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You are needed. A ROTJ remake - Do you want to help?

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 (Edited)

Made the following story sketch a while back ago in early May of last year. It is from an idea that came to me; does anyone want to help with this? It would be greatly appreciated, as you have undoubtedly guessed it would be. I need all the help I can get. Please prove to me that my trust can go to the people on this forum. You are all good, moral people, as can easily be seen by the general threads/postings on this forum. Thought I would bring this project here, in order to present it to all of you. You are all undoubtedly worthy.

How does a remake of Return of the Jedi sound? Is anyone interested in hearing about the plan? Mainly, it is an idea that if we take certain scenes from Return of the Jedi, and mesh them together with remakes of the plot, we can all really get pretty far in making Star Wars the way we want it. The following story sketch outlines the main points in the new plot:

SWIU Version of
REVENGE OF THE JEDI

http://www.leiasmetalbikini.com/topps3.jpg

Here are the basic alternations I have made to ROTJ:

-Han dies in the carbonite.

-Lando is dragged into the Sarlacc pit.

-Luke and Leia begin their relationship together.

-Wookies on Endor, with Chewy as the peacemaker, help the Rebel Alliance.

-Leena, Luke’s sister, is found on Endor, on a human settlement.

-Yoda did not die in ROTJ. He lived long enough afterwards, even to train Luke’s children in the ways of the Jedi.

Now, here are some things that are of an ‘Expanded Universe’. I will add on to them if I get enough replies to this thread.

-Leia sneaks away at night, while Luke is sleeping. She boards the Millenium Falcon, on the Rebel ship that was seen at the end of ESB (forgot name), and takes Lando and Chewy with her, who were taking room in the Falcon.

-They agree to try to save Han Solo, from Jabba, on the planet Geonosh. There, he has a hidden hideout that few know of. Lando knows of the hideout.

-Imperial ships follow the Falcon from a great distance. Leia, Lando, Chewy break into the hideout. There is a small battle. Leia quickly goes and unmelts Han, and finds out that he died while frozen. Jabba’s henchman capture them, locking Lando and Chewy in the dungeons below the hideout. Leia is left to be the slave of Jabba.

-Luke sees these images in a dream, and gets aboard his X-Wing. The Imperial ships track him down, and follow him to the hideout. When he gets there, Lando and Chewy are about to be thrown into the Sarlacc pit, and Leia is chained to Jabba.

-Imperial Stormtroopers come. There is a large battle. During the battle, Lando falls into pit, tries to get back out, but a tentacle grabs him and drags him down, where he undoubtedly dies.

-During the fight, Leia chokes Jabba with the chain tide to her.

-Luke, Leia, Chewy, escape barely.


-They go the a Rebel spaceship, and attend the meeting on the new plans to destroy the Death Star.
-That night, Luke and Leia begin a relationship.


-They travel to Endor, etc. Epic (and classic) speeder battle in the forests of the moon.

  • They meet up with Wookies, and Chewy serves as a translator of sorts, and gets them to join.

-Luke feels the force drawing him towards a nearby village of humans.

-Finds Leena, and tells her of who she truly is, after hearing the voice of Obi-Wan telling him that he is right indeed, and that she is his sister.


-Battle of Endor.

-Luke goes to Death Star, etc.

-Leena, Chewy, and Ackbar lead X-Wings against Death Star, and destroy it.


Ending: Large celebration in Leena’s village, and Wookies are present. Luke, Leia, Leena, Chewy, 3PO, and Artoo, are grouped together, watching the celebration.


NOTE: Everything I didn’t explain in further detail, followed closely enough to the normal ROTJ (Return of the Jedi), that it was unnecessary to ramble on. I wanted to give a general idea about the major differences. I will be adding more things, and putting new twists in.


http://fanart.theforce.net/museum/images/Classic_Trilogy/tn_jabba.jpg

If best comes to best, or otherwise, we could always simply make a novel-sized story with images to support the theme. Mainly, we want to redo Return of the Jedi to better accomodate logic. The movie of ROTJ was half-assed… we want to go back and complete it, if not redo it as you have seen an example of in the above article.

So what do you friends think?

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Please tell me your Joking?

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Leena? No thanks. I like Leia as Luke's sister better.
"I am altering the movies. Pray I don't alter them any further." -Darth Lucas
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Originally posted by: Ell the Ewok
So you wnt to butcher my fav episode of the Saga with near imposable new stuff and dodgey new story? No thanks, I like jediu the way it is.

Btw, not that anyone here cares but this goes against the PT.


I concur.
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I guess these "good, moral" people are doing the "good, moral" thing and leaving the film unaltered, just as George should have done.
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There's no man for Leia, but Han Solo! Blasphemy I say.
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What is this? You just all freaked out.


This thread is for those who think that Return of the Jedi was half-assed and rushed through. Some people only like "Star Wars" and "Star Wars: ESB" because they told a strong story.

Just because you disagree doesn't mean you have to come in and piss all over this thread. I wanted to gather like-minded people who wanted to see about perhaps making a different version of Episode VI.

Some think that ROTJ was when Lucas' began getting too full of himself. And he did a half-assed job, unlike the first two.
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i like youre outline seems more in line with what gary kurtz was talking about. dont know exactly what you want us to do though
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I think this thread would probably better fit in the preservation forum instead.
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I don't see what the matter with this is. I kinda like the idea. And I know several people here are disappointed with Return of the Jedi. It's not as if he's suggesting replacing the existing movie. It's basically just fan-fiction.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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You'll need to turn your PM's on, SWIU, if you want me to respond to the one you sent me.


I think you're a very nice person and don't deserve to get flamed. But I think you've made several mistakes which may have induced the backlash.

I'll explain those mistakes and answer your questions in detail in my response to your PM.


--InfoDroid

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Geez, I really don't see what all the backlash is about. I'm not necessarily saying I want to be involved, but his outline is pretty nice. And it's a creative idea. And considering this forum has a huge section devoted to fan edits, why all the damned flaming?!

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I do apologize if my post came across as a flame. I don't have anything to do with this project. There are a lot of good ideas presented there, since Jedi could've been way better than it was. I personally always liked it though cause I saw it when I was 6 orignally and didn't know any better. I just don't think Leia would hook up with Luke so quickly after Han dying, that's all. But that's just my view of the GFFA. If you wanna do it otherwise, that's totally your call. Good luck!
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Originally posted by: StarWarsIsUs


How does a remake of Return of the Jedi sound?

Just about as bad as any other remake that has been proposed, produced, or released. Don't get me wrong, there's a few good ones, but the rule of thumb is REMAKE==BAD. I don't see why one would want to tempt fate and flout this rule unless one had a very good reason.

-Han dies in the carbonite.

But ESB established that he survived the freezing process. There was never any question, hint, or suspicion that he would die after being encased in carbonite. Threepio's words were, IIRC, "He should be quite well preserved, if he survived the freezing process, that is." Lando confirmed that Han did, in fact, survive. So he shouldn't die in carbonite.

-Lando is dragged into the Sarlacc pit.

For what purpose? I could maybe see him dying* in order to set things right, karmically, for betraying his friend. There are interesting dramatic possibilities with Han waking up, still hating Lando, while everyone around him is in mourning for the heroic Baron-Administrator. But if you kill Lando -- after killing Han -- then you've turned the rescue operation into a big bloodbath that accomplishes nothing. You're left with Leia writing in her diary, "Well, my boyfriend's dead, and my new friend Lando is dead because we tried to save my boyfriend, not knowing he was dead, and I got repeatedly raped by a Hutt, but we did manage to kill lots of people today!"

* Of course, people who fall into the Pit of Carkoon are not really dead, they're in torment for a thousand years as they're slowly digested. This just puts them in a Schroedinger's Cat box, from which a future writer can retrieve them alive at any point, or decline to retrieve them and treat them as dead, viz. Boba Fett.

-Luke and Leia begin their relationship together.

That's so creepy.

-Wookies on Endor, with Chewy as the peacemaker, help the Rebel Alliance.

-Leena, Luke's sister, is found on Endor, on a human settlement.

Why is there a human settlement on Endor? First of all, what do you mean by Endor?

The filmic Endor is a sanctuary world, inhabited by a primitive people. There is no commerce there, no communication, no interest whatsoever in the Endor system by the galactic community. That's why the Death Star II was built there. It was a secret military project, so they did it out in the middle of nowhere.

If you add Wookies, you make things a bit more complex. Wookies -- at least, every one in the trilogy up to this point -- are a spacefaring race. They travel the galaxy. It would be hard to keep a secret from the entire galaxy (modulo several Bothans and the Rebel Alliance) if your secret is being built in orbit of a member world of the galactic community.

We might be able to fix this by making the Wookies primitives (taller Ewoks), or making the entire Wookie system a forbidden zone like Soviet military towns. But adding in a human settlement throws another monkeywrench (Wookiespanner?) into the works. By this point, the Death Star might as well not be a secret project at all. And if it's not a secret, you can build it where it will be more plainly visible, say, in orbit of Coruscant (or Had Abaddon) where it will serve as a potent symbol for the Imperial Potentate.

-Yoda did not die in ROTJ. He lived long enough afterwards, even to train Luke's children in the ways of the Jedi.

Now, here are some things that are of an 'Expanded Universe'. I will add on to them if I get enough replies to this thread.

-Leia sneaks away at night, while Luke is sleeping. She boards the Millenium Falcon, on the Rebel ship that was seen at the end of ESB (forgot name), and takes Lando and Chewy with her, who were taking room in the Falcon.

I'm a bit confused about the timeline. Lando and Chewie left with the Falcon just as Luke's recovery was ending, promising to contact Leia when they found Boba Fett. It must've taken them at least a day or two to get eyes on their target -- either in the official version or yours. Then maybe another day to communicate with the Rebel Alliance, locate Leia, and move to her position. I don't see the Senator from Alderaan, the Princess Leia Organa hanging around on a hospital ship waiting for the Falcon to get back. If nothing else, she would've felt bad that she was taking resources needed by injured comrades and moved to another ship (possibly Home One).

-They agree to try to save Han Solo, from Jabba, on the planet Geonosh. There, he has a hidden hideout that few know of. Lando knows of the hideout.

-Imperial ships follow the Falcon from a great distance. Leia, Lando, Chewy break into the hideout. There is a small battle. Leia quickly goes and unmelts Han, and finds out that he died while frozen. Jabba's henchman capture them, locking Lando and Chewy in the dungeons below the hideout. Leia is left to be the slave of Jabba.

We've already seen the following-the-Falcon-at-a-distance trick. And ANH pretty firmly established that no one follows the Falcon when her hyperdrive is working correctly. Not your local bulk cruisers, and not even the big Corellian ships.

-Luke sees these images in a dream, and gets aboard his X-Wing. The Imperial ships track him down, and follow him to the hideout. When he gets there, Lando and Chewy are about to be thrown into the Sarlacc pit, and Leia is chained to Jabba.


When did the Imperials get so good at tracking people down and following them? They couldn't even locate any of Leia's cell without scouring the galaxy with probe droids in ESB, and now they seem to be one step ahead of the game at every turn.

-Imperial Stormtroopers come. There is a large battle. During the battle, Lando falls into pit, tries to get back out, but a tentacle grabs him and drags him down, where he undoubtedly dies.


So I guess you're for removing the dialogue that establishes the Pit as a place of torture, not immediate death? If Jabba just wants to kill people, why doesn't he simply shoot them? That's not his style. Jabba wants to see people die, or know that they're somewhere uncomfortable marking month number two of a thousand year sentence. Pushing them down a hole isn't his style.

-During the fight, Leia chokes Jabba with the chain tide to her.

-Luke, Leia, Chewy, escape barely.



----------------

-They go the a Rebel spaceship, and attend the meeting on the new plans to destroy the Death Star.
-That night, Luke and Leia begin a relationship.


That sounds like a euphemism. "No, Artoo, Master Luke can't see you right now. He and Mistress Leia are in their quarters, beginning a relationsip." Sister or no, it's still creepy.

----------------

-They travel to Endor, etc. Epic (and classic) speeder battle in the forests of the moon.

- They meet up with Wookies, and Chewy serves as a translator of sorts, and gets them to join.


Translator? All he can do is growl. Is he supposed to translate Wookie A to Wookie B? Maybe he could translate the archaic Old Church Wookie spoken by the Wookie Patriarch into Modern Standard Wookie. Of course, the only person left alive who can understand Chewie is C-3PO, given that Han is dead. And Threepio can translate well enough without Chewie; he is fluent in over six million forms of communication.

I mean, really, Chewie as a translator?

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-Luke feels the force drawing him towards a nearby village of humans.

-Finds Leena, and tells her of who she truly is, after hearing the voice of Obi-Wan telling him that he is right indeed, and that she is his sister.


Unless you have a string of sequels planned, introducing a new character as Luke's sister (and, I suppose, the Other that Yoda spoke of) is wrong in so many ways. Mainly because Leia as his sister was right in so many ways. It provided closure, healing (Luke lost a father but gained a sister), and new meaning to the two previous films. It elegantly resolved a love triangle by turning it into classic comedy at the very moment when such levity was appropriate, if not much-needed. I think, if you want to take all that away and call it an improvement, you need to justify it.

----------------

-Battle of Endor.

-Luke goes to Death Star, etc.

-Leena, Chewy, and Ackbar lead X-Wings against Death Star, and destroy it.


She can fly, too?

Wait, Ackbar can fly, too? With those big rubbery hands?

(snip)
If best comes to best, or otherwise, we could always simply make a novel-sized story with images to support the theme. Mainly, we want to redo Return of the Jedi to better accomodate logic. The movie of ROTJ was half-assed... we want to go back and complete it, if not redo it as you have seen an example of in the above article.


Yeah, that was George Lucas's argument, too. It's not done and he needs to "complete it."

So what do you friends think?


I got angry when George added Coruscant, all the way back in 1997. (Thanks, Mr. Allston, for helping me laugh at that!) If I don't think George should be fooling around with Return of the Jedi anymore, well ....
"It's the stoned movie you don't have to be stoned for." -- Tom Shales on Star Wars
Scruffy's gonna die the way he lived.
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Scruffy,

in due time I will respond back to your comments. Many of them are 100% self-explanatory anyway, and I am embarassed for you on a few of those comments up there. In due time... I shall reply to them.

Just to let you know I'm not ignoring you.

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Just about as bad as any other remake that has been proposed, produced, or released. Don't get me wrong, there's a few good ones, but the rule of thumb is REMAKE==BAD. I don't see why one would want to tempt fate and flout this rule unless one had a very good reason.

FIRST OFF. I am not George Lucas. Neither are you. It would be a fan-made "remake". I can't go sell this to millions of people and make it an official change to the canon. You're taking it far too literally, and far too painfully.

But ESB established that he survived the freezing process. There was never any question, hint, or suspicion that he would die after being encased in carbonite. Threepio's words were, IIRC, "He should be quite well preserved, if he survived the freezing process, that is." Lando confirmed that Han did, in fact, survive. So he shouldn't die in carbonite.

Established facts gets debunked all the time. Just because you survived a car crash doesn't mean you aren't going to die in the hospital at a later time. Just because the doctor says you will live, doesn't mean it's completely impossible for you to die the exact same evening. There was strong doubt in everyone at that time whether Han would live or not. And it made Leia's kiss to Han much more meaningful if he never got to see her again. In ROTJ, it is so cut-and-dry that it pretty much renders the sad ending of ESB assinine and pointless. There is no lasting effect of loss or slight darkness.

For what purpose? I could maybe see him dying* in order to set things right, karmically, for betraying his friend. There are interesting dramatic possibilities with Han waking up, still hating Lando, while everyone around him is in mourning for the heroic Baron-Administrator. But if you kill Lando -- after killing Han -- then you've turned the rescue operation into a big bloodbath that accomplishes nothing. You're left with Leia writing in her diary, "Well, my boyfriend's dead, and my new friend Lando is dead because we tried to save my boyfriend, not knowing he was dead, and I got repeatedly raped by a Hutt, but we did manage to kill lots of people today!"

* Of course, people who fall into the Pit of Carkoon are not really dead, they're in torment for a thousand years as they're slowly digested. This just puts them in a Schroedinger's Cat box, from which a future writer can retrieve them alive at any point, or decline to retrieve them and treat them as dead, viz. Boba Fett.


Just how much time would you want to waste in the movie by having Han and Lando fight over a strained friendship? by losing Han, we lose an anti-hero who became a hero. That is tragic. It is disturbing. It makes for a more lasting effect after the movie is done.

By the way: DID I SAY LANDO DIES RIGHT AWAY?!?!? No. Your argument about 'surviving sarlacc pits while you're slowely digested' is meaningless to this certain article I made. It's nitpicking and irrelevant. Those are the words that come to mind while reading your replies, my friend. "Nitpicking" and "irrelevant".

Why is there a human settlement on Endor? First of all, what do you mean by Endor?

The filmic Endor is a sanctuary world, inhabited by a primitive people. There is no commerce there, no communication, no interest whatsoever in the Endor system by the galactic community. That's why the Death Star II was built there. It was a secret military project, so they did it out in the middle of nowhere.

If you add Wookies, you make things a bit more complex. Wookies -- at least, every one in the trilogy up to this point -- are a spacefaring race. They travel the galaxy. It would be hard to keep a secret from the entire galaxy (modulo several Bothans and the Rebel Alliance) if your secret is being built in orbit of a member world of the galactic community.

We might be able to fix this by making the Wookies primitives (taller Ewoks), or making the entire Wookie system a forbidden zone like Soviet military towns. But adding in a human settlement throws another monkeywrench (Wookiespanner?) into the works. By this point, the Death Star might as well not be a secret project at all. And if it's not a secret, you can build it where it will be more plainly visible, say, in orbit of Coruscant (or Had Abaddon) where it will serve as a potent symbol for the Imperial Potentate.

I added Wookies. There are no Ewoks in this version. A primitive human settlement of a tiny size would most likely not be noticed by the Empire. Even on our planet it is not rare to find tiny settlements smack-dab in the middle of Nowhere Central. The village probably wouldn't know (or care) about the Death Star construction. Your comments really piss me off, dude. They really piss me off.

I'm a bit confused about the timeline. Lando and Chewie left with the Falcon just as Luke's recovery was ending, promising to contact Leia when they found Boba Fett. It must've taken them at least a day or two to get eyes on their target -- either in the official version or yours. Then maybe another day to communicate with the Rebel Alliance, locate Leia, and move to her position. I don't see the Senator from Alderaan, the Princess Leia Organa hanging around on a hospital ship waiting for the Falcon to get back. If nothing else, she would've felt bad that she was taking resources needed by injured comrades and moved to another ship (possibly Home One).

After finding the exact location of Jabba's hideout they came back to get Luke and Leia. Like they probably (we never know for sure) did in the real ROTJ movie. They needed sleep though. They waited until they got some sleep before all journeying back to Jabba's hideout. But Leia decided to leave early because she was desperate. By 'night' I obviously mean when they all were resting and sleeping.

We've already seen the following-the-Falcon-at-a-distance trick. And ANH pretty firmly established that no one follows the Falcon when her hyperdrive is working correctly. Not your local bulk cruisers, and not even the big Corellian ships.


Maybe they don't use full hyperdrive this time. Maybe it had an Imperial tracking device attached to it.

So I guess you're for removing the dialogue that establishes the Pit as a place of torture, not immediate death? If Jabba just wants to kill people, why doesn't he simply shoot them? That's not his style. Jabba wants to see people die, or know that they're somewhere uncomfortable marking month number two of a thousand year sentence. Pushing them down a hole isn't his style.


Here is another example of you nitpicking. Who's to say they didn't BREAK THEIR NECKS WHILE FALLING INTO THE PIT? NO ONE KNOWS WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENS TO THEM, JUST THAT THEY PROBABLY DO INDEED DIE.


Translator? All he can do is growl. Is he supposed to translate Wookie A to Wookie B? Maybe he could translate the archaic Old Church Wookie spoken by the Wookie Patriarch into Modern Standard Wookie. Of course, the only person left alive who can understand Chewie is C-3PO, given that Han is dead. And Threepio can translate well enough without Chewie; he is fluent in over six million forms of communication.

I mean, really, Chewie as a translator?


Here is an example so you can maybe understand. I sincerely hopes this helps you.

Leia: Tell them we want to make peace. Tell them we need their help.

Chewie: *turns to Wookies and growls stuff.*

I sincerely hope that helps you understand where I was coming from. -_-


Unless you have a string of sequels planned, introducing a new character as Luke's sister (and, I suppose, the Other that Yoda spoke of) is wrong in so many ways. Mainly because Leia as his sister was right in so many ways. It provided closure, healing (Luke lost a father but gained a sister), and new meaning to the two previous films. It elegantly resolved a love triangle by turning it into classic comedy at the very moment when such levity was appropriate, if not much-needed. I think, if you want to take all that away and call it an improvement, you need to justify it.



Please. Do not insult yourself. Do not insult me, either. You said "elegantly resolved a love triangle by turning it into classic comedy"...... Okay. There are many things wrong with what you said. If you were that much of an 'elegant' thinker, you would have been able to formulate the answers to your own questions; but instead, I have to answer them for you. There is nothing wrong with that... but... you get my meaning.

She can fly, too?

Wait, Ackbar can fly, too? With those big rubbery hands?


She is strong in the Force just as Luke was. Raised in a primitive village, the Force did not withold itself from Leena.

Luke didn't lose a father. His father was already long lost to evil. He gained him back by convincing him to be non-evil. And now his father's spirit can be with him forever.

Luke won a sister. AND a lover. That is the greatness behind my version. He got the girl he wanted from when he first saved her in Episode IV. He also found his sister. A win-win-win situation. Much like in the actual ROTJ... but unlike the actual ROTJ, my version still holds realistic to logic.

The logic that even though it is a happy ending... there is also a strain of sadness. In knowing a good friend was lost. Han Solo died like a man. He took it like a man. And just by knowing that fact at the end of my version of ROTJ, I'm sure it will give everyone a more emotional and triumphant feel. A more realistic feel... that not everything is perfect, yet so many things really are.


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Leena?

(bursts out laughing)
VADER: Let me look on you with my own eyes...

LUKE: Dad, where are your eyebrows?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WO_S6UgkQk0
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Originally posted by: StarWarsIsUs


Luke won a sister. AND a lover. That is the greatness behind my version. He got the girl he wanted from when he first saved her in Episode IV. He also found his sister. A win-win-win situation. Much like in the actual ROTJ... but unlike the actual ROTJ, my version still holds realistic to logic.


How is your version more logical than the original. I'm not saying anything against yours, but that's a pretty tough argument.
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I may have my problem with ROTJ, but have you actually looked at what would be involved in an actual remake?

I think you should stick with fan fiction. Reserve a space for it next to the slash fiction featuring Obi Wan and Anakin.

As messed up as the PT is, you now go waaaaay against the PT.
There's good in the Original Trilogy, and it's worth fighting for.
"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."
http://www.myspace.com/harlock415
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There are points of Scruffy's that I agree with, and there are points of SWIU's that I also agree with. I only have a short opinion. If you're going to kill Han off, don't just let him die in carbonite. I wouldn't really call that dying like a man. It's just... opening a box and finding a dead body inside. And like Scruffy said, it makes the entire rescue operation pointless, so that the audience is in a very depressed and defeated state towards the beginning of the movie. Better to save your audience beating to later on. And it also reduces Han's role to absolutely nothing. Have him come out of carbonite alive and then kill him off at some other time after he's had a chance to make himself useful in this movie, by his role against the Death Star or in openly competing against Luke for Leia's affections. Not only does it make his death that much more painful (go to the trouble of rescuing him, and everything's okay, but now it's not), it keeps the rescue mission from being more pointless than it was in the real version.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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StarWarsIsUs wrote:



FIRST OFF. I am not George Lucas. Neither are you. It would be a fan-made "remake". I can't go sell this to millions of people and make it an official change to the canon. You're taking it far too literally, and far too painfully.

Okay, the way I'm reading that paragraph -- other than "literally" and "painfully," as is apparently my wont -- you have taken this discourse to a more personal, visceral level. I'll keep that in mind.

Established facts gets debunked all the time. Just because you survived a car crash doesn't mean you aren't going to die in the hospital at a later time. Just because the doctor says you will live, doesn't mean it's completely impossible for you to die the exact same evening. There was strong doubt in everyone at that time whether Han would live or not. And it made Leia's kiss to Han much more meaningful if he never got to see her again. In ROTJ, it is so cut-and-dry that it pretty much renders the sad ending of ESB assinine and pointless. There is no lasting effect of loss or slight darkness.

First of all, Han's survival wasn't just established, it was firmly established. There are the two points of evidence I mentioned in my proof above, and to those, I wish to add a third piece of evidence. The only reason Vader had Han frozen was to test the freezing apparatus's suitability for freezing Skywalker. He was worried that the facility was crude, and his subject would not survive the freezing process. He wanted Skywalker to survive his journey to the Emperor. Would Vader put someone in carbonite if there was even the slightest danger that, after surviving the freezing process, they would randomly die a few days later? Of course not; Vader fully expected anyone who survived the freezing process to be perfectly safe inside the carbonite.

As for "debunking" facts, capriciously "debunking" an established fact in a dramatic work is dangerous. The audience's trust in the storyteller will waver if he changes his mind on the big things for no real in-text reason. If the storyteller establishes that Han is alive with statements by several characters and story logic, then says, "Oh, he's dead after all," everything else the storyteller promised earlier in the story will be called into question.

And the ending of ESB wasn't sad. It was cathartic. It went so far as to visually depict Luke's external healing to evoke in the audience the idea that he had healed internally, as well. It's a real stretch to see most of the heroes escape the villain, reunite in a place of safety, have their injuries practically (and magically, to the audience) reversed, look upon a sight of singular beauty, hear stirring music -- and call it "sad."

Just how much time would you want to waste in the movie by having Han and Lando fight over a strained friendship? by losing Han, we lose an anti-hero who became a hero. That is tragic. It is disturbing. It makes for a more lasting effect after the movie is done.

Just because something is tragic and disturbing doesn't make it a good idea. But I'll keep in mind that you want the movie to be tragic and disturbing.

By the way: DID I SAY LANDO DIES RIGHT AWAY?!?!? No. Your argument about 'surviving sarlacc pits while you're slowely digested' is meaningless to this certain article I made. It's nitpicking and irrelevant. Those are the words that come to mind while reading your replies, my friend. "Nitpicking" and "irrelevant".

No, you didn't say he died "right away." You said he died "undoubtedly." That is what I was addressing. The dramatic purpose of the Sarlacc pit -- as opposed to, say, a firing squad or a guillotine -- is that you don't know what happens to the people who fall into it. There is, by design, some measure of doubt. And, if Jabba is to be believed, the people who fall into it probably survive. I guess someone could fall at an unfortunate angle and break their neck, or have a heart attack or some kind of allergic reaction to the Sarlacc's biochemistry, but those would only be the exceptions that test the rule.

I added Wookies. There are no Ewoks in this version. A primitive human settlement of a tiny size would most likely not be noticed by the Empire. Even on our planet it is not rare to find tiny settlements smack-dab in the middle of Nowhere Central. The village probably wouldn't know (or care) about the Death Star construction. Your comments really piss me off, dude. They really piss me off.

No, we are actually pretty good at locating settlements smack-dab in the middle of Nowhere Central. We have satellites and things now. In fact, we've had them for about fifty years. The Empire has been around for 25,000 years. (Even if you ignore everything from the EU and Obi-wan's statement about a thousand generations of Jedi, we know that the culture under Imperial rule has had interstellar space travel for at least a thousand years.) That's more than enough time for them to develop surveillance technology on par with ours, and they'd certainly deploy such technology in order to protect a secret military installation.

What you've done is taken one of the things that makes RotJ unbelievable and compounded the error. In the real movie, the Empire is apparently unaware of or unconcerned by primitive aliens constructing large traps and amassing next to their power generator. They didn't clear fields of fire, build fighting positions, designate exclusion zones, etc. But we can rationalize this (and many EU authors have) by saying that the Imperial military is biased against non-humans, seeing them as less of a threat. Aliens are evidently not considered fit for service in the Imperial military, so it's easy to imagine the Empire overlooking an alien threat. When you add a human settlement in your notional movie, we cannot use this rationalization, and are forced to conclude that the Empire's grand secret weapon was constructed under less security than Return of the Jedi itself.

After finding the exact location of Jabba's hideout they came back to get Luke and Leia. Like they probably (we never know for sure) did in the real ROTJ movie. They needed sleep though. They waited until they got some sleep before all journeying back to Jabba's hideout. But Leia decided to leave early because she was desperate. By 'night' I obviously mean when they all were resting and sleeping.

That's all great, but doesn't explain why Leia would still be on the Medical Frigate after Luke's operation was done. I guess she might've been visiting the Joes, or talking to a shrink. Maybe they admitted her under something like "combat stress" and she meekly accepted. Other than that, she had no business on a hospital ship. Personally, I think she (and the Alliance) would prefer that she be in a better defended place as soon as Luke's hand was working.

Of course, maybe Leia became completely useless as soon as the funding from Alderaan dried up and her presence at Echo Base was merely tolerated by General Rieekan. Maybe she bums a ride on any Rebel spaceship that'll host her. But I digress.

Maybe they don't use full hyperdrive this time. Maybe it had an Imperial tracking device attached to it.


We've already seen the tracking device trick, too. I guess maybe the Falcon would slow down enough for enemies to track her; maybe Lando flies the "fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy" more conservatively than Han. But in order to be followed, the Empire would have to know where the Falcon was before it made the jump to lightspeed, or intercept it in transit (something we've never seen in the films, and requires specialized technology in the EU). That just pushes the problem of the Empire locating the Falcon back. Again, this is something their best forces, under the direct control of the highest echelons of command, were unable to do for a number of years. What has changed to make the Empire so good at Falcon hunting?

This is sort of like something Lucas tried in an early script for Revenge of the Sith. Imperial agents rather easily captured Luke on Tatooine, as a sort of segue between the Tatooine segment and the Had Abaddon segment. Fortunately, Lucas was wise enough to drop that; he realized that the Rebel Alliance, and our heroes especially, had been characterized as supremely elusive in episodes IV and V, and there was no reason to change that for episode VI.

Here is another example of you nitpicking. Who's to say they didn't BREAK THEIR NECKS WHILE FALLING INTO THE PIT? NO ONE KNOWS WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENS TO THEM, JUST THAT THEY PROBABLY DO INDEED DIE.


Well, "probably" is different than "undoubtedly," so I guess you're about 33% of the way to my position. (The other two thirds comprises acceptance of Jabba's statements, consistent with his demonstrated predilection for torture; and that bit about the dramatic utility of the Sarlacc as written for sequels.)

Here is an example so you can maybe understand. I sincerely hopes this helps you.

Leia: Tell them we want to make peace. Tell them we need their help.

Chewie: *turns to Wookies and growls stuff.*

I sincerely hope that helps you understand where I was coming from. -_-


Here is a counter-example:

Wookie Chief: Hraawwwn!

Leia: Chewie, what did he say?

Chewie: Hraawwwn!

Leia: Damn, I knew I should've brought Threepio.

Please. Do not insult yourself. Do not insult me, either. You said "elegantly resolved a love triangle by turning it into classic comedy"...... Okay. There are many things wrong with what you said. If you were that much of an 'elegant' thinker, you would have been able to formulate the answers to your own questions; but instead, I have to answer them for you. There is nothing wrong with that... but... you get my meaning.


Okay, if there's many things wrong with what I've said, let's hear 'em. All I see here is insults, and they're really funny if I imagine you saying them aloud with See Threpio's voice. "If you get my meaning, sir."

She is strong in the Force just as Luke was. Raised in a primitive village, the Force did not withold itself from Leena.


So now her village was primitive, too? And she flies an X-wing against an Imperial superweapon? Sounds like something out of an L. Ron Hubbard novel. You can call this thing Battlefield Endor when you finish it.

Since when does the Force "withhold" itself from people? The PT/OR Jedi made their headquarters on the most cosmopolitan planet in the galaxy, there was nothing primitive about them, and they were strong in the Force. Vader and Palpatine enjoyed every technological benefit available to men in their position, and they were strong in the Force. There's no evidence that the Force has some sort of culturally regressive bias, or that it's even aware of relative cultural development. Nor is there any evidence that the Force is sentient enough to withhold itself from the unworthy.

The closest we've got to the Force choosing who can wield it is the Force balancing itself by creating a "Chosen One" to wipe out the lightsiders when they vastly outnumbered the darksiders -- and even that is veiled by vague Jedi eschatology and bias. But that's from the prequels, so can be safely ignored here on OriginalTrilogy.com, I think.

Now, perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but you're using Leena's advantage in the Force to respond to my incredulity over her ability to fly an X-wing. The Force may be powerful enough to let a "primitive" person fly an X-wing into battle, but that kind of extremely technical instinct is far beyond anything we've seen Force-users do to date. Luke had years of flying experience before he flew Red 5, and even then, he was only given the fighter in the gravest do-or-die emergency. The attack on the Death Star II was well-planned, and it's doubtful they had spare X-wings sitting around that they'd loan out to some primitive without a single hour of flight time.

I'm sure you want to come back with something like, "Well, maybe one of the X-wing pilots got the flu or lost his glasses, WE DON'T KNOW!!!" And that's a perfectly possible story development. But it's so unlikely as to beggar belief.

Luke didn't lose a father. His father was already long lost to evil. He gained him back by convincing him to be non-evil. And now his father's spirit can be with him forever.


That's lovely. But his father died. His ghost showed up, briefly, with no promise to return or be available when needed or desired. I never assumed Anakin was back "forever," and neither did the EU writers. The idea of him hanging around forever is a bit too sweet for me. I prefer the original version with the majority interpretation: Luke saves his father, only to lose him moments later. It makes Vader's story the story of an anti-hero who became a hero. It makes Vader's final words much more meaningful if he can never speak to his son again. It's disturbing and tragic.

Luke won a sister. AND a lover. That is the greatness behind my version. He got the girl he wanted from when he first saved her in Episode IV. He also found his sister. A win-win-win situation. Much like in the actual ROTJ... but unlike the actual ROTJ, my version still holds realistic to logic.

The logic that even though it is a happy ending... there is also a strain of sadness. In knowing a good friend was lost. Han Solo died like a man. He took it like a man. And just by knowing that fact at the end of my version of ROTJ, I'm sure it will give everyone a more emotional and triumphant feel. A more realistic feel... that not everything is perfect, yet so many things really are.


I thought you liked things being disturbing and tragic? A win-win-win situation isn't disturbing or tragic. And you'll have to elaborate on how your version is more realistic or logical than the real one, because I don't see the realism or logic in killing Han, in his sleep, when he's in the safest position he enjoyed throughout the whole trilogy, and touting it as an example of machismo. You can even insult me again, tell me again how stupid I am for not being able to answer my own questions. I really do want to know what realism and logic look like in your world.

Finally, the idea of "winning" a lover, as if Luke was in some sort of contest and the prize was sex with his unrequited crush, is just wrong.
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