anothe example of lucas changing things to appeal to a new generation lightsaber dueling styles of OT vs PT

Anyone ever wonder why lucas changed the dueling styles from the OT way to the  PT way.

Lucas claims   ..at least this is what he says NOW. that the jedi  fought that way in the OT  bnecause   vader was  weak and  a machine  and luke was untrained  and ben was an old man  and that the jedi in PT  were in their prime and    fought  flashy  because of that.  well this is another example of lucas blowing smoke up  ppls  ass;s  and here is why

for one the whole ben was an old man argument   maskles no sense..yoda  was old  dooku was old..   that didnt stop them  from jumpoing around like ninja turltes..... general grivious  was all machine just abiout and it didnt stop him.....the  youngling  in  epuisoide 3  was  young and mostly untrained and he  looked like a  ninja turtle also...this is all mopre  LUCAS  biullshit trying to  excusxe   his prequel   junk...

heres the facts on the  dueling styles....ion the OT  era..lucas always  claimed that the jedi were a mix of   merlin the wizard and the knights of the round table.....hence him using old europeon  style  swod fighting....the same style sword fighting you  find  in  braveheart, gladiator, lord of the rings,  hifglander..etc..etc   and that style  was befitting of a jedi knight....

enter the  junkquels,,,,think about  what was popular  at this time..martial arts,  ninjas, pokemon,  yugi oh..etc..etc   lucas  changed the  dueling style to  eastern based martial arts style.     the   saber duels in the pt  looks just like sword fighting in any NINJA film or  samuari film. sure its pretty and it looks good  and i actually like it in martial arts films  but   not for star wars. it  looks  cherograhped and rehearsed.  there is nothing  real about it.

the  dueling in the OT has a sense of realsim to it.  in episode  5  when luke appraches  vader   he ignites his lightsaber...and takes a swing...vader blocks it calmpy...luke takes a step towards vader...vader   slowly  tkes a step  back  in a defensive  move....   if this had been the prequels  luke would have  done a back flip up the steps and  spinned around  4  times before even swinging on vader....vader would have done three  flips and spins  and twirlled his saber around    5 times   before  striking back at luke.

everything about the prequels is so  pathetic and fans of the PT   wonder why  we  real fans  of star wars who fight to defend it   feel this way?

ill never stop bashing the prequels  and ill never stop defending the  real editions of the OT. and i do quote  people like gary lurtz  and  marcia lucas  and  and many other peoiple you wont find mentioned at starwars.com because  these people hold on to the truth  and they tell the truth  cause we sure cant depend on lucas or lucasfilm to do it

and  pt fans  accuse me and others here of bashing lucas when we call him a lier.  sorry but  we just tell the truth and if many of you pt  fans would bother to research it  and dig up his old interviews  you would see    where he has lied. more times than I can count  but  you pt  fans are not interested in the truth.  you  want to ignore it and act like it never happend.  I and many others my age were lucky enough to grow up in that time perioed and we heard the truth and read the truth.   i bought every starlog mag i could   with star wars interviews growing up.  i held on to every word from lucas cause back then i worshiped the man as did many others here.  uo till he turned his back not only on us the fans but on star wars its self and pimped out the name  for  profit.  thats the only   satisfaction i get from the prequels is knowing lucas   ruined his legacy with them.

Twirl, twirl, twirl, twirl, twirl.

haljordan28 said:

Lucas claims   ..at least this is what he says NOW. that the jedi  fought that way in the OT  bnecause   vader was  weak and  a machine  and luke was untrained  and ben was an old man  and that the jedi in PT  were in their prime and    fought  flashy  because of that.  well this is another example of lucas blowing smoke up  ppls  ass;s  and here is why

 

for one the whole ben was an old man argument   maskles no sense..yoda  was old  dooku was old..   that didnt stop them  from jumpoing around like ninja turltes..... general grivious  was all machine just abiout and it didnt stop him.....the  youngling  in  epuisoide 3  was  young and mostly untrained and he  looked like a  ninja turtle also...this is all mopre  LUCAS  biullshit trying to  excusxe   his prequel   junk...

 

heres the facts on the  dueling styles....ion the OT  era..lucas always  claimed that the jedi were a mix of   merlin the wizard and the knights of the round table.....hence him using old europeon  style  swod fighting....the same style sword fighting you  find  in  braveheart, gladiator, lord of the rings,  hifglander..etc..etc   and that style  was befitting of a jedi knight....

 

enter the  junkquels,,,,think about  what was popular  at this time..martial arts,  ninjas, pokemon,  yugi oh..etc..etc   lucas  changed the  dueling style to  eastern based martial arts style.     the   saber duels in the pt  looks just like sword fighting in any NINJA film or  samuari film. sure its pretty and it looks good  and i actually like it in martial arts films  but   not for star wars. it  looks  cherograhped and rehearsed.  there is nothing  real about it.

the  dueling in the OT has a sense of realsim to it.  in episode  5  when luke appraches  vader   he ignites his lightsaber...and takes a swing...vader blocks it calmpy...luke takes a step towards vader...vader   slowly  tkes a step  back  in a defensive  move....   if this had been the prequels  luke would have  done a back flip up the steps and  spinned around  4  times before even swinging on vader....vader would have done three  flips and spins  and twirlled his saber around    5 times   before  striking back at luke.

"The Truth" is a complicated thing, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about things George Lucas has said. I question any argument that includes quotes from Lucas as a basis.

It also seems odd that you use evidence from the PT (Dooku and Yoda lightsabering) to discredit the OT claim that Obi was old and out of practice.

The dueling styling in the OT changed considerably during the trilogy. Compare Obi/Darth to Luke/Darth II. At first Lucas insisted the lightsabers had to be worked two handed, but the fight choreographers convinced him to allow more one handed moves.

It seems to me that dramatically it makes sense that the duels are so different.

Obi/Darth= Old Man vs. Cyborg

Luke/Darth=Rookie vs. Cyborg who doesn't want to kill him

Maul/Qui/Obi= Sith Killing Machine vs. Two Jedi in their Prime

Obi/Anakin= Two best Jedi in the galaxy kicking ass.

I don't need Lucas to tell me any of those things. They seem obvious from the movies.

LexX said:

Qui-Gon is supposed to be older than Obi-Wan is in SW... Yeah, right.

He is? Where does it say that?

Neeson was in his late 40s. Guiness was 62.

LexX said:

TheBoost said:

LexX said:

Qui-Gon is supposed to be older than Obi-Wan is in SW... Yeah, right.

He is? Where does it say that?

Neeson was in his late 40s. Guiness was 62.

According to Chewbaccapedia Qui-Gon was 60 and Obi was 57.

Sheesh. Qui-Gon must use some good moisturizer.

TheBoost said:

haljordan28 said:

Lucas claims   ..at least this is what he says NOW. that the jedi  fought that way in the OT  bnecause   vader was  weak and  a machine  and luke was untrained  and ben was an old man  and that the jedi in PT  were in their prime and    fought  flashy  because of that.  well this is another example of lucas blowing smoke up  ppls  ass;s  and here is why

 

for one the whole ben was an old man argument   maskles no sense..yoda  was old  dooku was old..   that didnt stop them  from jumpoing around like ninja turltes..... general grivious  was all machine just abiout and it didnt stop him.....the  youngling  in  epuisoide 3  was  young and mostly untrained and he  looked like a  ninja turtle also...this is all mopre  LUCAS  biullshit trying to  excusxe   his prequel   junk...

 

heres the facts on the  dueling styles....ion the OT  era..lucas always  claimed that the jedi were a mix of   merlin the wizard and the knights of the round table.....hence him using old europeon  style  swod fighting....the same style sword fighting you  find  in  braveheart, gladiator, lord of the rings,  hifglander..etc..etc   and that style  was befitting of a jedi knight....

 

enter the  junkquels,,,,think about  what was popular  at this time..martial arts,  ninjas, pokemon,  yugi oh..etc..etc   lucas  changed the  dueling style to  eastern based martial arts style.     the   saber duels in the pt  looks just like sword fighting in any NINJA film or  samuari film. sure its pretty and it looks good  and i actually like it in martial arts films  but   not for star wars. it  looks  cherograhped and rehearsed.  there is nothing  real about it.

the  dueling in the OT has a sense of realsim to it.  in episode  5  when luke appraches  vader   he ignites his lightsaber...and takes a swing...vader blocks it calmpy...luke takes a step towards vader...vader   slowly  tkes a step  back  in a defensive  move....   if this had been the prequels  luke would have  done a back flip up the steps and  spinned around  4  times before even swinging on vader....vader would have done three  flips and spins  and twirlled his saber around    5 times   before  striking back at luke.

"The Truth" is a complicated thing, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about things George Lucas has said. I question any argument that includes quotes from Lucas as a basis.

It also seems odd that you use evidence from the PT (Dooku and Yoda lightsabering) to discredit the OT claim that Obi was old and out of practice.

The dueling styling in the OT changed considerably during the trilogy. Compare Obi/Darth to Luke/Darth II. At first Lucas insisted the lightsabers had to be worked two handed, but the fight choreographers convinced him to allow more one handed moves.

It seems to me that dramatically it makes sense that the duels are so different.

Obi/Darth= Old Man vs. Cyborg

Luke/Darth=Rookie vs. Cyborg who doesn't want to kill him

Maul/Qui/Obi= Sith Killing Machine vs. Two Jedi in their Prime

Obi/Anakin= Two best Jedi in the galaxy kicking ass.

I don't need Lucas to tell me any of those things. They seem obvious from the movies.

thats all nonsense.

the lightsaber duels in the OT  were cherographed  by  europeon fencers and swordsman. just like braveheart and gladiator and lord of the rings.  all you have to do is look  at the stances  and the behind the scenes. 

for the PT  lucas used asian based martial arts.  if you want to buy in to lucas  bullshit of  cyborg vs old man lol  you go right ahead.  the duels in the OT looked the way it did cause they were choreographed that way and meant to be that way and simple.

you  really think whenb lucas filmed the new hope battle he said  im gonna make this battle look weak and later on ill make them look fancy and smooth  because ben is old man and vader is a cyborg. lol.

this is just more of lucas bs to try and explain his junkquels.

like i said yoda and dooku  and many others on the council were OLD.   grivious was a cyborg.....none oif that prevented them from jumping around like ninjas.  keep  trying to excuse the  garbage.  the bottom line is he changed it  and then gave a bullshit spin story to try and excuse   and in turn belittles the OT in the process.

vader was a bad ass in the OT> he wasent crippled  he wasent burdened by  being part machine.  he was a bad  ass period.  and he was viewed as such up till the PT now its hard to even look at vader and not laugh when you think abnout the little whinning  baby brat  under neath  who  was so dumb and stupid he was  brainwashed and be;ieved the most stupid of lies.

but of course we have so CALLED  fans like your self who defend that crap. more power to you.  you  are part of the problem.  part of what is bringing starwars down.

prequel lovers  needs to take their  junkquels and their special editions  and form  a society all their own  because  to me they are not part of the REAL  star wars fan base.  the fan base who wants to hold on to the  truth  and  not believe in and back up  the lies that lucas and company spread.

true fans want to preserve the truth. not hold on to LIES and BULLSHIT

Thing that irks me the most is when the prequel Jedi constantly twirl the lightsaber in one hand for no reason. i guess it's just fun

OzoneSherrif said:

Thing that irks me the most is when the prequel Jedi constantly twirl the lightsaber in one hand for no reason. i guess it's just fun

thats what I mean by  ninja crap.  you  find that same exact things in any martial arts film.

rebel mission to ord mantel  is better written and more thought out than all the prequels combined

haljordan28 said:

TheBoost said:

"The Truth" is a complicated thing, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about things George Lucas has said. I question any argument that includes quotes from Lucas as a basis.

The dueling styling in the OT changed considerably during the trilogy. Compare Obi/Darth to Luke/Darth II. At first Lucas insisted the lightsabers had to be worked two handed, but the fight choreographers convinced him to allow more one handed moves.

It seems to me that dramatically it makes sense that the duels are so different.

Obi/Darth= Old Man vs. Cyborg

Luke/Darth=Rookie vs. Cyborg who doesn't want to kill him

Maul/Qui/Obi= Sith Killing Machine vs. Two Jedi in their Prime

Obi/Anakin= Two best Jedi in the galaxy kicking ass.

I don't need Lucas to tell me any of those things. They seem obvious from the movies.

 

the lightsaber duels in the OT  were cherographed  by  europeon fencers and swordsman. just like braveheart and gladiator and lord of the rings.  all you have to do is look  at the stances  and the behind the scenes. 

if you want to buy in to lucas  bullshit of  cyborg vs old man lol  you go right ahead.  the duels in the OT looked the way it did cause they were choreographed that way and meant to be that way and simple.

but of course we have so CALLED  fans like your self who defend that crap. more power to you.  you  are part of the problem.  part of what is bringing starwars down.

 

prequel lovers  needs to take their  junkquels and their special editions  and form  a society all their own  because  to me they are not part of the REAL  star wars fan base.  the fan base who wants to hold on to the  truth  and  not believe in and back up  the lies that lucas and company spread.

 

true fans want to preserve the truth. not hold on to LIES and BULLSHIT

I don't think George Lucas NEEDED to say "I have an old man and a man in a big clunky suit of armor" because unless you didn't notice THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE HAD. You have seen the movie, right?

Did you buy your "HAN SHOT FIRST" t-shirt one size to small, because it's apparently restricting blood flow to your brain.

OT choreographer Bob Anderson was an Olympic Fencer, but in case you didn't know, the lightsaber fights in the movie bears no resemblence to fencing. None at all. Rent "The Princess Bride" to see what that looks like (also by Bob Anderson).

Interesting that fights with Iron age short swords ("Gladiator") huge claymores ("Braveheart"), medieval longswords ("LOTR") and lazer-swords ("Star Wars") all look the same to you. This weakens your reputation as an expert in this field somewhat.

I'm no master swordsman, but the fighting in ROTJ looks passingly like Japanese (EDIT: That's in Asia FYI) kendo swordfighting at times, which interestingly enough is what Mark Hamill trained on. The movie fight also involves flying backflips and telekinesis, which admittedly aren't normally part of kendo.

As for us "so CALLED fans" v.s you "true fans," I'm guessing from your thought processes and typing that you're in junior high, so I've been a fan for about two decades longer than you. Show some respect junior.

There are many valid reasons to dislike the prequels. It's just that yours are dumb.

TheBoost said:

haljordan28 said:

TheBoost said:

"The Truth" is a complicated thing, ESPECIALLY when you're talking about things George Lucas has said. I question any argument that includes quotes from Lucas as a basis.

The dueling styling in the OT changed considerably during the trilogy. Compare Obi/Darth to Luke/Darth II. At first Lucas insisted the lightsabers had to be worked two handed, but the fight choreographers convinced him to allow more one handed moves.

It seems to me that dramatically it makes sense that the duels are so different.

Obi/Darth= Old Man vs. Cyborg

Luke/Darth=Rookie vs. Cyborg who doesn't want to kill him

Maul/Qui/Obi= Sith Killing Machine vs. Two Jedi in their Prime

Obi/Anakin= Two best Jedi in the galaxy kicking ass.

I don't need Lucas to tell me any of those things. They seem obvious from the movies.

 

the lightsaber duels in the OT  were cherographed  by  europeon fencers and swordsman. just like braveheart and gladiator and lord of the rings.  all you have to do is look  at the stances  and the behind the scenes. 

if you want to buy in to lucas  bullshit of  cyborg vs old man lol  you go right ahead.  the duels in the OT looked the way it did cause they were choreographed that way and meant to be that way and simple.

but of course we have so CALLED  fans like your self who defend that crap. more power to you.  you  are part of the problem.  part of what is bringing starwars down.

 

prequel lovers  needs to take their  junkquels and their special editions  and form  a society all their own  because  to me they are not part of the REAL  star wars fan base.  the fan base who wants to hold on to the  truth  and  not believe in and back up  the lies that lucas and company spread.

 

true fans want to preserve the truth. not hold on to LIES and BULLSHIT

I don't think George Lucas NEEDED to say "I have an old man and a man in a big clunky suit of armor" because unless you didn't notice THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE HAD. You have seen the movie, right?

Did you buy your "HAN SHOT FIRST" t-shirt one size to small, because it's apparently restricting blood flow to your brain.

OT choreographer Bob Anderson was an Olympic Fencer, but in case you didn't know, the lightsaber fights in the movie bears no resemblence to fencing. None at all. Rent "The Princess Bride" to see what that looks like (also by Bob Anderson).

Interesting that fights with Iron age short swords ("Gladiator") huge claymores ("Braveheart"), medieval longswords ("LOTR") and lazer-swords ("Star Wars") all look the same to you. This weakens your reputation as an expert in this field somewhat.

I'm no master swordsman, but the fighting in ROTJ looks passingly like Japanese (EDIT: That's in Asia FYI) kendo swordfighting at times, which interestingly enough is what Mark Hamill trained on. The movie fight also involves flying backflips and telekinesis, which admittedly aren't normally part of kendo.

As for us "so CALLED fans" v.s you "true fans," I'm guessing from your thought processes and typing that you're in junior high, so I've been a fan for about two decades longer than you. Show some respect junior.

There are many valid reasons to dislike the prequels. It's just that yours are dumb.

sorry but you  are dead wrong.   I do have training in  sword play  and ROTJ  wqas  strictly fencing and europeon. when vader says  he would go after leia and luke lunges out and  you  see like and vader heading to the bridge     the stances  are  as clear to see as the nose on your face.  its pure fencing.europeon.  i dont care if you believe it or not. it makes no difference to me.

and as far as vader being machine in a new hoipe you  are proving your ignorance once again.  at the time  lucas had not decided if vader  was  human or  cyborg under  the costume.  he said  he  worried how people would react  to  either  way.  he did not make that call till episode 5.  perhaops you need to do some more research before trying to run your mouth and look like a know it all.

and alex  it is clear as day you  are a prequel fan  and defend that junk.shit  till the end. so I am not going to argue with you.  go watch jar jar  and go  watch   anakin and padme talk about  course sand and go watch the pathetic circus performance lightsaber duels.  abnd be sure to count all the razzie awards while you  are at it.  for worst picture.worst director. worst actor,  worst screenplay  etc..etc

now excuse me while i go take a shit and wipe my  azz with a prequel picture.  I mean JUNKQUEL picture  or piece of shit picture....ahh whop cares   it all  comesdown to the same thing.  prequel. haha

captainsolo said:

The less times a lightsaber is activated onscreen, the better the movie.

I couldnt agree more.   try telling that to a JUNKQUEL fan  who gets a hard on  every time a lightsaber is lit up and  get a boner every time a jedi flips  30  times and twirls his saber in the air  for  10 mins for NO REASON what so ever. lol

alexrd  must  get off every time  he  sees a prequel haha

haljordan28 said:

TheBoost said:

There are many valid reasons to dislike the prequels. It's just that yours are dumb.

sorry but you  are dead wrong.   I do have training in  sword play  and ROTJ  wqas  strictly fencing and europeon. when vader says  he would go after leia and luke lunges out and  you  see like and vader heading to the bridge     the stances  are  as clear to see as the nose on your face.  its pure fencing.europeon.  i dont care if you believe it or not. it makes no difference to me.

 

and as far as vader being machine in a new hoipe you  are proving your ignorance once again.  at the time  lucas had not decided if vader  was  human or  cyborg under  the costume.  he said  he  worried how people would react  to  either  way.  he did not make that call till episode 5.  perhaops you need to do some more research before trying to run your mouth and look like a know it all.

You're 36 and have training in swordplay. Given that you apparently know jack about swords, and have the grammar and maturity of a low-performing 7th grader, those aren't exactly bragging. If you tell us you're 9 we might be impressed. If you really are 36, your posts are kinda sad.

But since you were there in the late 70s, no doubt first in line when "Star Wars" came out, you must have seen some special version where Obi-Wan isn't an old man and Vader isn't a lumbering giant with mechanized breathing and cumbersome armor. You also must have seen the Super-Secret-Original-Empire-Strikes-Back where Luke isn't unprepared to face Vader and doesn't get his ass kicked.

For the rest of us, those WERE in the movies we saw. So it makes perfect sense story wise that each lightsaber fight was more impressive than the last one.

And don't kid. Of COURSE it makes a huge difference to you if strangers on a message board believe you're a 36 year old sword master. It's probably the highlight of your weekend to claim that.

Oh man.  I tried to stay out of this thread but I just can't stand it anymore... 

NONE of the movies mentioned in this thread are good examples of fencing or kendo or any other REAL sport derived from sword fighting.  I've NEVER seen a movie that was totally accurate to "real" sword fighting & I've watched a lot of movies that have sword fights.  Even in movies that try to be accurate, you inevitably see at least a little bit of artistic license taken to add flourishes that, while they would never work in real life, look good on screen.  And Gladiator?  Please!  That movie features Russell Crowe swinging a gladius around like a cavalry saber.  The Roman gladius was designed to do ONE thing: stab at enemies from behind the protection of a huge frickin roman shield. It doesn't have the length or mass to develop the power needed to do something like...say... behead somebody.

And I'm sorry but "training in sword play"?  I took olympic fencing lessons for 3 years in college and I've practiced traditional Japanese kendo for about 4 years.  I can't imagine hearing anyone I've trained with call it "sword play".  They are sports.  They are derived from fighting techniques that were originally designed for military combat.  In the case of kendo, it's been a steady unbroken evolution over hundreds of years from military training and practice that become obsolete into a sport, which is really cool; but today it is still nothing but a sport.

As for the swordfights in Star Wars, the short answer is this.  In the OT, the fighting techniques were derived from European fencing AND Japanese kendo.  Nothing seen onscreen actually looks like real fencing or kendo, but it is clearly derived from it.  Both of these fencing styles use attack techniques that focus on and follow straight lines, meaning you move directly towards your opponent and strike directly. 

In the prequels, there was a shift to more chinese styled techniques.  Many chinese martial arts focus on circular motion, resulting in all the spinning and such.  It looks VERY  different (obviously). 

As for the twirling the lightsabers?  That's just cheap baton twirling to look fancy for ignorant people who don't realize that all it does is make a HUGE frickin opening for your oppenent to attack and kill you....  (I'd LOVE to see someone to try that in kendo!  even a beginner would mop the floor with them.)

EDIT:

For anyone interested, here's a pretty good video showing about as close as you can get to a "real" sword fight these days.  It's highlights from the 2007 All Japan Kendo Championship.  These guys are REALLY good.  & the video shows lots of cool slow-mo stuff so you can actually see what's happening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SHWXQBVL4

Thanks for that video, it was pretty sweet.

It also demonstrates exactly why we never see realistic swordfighting in movies.  It all happens in the span of about two seconds, then one person has a sword in his brain.  Not very cinematic.

Understandably lightsaber fighting should be different from any form of conventional sword fighting on this planet.

The blade can cut through almost anything without adding physical force.

Just lightly brushing against the blade could have lethal consequences.

The fighter's own blade would be as dangerous as their opponent's too.

Also the people using them have superhuman reflexes.

Where Lucas went wrong was not matching the ability of the OT characters to those in the PT like with like.

Dooku spins, cartwheels, leaps and kicks in a way that makes Ben look...well like a real old guy using a sword.

He is meant to be a Sith but does that turn him into superman?

Vader is a cyborg in the OT and yes he only has two arms and his hands don't spin at the wrist (which begs the question why if he is a more advanced cyborg?) but he is also a powerful Force user so he should have an edge over a non-Sith, non-Jedi Cyborg even with his extra spindles.

The cyborg/old man line doesn't really hold that much water with me.

The most compelling duels for me were the delicate dance in ANH and the careful but forceful style of ESB.

ROTJ seemed more of a bashing match to me but part of that was the set design which didn't allow for interesting camera angles.

The duel in ESB is beautifully framed.

I like the lightsaber fight in TPM.  As I said, I actually like the film, just not as much as any of the OT.

ROTS has its moments.  They're very few and far between, though, and don't make up for the poor, disjointed plotting.

I stand by my theory that everything that happens in ROTS should have happened over the course of all three prequels - cramming them all into ROTS makes for a very disjointed, hyperactive film that just doesn't feel like a cohesive whole at all.

Hell, even AOTC has its moments.  And by that, I mean Obi-Wan's detective work, and that's about it.  The rest of that movie blows pretty hard.