Thanks satanika for the samples,but you wouldn't happen to have some video with those would you?
I do not have 5.1 on my PC,but I would gladly burn test VIDEO_TS clips and listen to them on my Home Theater and give you feedback.
Hopefully this will work...
The Monkey King - Uproar In heaven (1965) Restoration/Preservation Project
Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) BBC 1.66:1 & Theatrical 2.35:1 preservations
I'm confused. From what I've read, all you seem to be doing is boosting the lower frequencies of the current mix by however many decibels (3 I think).
That's not a LFE track. LFE is low frequency effects, not just the low frequencies louder. Many people already have their home theaters configured so that frequencies below a certain number of Hz gets routed to their subwoofer.
This is because a lot of the F/R/RS/LS/C speakers in home theater setups don't have good articulation of the low frequencies and the subwoofer is asked to do the job of a normal woofer. (That is, LFE does not equal Subwoofer). Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with this since bass is largely non-directional.
True LFE are frequencies usually below 40-50Hz (though they can start as high as 80-120Hz for smoother transition from the other speakers frequencies). The audio tracks you are working with should not contain frequencies this low because home equipment is not expected to be able to articulate it. (I haven't checked, the laserdisc PCM data MAY contain frequencies this low, but I wouldn't count on it.)
Your current method is only overdriving the current normal low frequencies. You can do this at home by going into your tuner and increasing the volume of your subwoofer relative to the rest of your speakers. (Some subwoofers even have a separate volume knob right on them.)
In fact, your current method runs the risk of causing clipping (volumes so louder the peaks are flattened and crappy sounding).
The best way to do make an LFE track would probably be to strip the LFE track from the official 5.1 mix and sync it to the mix you'd like to use.
Another idea, while it's more theoretical at this point, would be to find frequencies below 80-100hz, and copy them to a new track then pitch-shift them down about 25Hz.
I don't know how it would sound, but it's an interesting idea.
Otherwise, I'd strongly recommend against your method.
Dr. M
@Satanika,
method 1b & 3b are very,very nice,1b has the nice rumble feeling,3b seems to be lessened a wee bit,method 1 & 3 are OK,but not as good as there b counterparts.
Method 2 & 2b are really bad,both make the rear surround speakers crackle really bad,had to shut these 2 off ASAP,so I would scrap those altogether.
Do you have these in full form ready for the GOUT DVD's?
also check your PM's
Doctor M said:The best way to do make an LFE track would probably be to strip the LFE track from the official 5.1 mix and sync it to the mix you'd like to use.
And that is actually what hairy_hen has done I believe. It is a proper lfe track.
For the comparisons I simply included also a derived lfe to put to to the test.
..
Ok, the methods were 1=active matrix, 2=farina, 3=V.I and the b's were with h_h's lfe... So pretty much what I expected :)
I can make these pretty quickly, 448kbps ac3 ok or is there need for a dts in 768 and/or 1536 kbps?
The Monkey King - Uproar In heaven (1965) Restoration/Preservation Project
Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) BBC 1.66:1 & Theatrical 2.35:1 preservations
satanika said:Doctor M said:The best way to do make an LFE track would probably be to strip the LFE track from the official 5.1 mix and sync it to the mix you'd like to use.
And that is actually what hairy_hen has done I believe. It is a proper lfe track.
For the comparisons I simply included also a derived lfe to put to to the test...
Ok, the methods were 1=active matrix, 2=farina, 3=V.I and the b's were with h_h's lfe... So pretty much what I expected :)
I can make these pretty quickly, 448kbps ac3 ok or is there need for a dts in 768 and/or 1536 kbps?
personally I would like 448 ac3 and both the 768 & 1536 DTS,I can always find uses for them,so will you have versions for all 3 films?
also did you see your PM?
Thanks
Here's what I've thought about and learned since the last post.
I don't remember what source you're using, but I would THINK DD2.0 tracks or similar lack lower end frequencies (because they intend you to use a .1 channel for anything really low.)
I can't prove what the cut off is because I don't have access to an official DD 2.0 soundtrack of SW.
My RtW preservation uses PCM from a laserdisc rip. Here is a frequency analysis of ANH:
As you can see there is definitely low frequency there.
Here's a close up below 200Hz:
Now here's the deal, boosting the lower end is still not a good idea. In fact the LFE is suppose to be mixed 10db lower in volume. (Home theaters are calibrated to play the LFE track back 10db louder to compensate.)
Modern stereos have Pro Logic II or better. If the frequencies are there, it will use them. DPL2 upmixes properly to 5.1. The work is done for you.
That's also the problem. Not everyone has DPL2 in their equipment. Older Pro Logic means 4.0 surround upmixes.
So what do you do if you don't want to use the space on a DVD for PCM or assume that everyone has DPLII or better? Transcode it yourself.
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=83384 is a great guide (though a bit out of date since ffdshow can now output directly to an ac3 file).
I was going to provide a sample of how this works, but I've got PowerDVD problems (which is the what I was using in the chain to encode the DPLII).
Dr. M
Dr. M, your posts are confusing me, are you talking to me about the upmix clips or hairy_hen about his lfe?
Where do you get this about boosting the lower frequencies? Is the lfe at too high a volume??
The point about creating a 5.1 ac3/dts is that you can't use the dpl2 on your receiver on a 2.1 (93 dpl+h_h lfe) track, since it will override the lfe... And of course everyone are free to do their own upmix if they want/can.
The Monkey King - Uproar In heaven (1965) Restoration/Preservation Project
Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) BBC 1.66:1 & Theatrical 2.35:1 preservations
Seconding confusion about what exactly is being referred to . . . I did no filtering or boosting of low frequencies from the 2.0 soundtracks of any kind. Those I left strictly alone, except for minor alterations such as getting rid of the breaking glass in SW, etc. The '93 tracks have some cool bass in places, and I left them just as they were in the main channels where they belong. My LFE is derived from the special edition dvd 5.1 tracks and synchronised to the GOUT, and thus are true low frequency effects. I haven't done a frequency analysis but a lot of the content is definitely quite low, 30-40 hz range. By contrast what appears in the '93 mixes is largely mid/upper bass, more like 60-120 hz.
Just how much of the special edition LFE can be said to be original and how much was created anew, I'm not sure. Nearly all of it blends in very well with the main channels--it seems likely that at least some of it would have been in the 70mm soundtracks, beyond what already appears in the '93 mixes. The most obvious new effects were the ones that accompanied changed CGI shots--those I had to tone down significantly to get them to blend--and a few others had to be reduced as well, but less drastically. A couple times I actually boosted the volume, but those were less common.
Given how well the LFE integrates overall, I'm pretty sure that in many cases they simply took the original sound elements, pitch-shifted them downwards an octave or two, then amplified the hell out of them. I like to think that my results achieve a "70mm-ish" feel for the three movies, but I don't claim that this exactly represents those versions. It just sounds really cool. :)
The 5.1 upmixes will be in a.b.sw shortly.
Also, the anh restored mono mix & theatrical stereo was upped there as well.
The Monkey King - Uproar In heaven (1965) Restoration/Preservation Project
Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) BBC 1.66:1 & Theatrical 2.35:1 preservations
Thanks satanika.
should have ALL files you posted in an hour or so,Thanks again.
hairy_hen said:Realising that not everyone has the main channels from the 1993 laserdiscs to combine with the LFE tracks I posted above, I decided to upload my AC3 files for each film to make this more accessible for those who might be interested in it. They are all in 2.1 format, encoded in Aften at 448 kbps using all the maximum quality settings, split into several RARs. See above comments about using DTS mode to achieve surround sound if desired.
Star Wars:
part 1: http://www.sendspace.com/file/s8ngzo
part 2: http://www.sendspace.com/file/nc68mk
part 3: http://www.sendspace.com/file/xdz3x5
part 4: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rqfjek
First of all, thanks.
Is the 1.017s delay added to these files or do I have to do it myself?
If someone even had a print in their collection with the magnetic six track 70mm baby boom, hoping that the magnetic elements had not warped or degraded or gone to vinegar due to time. How would you capture the audio?
I have heard of people buying prints or trailers of movies with a dts track and being unsucessful with getting the audio off of them. Apparenly you need very highly expensive theater equipment that can read the dts discs.
I have never seen a preservation of the 1997 dts mixes for star wars and probably never will.
They probably made very few dts 70mm prints.
The most common is the dolby. Similar to what ended up on the 97 special edition laserdiscs, and the newly made mix on the 2004 dvd.
Are there any Lucas dvd out there with dts? As far as i am aware there are none.
Spielberg is one of the people that championed dts, but since 1977 lucas has always been attached to dolby. Not sure if they have some deal or agreement or if he just prefers his films in that audio format.
“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.
Is the 1.017s delay added to these files or do I have to do it myself?
All the files I posted have the correct amount of delay added already. 1.017s for Star Wars, 0.948s for Empire, and 1.015s for Jedi. All set to combine and synch correctly with the GOUT. :)
Excellent!
Hmm, I can only chose neo on my reciever if the sound is LPCM. When it's AC3 I have to settle with dplII. I guess I have to play it in stereo mode to get the LFE to work, judging by earlier post's. I can live without the center and surrounds
Hmm, that's unfortunate. My receiver works fine with Neo 6 on the AC3 tracks, upmixing to surround and keeping the LFE intact, but I guess it depends a lot on the equipment you have.
They do sound great in stereo mode, but if you have newsgroup access, Satanika made 5.1 versions using the LFE tracks and the Prologic 2 process. I can't get on newsgroups anymore, so I don't have them myself, but I'm sure they sound excellent.
I don't have a full 5.1 setup, only 2.1 right now, so I can't completely describe the differences between the upmixing algorithms, but from what I can hear with just two speakers, Neo 6 has greater channel separation--the rear channel effects come almost entirely from the back, and the center information is removed from the left and right front channels to a greater extent. With Prologic 2 there seems to be a bit more overlap between them. Putting the speakers into the rear outputs, it seems like Neo 6 also removes the dialogue from the rears more as well. It's tough to find detailed comparisons of the two, but that's what I've been able to find out. I've heard some of Star Wars in Prologic 2 on a full 5.1 setup once, and it sounded good to me--I imagine both versions deliver good results, just a bit different. Getting the 5.1 version may be the best thing to do for surround purposes.
Thanks for the heads up.
No newsgroups for me either.
2.1 will do just fine. That's the way I played my 95 SW LD's for many years before.
Update:
It works when I switch to analog from digital. The manual came to use for once
Cool! Glad to hear it's all working out. Are you using a multichannel analog connection?
Nope. Just the regular two stereo contacts.
The reciever needs an analog signal to work with some of the surround mode's apparently.
Neo 6 Channel(or DPLII 6 channel) and LPCM from Laserdisc "beats" every DD 5.1 track I've ever played on DVD. IMHO, a really great upgrade to the old and pretty lousy dolby prologic which I never liked.
I don't think you're going to get the LFE track if you use a stereo analog connection--it's only going to give you the main channels, at least on any setup I've ever seen. If it did put the LFE in, it would probably cause clipping and distortion . . . hmm. Or are you just using Neo 6 mode for it straight 2 channel sources? I'm a bit confused.
Discrete 5.1 can sound really good compared to upmixing, but it depends on the mix--sometimes it's done wrong and sounds gimmicky and fake. Having an uncompressed soundtrack is going to sound better than lossy in most cases, this is true. Depends on the quality of the source.
I think you are right. I have been trying a few different things and I don't get that punch from the sub that I thought. I'm not great with the technical stuff... It was worth a try though and thanks for yer help.
Hmm.. what would happen if you downmixed the 2.1 to 2.0? Would that make any sense?? Integrating the lfe in the mix.
The Monkey King - Uproar In heaven (1965) Restoration/Preservation Project
Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) BBC 1.66:1 & Theatrical 2.35:1 preservations
I considered doing it that way when I first started, but I realised it wasn't going to work. The LFE really needs its own separate channel, because it has to be played a lot louder than the rest of the mix to get the full effect. The bass information is encoded 10 decibels lower than it is intended to be played back so that it can have more headroom--the receiver/processor increases the gain to where it should be when the signal is decoded. Mixing the bass into the mains at +10db would cause severe clipping in many instances, and if you didn't give it the boost it would hardly sound any 'bassier' than just playing the mains by themselves. If not using multichannel analog or a digital connection, the LFE is probably going to be dropped, also.
It looks like playing my files in straight 2.1 mode or else obtaining the 5.1 versions are the only ways it's going to work, here.