor’s journey in the second season.

You haven’t watched the ROTS deleted scenes recently, have you.

Of course I have. But if you mean to suggest those were cut because of Genevieve O’Reilly’s performance, then that’s both asinine and factually wrong. And apart from being set on Coruscant, those scenes have very little in common with what’s in Andor.

What makes you think I have a problem with her performance? No, it’s not her performance, it is the political intrigue of her role in founding the rebellion that lacks. It is the same slow pace as the cutscenes from ROTS. Most people agree that the political backstage that featured in the prequels is part of the problem with the prequels. They kept it to a minimum in The Clone Wars and is largely absent from Rogue One, and it doesn’t really work here. Not for what was advertised as an action packed series showing the rise of Cassian Andor.

It is a slow moving collection of character backstories for characters who later become important. Only the episodes on Farrix and the prison escape really pack any punch. This series really does not follow George Lucas’s “faster and more intense” editing style. Not even close.

Author
Time

And it doesn’t rhyme either…

Author
Time
 (Edited)

“Faster More Intense” was always kind of patronizing, no? I think to go there for the audience they were obviously going for here, the creative team would have to be intentionally condescending.

You’re asking for this show’s strength as slower paced, broader scope work be stripped, in favor of offering something any other Star Wars thing already has. It’s the kind of cynical, bad faith storytelling I think many of us are burnt out on, as though a SW audience would only latch onto the familiar or the flash. Maybe that just means I don’t like Star Wars™. 🤷‍♂️. If it’s good, it’s good.

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

Author
Time

NFBisms said:

“Faster More Intense” was always kind of patronizing, no? I think to go there for the audience they were obviously going for here, the creative team would have to be intentionally condescending.

You’re asking for this show’s strength as slower paced, broader scope work be stripped, in favor of offering something any other Star Wars thing already has. It’s the kind of cynical, bad faith storytelling I think many of us are burnt out on, as though a SW audience would only latch onto the familiar or the flash. Maybe that just means I don’t like Star Wars™. 🤷‍♂️. If it’s good, it’s good.

I get you might really admire the guy, but George Lucas The Businessman deserves some scrutiny too and maybe someone else’s creative vision can have merit outside the marketing identity

I think that this series is really slow. Too slow. There are a couple of flashy episodes, but other than that it plods. It is not just drawn out. It is actually boring at times. Yes, “faster and more intense” does not always work. There are plenty of scenes in the original movie that move slow, but with purpose. This just moves slow without purpose. I think this series could be improved by cutting out the excess and making it about 8 episodes long. It spends too many episodes setting things up and not enough on telling the story. It really can’t compare to The Mandalorian at all. Or even Kenobi. It does not have the inconsistencies of The Book of Boba Fett. It feels more like Resistance. That series also lacked the pacing. Clone Wars and Rebels had the occasional episode that wasn’t as well done, but overall they were very consistent as is The Mandalorian. They spent far too much time on the heist, Coruscant, and the prison than they needed to. It bogged the story down. So did too many character POVs. A good edit might fix it. Trim the fat. This is a basic story telling tool that has nothing to do with Lucas. His “faster and more intense” direction was just his way of executing this very basic and fundamental tool for engaging stories. Some other comments claimed Kenobi was too slow, but I found this to be glacial in comparison.

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Short of writing breakdowns for every episode and being even more annoying haha, I’ll just say that it really just depends on your preferences and what excites you I guess. I personally had a feast to chew on every week and sure, it wasn’t of the plot moving, action variety, but I found it incredibly concise in every ambition it had.

I guess to help you level, I wouldn’t concpetualize Mothma’s arc as “backstory”, implying it as a piece of a larger puzzle being The Saga. It’s its own Story in itself and if you can’t appreciate in on those terms, then it’s whatever

Andor: The Rogue One Arc

Author
Time
 (Edited)

This show was… good. It wasn’t an uneven mess and knew what it wanted to be. It had things like suspense and characterisation which have been missing from recent SW content, if it was ever present before in these terms. It also had some proper acting talent and proper dialogue instead of the nonsense in recent shows. The tone made sense and people behaved in ways that made sense. It didn’t feel cheap and wasn’t full of cringe references, despite a few name drops.

So it came as no surprise that people hated the pacing and the lack of action. Because for better or worse (it’s the former) this isn’t really SW at all in terms of things like escapism and adventure. SW as a continuation of THX or the crime dramas of the 1970s. After the awkward choppy flashbacks in the first 3 parts it all fell into place. So I fully expect season 2 to be tampered with to make it more appealing to a wider audience, i.e. things like Darth Vader and more deepfakes.

It’s these sort of things that mean I can’t yet accept this as enriching Rogue One after the fact. At least not fully. They could give three episode arcs to Saw and Jyn or to Maze and his pals, but it still leads to creepy CGI faces and Darth Vader’s ‘totally epic’ murder spree. Maybe LFL should avoid this and work towards common goals of quality output instead of just handing out jobs to everyone that is in vogue. It depends on if they recognise what they have here. Disney don’t because they buried it on the app front page.

Author
Time

Mocata said:

This show was… good. It wasn’t an uneven mess and knew what it wanted to be. It had things like suspense and characterisation which have been missing from recent SW content, if it was ever present before in these terms. It also had some proper acting talent and proper dialogue instead of the nonsense in recent shows. The tone made sense and people behaved in ways that made sense. It didn’t feel cheap and wasn’t full of cringe references, despite a few name drops.

So it came as no surprise that people hated the pacing and the lack of action. Because for better or worse (it’s the former) this isn’t really SW at all in terms of things like escapism and adventure. SW as a continuation of THX or the crime dramas of the 1970s. After the awkward choppy flashbacks in the first 3 parts it all fell into place. So I fully expect season 2 to be tampered with to make it more appealing to a wider audience, i.e. things like Darth Vader and more deepfakes.

It’s these sort of things that mean I can’t yet accept this as enriching Rogue One after the fact. At least not fully. They could give three episode arcs to Saw and Jyn or to Maze and his pals, but it still leads to creepy CGI faces and Darth Vader’s ‘totally epic’ murder spree. Maybe LFL should avoid this and work towards common goals of quality output instead of just handing out jobs to everyone that is in vogue. It depends on if they recognise what they have here. Disney don’t because they buried it on the app front page.

I watch a lot of shows. The only Star Wars item I am looking for connection on with this is Rogue One. The title of this series is Andor so it should be mostly about him and what led him to the character we see in Rogue One. There is a lot of extra stuff in this series that isn’t related to those events. It is tying into the Rebellion in general and that ties into the Skywalker Saga. Mon Mothma is part of the Skywalker Saga. Luthien is not, but I don’t feel his character had much development and he should have been the focus. Instead we know way more about the culture of Mon Mothma’s family and world than is useful to a tighter story of Cassian Andor.