Would it have been possible to make the PT (in the late 90's / early 00's) in a way that synced up with the OOT?

All of this talk of practical vs cgi in the Episode VII thread got me thinking about a question that comes to my mind every now and then.

In an alternate universe where the SE never happened, do you think the PT could've been made in a way that synced up seamlessly with the OOT?

Also, do you think it's possible to watch the actual PT in conjunction with the OOT?

Not just from an effects perspective, but from a writing perspective I wonder this as well.  

Yeah. But it would still show Anakin become Darth Vader. Because that's what prequels are for. You would still need to watch 4-5-6-1-2-3 if you wanted surprises.

Fang Zei said:

All of this talk of practical vs cgi in the Episode VII thread got me thinking about a question that comes to my mind every now and then.

In an alternate universe where the SE never happened, do you think the PT could've been made in a way that synced up seamlessly with the OOT?

Also, do you think it's possible to watch the actual PT in conjunction with the OOT?

I believe that the PT could have been made to sync up with the OT, as its all a matter of perspective when it comes to CGI and what a director can do.

The big difference between the PT & OT is the locations.  You have real locations in the OT (Tatooine, Hoth, Endor), and CGI locations in the PT (Geonosis, Kamino, Mustafar).  The trilogies will NEVER match on this alone, because they look like 2 different movie franchises.

Lucas said in the AOTC commentary during the Kamino sequence that they could have build a huge model of places like Kamino, but it would just cost more.  So he COULD do it, but by financing his own movie, he decided to do it the cheaper way.

I really wish Lucas had made the PT before 1993 (Jurassic Park was the turning point in CGI), and he would have been forced to use real locations, and it would have synced right up with the OT.  Instead we have 2 trilogies that look nothing alike.

DominicCobb said:

Yeah. But it would still show Anakin become Darth Vader. Because that's what prequels are for. You would still need to watch 4-5-6-1-2-3 if you wanted surprises.

 I always thought that if Lucas got really creative, he could have made 1-2-3 that fit right into 4-5-6, so the PT would not have spoiled the OT for a new fan watching them in order.

Lucas could have had Anakin never be named Darth Vader by Palpatine, and when he is lying there on Mustafar burning the first time viewer thinks he is dead.  Then Lucas would not show the building of Darth Vader in Episode III, so when it comes to Episode IV, you just think this is a new villain who is chasing down Princess Leia, the same way Count Dooku was a new villain in Episode II.

Then when Darth Vader reveals himself in Episode V, the 1-6 viewer would be just as suprised as we were because he does not know that Anakin is Darth Vader, he just thinks Darth Vader is a jedi who killed Luke's dad.

There are many other details that I would have to go through the movies to make sure they jive up with 4-6.  You wouldnt have Owen/Beru in the PT, or Anakin's last name would not be Skywalker, because then it would be obvious. 

Lucas essentially created the PT to be watched after the OT now, because there are so many things that are nods to the OT when you're watching the PT, but he could have written it as a linear story if he really took the time.

Ugh, to me, that'd just be pointless. If I'm not mistaken, the whole point of the prequels is to show how Anakin became Darth Vader. To not show that would have been infuriating (at least to me).

Perhaps I should clarify my original questions.

I'm not so much talking about syncing up in terms of story, but merely in terms of looking/sounding of a whole with the OOT.

But this kind of leads me to my other question: does it really matter? Does the fact that some of the environments in the PT are cg whereas even the most fantastical locales of the OOT (like Bespin) are still "analog" actually matter?

In a world without the SE, would it matter that the PT is as cg-filled as it is?

DominicCobb said:

Yeah. But it would still show Anakin become Darth Vader. Because that's what prequels are for. You would still need to watch 4-5-6-1-2-3 if you wanted surprises.

I don't agree with this assumption.

Episodes 1 to 3 should have been earlier episodes set at that time thus maintaining the surprise if you watch them in number order.

We didn't need to see Anakin become Vader on screen we know this by Episode 6 anyway.

We didn't need to see Yoda either.

The plot should have focused on new characters who we didn't know the fate of and all that Anakin stuff should be vaguely going on in the background.

If any pre-doomed Skywalker clan members needed to be more centre stage it should have been Owen, Beru and Luke's mother not Anakin.

A way to do the fall of Anakin without spoiling the surprise in the OT is to have him become a double agent of sorts. Here's what I mean:

Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi are friends during the first movie. In it, the Republic falls during the Clone Wars and the Empire is formed. We learn details like the fact that Obi-Wan has had previous apprentices (but they are not named). One of Obi-Wan's former apprentices joins the Empire, so we suspect that he is Darth Vader until Episode V. Anakin marries a woman and she becomes pregnant.

In the second installment, Anakin's darkness is hinted at. About halfway through the movie, we discover that someone named Darth Vader is rising up through the ranks of the Imperial Army (or something of the sort). When we get to see Darth Vader, he is cloaked and hooded with his face hidden, so we don't find out who he really is. Anakin's darkness is hinted at throughout the movie (but is never so obvious that we can readily connect Darth Vader with Anakin). Latish in the movie, we see a hooded figure kneeling before a hologram, but we can't see the face of the person in the hologram (since he is the Emperor, and his reveal would be spoiled if his face was shown). We can't see the face of the hooded figure, and his name is not given, but he is instructed to kill Anakin Skywalker. Then comes the volcano battle. Anakin is defeated and killed (or so we are led to believe) by the hooded figure, who is masked throughout the whole thing. The movie ends.

In the third movie, Darth Vader is still hooded and cloaked the same way as before, but he now has a mask that is reminiscent of the mask we see in the OT. Darth Vader begins hunting down the remnants of the Jedi order. At some point, he duels Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan manages to dismember Darth Vader's right arm and escape. He then visits Anakin's wife on Alderaan, who has given birth since the first movie. She entrusts Obi-Wan with the care of her son (she has had twins and doesn't want to give them both up, but we don't learn this until ROTJ). Obi-Wan is by this point the last of the Jedi  besides his former master, whom we next see Obi-Wan speaking to on a swamp planet, though his master is hidden from sight. Obi-Wan tells him that Darth Vader's fighting style is familiar. His old master tells him to hide away on a remote planet until the time is right. We see a spaceship heading towards a desert planet and the movie ends.

It could have been done, it just wasn't....

To add to that:

We see C-3PO only briefly on Alderaan and R2-D2 doesn't make an appearance at all, to avoid universe shrinkage as much as we can.

Tyrphanax said:

RicOlie_2 said:

It could have been done, it just wasn't....

I think this is the main point to be made here; I don't know how exactly it could have followed the PT storyline we have now (your synopsis was pretty great, Ric), but I feel like it could have been done given the right talent and the right mindset.

I do feel like it would be weird without the droids, though...

The droids would have been missed, since they were a big part of the dynamic of Star Wars. Another droid duo (or maybe trio, for variety) could have replaced them. Some of the atmosphere of the OT would have been impossible to reproduce in the PT without copying the OT too much. It still could have been made to be more in line with the OT in terms of visuals.

Fang Zei said:

Perhaps I should clarify my original questions.

I'm not so much talking about syncing up in terms of story, but merely in terms of looking/sounding of a whole with the OOT.

But this kind of leads me to my other question: does it really matter? Does the fact that some of the environments in the PT are cg whereas even the most fantastical locales of the OOT (like Bespin) are still "analog" actually matter?

In a world without the SE, would it matter that the PT is as cg-filled as it is?

I feel like I addressed the first part of this in my first post fairly well; as for the second part, I'm almost not sure if it does matter.

I think the vast majority of what's wrong with the PT is story-related, and I feel like we could have ignored its over-reliance on CGI if it had a story that was on-par with the OT. I think the majority of us would have just shrugged it off as the progression of technology (which made heavy CGI use in the PT almost inevitable, SE or no).

If the Special Editions failed, I feel like the PT probably would never have happened.

 I agree. The bad CGI in the PT doesn't bother me at all (in fact, I wouldn't know it was bad were it not for the criticism it gets here). A lot of the poorly done effects (not that there are many) in the OT bug me more. It is possible I haven't noticed the bad CGI in the PT because I've only seen AOTR in HD though...

LOL

Ever since I've seen AOTR, I have almost consistently been using "AOTR" instead of "AOTC" unintentionally. :P

RicOlie_2 said:

We can't see the face of the hooded figure, and his name is not given, but he is instructed to kill Anakin Skywalker. Then comes the volcano battle. Anakin is defeated and killed (or so we are led to believe) by the hooded figure, who is masked throughout the whole thing. The movie ends.

In the third movie, Darth Vader is still hooded and cloaked the same way as before, but he now has a mask that is reminiscent of the mask we see in the OT.

Interesting, but what happened to Not-Vader?

Maybe a carefully-worded speech in Part 3. On the surface, Vader is giving Ben a villainous rant about how he turned to the dark side to get revenge on the assassin who maimed him - the subtext being that Anakin got better and killed Not-Vader between movies.

Then there's just the sudden armor to explain... maybe Not-Vader gradually becomes more Vader-like in each movie?

Yeah, it isn't perfect, but I'm pretty sure it would be possible to work around that.

Perhaps the Emperor could have several Dark Jedi, or something of the sort, under his command, all of them wearing masks that are somewhat like the OT Vader mask. Vader is just another one of them at first, but over time he surpasses them. The one remaining one (besides Vader) is told to kill Skywalker (since the Emperor either doesn't know that Vader and Skywalker are the same person, or he wants a way to eliminate Vader without people knowing that he did it). In the battle, Anakin falls over the edge of a cliff, into the lava pit (though he of course actually lands beside it, as we can deduce from his survival, which we learn about in Episode V).

In the third movie, we see Vader in the same mask that the masked warrior in ep. II, and the other masked Dark Jedi were wearing. He kills the man who had actually fought Skywalker--with an excuse besides revenge, perhaps. Maybe the two of them had not met for some time (or so they thought). The Dark Jedi taunts Vader about some new injuries he appears to have sustained, and mocks Vader's need to use a breathing apparatus like a dying old man. Vader says something about being injured on Mustafar (as I shall conveniently call the planet on which the volcano battle took place), then strikes the Dark Jedi down. He later dons a more customized mask that looks more like that of OT Vader. The rest proceeds as previously described.

I'm sure there are flaws in that too, but with minor tweaks, I think my proposed storyline would have worked without spoiling the OT for first-time viewers.

My answer to the thread's question: yes. If you want it bad enough, if you have the money to get it done, and it doesn't violate the laws of man, physics, or God(s), then it can be done. 

DominicCobb said:

Ugh, to me, that'd just be pointless. If I'm not mistaken, the whole point of the prequels is to show how Anakin became Darth Vader. To not show that would have been infuriating (at least to me).

 I agree with you that the Prequels are meant to be seen after the Originals, and there are alot of PT spoiler plot points that should be in the PT movies.

I was just saying if Lucas is going to go around and say the movies should be watched 1-6 (like he says at the end of ROTS DVD Commentary), then he should have written them in a linear way!

RicOlie_2 said:

Yeah, it isn't perfect, but I'm pretty sure it would be possible to work around that.

Perhaps the Emperor could have several Dark Jedi, or something of the sort, under his command, all of them wearing masks that are somewhat like the OT Vader mask. Vader is just another one of them at first, but over time he surpasses them. The one remaining one (besides Vader) is told to kill Skywalker (since the Emperor either doesn't know that Vader and Skywalker are the same person, or he wants a way to eliminate Vader without people knowing that he did it). In the battle, Anakin falls over the edge of a cliff, into the lava pit (though he of course actually lands beside it, as we can deduce from his survival, which we learn about in Episode V).

In the third movie, we see Vader in the same mask that the masked warrior in ep. II, and the other masked Dark Jedi were wearing. He kills the man who had actually fought Skywalker--with an excuse besides revenge, perhaps. Maybe the two of them had not met for some time (or so they thought). The Dark Jedi taunts Vader about some new injuries he appears to have sustained, and mocks Vader's need to use a breathing apparatus like a dying old man. Vader says something about being injured on Mustafar (as I shall conveniently call the planet on which the volcano battle took place), then strikes the Dark Jedi down. He later dons a more customized mask that looks more like that of OT Vader. The rest proceeds as previously described.

I'm sure there are flaws in that too, but with minor tweaks, I think my proposed storyline would have worked without spoiling the OT for first-time viewers.

 
A prototype Darth Vader mask as an Imperial Sith uniform would have been a really cool concept.  That would have given additional depth to the cave scene as well as the line in ANH about Vader being the last of that old religion.  

How it should be written also depends on how much you want someone watching it 1-6 to feel when Obi-Wan recounts Anakin's death.  

"A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force."

 Do you want people to realize Obi-Wan's not telling the truth at that point & go "wait a minute, Obi-Wan never had a pupil named Darth Vader," or do you want people to be completely fooled up until the end of episode V?

If so, in the first scene of Episode I we see a young man named Darth Vader dueling a man in a proto-Vader mask and defeating him. Dialogue could reveal that both of them were former apprentices of Obi-Wan's.  We see the victorious dark Jedi ask a lesser villain to now call him Darth Vader, the name of the first Jedi he struck down (which would then establish that as a Sith tradition)

Obi-Wan could elect to tell Anakin about the history of his former pupil Darth Vader & 

You then presumably see Anakin killed by Vader at the end of Episode II & Obi-Wan sadly retrieves his lightsaber.  Unbeknownst to the viewer, Vader takes Anakin to the emperor where he is trained in the dark side & finishes his training by killing Darth Vader.  

At the end of Episode III, Obi-Wan defeats Vader & Obi-Wan pulls his mask off but the camera cuts so that the viewer can't see the face & then says something that regretfully acknowledges that the man he defeated in combat was is pupil.  In a gritty wheeze he asks Obi-Wan to destroy him and take his name as the new Dark Lord but Obi-Wan refuses & asks that he instead remember his old name & he replies that name has no meaning to him, at which point Obi-Wan leaves.    

Maybe that's a bit redundant with the three pupil thing, but it works insofar as it doesn't reveal to the audience who Vader is until he tells Luke he is his father.  

In my scenario, the viewer doesn't find out about Darth Vader being Luke's father until ESB either. The multiple masked Sith Lords lead the viewer to believe that Darth Vader was always one of them and Anakin is a different person (since we see him duel one of the masked Sith). The concept of a Sith Lord taking the name of the first Jedi he kills is very interesting though. Maybe that could be worked into my synopsis as well.

In my synopsis, I did establish that Obi-Wan had had other pupils, and the viewer would find out that one turned to the Dark Side. In Episode IV, the viewer would just assume that Darth Vader was in fact that former apprentice, though in reality there was another as well.

An additional point: Obi-Wan would adopt the name "Ben" once the Empire started hunting down Jedi, to make his statement in ANH make sense.